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[AngularSaxophone]

What is confusing in the book of Enoch? It even makes mention of the son of man.

 

[Thurible]

Hey, did you guys know that this is happening in China? They are attacking Churches and are trying to get people to swear loyalty to the communist party instead of God. Very sad, I will pray for them.

https://nypost.com/2018/09/10/china-wages-war-on-jesus/?utm_source=reddit.com

 

[AngularSaxophone]

You’ll still buy various China made appliances though, won’t you. WONT YOU.

Immediately we should come together and stop buying China made

-Cars
-RAM
-Action Figures

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God. (2 Corinthians 1:3, 4 NIV)

 

[AngularSaxophone]

“We are tempted by our own desires.” Jas 1:14 CEV

Why choose sin?

James writes: “Don’t blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and he doesn’t use evil to tempt others. We are tempted by our own desires that drag us off and trap us.
Our desires make us sin, and when sin is finished with us, it leaves us dead. Don’t be fooled, my dear friends” (vv. 13-16 CEV).
When you keep sinning and violating your values, you can reach a place where it’s hard to live comfortably in your own skin.
Any appetite that’s overindulged can quickly become an addiction. What you wanted yesterday, you find yourself needing today. Then before you know it, you give yourself over to the thing that’s controlling your life because it’s the only way you can find temporary escape.
Stop and ask: (1) “What about my life’s purpose?” What about the person God called you to be? Seeing the joy others have is a constant reminder of the joy you’ve lost, and what you’re missing out on.
(2) “What happens when trouble hits my life or my family?” In such moments you wonder, “Is this happening because of me?” A thousand voices may tell you it’s not your fault, but deep down you are never sure.
The only way to find real peace is to get right with God. And you can. Here’s His offer: “Turn to the Lord! He can still be found. Call out to God! He is near. Give up your crooked ways and your evil thoughts. Return to the Lord our God. He will be merciful and forgive your sins” (Isa 55:6-7 CEV). If He is available then why would you choose sin?

 

[CosCom]

In this thread we discuss the world's greatest religion, Christianity. The Christian Bible is the most printed, read and studied book in human history. Today approximately 1 in 3 people globally are Christians, recognizing the historical Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, the Christ, the divine Son of God.

(Gustave Dore, Triumph of Christianity)

An almost limitless number of topics in theology, philosophy, politics, history, art, etc., are of interest to the student of Christianity. And so, this thread is open for any and all of these relevant discussions.

As a sample and summary of historic Christian doctrine, here below is the ancient and revered Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

A good resource for studying the scriptures in various translations: https://www.biblegateway.com/

The Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html

I close with the "prayer before study" from the pen of the great Saint Thomas Aquinas:

Ineffable Creator,
Who, from the treasures of Your wisdom,
have established three hierarchies of angels,
have arrayed them in marvelous order
above the fiery heavens,
and have marshaled the regions
of the universe with such artful skill,

You are proclaimed
the true font of light and wisdom,
and the primal origin
raised high beyond all things.

Pour forth a ray of Your brightness
into the darkened places of my mind;
disperse from my soul
the twofold darkness
into which I was born:
sin and ignorance.

You make eloquent the tongues of infants.
refine my speech
and pour forth upon my lips
The goodness of Your blessing.

Grant to me
keenness of mind,
capacity to remember,
skill in learning,
subtlety to interpret,
and eloquence in speech.

May You
guide the beginning of my work,
direct its progress,
and bring it to completion.

You Who are true God and true Man,
who live and reign, world without end.

Amen.

Why do you have to evolve into this topic?

 

[VAL0R]

Why do you have to evolve into this topic?

I don't understand your meaning.

 

[phisheep]

Never happened to me, but I heard from a few older people that there were clown masses back in the day. Like the priest would dress up as a clown or something. I hope I misheard.

Where I live, one of the local ministers is a part-time clown. Every year he holds a clown service that professional clowns from all over the country attend - the town is full of clowns all day, and the service is both spooky and moving.

