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[BeOnEdge]

ok so its not really DEAD and i hope its around forever but what i just realized after viewing the megaman collection vids is that for some lame reason developers have chosen NOT to bring 2D graphics/gaming up to par with hardware. The only game that i can think of off the top of my head that has done it successfully is klonoa 2 which was amazing. maybe DCs shooters to a lesser extent.

Is there a reason that the core 2d games are still mostly sprites? you have hardware that can do all these amazing effect and polygons yet we still get pixels and sprites. Could you imagine a 2d game with the graphics 10x better than donkey kong country? Mocapped animation better than Earthworm Jim? Street Fighter Collection with a 3d ryu on a 2d plane with sweet looking polyon biceps and awesome particle/lighting effects to accompany fireball clashes? a proper 2d sonic with insane animation with everything rendered in polys!

Will we see a well deserved return and upgrade to 2d gameplay next gen or will it continue to fade into oblivion as it ages with its 8-32 bit heritage? Imagine games that look like these taken to the next level? 3d could easily replace parallax and retain its 2d feel, sprites would be replaced by DKC like characters but even more detailed and real time.

DC is doing this. imagine capcom giving her an update for sf4 with this style and next gen power?

CLOSE! but only the main character is 3d so the BGs look aged and outta place. this game would benefit from GCs power. maybe mario 128 will be what i'm looking for and mario DS is a hint of the future?

 

[Ferrio]

Cause it doesn't feel the same. It isn't a choice in graphics (maybe some) but to me it's 3D fighters (even when set in 2d planes) don't act enough like their 2d counterparts.

 

[Socreges]

The PSP reinforced my fears. And the DS doesn't seem to be any better.

2D is once again a huge minority.

 

[BeOnEdge]

klonoa 2 felt perfect. so did super magnetic neos side scrolling levels. before tekken and VF added 3d play, THOSE were fine too. i dont think gameplay is the issue. i think its fear.

 

[SolidSnakex]

If 2D developers don't actually push the games graphics wise they will be erased, especially with handhelds going 3D now. It's really the developers that's killing off 2D gaming more than anything because the games just look old, they aren't trying to make them look up to date for the mainstream or anything. They don't have to change the gameplay or anything they just have to make them look up to date.

 

[Ferrio]

.....


You missed my point entirely.

3D fighters are good, they do they're stuff good. What they HAVE NOT done thus far is accurately emulate 2D fighters even when they try to (SFEX as an example).

 

[cvxfreak]

I support 2D so long as it pushes the current console's abilities decently (lots of frames and animations, effects, high res sprites, 3D backgrounds). Otherwise I'd rather see them on GBA.

 

[BeOnEdge]

i find it odd that devs back in the day tried to get their games looking so good in 2d then totally let the graphics end fall behind even when more power became availible.

capcom allstars looked clunky but by next gen, the power should be there to give us characters that are on par if not better than their sprite counterparts. gameplay doenst have to be effected. it wanst effected in killer instinct? i mean yes those are pre renderd but whats so hard about replacing a prerendered sprite with a real 3d model and retaining the same gameplay?

 

[Ferrio]

. it wanst effected in killer instinct? i mean yes those are pre renderd but whats so hard about replacing a prerendered sprite with a real 3d model and retaining the same gameplay?

1st. Killer instinct was never a native 2D game, so what was it to be effected from?

2nd. Name a 3D fighter that was originally a 2D sprite based fighter that emulates the 2d feel.


And the fact KI was mentioned in this discussion makes me very sad, and that arguing this might be futile.

 

[BeOnEdge]

how was killer instinct never a native 2d game? thats like saying DKC isnt a native 2d game. same tech. 3d fighter that emulates its 2d feel? mortal kombat 4/gold. you could even still do sub zeros slide! once again, gameplay has nothing to do with it. i'm just wanting all those games that used prerenderd sprites to get high tech treatment. keep the same old gameplay but punch up the graphics to realtime 3d. another game that does this well is SSBM. 2d gameplay, 3d rendered graphics. theres NOTHING 3d about SSBM except for the camera, which could work in other 2d games for effect.

 

[SolidSnakex]

2nd. Name a 3D fighter that was originally a 2D sprite based fighter that emulates the 2d feel.
.

Is that even possible? When you make the move to 3D the feel is going to be completely difference since you're no longer fighting on a single plane.

 

[Ferrio]

2D=SPRITES
3D=Anything with polygons, doesn't even matter if it's on one plane.

