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94+ Million Gen 9 Consoles (PS5 and Xbox Series S|X) have been sold worldwide according to the Take 2 Investor Report.

Det

Member
LOL, it's February 7th... we're barely not even 2 months into the year, not even close to a quarter of the year, let alone the end of the year...

This wasn't a brain fart...
If you can't deny the reality, the Xbox's failed sales, you have to disrupt the discussion and create confusion
If the means of communication is propagating information that you don't like, introduce interference, noise into the communication

This guy is doing this in the thread... It's probably Astroturfing
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
If you can't deny the reality, the Xbox's failed sales, you have to disrupt the discussion and create confusion
If the means of communication is propagating information that you don't like, introduce interference, noise into the communication

This guy is doing this in the thread... It's probably Astroturfing

Yeah, you're right. I keep telling myself to be better and not engage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Det
True, all of them are chasing certain type of audience, there are no exceptions.

Exactly, Xbox never managed to expand beyond its core dudebro/neckbeard American audience

Nspa8OL.jpeg
 
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You struggle with making assumptions, straw man arguments, and bad math.

Let's start with 360 it sold 84 million and the PS3 sold 87.4 million units. How many 360s were replacement units? 5-10 million units, 15 million? Let's be generous and assume none. That combined TAM is 171.4 million units.

The Xbox One sold 58 million units and the PS4 sold 117 million units. That's 175 million units, which is growth of about 3.6 million units again, assuming that many of the 360s sales were not duplicate sales. How did Sony go from 87.4 million to 117 million? Obviously they took back market share from the Xbox 360. Where did you get your 10 percent from? It grew 33.6 percent. You think people double dipped, but you don't think these people traded their PS4s in and those were sold as used units?

Those 58 million consumers who bought the Xbox One are going to go somewhere. Whether it be PC, Switch, or PlayStation, but I think it's safe to assume that at least a third are going to go to PlayStation if not more. I think it's safe to assume more people have a Switch and an Xbox than have an Xbox and a PlayStation. If that's the case you're not going to see as much of an uptick on Switch since they already have one. Same with PC.

I never said everyone would jump to PlayStation, but I don't think it's egregious to suggest most or a plurality will.

You've even convinced yourself that Sony's software isn't selling when Helldivers 2 became their fastest-selling game, and before that Spider-Man 2, and before that God of War Ragnarok... The delusion people are living in is kind of wild.

A far more accurate and considered argument than I made.

I still think PlayStation, PC and Nintendo are benefiting from Xbox hardware’s collapse, though it obviously the former two gaining the lion’s share.
 

tTHANOSs

Member
These would just be estimates by take two? There's no way Xbox series is closer to 30 million units than 25. The numbers don't add up. Would help if Microsoft would just tell us how many they have sold.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
These would just be estimates by take two? There's no way Xbox series is closer to 30 million units than 25. The numbers don't add up. Would help if Microsoft would just tell us how many they have sold.

I think it's safe to assume they're around 30 million units. This combined with what we got from AMD, and combined from the Xbox Brazil conference.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
And that's the old DenchDeckard coming to the surface, telling us you're always still in there.

Sony did do much better to warrant the split.

They got Spider-Man Miles Morales and Demon's Souls remake out at launch.

They've delivered God of War Ragnarok, Spider-Man 2, Helldivers 2, Astro Bot, Horizon Forbidden West, Gran Turismo 7, and several remakes/remasters and smaller games like Rift Apart and Returnal.

Compared to Halo Infinite, Forza Motosport (and Horizon), Hellblade 2, and Starfield...

Each one of Sony's major games is larger than any game Microsoft has put out this generation. It's not even close, and that doesn't begin to touch on the differences in 3rd party support with games like Black Myth Wukong and initially Baldur's Gate 3 and Genshin Impact or exclusives like FF16, FF7 Rebirth...

Year in and year out Sony has had titles to push the PS5, Microsoft hasn't had anything to push the Xbox since launch.

People want to rag on Sony this generation, but it's laughable to compare the two companies and their production and Sony's 1st party production in the last 4-5 years still outpaces any other company in gaming.

I think maybe I've missed spoken and you have latched on to that.

I think Sony has had a solid Gen, but for me personally it has not been a groundbreaking generation for them.

