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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
That's pretty much it as far as I can tell.
toastyToast
Member
Saying that the final scene is a reality where Booker chooses not go to the baptism at all seems unlikely. That dimension was never relevant and for the purposes of the narrative, it doesn't need to exist. Introducing it says there was no point in doing anything
endresults
Member
Edit: Wrong thread.
Incendiary
Banned
I never ran out of money when I played through Hard mode, but isn't that what happens if you lose all your money then too?
Nah, you just get revived normally (damned Lady Comstock ghost...)
And that makes so much sense and is so awesome ahhhh
Nope you keep respawning and it doesn't cost anything... you're just still fucked for money cause if you survive then you're at $0.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
If the "first" Booker died, why did the next one still wake up? He would have to have at least been unconscious.
Exclamation-One
Member
It's only scratching the surface. I posted on this earlier:
After completing the game, it amazes me how much Levineborrowedripped off wholesale from FRINGE:
Watch this scene (light FRINGE spoilers)
Look at the composition of the shot of New York... the use of zeppelins... stealing advanced technology from other universes for profit... and that fact that the major narrative arc of FRINGE hinges on (HUGE SPOILERS):.a father who steals his child from an alternate universe version of himself
Even the Lady Comstock ghost bit was stolen from Season 4:.Peter appearing as a 'ghost' as he breaks through into the Amberverse
There's a heavy Red - Yellow - Blue color motif in the game that was stolen from FRINGE:
Revenge of the Jedi was stolen from FRINGE's alternate Back to the Future:
There are more visual parallels that I can draw, but I'd be spoiling the show for those who haven't seen it.
Now, do I think Irrational Games should -actually- be sued? No, of course not. But still...
Said it in the other thread but it was all meta. The entire ending was meta. It was just a little look back of how far we've been since bio 1
damn....this just blew my mind again
Well, it runs a bit deeper than that. Elizabeth had some idea of what was going on in Columbia and that Fink, for example, was developing products based on snooping at Rapture technology like the Big Daddies and Plasmids. It's reasonable to assume that she knew about the existence of a city under the sea in the future, and thus knowing that Songbird's weakness was underwater pressure, a good place to both be safe and destroy Songbird was Rapture.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Well no. I think they used an alternate dimension story setting that IS similar to Fringe, but is different enough.
Besides, even though some of the plot points are the same it had a drastically different story. Bioshock Infinite could have been influenced by Fringe, but I don't think they sought out to copy it.
Here's a really good article I read about it
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...ck-infinite-you-might-have-missed-completely/
Keyser Soze
Member
You are my favorite thing, Bioshock Infinite
My very favorite thing
Rapture is an alternate reality of Columbia basically. We see multiple times throughout Columbia that Scientists are straight up stealing technology and ideas from Rapture. Fink comments on how he is watching a brilliant biochemist through tears which explains th Vigor/Plasmid connection. Fink talks about all the music his brother is stealing from the tears and how it will make him Columbia's own Mozart etc.
So there are realities where Columbia never happen but the right cycle occurs later on and we get Rapture instead.
Exclamation-One
Member
Somebody explained it earlier in the thread that you can see information on the songbird in one of Fink's labs. There its stated weakness is large amounts of pressure. If true, that's some great detail.
ah, ok. i mean it still seems like they REALLY wanted to reference the original Bio, but they provided a "believable" enough explanation to make it ok.
you'd think Fink would go like 1000s of years into the future as opposed to the 1950's to steal advanced technology, but whatever.
Incendiary
Banned
Rapture doesn't exist until much later than Columbia, though, right? Infinite takes place in 1913, Rapture isn't around until the 1940s at the earliest I'm pretty sure?
endresults
Member
50's. Shit went down in Rapture in December '59
God Only Knows by The Beach Boys also didn't exist until 1967!
Exists, existed, will exist.
