Support NeoGAF

[seanoff]

Let me ask you this:

What if this was about Gamergate?

what does gamergate have to do with anything? seriously.

it has been laid out in the thread by a couple of people why AFL fans don't like him most of it not to do with the colour of his skin.

if i thought the majority were being racist i'd be on the West Coast board on bigfooty laying into them.

but West Coast Eagles supporters are like Philadelphia Eagles they will boo anything not in team colours, santa, easter bunnies, etc. I wouldn't read a lot into them booing someone or something. that's there natural state. (maybe its an Eagles mascot thing)

i played this sort of footy and other sports with guys that have been voted MVP in 3 or 4 GFs. (Norm Smith Medallists for you aussies), and many other highly credentialed indigenous footballers. I have a more than reasonable understanding of them and their circumstances having grown up with them.

I'd be at the front of the line fighting this if i thought is was predominantly racist. i don't think it is. I think like Jobe Watson and the umpires, this is mostly a football matter where someone has thrown the "it must be racist because he is black" thing out there and it has exploded.

there will be some racists booing him because of his colour. I'd prefer everyone else shut up to out those idiots. but as has been said australians don't take kindly to being told what they are thinking and what they should do. esp when it comes to footy.

 

[Jintor]

Its now hit a point where we hope it either goes away naturally, or it ends REALLY badly. The third alternative is that Goodes falls on his sword and retires over it.

fuck that

 

[legend166]

Its way beyond that point now because the genuine racists have thrown their collective weight behind it. There's not a great deal anyone can do other than hope it goes away.

If the media stops giving it air time it should go away like it eventually did with Jobe Watson.

It's been happening for over well over a year. You can find articles about it going back to May last year.

I think I'm in a position to know this - there's probably no one else here who watches every single game Goodes plays in.

It's besides the point anyway - why should he just sit and take it? Why is it more incumbent on him than on the people that boo to just maybe stop booing?

Just for some further background on the whole thing, the 13 year old girl wasn't the first time Goodes had been abused that way on the field. Here's a story from 2008 about an incident in 2002

http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/afl/goodes-victim-of-race-hate/story-e6frg1xu-1111115718325

DUAL Brownlow medallist Adam Goodes has revealed he was racially abused during an AFL game as recently as 2002.

The Sydney star says he was called "a f------ monkey-looking c---" by a high-profile opponent during a game at the SCG.

He said the player, whom he refuses to identify, apologised during the resultant AFL mediation process, but he (Goodes) was so angry at the time he could "barely speak to him".

"I was shocked because he is one of the highest-profile players in football, held up as a role model," Goodes said.

"I reported the incident; it took a while for it to sink in and, by the time the player - who admitted his actions - called me to apologise, as per the first phase of mediation, I was so angry I could barely speak to him. Actually, I blasted him for 15 minutes."

 

[Dryk]

True on the whole, but a booing campaign targeted at one player is a different story.

The booing at the end of the Showdown was pretty disgusting too. They say it was directed at the umpires but I don't care, everyone should've kept quiet.

 

[Arksy]

Its now hit a point where we hope it either goes away naturally, or it ends REALLY badly. The third alternative is that Goodes falls on his sword and retires over it.

Absolutely fucking not. That would be the WORST outcome.

 

[Fredescu]

Its now hit a point where we hope it either goes away naturally, or it ends REALLY badly. The third alternative is that Goodes falls on his sword and retires over it.

The logical end that I see is the AFL, and others like NRL and ALeague, coming down hard on racism in crowds. This won't help the racism in broader society, and it might get a little ugly in the process, but it's already pretty ugly now..

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

fuck that

What else can be done about it though?

It's been happening for over well over a year. You can find articles about it going back to May last year.

I think I'm in a position to know this - there's probably no one else here who watches every single game Goodes plays in.

It's besides the point anyway - why should he just sit and take it? Why is it more incumbent on him than on the people that boo to just maybe stop booing?