 

[Thurible]

Where I live, one of the local ministers is a part-time clown. Every year he holds a clown service that professional clowns from all over the country attend - the town is full of clowns all day, and the service is both spooky and moving.

Wait, do you mean the minister and the clowns are dressed as clowns during the mass? Or that the attending people and minister are just professional clowns that don't dress up in ridiculous clown attire while in mass?

I seriously hope it's not the former, mass should be taken seriously and with reverence.

 

[phisheep]

Wait, do you mean the minister and the clowns are dressed as clowns during the mass? Or that the attending people and minister are just professional clowns that don't dress up in ridiculous clown attire while in mass?

I seriously hope it's not the former, mass should be taken seriously and with reverence.

Yes, they are. Full clown garb throughout. And the service is taken seriously and with reverence - no contradiction there. They parade through town before the service too - it is marvellous!

 

[Thurible]

Yes, they are. Full clown garb throughout. And the service is taken seriously and with reverence - no contradiction there. They parade through town before the service too - it is marvellous!

Clowns are made to be silly and ridiculous, hence why they generally have large bulbous noses, colored wigs, impossibly large shoes, face paint, colorful and bright mismatched clothes, etc.

The mass is supposed to bring people closer to God. I have heard some priests make some jokes during the homily but that is to serve a much bigger purpose and ties into the overall message they are giving. It draws people in and has a point, also the jokes are few and far between.

Clowns are ridiculous, and in a setting of reverence and prayer they are out of place. Their purpose is to make people laugh. When I go to mass, I try to think about my relationship with God, how I can better serve Him, I try to understand the mass and how the readings and homily apply to my life, and most importantly I am talking to God. I also believe with the eucharist I am eating the actual body of Christ, so I should be taking that with much reverence and grace. Clowns would distract people, and make the mass into some kind of show. I hope you understand why I believe that it is incredibly innappropriate to have clowns in a mass setting.

P.S. Clowns are also known for their jokes and not taking things seriously, some people may take a clown mass to mean that they are MOCKING the faith.

 

[phisheep]

Clowns are made to be silly and ridiculous, hence why they generally have large bulbous noses, colored wigs, impossibly large shoes, face paint, colorful and bright mismatched clothes, etc.

The mass is supposed to bring people closer to God. I have heard some priests make some jokes during the homily but that is to serve a much bigger purpose and ties into the overall message they are giving. It draws people in and has a point, also the jokes are few and far between.

Clowns are ridiculous, and in a setting of reverence and prayer they are out of place. Their purpose is to make people laugh. When I go to mass, I try to think about my relationship with God, how I can better serve Him, I try to understand the mass and how the readings and homily apply to my life, and most importantly I am talking to God. I also believe with the eucharist I am eating the actual body of Christ, so I should be taking that with much reverence and grace. Clowns would distract people, and make the mass into some kind of show. I hope you understand why I believe that it is incredibly innappropriate to have clowns in a mass setting.

P.S. Clowns are also known for their jokes and not taking things seriously, some people may take a clown mass to mean that they are MOCKING the faith.

Yeah, I understand where you are coming from CGG, of course.

But let me spin it a bit differently so you understand, too, where I'm coming from.

It's completely commonplace for people to attend services in their working clothes. For example in bright overalls on an oil rig, in military uniform on the battlefield or on board ship, in jeans, wellington boots and smelling of giraffe at Sydney Zoo - I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. Any of these might be a distraction to others in your normal civilian service. But the clown service (at least the one we have here) isn't a normal civilian service - it is a whole church full of clowns, standing room only at the back (I snuck in quietly one year). And clowns see each other differently than the way the rest of us see them - they are not, to each other, figures of fun but companions in arms, professional comrades, rivals, friends, acquaintances, in short a community like any other congregation.

Why on earth should they not, on occasion, have their own service? And where better to praise God for the gift of bringing laughter into other peoples' lives?

 

[Thurible]

Yeah, I understand where you are coming from CGG, of course.