But yeah, regarding actual newspaper clippings and direct references by the general population, there would be no reason to expect it, so that bit is off.
toastyToast
Member
Also with the idea that when Booker dies solo, the Letuce's drag another Booker back to that point, why doesn't he experience cognitive dissonance? It can't be tearamnesia he experiences the sensation in the Vox Booker dimension.
A lot hinges on Booker not remembering anything, it's kind of frustrating.
A lot hinges on Booker not remembering anything, it's kind of frustrating.
Scott32020
Member
So are the nose bleeds just an allusion to Lost, or is that a general template for speculative time travel stories?
Cramoss
Member
The One Who Knocks
Member
Because the Luteces bring a version of Booker that experienced the exact same version of events as the first Booker through to the exact same point (onto the rowing boat) and everything occurs exactly the same except the point that leads to Booker's death, The cognitive dissonance still occurs but it occurs at the same point that it occurs for the first Booker (this is, that Booker's own memories conflict with Comstock's memories and leads to him simultaneously remembering both, corrupting and suppressing certain memories). There is no cognitive dissonance with the previous Booker's attempt because it's a different (yet the same, the only difference is that Booker survives whatever kills the previous Booker or, alternatively, dies in a different way) version of the universe and the previous Booker has no influence on the next. For the player, there is no difference because the new Booker does everything exactly the same as the other version did.
Can they really continue on with the Bioshock series after this? This game has pretty much lifted the curtain, so to speak. I'm sure they could say that the new game is in another universe or something, but this game has pretty much tied things together in a pretty satisfying way.
Did Levine say this was his last Bioshock game?
Did Levine say this was his last Bioshock game?
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
You're right. This plus the post credits scene really muddy the theories.
It doesn't need to matter in plot. What matters is the variable in the multiverse. Is it a possibility? If Y, then it exists, because in a quatum multiverse all possibilities are not possibilities but realities. If N, it doesn't, because it cannot exist. Kind of like the coin flip and Booker not rowing: constants to which there is no observable alternative. But Booker joining the revolution in order to get to Elizabeth, and Booker dying at the hands of the Songbird, are possibilities and thus realities. Same with Booker failing and Elizabeth starting war against the land below.
What matters is perspective, the one that you 'the player' as Booker experience. If Elizabeth simply negates the Comstock universe then that is simply a universe collapsing the moment it comes into existence. Booker rejecting baptism was always a variable and remains as one.
I'm not sure DLC will clear all this up. And I don't think it will intend to.
Beelzeboss
Member
The one thing I don't get with the 122 and 123 Booker stuff is if 122 died when he was baptized why was his coin flip counted?
He never made it to that point.
He never made it to that point.
ahh my bad, so then bioshock 2 is 69/70 then
Yeah wouldn't it be 122 Bookers that made it to that point?
Then why would the code be 122?
I just assumed he blacked out. If that's the case, then what did the next Booker do to get past them?
toastyToast
Member
Wow, good pick by the Letuce's considering there is literally one Booker in the multiverse that didn't die at that exact moment (going by the many worlds theory anyway).
I appreciate the rational and your explanation but, my God, that is convenient lol
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
Ya I don't buy the priest drowning him. When he came too he said he was almost drowned. He was probably almost drowned and then carried to the other pond.
I don't think so.
The 1-2-2/122 connection seems to be coincidental. If the code changes for the tower, for whatever reason, it would imply that the first Booker had to ring no bells, as we can say that the Booker we play is no. 123.
Also, how does Booker die being baptised? It seems more likely that being brought to near death causes his past to become more clear. Perhaps this is subjective, but I'm not sure how Booker would get past this point if the gets drowned.
Finally, the Lutece's aren't going to flip a coin for a Booker that didn't make it to that point. If they did, then it could turn up head or tails, because they are independent of the time. This Booker is the 123rd who makes it to Battleship Bay.
It's the go-to visualization of the "somethings wrong with your brain!" trope.