Just for some further background on the whole thing, the 13 year old girl wasn't the first time Goodes had been abused that way on the field. Here's a story from 2008 about an incident in 2002

http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/afl/goodes-victim-of-race-hate/story-e6frg1xu-1111115718325

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying he should sit there and take it. But what can you do about booing short of outlawing it?

Absolutely fucking not. That would be the WORST outcome.

As above, I'm not sure how you stop thousands of people booing.

 

[H.Protagonist]

No one is saying Ape isn't a racist slur. But divisive part of the origins of this issue is whether girl knew she was being a racist. She MAY have obviously. But she also might not have. My clearly poorly worded post was suggesting that it was possible the girl came to the point of deciding to call him an ape for other reasons.

Adam acknowledge that in all likelihood she had no clue she was using a racial slur and that her upbringing is most likely a source.

By that point though, the damage was done.

Those who just don't like Adam Goodes had ammo, the racists had ammo, and then they were given more over the following 12 months.

Its now hit a point where we hope it either goes away naturally, or it ends REALLY badly. The third alternative is that Goodes falls on his sword and retires over it.

Why does it have to go away, though? Isn't this a good conversation to be had? Showing solidarity with Goodes as many people and players have sends a good message about standing up to and condemning racism. And given some of the posts in this thread, it seems like its a message worth repeating. Not every outcome of this has to be negative.

 

[jambo]

Why does it have to go away, though? Isn't this a good conversation to be had? Showing solidarity with Goodes as many people and players have sends a good message about standing up to and condemning racism. And given some of the posts in this thread, it seems like its a message worth repeating. Not every outcome of this has to be negative.

A large chunk of Australia really doesn't want to deal with our underlying racism.

 

[bomma_man]

What else can be done about it though?



Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying he should sit there and take it. But what can you do about booing short of outlawing it?



As above, I'm not sure how you stop thousands of people booing.

It sends a terrible message

 

[seanoff]

It's been happening for over well over a year. You can find articles about it going back to May last year.

I think I'm in a position to know this - there's probably no one else here who watches every single game Goodes plays in.

It's besides the point anyway - why should he just sit and take it? Why is it more incumbent on him than on the people that boo to just maybe stop booing?

so point me to your posts here or on bigfooty supporting Jobe Watson who copped this level of booing.

please.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

so these guys are like the roma to europeans

interesting. wonder why there isn't more news about this? kinda like the roma as well. both groups seem swept under the carpet by their respective countries. is there even a dialog happening? what a shame.

 

[PhantomZone]

I'd be at the front of the line fighting this if i thought is was predominantly racist. i don't think it is. I think like Jobe Watson and the umpires, this is mostly a football matter where someone has thrown the "it must be racist because he is black" thing out there and it has exploded.

there will be some racists booing him because of his colour. I'd prefer everyone else shut up to out those idiots. but as has been said australians don't take kindly to being told what they are thinking and what they should do. esp when it comes to footy.

Correct!

It's besides the point anyway - why should he just sit and take it? Why is it more incumbent on him than on the people that boo to just maybe stop booing?

Because you're not going to get people to stop booing, booing is a natural part of the game. You'd have to ban booing from happening (wouldn't rule it out) but Gillion McLaughlin is too stupid (or smart?) to alienate the entire football audience that are a key reason for the AFL making $$$$$$$$$$$.

 

[Fredescu]

Isn't this a good conversation to be had?

It is, but it's a painful one all the same. For some reason a lot of Australians like to think of themselves as easy going, but they (we) get so defensive when it comes to talking about systemic racism.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

Why does it have to go away, though? Isn't this a good conversation to be had? Showing solidarity with Goodes as many people and players have sends a good message about standing up to and condemning racism. And given some of the posts in this thread, it seems like its a message worth repeating. Not every outcome of this has to be negative.

I'll be watching the Richmond game. Hardwick really stood up to the plate on this.

 

[bomma_man]

Why the fuck are you comparing him to jobe Watson? Is calling out a racist jibe as bad as taking illegal supplements?