I was trying to use that statement to highlight how poorly Microsoft has performed, not what you're implying that I am secretly attempting to insult ps. That was not my intention.

Is this making it a little clearer. Sony has done fine this gen but for me it's not earth shattering. MS has completely dropped the ball to the point they haven't really brought any solid competition to Sony this gen.
 
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Nikodemos

Member
Real scenario:
The thing about Nintendo is that, if somebody doesn't find their exclusives appealing, there's very little reason to own their console. Third party titles are more expensive than on other platforms, and sales aren't really a thing, the online parts aren't as polished, build quality of the Switch has been notably lower than of other historical Nintendo devices etc. If you look at the top sellers, it's pretty obvious it's almost exclusively a platform for 1st and 2nd party games. The highest selling pure 3rd party game, MonHun Rise, is only number 24 (with Stardew Valley at 25).

Of course, given the raw numbers of devices and software sold, it's pretty obvious people love them, but, if, for whatever reason, you're not a fan of Mario/Link/Pokemon/squidkids, the 'environment' itself has little to no value. Which, I guess, explains their nigh-psychotic antipiracy frenzy. If their games can be played somewhere else, their devices are mostly pointless.
 
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StereoVsn

Gold Member
LOL, in what world?

They're largely keeping pace with PS4 despite being much more expensive and the Pro being almost double the price, especially with a disc drive.

Like, how do you say that with a straight face?
Sony sold just under 74 mil PS4s by end of 2017. So should be around 75+ mil in early February 2018.

If Sony sold 70 mil consoles so far, they are down around 5 mil.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
I think maybe I've missed spoken and you have latched on to that.

I think Sony has had a solid Gen, but for me personally it has not been a groundbreaking generation for them.

I was trying to use that statement to highlight how poorly Microsoft has performed, not what you're implying that I am secretly attempting to insult ps. That was not my intention.

Is this making it a little clearer. Sony has done fine this gen but for me it's not earth shattering. MS has completely dropped the ball to the point they haven't really brought any solid competition to Sony this gen.

My problem as it is with the other thread about PS5 being the worst generation is that people are trying to downplay PlayStation's achievements in line with Microsoft's.

Since 2000, no one can name a company with better output than Sony. So often the entire goalposts is moved to suggest gaming in general is doing badly, when it definitely isn't.

Objectively, it's sony's most profitable generation and the PS5 will no doubt be the 2nd best selling PlayStation console of all time. They're not just doing okay, they're doing great. They've had one or two games nominated for GOTY pretty much every year.

Many people who downplay their games this generation haven't actually played the games.

Do I think Spider-Man 2 or Ragnarok are as good as the original games? Story wise no. Gameplay wise? Yes. I didn't love the first Horizon so I can't really speak on HFW since I haven't played it. I also preferred TLOU1's story over TLOU2 but again gameplay TLOU2 is significantly better.

It's hard for a sequel to have a better story than an original, and I do think they have some writing issues with activist writers, though that's more guilty in Spider-Man 2 than Ragnarok. I think Ragnarok should have been a two part game and built a trilogy.

Gran Turismo 7 is a return to form for the franchise, but I haven't returned to the franchise, so I don't know how good it is. But I'm really interested in GT7 in VR.

I only played a bit of Returnal and Demon's Souls but I think they're both really well made games.

I thought Rift Apart was sloppy and soulless, but it was better than Ratchet and Clank PS4. I think Crack in Time was the pinnacle of the series and didn't love ToD despite many others really liking that the best.

I don't play online games so I can't speak to Helldivers 2. I also wasn't interested in Rise of the Ronin or Stellar Blade, but I can't wait for Ghost of Yotei.

Astro Bot is a masterpiece.

There's subjectivity and objectivity. Objectively, Sony is doing great with software this generation relative to others in the industry and relative to other generations to this point.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
Sony sold just under 74 mil PS4s by end of 2017. So should be around 75+ mil in early February 2018.

If Sony sold 70 mil consoles so far, they are down around 5 mil.

I have them at 73.6 million by the end of 2017.

We don't know when/if Sony hit 70 million units but if they hit it before December 31st, that would only put them at 3.6 million units behind. A number they'll easily be able to close with GTA6 coming out this year.

