Support NeoGAF

[SleepDoctor]

Living in the present. Have you seen the ps4 vs xbox line up this year? #4theplayers.

MS pushing BC is the definition of living in the past. But I guess that's OK when it suits your argument?

You're still crying? Lol

Everyone is talking about next gen. Just keep on spinning somewhere else champ. None of your weak damage control is helping you do anything but further embarrass yourself

 

[rnlval]

Matt Phillips@bigevilboss


As a 15 year+ games programmer with 24 triple-A titles released on every Nintendo, Microsoft, and PlayStation machine under the sun, neither I nor anyone else in my field has *ever* used "teraflop" as a unit of measurement of any kind. Just drop the word, it's utterly meaningless
2,458
8:52 AM - Mar 18, 2020

RTX 2070 at 2150 Mhz (36 CU equivalent, 9.9 TFLOPS) with 448 GB/s memory bandwidth.

From 2 weeks raw Gears 5 port results, XSX GPU is similar to RTX 2080 class GPU, hence TFLOPS is scaling with XSX GPU.

An increase in CU count also increases ALU, TMU, register/L0/L1/LDS SRAM storage. MS hasn't shown XSX GPU's geometry and ROPS unit count.

 

[Kerotan]

You're still crying? Lol

Everyone is talking about next gen. Just keep on spinning somewhere else champ. None of your weak damage control is helping you do anything but further embarrass yourself

I'm not surprised you want to forget this gen and wipe it from memory. It's been 10 rough years for xbox exclusives. Let me remind you however it still ain't over and there's a console absolutely killing it with exclusives this year with the other still in hibernation. That good will is going to carry and we'll thankfully see a dominant sales display from the ps5 over the series.

 

[SleepDoctor]

I'm not surprised you want to forget this gen and wipe it from memory. It's been 10 rough years for xbox exclusives. Let me remind you however it still ain't over and there's a console absolutely killing it with exclusives this year with the other still in hibernation. That good will is going to carry and we'll thankfully see a dominant sales display from the ps5 over the series.

Thankfully im not emotionally attached to either brand like you and have enjoyed every game Ive wanted this gen. But thanks for your concern lmao.

Didn't know you could see the future too. Maybe you should use that ability to play the lotto kiddo

 

[kareemna]

That balance that allows it to run like an F15 at takeoff?

DF discussed how will the variable frequency work and that it is basically ambient temperature agnostic.

 

[dano1]

1,8TF = PS4 = games like :

Horizon zero dawn, spiderman, gow, tlou etc.

Look how great this ganes look.
THAT'S RIDICULOUS AMOUNT OF POWER ADVANTAGE.

Stop downplaying this brutal difference

So what your saying it’s the games that matter?!

 

[Filippos]

I'm not surprised you want to forget this gen and wipe it from memory. It's been 10 rough years for xbox exclusives. Let me remind you however it still ain't over and there's a console absolutely killing it with exclusives this year with the other still in hibernation. That good will is going to carry and we'll thankfully see a dominant sales display from the ps5 over the series.

Uh, I think Sony wants to forget this gen, that’s why they don’t even support all ps4 games on PS5, only a handful are supported, whereas Xbox supports all Xbox one games, a lot of OG Xbox and Xbox 360 games.
and well, MS bought a lot of studios, they now have 16, most of them working on multiple games at the same Time, With huge teams.
so, Yeah. Will be different nextgen

 

[Kerotan]

Thankfully im not emotionally attached to either brand like you and have enjoyed every game Ive wanted this gen. But thanks for your concern lmao.

Didn't know you could see the future too. Maybe you should use that ability to play the lotto kiddo

Xbox is so irrelevant outside the US you really don't need to see the future. I give it 0% chance of outselling the ps5. After the last 10 years of top class exclusives the ps4 deserves it.

 

[SleepDoctor]

Xbox is so irrelevant outside the US you really don't need to see the future. I give it 0% chance of outselling the ps5. After the last 10 years of top class exclusives the ps4 deserves it.

You say things like i care what Japan or any other country thinks of a brand lol. Im not influenced by other people. But obviously not that irrelevant when all the fanboys have been crying nonstop since the xsx unveiled.

Ps4 deserves what exactly? Its a piece of plastic not a person lol. Games have been great but not to the point i lost all logic.

 

[sinnergy]

RTX 2070 at 2150 Mhz (36 CU equivalent, 9.9 TFLOPS) with 448 GB/s memory bandwidth.