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

A large chunk of Australia really doesn't want to deal with our underlying racism.

I grew up dealing with racism. With a Greek background, I know what it can be like. Obviously, the scenarios between immigrants and Aborigines aren't the Same, but dont assume id want to sweep true racism under the rug.

 

[H.Protagonist]

A large chunk of Australia really doesn't want to deal with our underlying racism.

That's definitely the impression I'm getting here and speaking to people in Melb. :/ They want Goodes to stop 'making a fuss' or they want him to 'suck it up.' They think he's 'dividing' Australia by highlighting it. I'm told I'm oversensitive as an America and I'm unfairly attributing what's gone down against Goodes as racism. Even if you didn't think it was racism, why wouldn't you just say, 'You know, I could see how Goodes/others might take it that way. What can I/we do to make things better in a general sense?' It's bizarre to me that so many Australians just want it to disappear or defend it to the death.

 

[Fredescu]

it has been laid out in the thread by a couple of people why AFL fans don't like him most of it not to do with the colour of his skin.

Can you lay it out again then? Because most of the justifications I've seen have been based on lies, taking quotes out of context, and opinions about free kicks that aren't backed up by his stats. "He acts superior in media interviews" is out and out racism fwiw, so we can rule that one out.

Because you're not going to get people to stop booing, booing is a natural part of the game. You'd have to ban booing from happening

You don't have to ban booing across the board at all. There are way more creative solutions than that. It's defeatist to say "oh well, the only solution is something that is literally impossible so lets just put up with it".

 

[pupcoffee]

It is, but it's a painful one all the same. For some reason a lot of Australians like to think of themselves as easy going, but they (we) get so defensive when it comes to talking about systemic racism.

I've been thinking about this all day, now.

And it's really weird. It's like the typical white Aussie brain has adopted both racism-culture and anti-racism culture at once.

Maybe the growth of anti-racism in the culture and in our brains doesn't actually erase racism, it just adds a big spoonful of anti-racism to go along with the racism to leave the person paradoxic and confusing. Maybe simply calling them "racist" literally is 50% of the picture, I don't know. I just think that many racist minds have definitely been affected by the "I'm not racist, but more to the point, I don't want to be," mentality. The guy who tried to pull the gorilla stuff... he really believed he wasn't racist, and you can tell he really doesn't want to be. It's just really sad to me and I hope the dude can get help, because at heart there is some hope in him, I think.

 

[AxeMan]

That's definitely the impression I'm getting here and speaking to people in Melb. :/ They want Goodes to stop 'making a fuss' or they want him to 'suck it up.' They think he's 'dividing' Australia by highlighting it. I'm told I'm oversensitive as an America and I'm unfairly attributing what's gone down against Goodes as racism. Even if you didn't think it was racism, why wouldn't you just say, 'You know, I could see how Goodes/others might take it that way. What can I/we do to make things better in a general sense?' It's bizarre to me that so many Australians just want it to disappear or defend it to the death.

I'm with you on the bolded but then how do you do that practically?
Do you say you can't boo Goodes at all? Obviously that's not a solution
Do you ban booing at all? Obviously that's not a solution

 

[H.Protagonist]

It is, but it's a painful one all the same. For some reason a lot of Australians like to think of themselves as easy going, but they (we) get so defensive when it comes to talking about systemic racism.

Yeah, that's what it seems like. I hope people can see the greater goal out of all of this and try and fix the problem instead of ignoring it. Or even just accept there's a problem?

I'll be watching the Richmond game. Hardwick really stood up to the plate on this.

I really thought it was an awesome gesture for them to do that. I'm a Crows supporter overall, but I know who I'll be rooting for that game.

 

[Arksy]

That's definitely the impression I'm getting here and speaking to people in Melb. :/ They want Goodes to stop 'making a fuss' or they want him to 'suck it up.' They think he's 'dividing' Australia by highlighting it. I'm told I'm oversensitive as an America and I'm unfairly attributing what's gone down against Goodes as racism. Even if you didn't think it was racism, why wouldn't you just say, 'You know, I could see how Goodes/others might take it that way. What can I/we do to make things better in a general sense?' It's bizarre to me that so many Australians just want it to disappear or defend it to the death.