We only know that Sony hit 65 million units by the end of September. Not a stretch to think they could do 5 million units in 3 months worldwide over the holidays.
 
Real scenario:
AmyCY4j.png


One could even mention Valve, but since doesn't really work on generations, it's unfair

Nintendo isnt a threat to playstation at all though. Both can co exist and be successful because they don't compete directly against eachother. Look how different the library of games are. They each have their own market. If all the big 3rd party games were on both, they would still sell 10× more on playstation because sony dominate that segment of the console space and the audiences of the two platforms is so different. You think if COD launched on both at the same time, it would sell the most on switch? Of course not.
 
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Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
Nintendo isnt a threat to playstation at all though. Both can co exist and be successful because they don't compete directly against eachother. Look how different the library of games are. They each have their own market. If all the big 3rd party games were on both, they would still sell 10× more on playstation because sony dominate that segment of the console space and the audiences of the two platforms is so different. You think if COD launched on both at the same time, it would sell the most on switch? Of course not.

We already have evidence of that with games like Fortnite which are bigger on PlayStation. Even Hogwarts sold more on PlayStation than Switch.

EA FC is already on Switch, not sure why EA's CEO pretends like it isn't.
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
Nintendo consoles dominate PlayStation consoles.

Well, except -
PS1 - 103 million
N64 - 33 million

PS2 - 160 million
GameCube - 26 million

PS4 - 117 million
Wii U - 13 million
You have to count handhelds on both sides as especially with Nintendo they carried the company through low home console eras.
 

Sooner

Gold Member
You have to count handhelds on both sides as especially with Nintendo they carried the company through low home console eras.

Fair, but at the same time, the PS3 wasn't really competing with the 3DS. They are two almost completely seperate markets.

Now, it we are talking about the handheld market, Nintendo has always been dominant. Their home consoles are hit and miss (with more misses than hits).
 
Your assessment is on point, but you have to give Phil SOMEWHAT of a break.

Harry Potter No GIF


Xbox was getting shut down and the only think that kept them in the race was Phil promising Nadella he could turn Xbox into the Netflix of gaming.

Xbox was never at risk of getting shut down. It was still a valuable profitable business. MS would have spun it out as a separate company, or more likely sold it off to Samsung, Amazon, Google or some other company waiting in the wings to enter the market.

In the grand scheme of things, that would have probably been much much better for Xbox.

It's like running away from someone on rooftop who is chasing you with a gun and saying the fall from the jump killed you... yeah sure technically that's right, but you wouldn't have jumped at all if you hadn't been worried about the guy with the gun.

This pretends that all the decisions Spencer has made with Xbox have been the only possible options available to him. That's simply not true. The situation was never a dichotomy between get shut down or flush the traditional console business down the shitter.

Spencer could have made MUCH better decisions long before they started floundering which led to Xbox almost getting sold off. And even afterwards, when going all in on GamePass, he could have focused on FP development and wholly-funded 3rd party games, instead of going after entire multiplatform publishers.

By blowing $80bln on Activision, after spending $7bln on Zenimax, Xbox was going to be forced into becoming third party publisher. They were NEVER going to get enough GP subs and Xbox GP subs to support making all those publisher's games exclusive. Spencer and co. literally deluded themselves into thinking they could, until after the deal was done and the MS CFO came in and was like, "errr... no. You can't just shit $80bln of MS money down the crapper. You need this acquisition to provide a ROI."

At which point, Xbox hardware has become completely redundant.

Xbox was already dead, Phil Spencer just got a second lease on life for it. He took a hail mary and he threw an interception. That's kind of the odds you get with a hail mary.

Xbox was not already dead when Spencer took over. Xbox was already dead almost half a decade later because of Spencer's poor leadership of the brand... I mean... going nearly half a decade with almost no notable first party games to speak of for your platform will do that.

GamePass is closer to Movie Pass than it is Netflix. Netflix ramped up their spending in conjunction with their audience to become an indispensable brand. MoviePass tried to subsidize their way into a market position by creating an audience large enough that they could gain leverage over theaters. Microsoft needed to create leverage over publishers where games couldn't exist without being on GamePass, but games were still selling on PS5, Switch and PC. Microsoft never had the leverage to make GamePass successful. Now they're overlevereged themselves.