From 2 weeks raw Gears 5 port results, XSX GPU is similar to RTX 2080 class GPU, hence TFLOPS is scaling with XSX GPU.

An increase in CU count also increases ALU, TMU, register/L0/L1/LDS SRAM storage. MS hasn't shown XSX GPU's geometry and ROPS unit count.

128 ROPS right ? That’s what you get when you calculate TF.

 

[Kerotan]

Uh, I think Sony wants to forget this gen, that’s why they don’t even support all ps4 games on PS5, only a handful are supported, whereas Xbox supports all Xbox one games, a lot of OG Xbox and Xbox 360 games.
and well, MS bought a lot of studios, they now have 16, most of them working on multiple games at the same Time, With huge teams.
so, Yeah. Will be different nextgen

It was supposed to be different this gen especially after the most powerful xbox x. Their biggest ip's like halo and gears have plummeted in star power and now they're all on pc or in Minecrafts case all platforms. Meanwhile Sony in strongest ever position. There's no stopping ps5.

 

[wolffy71]

Xbox is so irrelevant outside the US you really don't need to see the future. I give it 0% chance of outselling the ps5. After the last 10 years of top class exclusives the ps4 deserves it.

It wont outsell ps5 no matter what happens. It might shrink the lead a little bit but even then, as new consumers come online in asia, i would expect Sonys lead grow.

 

[Kerotan]

It wont outsell ps5 no matter what happens. It might shrink the lead a little bit but even then, as new consumers come online in asia, i would expect Sonys lead grow.

Exactly. While there's zero chance ps5 gets beat I like you expect the lead to grow. Games are what matter and Sonys momentum is ridiculous compared to ms in this regard. Looks like the ps5 is a beast so as long as the price is right it will do another 100M for Sony.

 

[sinnergy]

Exactly. While there's zero chance ps5 gets beat I like you expect the lead to grow. Games are what matter and Sonys momentum is ridiculous compared to ms in this regard. Looks like the ps5 is a beast so as long as the price is right it will do another 100M for Sony.

None on a enthusiast forum will care about sales, it’s about power, I don’t give a rats as, I want the best picture on my HDR 4K set.

What joe regular does, probably buys the less powerful PS5, so Sony wins.

 

[Kerotan]

None on a enthusiast forum will care about sales, it’s about power, I don’t give a rats as, I want the best picture on my HDR 4K set.

What joe regular does, probably buys the less powerful PS5, so Sony wins.

Nah generally we care about the best games to play and judging by Sonys output this gen it's advantage them.

Funny this gen the Xbox X is by far the most powerful but the wizards at Sony are making the best looking games. It's not how big, it's how you use it. And rumour has it, Cerney is a divil under the sheets.

 

[Connxtion]

128 ROPS right ? That’s what you get when you calculate TF.

Think it’s going to be more (208*32*1.825/1000) = 12.14TF
(TMU * ROPS * CLOCK / 1000 to get TeraFlops)

As the XB1X was 32 ROPs, but the higher bandwidth negated that. XSX has higher bandwidth again than PS5 so could be the same.

 

[Shmunter]

It's not running a boost clock speed, that is the base clock speed, it is exactly what it will run at all the time 1825 mhz. If you don't understand what you are trying to explain, do yourself a favor and stop.

Yes it will, but you have to acknowledge that not all software utilizes all of that all of the time? When fans are simply humming its not maximized, when it's a jet engine it's being pushed.

PS5 recognizes this reality and allows the system to downclock when not used to lower the power footprint, allowing the power envelope to be use elsewhere i.e. the CPU.

There is actually nothing here that is controversial if you take time to understand it. It's a flexibility option allowing the CPU or GPU to take on more ooompth depending on the games needs. It's smart and will be the standard in the future I predict.

 

[Grinchy]

The difference doesn't really matter anyway since Microsoft isn't even competing with Sony anymore.

 

[rnlval]

128 ROPS right ? That’s what you get when you calculate TF.

FYI,
RTX 2080 has 64 ROPS.
RTX 2080 Ti has 88 ROPS.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

At the end, all tf from 7 to 10,2 is a real scenario for ps5. Ps5 could be more weaker than we imagine.

Let's not pull numbers from "unpleasant" places. First, he talked about "power consumption" it can drop by 10% effecting either by 1-2% only in performance, and that in rare situations, with literally doing the opposite gaining 1-2% on either. Watch it again, please, at 35:27 here:

 

[rnlval]

Think it’s going to be more (208*32*1.825/1000) = 12.14TF
(TMU * ROPS * CLOCK / 1000 to get TeraFlops)

As the XB1X was 32 ROPs, but the higher bandwidth negated that. XSX has higher bandwidth again than PS5 so could be the same.