Americans are pretty good about talking about things and airing grievances. It sometimes appears to us like a mess and we sometimes only hear about the crazies but there's a lot of good conversation going on about race in the states that has sorely been lacking here in Australia.

 

[Least100Seraphs]

It's defeatist to say "oh well, the only solution is something that is literally impossible so lets just put up with it".

Which is a garbage response anyway, because there's only one person that is expected to put up with it in that situation.

 

[Yrael]

That's the thing I really don't get. The entire culture of sport is very close to a war culture. Taunting, battle cries, celebratory dances, they're all normal and usually accepted.

Seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjCsRhX47UE

Yeah to all non-australians, this video is basically all bs, charlie pickering is a known wackjob.

This is obviously not a good look for australia having all these untrue racist labels thrown around, but the ape thing wasnt racist, Goodes actually does look like an ape in the same way sarah jessica parker looks like a horse, not racism, just analysis of their similar facial structures. see pics
-

I know the poster has been banned for this, but wow, this is some real fuckery.

 

[PhantomZone]

Why the fuck are you comparing him to jobe Watson? Is calling out a racist jibe as bad as taking illegal supplements?

Two different things

The stadium staff are pretty good at removing those that shout out racist jibes. It's going to get seriously messy now with people pointing out others that "boo". You can't say "boo" is being racist :-/.

 

[H.Protagonist]

I'm with you on the bolded but then how do you do that practically?
Do you say you can't boo Goodes at all? Obviously that's not a solution
Do you ban booing at all? Obviously that's not a solution

That's a thought I'd want all the fans booing to consider, and the more it's brought up in the news and the more they see people coming out in support of Goodes, the more it should be on their mind as poor form in general. They say it's not racist, right? So why not just turn their boos into cheers for their own team? Is booing so essential to their support that they can't go a game without it? Channel your passion better. I also hate to agree with Shorten on things, but he was right when he said it sets a bad example for the kids there and watching. If the general call for better behavior doesn't strike a cord, maybe they can see the ugliness they're teaching their kids.

 

[remz]

I'm with you on the bolded but then how do you do that practically?
Do you say you can't boo Goodes at all? Obviously that's not a solution
Do you ban booing at all? Obviously that's not a solution

I don't know about you man but I think it's pretty easy to stop booing someone. I used to boo when I was a little kid but as an adult, when I go to the footy I don't bother, I just cheer, generally. Better vibes.

 

[Fredescu]

Maybe simply calling them "racist" really is inaccurate, I don't know.

When it's so embedded in a culture you're proud of, it can be hard when someone like Goodes or Stan Grant* points out what a shit life they've had, especially when those two in particular went on to lead successful lives. From there comes the silencing tactic of "your rich and successful, you're the bully and we're the victims". Leaving no one of course to speak for the not so rich and successful to talk about the injustices of the NT intervention, or the record levels of indigenous suicide, or little black boys getting run over by white people on drugs, the white people getting a slap on the wrist, and the family of the black victim getting lectured by the judge in court, and so on.

A lot of Australians have this conception about Australia that is very nice but just isn't real. Part of that is the naive idea that the only kind of racism is being personally rude to someone that looks different from you. Systemic racism is a tough concept for a lot of people to get, but it's really the worst kind.


*Stan Grant article: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...des-feels-every-indigenous-person-has-felt-it

 

[AxeMan]

That's a thought I'd want all the fans booing to consider, and the more it's brought up in the news and the more they see people coming out in support of Goodes, the more it should be on their mind as poor form in general. They say it's not racist, right? So why not just turn their boos into cheers for their own team? Is booing so essential to their support that they can't go a game without it? Channel your passion better. I also hate to agree with Shorten on things, but he was right when he said it sets a bad example for the kids there and watching. If the general call for better behavior doesn't strike a cord, maybe they can see the ugliness they're teaching their kids.