Agreed. Which was all the fault of Spencer. GP was never a bad idea. Their chosen strategy with it was what was entirely delusional. They never had a realistic plan because Spencer and his team were completely divorced from reality. Out of touch with gamers. Out of touch with the market, and out of touch with any kind of realistic expectation for his gamepass service.

If Microsoft wasn't bankrolling xbox, they'd have gone under almost a decade ago.

Yes. But MS and their fucked up corporate culture that creates bubbles that their execs live in, is also part of the problem for Xbox. It's no surprise that the successor of a delusional Mattrick ended up being even more delusional. And none of the execs working under or with Spencer in that organisation are any less disconnected from what gamers want ot what the market wants as Spencer himself. It's the culture that creates that kind of collective self-delusion and it's rampant across MS.

I respectfully disagree chap, I watched the whole thing unfold and based on my own small sample of anecdotal evidence.. i.e. me and 4 gamer mates whom all had xbox360s and where looking forward to the new Xbox, then the reveal happened, then the mixed messaging, then the massive performance differential (hilariously downplayed by Xbox) and imo that was when the nail was driven into the coffin, in the years that followed subsequent blows just kept hammering it in but it can all be traced back to losing the previous generation hard...

We all bought went out and bought PlayStations for the first time, built up our digital libraries and are now firmly rooted in the Sony ecosystem, don't underestimate how much of a massive fuck up it was

You are not the market and your anecdote doesn't represent the majority of Xbox gamers. Xbox easily could have recovered from the Xbox One era, but they were stymied by horseshit management that consistently fucked up because they consistently refused to actually listen to the gaming market.
 

Synastry

Member
You have to count handhelds on both sides as especially with Nintendo they carried the company through low home console eras.
Since when is a handheld a home console?

Like Sooner pointed out when it comes to home consoles no Nintendo doesn't dominate Sony.

On the handheld side sure Nintendo as been on that game longer then Sony.
 

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
You are not the market and your anecdote doesn't represent the majority of Xbox gamers. Xbox easily could have recovered from the Xbox One era, but they were stymied by horseshit management that consistently fucked up because they consistently refused to actually listen to the gaming market.

Yes we where the market, we where the casual market that didn't have an affiliation, we simply all had xbox360s like the vast majority other casuals who when the reveal happened and the dust settled went fuuuuuuuuk that and switched, yes the diehard Xbox fans stayed and put up with the 720p mocking content to hang in there knowing that MS would cook up something special... But it was too late, the damage done, the potential userbase had switched and weren't coming back, deny it all you want, but it was over when the game's simply ran and looked better on the PS4 and it became a snowball rolling down the hill
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
Since when is a handheld a home console?

Like Sooner pointed out when it comes to home consoles no Nintendo doesn't dominate Sony.

On the handheld side sure Nintendo as been on that game longer then Sony.
We are talking overall success of each platform holder. At the end folks gaming time is limited and Switch eventually managed to finally capitalize on that.

And without handhelds Nintendo wouldn’t have the cash to get on a solid ground.
 
Microsoft fucked up their strategy to an amazing level.
The ultimate truth is, exclusives sell consoles. Nintendo has proven it repeatedly over the years.

In Microsoft's case, they were simultaneously stupid and arrogant. Which, as Londo Mollari once mentioned, is the most efficient combo. They were stupid enough to not nurture their existing exclusives, while being arrogant enough to think they could simply buy their way into getting more exclusives (all their studio purchases, culminating with A-B).

This led to them spending way too much money, too quickly, on stuff which couldn't bring a proper return in the initially allocated time. The inevitable terminus point for this misdaventure is them becoming a pure 3rd party publisher. They need to, in order to recoup all the expenditures.
At best, I can see their hardware future as a handheld, but no new big (X)box generation. It just doesn't make financial sense.
Agree with a lot said here^

I think they could have turned things around with the series x by releasing a redesign and re focusing on exclusives. This strategy could have allowed them to stretch our the series x gen a bit to build back trust going into the next gen Xbox.

But that can't happen because they handicapped themselves with the series s so they have to move on quicker into new hardware to keep up with Sony plus they started porting games to PlayStation so no one is going to be interested in buying a Xbox if they can get all the games on PlayStation now.