3d fighter that emulates its 2d feel? mortal kombat 4/gold. you could even still do sub zeros slide! once again, gameplay has nothing to do with it. i'm just wanting all those games that used prerenderd sprites to get high tech treatment. keep the same old gameplay but punch up the graphics to realtime 3d.

Oh fuck I give up.

 

[BeOnEdge]

2d doesnt=sprites. once again mk4 and SSBM are perfect examples. the only change to the gameplay is the camera. the games still remain on a 2d plane. you cant sidestep in either game. i dont know how many people would consider klonoa 2 a "3d" game. its traditional 2d gameplay. even throwing stuff into the backgrounds could be done on a 2d system. there is a perfect mesh in there but people for some reason act like it doesnt exist.

 

[Keio]

As gaming tech is now reaching the point where simply adding more polygons & shader effects isn't going to change that much, artists must start looking somewhere else to make games distinctive.

2d is one obvious choice. It also brings up a lot of accessible play mechanics. For many of my casual gaming friends, 3d is much harder to grasp than 2d.

 

[The Promised One]

Personally, I'd kill for another 2D Strider, made on the atomswave. How much ass would that kick?

Either that, of a 3D Strider, that plays like Ninja Gaiden.

 

[Ferrio]

2d doesnt=sprites. once again mk4 and SSBM are perfect examples. the only change to the gameplay is the camera. the games still remain on a 2d plane. you cant sidestep in either game. i dont know how many people would consider klonoa 2 a "3d" game. its traditional 2d gameplay. even throwing stuff into the backgrounds could be done on a 2d system. there is a perfect mesh in there but people for some reason act like it doesnt exist.

It does, because polygons do not animate like sprites do. Yes, the basic gameplay can exist but the feel is not the same.

 

[BeOnEdge]

how the hell could i forget VIEWTIFUL JOE!!!! thats the PERFECT example. retains all 2d gameplay, ANIMATION, even the SPEED and its completely 3d! although closer to 2d in modeling. go watch the super mario DS vids too.

 

[The Promised One]

It does, because polygons do not animate like sprites do. Yes, the basic gameplay can exist but the feel is not the same.

I think the difference you're trying to make is saying that 3D, even if it's done on a 2D plane, lacks the same amount of artistic flair and personality as hand-drawn 2D sprites, to which I would agree. A good example of this is the new Y's game for the PS2. The hand-drawn graphics are simply beautiful, and it's 3D elements have hand-drawn textures to make them look 2D, like some of the backgrounds in Marvel vs Capcom 2, and pretty much all of Viewtiful Joe.

 

[Ferrio]

I think the difference you're trying to make is saying that 3D, even if it's done on a 2D plane, lacks the same amount of artistic flair and personality as hand-drawn 2D sprites, to which I would agree. A good example of this is the new Y's game for the PS2. The hand-drawn graphics are simply beautiful, and it's 3D elements have hand-drawn textures to make them look 2D, like some of the backgrounds in Marvel vs Capcom 2, and pretty much all of Viewtiful Joe.

It has nothing to do with art style, it has to do with the feel and animation. Animation effects gameplay in fighters.

 

[Tellaerin]

It has nothing to do with art style, it has to do with the feel and animation. Animation effects gameplay in fighters.

Not to mention the fact that collision feels a lot different in 3D. In a 2D fighter, there are a lot of times when you'll try to land a 'deep' hit--your character's limb will be overlapping the opponent, so that the fist or foot will land inside their sprite, and you'll score more than one hit from that strike as they're knocked back. That sort of thing just doesn't seem to work in a 3D fighting game.

 

[Joe]

2d is alive and kickin (gba). but it could be dead a year from now.

 

[Ferrio]

Not to mention the fact that collision feels a lot different in 3D. In a 2D fighter, there are a lot of times when you'll try to land a 'deep' hit--your character's limb will be overlapping the opponent, so that the fist or foot will land inside their sprite, and you'll score more than one hit from that strike as they're knocked back. That sort of thing just doesn't seem to work in a 3D fighting game.

I can't think of a fighter that does that.

 

[hobbitx]

Every day I pray for some little oddball tech page to pop up with news of some new 2d graphics breakthrough. I'd kill for a day when you could go to Fry's and buy 2d graphics accelerators instead of 3d ones, 2d style games like Doom, Daggerfall, and Hexen could look stunning if they tried to really push the limits of 2d graphics, even though some cel shaded games look really great, that technology is just no replacement for 2d graphics in my book.