I don't know about you man but I think it's pretty easy to stop booing someone. I used to boo when I was a little kid but as an adult, when I go to the footy I don't bother, I just cheer, generally.

As someone who pretty much just sits there quietly stressed while watching my team I can still recognize that some like to cheer and hurl abuse.

Am I allowed to tell Hawkins that I think he ate too many pies but I can't boo him when lining up for goal?

Players abuse opposition players as well - should that be stopped?

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I've been thinking about this all day, now.

And it's really weird. It's like the typical white Aussie brain has adopted both racism-culture and anti-racism culture at once.

Maybe the growth of anti-racism in the culture and in our brains (and that IS happening) doesn't actually erase racism, it just adds a big spoonful of anti-racism to make the person a bit more paradoxic and confusing. Maybe simply calling them "racist" really is inaccurate, I don't know.

Australia is in a weird place in that its a multicultural success that is home to people from all over the world, while also struggling to come to terms with its colonial, racist past.

Kids here are all taught about the White Australia policy and the wide spread racist sentiment against early non white immigrants, which I suspect has paradoxically made self reflection very difficult. Australians think of racism as the things they learned in school. To them, racism was blatant, unsubtle and spoken of in past tense.

 

[reptilescorpio]

so point me to your posts here or on bigfooty supporting Jobe Watson who copped this level of booing.

please.

Jobe Watson was booed for being white?

 

[bomma_man]

Two different things

The stadium staff are pretty good at removing those that shout out racist jibes. It's going to get seriously messy now with people pointing out others that "boo". You can't say "boo" is being racist :-/.

No I mean jobe was getting booed because he admitted to taking drugs. The reason why Goodes is getting booed is still apparently unclear, but it goes back to the 13 year old girl thing.

Why would you compare those two situations? It doesn't make the argument that everything is fine look any better.

 

[Jimrpg]

I'm with you on the bolded but then how do you do that practically?
Do you say you can't boo Goodes at all? Obviously that's not a solution
Do you ban booing at all? Obviously that's not a solution

That's where the fine people of Australia should stand up and say enough is enough. I hope geelong next week takes a stand and set a good example. It's well within the publics right to boo but it gets to a point where it's damaging the fun of the game. Geelong supporters go out and enjoy the game of footy rather than continue all this negativity.

But don't take my word for it, listen to the words of Geelong coach Chris Scott.

"I think there’s a real, in a perverse sort of way, an opportunity for our supporters to show a little bit of leadership on this issue,” Scott said.

“Adam and the other indigenous players feel like there is a racist element to it, so on that basis it should stop, even if it’s only perception.

“I don’t want to lecture them (Cats fans) full stop. I think education is the most powerful tool that we have here.

“Almost without exception, if people understand that we have people feeling like they’ve been slighted on a racial basis, I’m really confident that they would stop.”

http://m.geelongadvertiser.com.au/s...chris-scott-says/story-fnjuhrhu-1227461731054

 

[AxeMan]

That's where the fine people of Australia should stand up and say enough is enough. I hope geelong next week takes a stand and set a good example. It's well within the publics right to boo but it gets to a point where it's damaging the fun of the game. Geelong supporters go out and enjoy the game of footy rather than continue all this negativity.

So what option is it? No booing Goodes or no booing anyone at all?

 

[Jintor]

So what option is it? No booing Goodes or no booing anyone at all?

create human beings who aren't fucking assholes

 

[Aaron Strife]

Disgusting.

I hope people remember this the next time they trash America for racism

 

[PhantomZone]

No I mean jobe was getting booed because he admitted to taking drugs. The reason why Goodes is getting booed is still apparently unclear, but it goes back to the 13 year old girl thing.

Why would you compare those two situations? It doesn't make the argument that everything is fine look any better.

I've spoken as to why I boo Goodes (since 2007) and why I will continue to boo him. The media commentary about the booing in the last week has not dampened my resolve. If anything it has motivated me to keep going as people like them trying to turn the situation around is a recipe for disaster.