But let me spin it a bit differently so you understand, too, where I'm coming from.

It's completely commonplace for people to attend services in their working clothes. For example in bright overalls on an oil rig, in military uniform on the battlefield or on board ship, in jeans, wellington boots and smelling of giraffe at Sydney Zoo - I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. Any of these might be a distraction to others in your normal civilian service. But the clown service (at least the one we have here) isn't a normal civilian service - it is a whole church full of clowns, standing room only at the back (I snuck in quietly one year). And clowns see each other differently than the way the rest of us see them - they are not, to each other, figures of fun but companions in arms, professional comrades, rivals, friends, acquaintances, in short a community like any other congregation.

Why on earth should they not, on occasion, have their own service? And where better to praise God for the gift of bringing laughter into other peoples' lives?

I still disagree. I understand your logic and you have some solid reasons like instead of being a mockery it is supposed to be a community of people and using their gifts to better serve God. However, slapstick silly comedy has a point and a place and that place isn't the church. It is good to have a common brotherhood and use comedy to get closer to God, but clowning around (quite literally) in a sacred place is innappropriate. Church isn't about fun, in fact, I admit it can be quite dry sometimes. It is about God first and foremost. One CAN honor God through comedy but the things that happen in mass are not the time or place for it. Clowns are showy and colorful and mass isn't supposed to be fun or colorful.

As a catholic, I believe the Eucharist is the body of Christ. If I saw a priest blessing the Eucharist while dressed up as a clown I would think He isn't taking it seriously like it should and I would be greatly offended.

Can you imagine a priest and parishoners showing up naked or dressed up like ragged hippies living on a commune for months? There has to be a line somewhere on what is acceptable attire in mass. I admit to being guilty of not wearing appropriate attire many times. Sometimes I wear t-shirts and maybe I should be doing less of that. However, me wearing t-shirts does not distract from the reverence of the mass.

Clown attire and innapropriate jokes should not be at the mass.

 

[phisheep]

Thurible Fair enough. I respect your view even if I don't agree with it. We'll have to disagree, though I'd be interested to hear what other people think. Just to be clear on the facts, it is a Methodist church, not a Catholic one - but I don't think that affects the argument on either side.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Long live the Pope! His praises sound
Again and yet again:
His rule is over space and time;
His throne the hearts of men:
All hail! the Shepherd King of Rome,
The theme of loving song:
Let all the earth his glory sing,
And heav'n the strain prolong.
Let all the earth his glory sing,
And heav'n the strain prolong.

2. Beleaguered by the foes of earth,
Beset by hosts of hell,
He guards the loyal flock of Christ,
A watchful sentinel:
And yet, amid the din and strife,
The clash of mace and sword,
He bears alone the shepherd staff,
This champion of the Lord.
He bears alone the shepherd staff,
This champion of the Lord.

3. His signet is the Fisherman's;
No sceptre does he bear;
In meek and lowly majesty
He rules from Peter's Chair:
And yet from every tribe and tongue,
From every clime and zone,
Three hundred million voices sing,
The glory of his throne.
Three hundred million voices sing,
The glory of his throne.

4. Then raise the chant, with heart and voice,
In church and school and home:
"Long live the Shepherd of the Flock!
Long live the Pope of Rome!"
Almighty Father, bless his work,
Protect him in his ways,
Receive his prayers, fulfill his hopes,
And grant him "length of days."
Receive his prayers, fulfill his hopes,
And grant him "length of days."

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I encourage anyone in the Catholic Church to leave it. Hundreds more cases of pedophelia have come out in Germany.

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/emily-...hurch-covered-alleged-child-sexual-abuse-1670

I was watching the confessions of a nun who escaped from a convent and her testimony was awful. Not only are children victims of sexual abuse but nuns as well.



I mean are these things true?
-allowed to steal $40 from the confession box
-hours in a casket
-signature in blood
-not allowed to see family
-inheritance given to the church
-owned by Rome

I’ve been watching this as well which goes over the history of error breeding error in the RCC. It seems as if James the Just may actually supposed to be the true rock of the church and Rome went in their own direction.