The big mistake of keeping the same leadership in place that hasn't taken them anyway but just burnt through tons of money.
 
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MLB The Show is going current gen only. Not sure if EA FC, Madden, or NBA 2K have been confirmed for current gen only this year. CF25 was current gen only last year and is the best selling sports title in US history... I could see EA FC holding on for another year given the market in Europe, but with GTA6, they probably don't have to. Then you have to look at CoD
I can see COD and Madden finally being current gen only.

NBA 2k18 was the last NBA 2k on ps3 so there’s a chance NBA 2k26 will be current gen too.

As for EA sports FC, 28 will possibly be the first current gen only game for the franchise.
Plus Wolverine, God of War Greek Saga Remastered, Lost Soul Aside, etc.

I can see Sony launching all these games still in 2025.
With the addition of other third party games like kingdom come deliverance 2, metal gear solid 3 delta, Doom the dark ages etc.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
Phil took over shortly after the 360 generation. Xbox One had a terrible reveal, but Xbox was, in no way, "already dead". It's been plummeting since he took over.

It launched for like 100 dollars more than the PS4 and was weaker and Sony had already built up better internal studios...

They only sold as many units as they did because of a year head start and being cheaper than PlayStation... It was a complete reverse of that situation...
 
And that's the old DenchDeckard coming to the surface, telling us you're always still in there.

Sony did do much better to warrant the split.

They got Spider-Man Miles Morales and Demon's Souls remake out at launch.

They've delivered God of War Ragnarok, Spider-Man 2, Helldivers 2, Astro Bot, Horizon Forbidden West, Gran Turismo 7, and several remakes/remasters and smaller games like Rift Apart and Returnal.

Compared to Halo Infinite, Forza Motosport (and Horizon), Hellblade 2, and Starfield...

Each one of Sony's major games is larger than any game Microsoft has put out this generation. It's not even close, and that doesn't begin to touch on the differences in 3rd party support with games like Black Myth Wukong and initially Baldur's Gate 3 and Genshin Impact or exclusives like FF16, FF7 Rebirth...

Year in and year out Sony has had titles to push the PS5, Microsoft hasn't had anything to push the Xbox since launch.

People want to rag on Sony this generation, but it's laughable to compare the two companies and their production and Sony's 1st party production in the last 4-5 years still outpaces any other company in gaming.


Absolutely nailed it.

Sony earned their success this gen. Xbox just couldn't deliver while Sony had massive commercial hits every single year to entice people to buy their platform. The revisionist history is funny from people like DenchDeckard DenchDeckard
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
Ok...
Xbox was never at risk of getting shut down. It was still a valuable profitable business. MS would have spun it out as a separate company, or more likely sold it off to Samsung, Amazon, Google or some other company waiting in the wings to enter the market.

In the grand scheme of things, that would have probably been much much better for Xbox.



This pretends that all the decisions Spencer has made with Xbox have been the only possible options available to him. That's simply not true. The situation was never a dichotomy between get shut down or flush the traditional console business down the shitter.


You're ignoring multiple reports even from Spencer himself that they considered shutting Xbox down... Not sure why you think Samsung, Amazon, or Google would want to buy Xbox. There's zero intrinsic value to the brand. Xbox can't exist without Microsoft heavily subsidizing it only to be in a distance 3rd place position.

Not saying all of his decisions were good ones, but outside of the pitch to make a Netflix like revenue stream, Xbox was dead.

Spencer could have made MUCH better decisions long before they started floundering which led to Xbox almost getting sold off. And even afterwards, when going all in on GamePass, he could have focused on FP development and wholly-funded 3rd party games, instead of going after entire multiplatform publishers.

I believe many in Microsoft have been trying to kill Xbox since the 360. It takes years if not decades to cultivate first-party development...

By blowing $80bln on Activision, after spending $7bln on Zenimax, Xbox was going to be forced into becoming third party publisher. They were NEVER going to get enough GP subs and Xbox GP subs to support making all those publisher's games exclusive. Spencer and co. literally deluded themselves into thinking they could, until after the deal was done and the MS CFO came in and was like, "errr... no. You can't just shit $80bln of MS money down the crapper. You need this acquisition to provide a ROI."