Beelzeboss
Member
holy crap guys I just realized it's 122 because the first booker never rang the bell.
damn this game
damn this game
jacksepticeye
Member
Well that was what I thought about it and made those things seem cooler so I'm sticking with it
Also they don't pick Bookers they think will faail so all the Bookers up to that point flip the coin and the Luteces say "Oh Good you're progressing nicely" (Not a quote I know) and let you continue
The Songbird stops you or you die in the water again and the Luteces test him again with Bird or Cage as another check to see if you're progressing as they'd like.
Of course this is just my interpretation, if you have yours then go for it. It's the beauty of the game
The One Who Knocks
Member
Well, they didn't pick the single Booker. They alter events so that when Booker dies in one universe, he doesn't die in another. For example, at the fairground, picking 77 is a constant. But if they didn't warn him he wouldn't be expecting it to alert Comstock to his presence. This means that he could have been caught off guard and murdered. This then results in them going and getting another Booker to do the same thing but seeing what difference the telegram makes. It's basically one massive game of trial and error for them, It's not so much convenient as it was an innevitability. That is that when they have an infinite set to choose from, eventually they're going to manage to manipulate one into succeeding but it could theoretically take forever (although it's implied that it were at least 122 failures prior to this Booker that reached the coin flip and those failures could have died at any point; we know that in some sets of universes some die trying to rescue Elizabeth to stop her becoming Old Elizabeth for example). It's all about manipulating the variables until they get lucky and they manage to navigate one to the end of the game (when Elizabeth drowns Booker and resets the timeline by creating a paradox leading to a destruction resolution).
EDIT: So in short, it wasn't so much a good pick since they already led many Bookers to their deaths. The door we see after a player death is basically the start of the next timeline and everything happens the exact same up until wherever you die. This is further bolstered by the Lutece's goal to reset the timeline.
EDIT: It can be seen more clearly in the game's timeline (not the endings):
If any Booker dies, they've still an infinite amount to choose from and this infinite amount contains an infinite amount of universes where everything happened the exact same except his death.
EDIT: Although I also agree with Coolio about the priest.
WrenchNinja
Member
I don't buy into any of this "every time Booker dies, we're playing as different versions of him" theories. I don't think he died during his baptism. Or when the airship crashed. Or when Songbird or anyone else knocked him the fuck out. But hey, interpretation.
Funny enough I'm replaying it now and Booker mentioned how the priest needs to know the difference between "baptizing a person and drowning one" this is after Booker had the vision of him back in his office and opening the door seeing NYC in ashes.
Idk if that means 122 booker died in the drowning but I think something did happen.
Idk if that means 122 booker died in the drowning but I think something did happen.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
I love Fringe, but I didn't get a "OMG, it's ripping off Fringe" vibe. There are plenty of other sources Infinite is pulling from, I've read enough comic books alone that had bits featured in Fringe long before it existed.
jacksepticeye
Member
He says that because his mind goes back to the last memory it had before drowning, creating new memories where none exist. H'es supposed to be dead so he can't remember what happened after being submerged, hence you wake up in a different area not knowing how you got there.
That's why that quote is the first thing you see in the game and Booker saying he's not afraid of God or not afraid of dying
jacksepticeye
Member
The Body is the lighthouse keeper warned to stop Booker. He did in previous attempts so the Luteces killed him hence "us". He even has a letter from Comstock stuck on his map
That's why I sarted speculating that in the first place. Because your coin flip is number 123
Just started my 1999 playthrough (which I'm abandoning like a wuss) and there's a line that some acolyte says to Booker right after the baptism, something like "The prophet fills our lungs with water so that we might better appreciate the air." That would seem to indicate that every Founder baptism is fairly extreme and results in passing out/near death.
I don't think Booker dies at that first baptism, just neat foreshadowing.
I don't think Booker dies at that first baptism, just neat foreshadowing.
endresults
Member
I just realized the Luteces had to murder that lighthouse keeper at LEAST 122 times. It looks like they got a bit creative with it after awhile, unless they're just incredibly sadistic.
It's been mentioned that that's the lighthouse keeper, who may have been killed by the Luteces after killing a Booker.