 

[hamchan]

Disgusting.

I hope people remember this the next time they trash America for racism

People need to stop trying to make this seem like America is less racist or something by comparison. America is another country like Australia that needs to look at some of the deep racial issues that it has.

 

[AxeMan]

create human beings who aren't fucking assholes

So you're in the 'don't abuse the opposition at all' camp then?

The players might have a hard time with that.
Are we allowed to boo umpires if not the opposition players?

 

[Fredescu]

If anything it has motivated me to keep going

"If anything, knowing I'm supporting racists has made me decide to support racists more." Good job.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

Disgusting.

I hope people remember this the next time they trash America for racism

Why? Can't countries be criticized independently?

 

[Jimrpg]

So what option is it? No booing Goodes or no booing anyone at all?

I'm saying it's gone too far this time and people should stop and get back to enjoying their footy. it's been going for a year hasn't it?

 

[Omikron]

I've spoken as to why I boo Goodes (since 2007) and why I will continue to boo him. The media commentary about the booing in the last week has not dampened my resolve. If anything it has motivated me to keep going as people like them trying to turn the situation around is a recipe for disaster.

Good job. Keep fighting.

So you're in the 'don't abuse the opposition at all' camp then?

The players might have a hard time with that.
Are we allowed to boo umpires if not the opposition players?

Look. If you can't discern why in this instance it is not on. Then I don't know what else to do. There are a ton of posts in here that go into detail on why you probably should lay off in certain scenarios / times / places etc.

No one is saying you can't boo. But just know that it has the potential to come with you being grouped with another group you probably don't want to be associated with. Or maybe you do? I can't tell any more.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Why? Can't countries be criticized independently?

Every country hates anyone calling them racist..it's pretty racist, really.

 

[Fredescu]

So what option is it? No booing Goodes or no booing anyone at all?

I really think you're underestimating the general publics ability to see that this "booing campaign" is racially motivated and there is no real problem attempting to stop this instance of booing without banning booing altogether, and without banning the booing of in Goodes in particular altogether. You're trying to cram this into two equally broad and difficult rules when it doesn't have to be like that.

 

[legend166]

I'm with you on the bolded but then how do you do that practically?
Do you say you can't boo Goodes at all? Obviously that's not a solution
Do you ban booing at all? Obviously that's not a solution

What do you mean it's not a solution? Why are you speaking of booking as something as important as breathing oxygen?

And far out, no one is saying you're never allowed to boo Adam Goodes again. This straw man is so stupid. People are just asking he gets treated like every other player. If he does something dirty in a game? Boo him in that game, like every other player. Just don't do it for 18 months every single time he's involved in the play.

 

[AxeMan]

I'm saying it's gone too far this time and people should stop and get back to enjoying their footy. it's been going for a year hasn't it?

Totally agree.

But does 'back to enjoying their footy' include being able to boo Goodes (the normal amount that anyone gets)?

 

[AxeMan]

I really think you're underestimating the general publics ability to see that this "booing campaign" is racially motivated and there is no real problem attempting to stop this instance of booing without banning booing altogether, and without banning the booing of in Goodes in particular altogether. You're trying to cram this into two equally broad and difficult rules when it doesn't have to be like that.

I'm trying to think practically how this will look when he next plays.
In my mind it should go like this....
Goodes gets the ball and kicks it away - nothing abnormal happens from the crowd
Goodes gets a mark and shot on goal - normal amount of boos from the crowd

What do you mean it's not a solution? Why are you speaking of booking as something as important as breathing oxygen?

And far out, no one is saying you're never allowed to boo Adam Goodes again. This straw man is so stupid. People are just saying he gets treated like every other player. If he does something dirty in a game? Boo him in that game, like every other player. Just don't do it for 18 months every single time he's involved in the play.

We're on the same page - relax

 

[legend166]

No we're not, because you're defending racists and their rights to be racist.