2 * clock speed * stream processors.

For X1X GPU, 1.825Ghz * 3328 * 2 = 12,147 GFLOPS or 12.147 TFLOPS.

52 CU has higher TMU, TFU, register/L0/L1/LDS/SDC/SIC SRAM storage, schedulers and RT cores when compared to 36 CU, not just ALU increase.

 

[ZywyPL]

The narrative of faster and narrow and more balanced has to stop.
This is simply history repeating itself with the show on the other foot.

Some facts

The Xbox One launched with 12 CU's at 933mhz
The PS4 launched with 18 CU's at 800mhz..

The PS4 had 50% more CU count than the Xbox One
The Xbox had 16% more speed.

The XSX has 52 CU's at 1823mhz
The PS4 has 36 Cu's at up to 2233mhz

The XSX has 44% more CU count than PS5
The Ps4 has up to 22% more speed.

We've heard wasted cycles, and balanced before.




That's from 2013 Xbox One interview Digital Foundry did when MS was getting slammed for having 12 vs 18 Cu's.

We all know how this ended up working.
We all know how this played across the generation.

Stop hoping for something different this gen.

This needs to be posted every single time someone says that PS5 GPU is "faster". Well done sir.

 

[yurinka]

I cannot believe that Cerny and his team were able to achieve 10.28 Teraflops with just 36 CUs!

XSX needed 52 CU's (16 additional CU's) to achieve an additional 1.87 Teraflops, which is not much of a difference when you really think about it. I guess one of the senior engineers at Microsoft really loves Blink-187 and wanted to pay homage to them in a way.

The power consumption of the XSX will be massive because of its heavy reliance on 52 CU's while the PS5 were cost and power consumption effective with just 36 CU's.

This thread is to start a conversation about whether the XSX's 52 CU's was efficient or not to achieve that additional 1.87 Teraflops gain or not.

Well, to get that extra ~14% of teraflop horsepower the cost of the console and the power required is gonna be quite higher.

if it's such a amazing cooling system why is it not a locked at 2.23ghz? it's Bunch of PR BS.

As I remember, the idea is that when CPU and GPU aren't being used at full speed they are boosted proportionally to that free resources in order to reach the limit or their cooling system. They do that to make sure the console always produces the same heat independently if the game is requiring the full horsepower or if it's almost idle, so it's easier to predict the cooling required in all the parts of all the games because it's gonna be always the same (or almost).

This means that with PS5 they will avoid cases we saw as an example in PS4, where certain games push hard the console and the fan noise is huge, while in other ones it's almost idle. Now the experience should be the same in all games, so I assume they found a solution to provide good cooling while producing a fairly low amount of noise.

PS5 boost mode is different than the one from phones or laptops, where it depends on die temperature (so depending on horsepower or if playing in hot rooms, what would affect game performance). In the case of PS5, as mentioned depends on the workload of the game, which gets the horsepower and boost it requires independently of the temperature of the console's die -that now will be always the same- or the room temperature.

They are using a new type of boost, cooling system (Cerny said it's very interesting and that they'll show it in a future console teardown) and power management. It's a new way of doing these things, so we'll need to get extra details and see how it works once the console is tested.

 

[Sacred]

Yes it will, but you have to acknowledge that not all software utilizes all of that all of the time? When fans are simply humming its not maximized, when it's a jet engine it's being pushed.

PS5 recognizes this reality and allows the system to downclock when not used to lower the power footprint, allowing the power envelope to be use elsewhere i.e. the CPU.

There is actually nothing here that is controversial if you take time to understand it. It's a flexibility option allowing the CPU or GPU to take on more ooompth depending on the games needs. It's smart and will be the standard in the future I predict.

This makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Shmunter]

This makes absolutely no sense.

Did it just read like bla bla bla? Computer User Non Technical

 

[rnlval]

Well, to get that extra ~14% of teraflop horsepower the cost of the console and the power required is gonna be quite higher.


As I remember, the idea is that when CPU and GPU aren't being used at full speed they are boosted proportionally to that free resources in order to reach the limit or their cooling system. They do that to make sure the console always produces the same heat independently if the game is requiring the full horsepower or if it's almost idle, so it's easier to predict the cooling required in all the parts of all the games because it's gonna be always the same (or almost).