 

[Tellaerin]

I can't think of a fighter that does that.

Guess you never played much Street Fighter II (and sequels), then.

 

[Ferrio]

Guess you never played much Street Fighter II (and sequels), then.

Name a game... and a move.


The way you describe it it sounds a glitch. There are moves that are MADE to hit twice if they get in deep enough.

 

[Tellaerin]

Name a game... and a move.


The way you describe it it sounds a glitch. There are moves that are MADE to hit twice if they get in deep enough.

Looking back at my first post, I don't think I phrased that very well. =/ I probably should've said 'you can score more than one hit from that strike before they're knocked back'. The first thing that comes to mind is being able to score multiple hits on a big character like Sagat with Chun-Li's 'step' (='heel kick', 'head stomp', or whatever your local circle of players likes to call it ) by getting that foot in deep enough. (Hopefully that makes more sense now...?) Anyway, the point was that the entire phenomenon of 'deep hits' in 2D fighters is just not something that translates well to 3D games, even 3D on a 2D plane.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

2d is alive and kickin (gba)

yes. but did you see what NST did to Mario vs DK?

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

If 2D developers don't actually push the games graphics wise they will be erased, especially with handhelds going 3D now. It's really the developers that's killing off 2D gaming more than anything because the games just look old, they aren't trying to make them look up to date for the mainstream or anything. They don't have to change the gameplay or anything they just have to make them look up to date.

For games with true 2D graphics 'pushing the hardware' basically means preparing tons of high-resolution animation frames, very labor-intensive and time-consuming and therefore expensive. I don't think developers see a market big enough to justify the expense, they basically see 2D as a low-budget niche market.

 

[BeOnEdge]

thats the thing though. you dont have to do all those high resolution frames if you just replaced the character with a 3d model. once again VJ looked and felt like what i thought i'd be playing in the future when i was 10. explain whats 'out of place" about viewtiful joe because its done with 3d graphics.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

For games with true 2D graphics 'pushing the hardware' basically means preparing tons of high-resolution animation frames, very labor-intensive and time-consuming and therefore expensive. I don't think developers see a market big enough to justify the expense, they basically see 2D as a low-budget niche market.

It's not like 3D games are getting cheaper either, but there's still investment in them in order to push 3D further. It's a catch-22. Push out cheap outdated 2D games, interest in 2D dwindles, less able to justify higher cost, cheap outdated games and so on.

I honestly don't think there's a future for 2D graphics. 2D gameplay on the other hand, I think can find it's place. VJ being a good example. However VJ had fresh and new ideas, implemented into a well crafted game. Once again I think 2D as an excuse to rehash and ride on nostalgia will probably help to kill 2D off.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

I think it's good for the industry for there to be some kind of outlet for cheap outdated? games, but as a sometime wannabe amateur game developer I am biased.

 

[reggieandTFE]

Four Swords is a very pretty game with cool modern effects (ie water reflections, using the moon pearl, big bombs, etc.); I wonder how it'll sell.

 

[DDayton]

There have been a few popular 2D -gameplay- titles this generation... Super Smash Bros. Melee, Viewtiful Joe...

 

[SolidSnakex]

There have been a few popular 2D -gameplay- titles this generation... Super Smash Bros. Melee, Viewtiful Joe...

Contra SS also did very well. Notice a trend with all 3 of those games? Yep, they don't look old, they actually look like modern games even though they're still 2D.

 

[DDayton]

Contra SS also did very well. Notice a trend with all 3 of those games? Yep, they don't look old, they actually look like modern games even though they're still 2D.

By "modern", you mean polygonal, though...

I'd like to see more traditionally animated games, myself. Isn't there some odd little title called Alien Hominid being developed for the consoles as we speak?

 

[SolidSnakex]

By "modern", you mean polygonal, though...

I'd like to see more traditionally animated games, myself. Isn't there some odd little title called Alien Hominid being developed for the consoles as we speak?

No not polygonal, they just don't look old. A fully hand drawn game could probably work too if a developer actuially took the time to make it high res and with impressive animation. But they don't, you either get one or the other, but in most case neither. So since they aren't willing ot do that, the only way to really make 2D gaming survive is to use polygons.

 

[DDayton]

No not polygonal, they just don't look old. A fully hand drawn game could probably work too if a developer actuially took the time to make it high res and with impressive animation. But they don't, you either get one or the other, but in most case neither. So since they aren't willing ot do that, the only way to really make 2D gaming survive is to use polygons.