At which point, Xbox hardware has become completely redundant.

Again, it's no worse than they would have been otherwise. The 80 billion was to create a content stream for GamePass, but the acquisition of ABK took too long and XBS sales declined before that could happen.

Xbox was not already dead when Spencer took over. Xbox was already dead almost half a decade later because of Spencer's poor leadership of the brand... I mean... going nearly half a decade with almost no notable first party games to speak of for your platform will do that.

You're ignoring the context of the situation. I give Spencer a lot of shit, but no, all of this was not on him. He inherited no established studios. Not a single one.


Agreed. Which was all the fault of Spencer. GP was never a bad idea. Their chosen strategy with it was what was entirely delusional. They never had a realistic plan because Spencer and his team were completely divorced from reality. Out of touch with gamers. Out of touch with the market, and out of touch with any kind of realistic expectation for his gamepass service.

If they were able to get CoD exclusively on GamePass in 2022, it would have been a gamechanger for them.

Yes. But MS and their fucked up corporate culture that creates bubbles that their execs live in, is also part of the problem for Xbox. It's no surprise that the successor of a delusional Mattrick ended up being even more delusional. And none of the execs working under or with Spencer in that organisation are any less disconnected from what gamers want ot what the market wants as Spencer himself. It's the culture that creates that kind of collective self-delusion and it's rampant across MS.

Even looking at their contractor restrictions. Microsoft was never set up to be a great game development company. The larger games get the worse off they are.
 

Muddy

Member
If the numbers in this thread are to be believed in a 5 year period for PS4 it had sold 88 million, in the same 5 year period the PS5 has sold about 60 million, I wouldn't largely say keeping pace due to being 30 million behind and instead being a lower status quo possibly due to a large portion of the new games for the system having been fairly underwhelming this generation.

PS5 has been on the market just over 4 years and it has sold around 70 million.

It is projected to sell around 18 million a year. Keeping pace with the PS4.

Where did you get the 60 million in 5 years from?
 

Killjoy-NL

Member
Which means 70+ millions made the noise this gen by not supporting either of these platforms.
How do you come to that conclusion?

According to this article, by the end of 2017 (4 years into the gen), EA shared that there were ~103M [last-gen] consoles on the market.
PS4 was at ~74M.
XBO was at ~29M.
(It's a Dutch source though)

That's roughly the same as we see now. The only difference we see now is PS5 sales picking up and Series sales flatlining.

No idea where you get the 70+M from?
 
Things have become so bleak for Xbox fans sadly. They went from defending the brand and it’s exclusives fiercely for years to now wanting to hold hands with fellow gamers and sing Kumbaya “Let’s all game together cuz exclusives don’t matter anymore”……….utterly pitiful yet comical at the same time.
 

SHA

Member
How do you come to that conclusion?

According to this article, by the end of 2017 (4 years into the gen), EA shared that there were ~103M [last-gen] consoles on the market.
PS4 was at ~74M.
XBO was at ~29M.
(It's a Dutch source though)

That's roughly the same as we see now. The only difference we see now is PS5 sales picking up and Series sales flatlining.

No idea where you get the 70+M from?
I saw the number 170m the other day on both the 8th and 7th gen.
 
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SHA

Member
I saw the number 170m the other day on both the 8th and 7th gen.
Pro and X sales may actually backfired at both Sony and Microsoft, a lot them have bought the vanilla and pro last gen and decided to spend on one console this gen. I could be wrong but If this is true then we may see better software sales this time.
 
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Killjoy-NL

Member
Pro and X sales may actually backfired at both Sony and Microsoft, a lot them have bought the vanilla and pro last gen and decided to spend on one console this gen. I could be wrong but If this is true then we may see better software sales this time.
Well, kinda, that's why we see PS5 sales picking up and Xbox sales flatlining now, as well as Xbox releasing their games on PS.
 

m14

Member
Exactly, Xbox never managed to expand beyond its core dudebro/neckbeard American audience

Nspa8OL.jpeg
That's not quite true- the 360 outsold the PS3 in the UK by quite some margin.

However, there remains a degree of envy among some that Xbox managed to inspire the kind of devotion seen in that picture. PS fans tend to be lone wolves while their Nintendo and Xbox peers are more community oriented.
 
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