This means that with PS5 they will avoid cases we saw as an example in PS4, where certain games push hard the console and the fan noise is huge, while in other ones it's almost idle. Now the experience should be the same in all games, so I assume they found a solution to provide good cooling while producing a fairly low amount of noise.

PS5 boost mode is different than the one from phones or laptops, where it depends on die temperature (so depending on horsepower or if playing in hot rooms, what would affect game performance). In the case of PS5, as mentioned depends on the workload of the game, which gets the horsepower and boost it requires independently of the temperature of the console's die -that now will be always the same- or the room temperature.

They are using a new type of boost, cooling system (Cerny said it's very interesting and that they'll show it in a future console teardown) and power management. It's a new way of doing these things, so we'll need to get extra details and see how it works once the console is tested.

1. 12.147 / 10.28 = 1.18 or XSX GPU has 18 percent higher TFLOPS when compared to PS5.
2. XSX GPU's 18 percent TFLOPS increase is backed by 25 percent higher memory bandwidth. No memory bandwidth improvements for PS5 from RX 5700 XT and it has additional CPU accessing the memory bus.

 

[rnlval]

4k is 4x 1080.

If you have a 1080p30 game running base ps4, you would need 7.5 teraflops to run it at 4k native and double that (15 teraflops) to make it 4k60.

Granted it's a newer and more efficient architecture for this generation but still, I doubt we'll see 4k60 anywhere soon. I think the realistic scenario will be "next gen" graphics at native 4k30 on the xbox and upscaled to 4k30 on the ps5. At the end of the day, tweaking the resolution is the easiest way for a dev to upscale/downscale the graphics to a different spec.

For RDR2 at 30 fps,
PS4 has 1920 x 1080 = 2,073,600 pixels with 1.84 TFLOPS

PS4 Pro has 1920 x 2160 = 4,147,200 pixels with 4.2 TFLOPS

X1X has 3840 x 2160 = 8,294,400 pixels with 6 TFLOPS

For two weeks raw (unoptimized) Gears 5 benchmark port with PC Ultra settings at 4K resolution, XSX GPU is like RTX 2080 class GPU.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

more than one will be surprised when they see that they look the same or even better at the Firts Party. I do not have doubt.

I don't think the problem with MSs output this gen is their technical prowess.

 

[dEvAnGeL]

XseX is only 15% faster in TF count than ps5, if the price of the XseX is $100 more than ps5 do you think is worth it?

 

[base]

Sony disappointed many this time.

 

[dEvAnGeL]

For RDR2 at 30 fps,
PS4 has 1920 x 1080 = 2,073,600 pixels with 1.84 TFLOPS

PS4 Pro has 1920 x 2160 = 4,147,200 pixels with 4.2 TFLOPS

X1X has 3840 x 2160 = 8,294,400 pixels with 6 TFLOPS

For two weeks raw (unoptimized) Gears 5 benchmark port with PC Ultra settings at 4K resolution, XSX GPU is like RTX 2080 class GPU.

You on the bandwagon that believes that demo was ported in two weeks? PR is a powerful thing.

 

[base]

XseX is only 15% faster in TF count than ps5, if the price of the XseX is $100 more than ps5 do you think is worth it?

The difference will be around 10-15 fps more on x series. You think it's not worth it or ur sony fanboy?

 

[dEvAnGeL]

The difference will be around 10-15 fps more on x series. You think it's not worth it or ur sony fanboy?

LMFAO. I'm gonna save this post for future reference.

 

[quest]

XseX is only 15% faster in TF count than ps5, if the price of the XseX is $100 more than ps5 do you think is worth it?

It won't be there is not a 100 dollars in bom between the 2. They are going to be the same price unless someone wants to eat more losses. Sony sunk more into cooling and the SSD and Microsoft did the APU those cancel out or Sony costing more.

 

[pyrocro]

I love the energy here but, there is an untold dynamic at play here.
The power draw on the CPU and GPU is very different.

lets say the Ps5 total power usage is 300Watts (lets just say)
How much do you think the CPU gets out of that constant power draw.
and How much does the GPU get.

My 3900x (bawlin) has 12 cores at base clock 3.8GHz and 70Mb cache with a max power draw of 105 watts,

XSX and PS5 8 core CPU's are not drawing 100 watts. But let's just say they do which leaves 200~ for the GPU.


PS5 - default mode
200Watts GPU + 100watts CPU = 300watts total.

PS5 - max GPU mode
200+50watts + 100-50watts CPU = 300watts total.