Eh... in all honesty, traditional animation would merely get the response of "Duh, that looks like a SNES game!" from most gamers. They'd be horribly wrong, mind you, but they wouldn't be impressed by it. I don't think it's possible to make a non-polygonal game that would "look new", as folks equate all non-polygonal stuff as "old and outdated".

 

[SolidSnakex]

I don't think they'd mind if it actually looked good and actually animated well. But you don't get those so it's really hard to judge. If developers never take the chance of doing it then we'll never really know. One thing we do know that 2D gaming can still survive, it's just going to have to be done with polys since developers don't want to put in the time to do high quality hand drawn stuff.

 

[DDayton]

Heh.... what about a game like Paper Mario 2?

2D animation, 3D gameplay.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I expect PM2 to be one of the GC's biggest sellers this year, and it should end up being the systems most succesful RPG. Even with the 2D character models, it still looks modern because of how they look and animate.

 

[ge-man]

I'm actually afraid that the game might be ignored. There's so much coming this fall I have feeling most GC games are going to passed by people saving their pennies for MP2 and RE4. That's just a prediction though so don't hold me to it. Hopefully it does do well.

 

[DDayton]

I'm actually afraid that the game might be ignored. There's so much coming this fall I have feeling most GC games are going to passed by people saving their pennies for MP2 and RE4. That's just a prediction though so don't hold me to it. Hopefully it does do well.

Actually, I'm wondering more about Resident Evil 4 and Metroid Prime 2... RE0 got blasted out of the water by MP last time, it seemed.

 

[Mr. Lemming]

I hope that Four Swords sells well because it will show that 2d does have a place in the console marketplace. Or that Zelda games sell well... something like that.

 

[belgurdo]

3D backgrounds, ultra-animated sprites are the future

 

[TAJ]

>>>Eh... in all honesty, traditional animation would merely get the response of "Duh, that looks like a SNES game!" from most gamers. They'd be horribly wrong, mind you, but they wouldn't be impressed by it.<<<

A 2D game done from the ground up for say, Xbox or one of the next-gen consoles could look more like high-end feature animation than an SNES game. Guilty Gear X kicks the shit out of SNES graphics, and it was done on DC, which has far less RAM available for sprites than Xbox. (and obviously PS3, Xenon, Revolution, etc...)

 

[Pachinko]

I'm kind of with ferrio on this, while I applaud developers for trying and I think they should keep going towards 3d graphics with 2d gameplay ... they still haven't gotten it downpat.


Look at Contra Shattered soldier. It was pretty well a 2D game with 3D graphics but those same 3D graphics made it feel a bit off kilter , like ferrio says, the animation isn't right.


I liken it to watching a flash cartoon compared to real hand drawn animation. When I think true 2D graphics I think of an honest to god 2 dimensional generated image, every point calculated with layers and X, Y coordinates . No Z coordinate to calculate becase there is no depth.


I want to see a hand drawn street fighter 4 with sprites at 640 X 480 that animate at 24 frames of animation per second and equally stunning hand painted backgrounds. The day metal slug gets 3D graphics I'll cry.

 

[Diomedeskun]

Alien Hominid is done using 2d math and thus is not polygonal, but it is like that because it is a port of a game made originally in Flash. It looks like an even more intense Contra style game with awesome play and ugly art.

 

[DDayton]

Guys, you's missing my point... I fully agree that a well done animated game would be amazing... I'm just saying that it would be written off as a "SNES game", regardless of how well animated and designed it might be. Most gamers theses days are very quick to judge a thing merely by the outside looks... and they will automatically discount "2D" games.

I hate that.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'm kind of with ferrio on this, while I applaud developers for trying and I think they should keep going towards 3d graphics with 2d gameplay ... they still haven't gotten it downpat.


Look at Contra Shattered soldier. It was pretty well a 2D game with 3D graphics but those same 3D graphics made it feel a bit off kilter , like ferrio says, the animation isn't right.

What exactly is off about the animation in Contra? It animates better than basically any game of its style. The animation is completely fluid at all times.

 

[cvxfreak]

Four Swords is a very pretty game with cool modern effects (ie water reflections, using the moon pearl, big bombs, etc.); I wonder how it'll sell.

I seriously hope it sells well because it's an awesome game with great graphics (especially when on a GBA screen - they look gorgeous!).