This seems to be the real conundrum with the PS5,
How much of a CPU hit are you willing to take to get max GPU performance.
How much more frequency do you get with the additional wattage give to the CPU and CPU.

since the power curve is much steeper the higher you go in frequency for the CPU or GPU trading power from one component to the other does not look all that efficient.
you get less per watt the higher the frequency you push.

 

[SLB1904]

So you admit Xbox fans did this earlier in the generation when their console was weaker?

Or what about saying exclusives don't matter before MS went out and bought studios?

But have you seen titanfall?

 

[SLB1904]

The difference will be around 10-15 fps more on x series. You think it's not worth it or ur sony fanboy?

How did you calculate those fps?

 

[Sacred]

Did it just read like bla bla bla? Computer User Non Technical

Yes, that's what I am saying about you, if you have read any of my other posts in this thread I have already disproven every point you thought you were making.

 

[rnlval]

You on the bandwagon that believes that demo was ported in two weeks? PR is a powerful thing.

Disprove it then.

 

[rnlval]

XseX is only 15% faster in TF count than ps5, if the price of the XseX is $100 more than ps5 do you think is worth it?

Sustain 12.147 / peek 10.28 = 1.1816 or XSX GPU has 18.16 percent higher TFLOPS over PS5's peak TFLOPS.

 

[Shmunter]

Yes, that's what I am saying about you, if you have read any of my other posts in this thread I have already disproven every point you thought you were making.

Bro, just because you believe daddy will still come home after popping out to the corner store for some milk after 10 years doesn’t mean its real. .

Refrain from posting at me again, you won’t get a reply. You are not mature enough for this community. Not saying it’s your fault.

 

[dEvAnGeL]

Disprove it then.

Hold on, I'm on the phone with the Coalition getting them receipts.

 

[Sacred]

Bro, just because you believe daddy will still come home after popping out to the corner store for some milk after 10 years doesn’t mean its real. .

Refrain from posting at me again, you won’t get a reply. You are not mature enough for this community. Not saying it’s your fault.

Ok well I'm just going to report you for being a complete child. You are beyond pathetic for these comments and you definitely don't belong in this community.

 

[Max_Po]

Yes ..
Fanboy fights .... comeon keep going people
..

 

[Goliathy]

The narrative of faster and narrow and more balanced has to stop.
This is simply history repeating itself with the show on the other foot.

Some facts

The Xbox One launched with 12 CU's at 933mhz
The PS4 launched with 18 CU's at 800mhz..

The PS4 had 50% more CU count than the Xbox One
The Xbox had 16% more speed.

The XSX has 52 CU's at 1823mhz
The PS4 has 36 Cu's at up to 2233mhz

The XSX has 44% more CU count than PS5
The Ps4 has up to 22% more speed.

We've heard wasted cycles, and balanced before.




That's from 2013 Xbox One interview Digital Foundry did when MS was getting slammed for having 12 vs 18 Cu's.

We all know how this ended up working.
We all know how this played across the generation.

Stop hoping for something different this gen.

Yup. We can also see the same with PC GPUS very clearly.

 

[Shmunter]

Ok well I'm just going to report you for being a complete child. You are beyond pathetic for these comments and you definitely don't belong in this community.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I gave you enough benefit of the doubt through time and spent time replying. But that runs out eventually.

Thank you for your time have a good time!

 

[FranXico]

We've heard wasted cycles, and balanced before.

You forgot to quote Richard Leadbetter.

 

[Marlenus]

Think it’s going to be more (208*32*1.825/1000) = 12.14TF
(TMU * ROPS * CLOCK / 1000 to get TeraFlops)

As the XB1X was 32 ROPs, but the higher bandwidth negated that. XSX has higher bandwidth again than PS5 so could be the same.

The fuck you talking about.

Clock * shaders * 2 = flops.

In the case of Xbox series X shaders is 52CUs * 64 as there are 64 stream processors in each CU.

 

[sinnergy]

FYI,
RTX 2080 has 64 ROPS.
RTX 2080 Ti has 88 ROPS.

That what I was asking , is 64 ROPS feasible?

 

[Connxtion]

The fuck you talking about.

Clock * shaders * 2 = flops.

In the case of Xbox series X shaders is 52CUs * 64 as there are 64 stream processors in each CU.

Language and I used this.

Teraflops Calculator | Calculate Teraflops (TFlops) of GPU Online - AZCalculator

Online teraflops calculator ✅. Use this simple computing calculator ✅ to calculate teraflops of GPU using texture mapping unit (TMU), raster operations, core clock values.

www.azcalculator.com