 

[Thurible]

I encourage anyone in the Catholic Church to leave it. Hundreds more cases of pedophelia have come out in Germany.

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/emily-...hurch-covered-alleged-child-sexual-abuse-1670

I was watching the confessions of a nun who escaped from a convent and her testimony was awful. Not only are children victims of sexual abuse but nuns as well.



I mean are these things true?
-allowed to steal $40 from the confession box
-hours in a casket
-signature in blood
-not allowed to see family
-inheritance given to the church
-owned by Rome

I’ve been watching this as well which goes over the history of error breeding error in the RCC. It seems as if James the Just may actually supposed to be the true rock of the church and Rome went in their own direction.

Sax, I just want to let you know that your information on the Church is very uninformed and speaks to me that you probably come from a background of anti-catholic bias (ex. "Those darn catholics worship mary and the saints!" (not true)). In fact, on one of your previous posts you alleged that the at the vatican we have polytheistic idols that we worship and you essentially implied that we are occult satanists. If you are sincerely curious about the Church I recommend looking at objective sources or even sources within the church herself.

There is a sex scandal that is going on in the Church and I won't lie that it is a big issue. However, the vast majority of people who are priests or living the religious life are good, honest, God fearing people who devote themselves to God and their fellow man. (I remember hearing a statistic that said about 2-3%, but that is still too high). Something should be done to prevent any abuse in the future, this is true. Many of us feel hurt and confused by what is happening, and efforts are being made. Why are you focusing in on the church on this issue? Evil people exist everywhere and sadly a few can sneak their way into sacred institutions, this isn't just a catholic problem, even secularists and protestants have this issue.

I doubt anything that I say is going to have an impact on your opinion on catholicism, but I wish I could make you understand. A lot of people have put you on ignore and have abandoned this thread seemingly because you aggressively go after people who disagree with them. For example, calling catholicism essentially a den of pedophiles and satanists makes anyone who is a catholic (including me) feel like we are being harassed and ignores basic catholic doctrine for what you think we believe. Why would I want to talk to someone who thinks I may be evil and is ignorant of my fundamental beliefs and makes no effort to correct themselves?

Besides your concern on the sex abuse scandal (there is some validity to be worried, as this is a problem but again it doesn't mean our faith is wrong or that the vast majority of clergy are involved), there is really nothing to say to you about your claims on catholicism as they have no basis in reality. Do you even know what a convent is? I would like you to personally speak to a sister or nun and ask her what her life is like and her day to day activities.

God bless

 

[AngularSaxophone]

In that last video it seems that many popes have contradictory beliefs and doctrine. Was Constantine really named the pontificus Maximus of Lucifer? There’s just too much bad fruit for the Catholic Church to really be the one true church. God is fully apart from sin. Some of the Catholic Church believe the pope is the voice of Christ or God. Our elders would have never been allowed anywhere near the holy of holies while participating in such activities. Christ came as an example for us to follow and these people are so far off it has to make you question the denomination at minimum. Read scripture on your own and seek the kingdom. Our main objective should always be to be repentant of sin, to study and to minister to those God directs us to while being as Christ like as possible. Christ himself said we’d do things greater than he. The apostles were all sinners until they walked with the Son of God.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Christ (Yeshua), wasn’t born in a manger. He was born in a cave.

 

[the.acl]

I have a question. In revelation, 7 churches are represented by 7 angels. Which of these angels represents the Catholic Church?[/QUOT]

The seven churches in Revelation are actual churches that existed during that time. Physical temples, with their respective members.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

So which is the Catholic Church?

 

[AngularSaxophone]

James the Just has rank over Peter.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

I can’t believe this thread has been going for 6 months. Time sped up for the sake of the elect? This is a good lesson.

 

[AngularSaxophone]

Was Constantine an antichrist?

 

[appaws]

I'll try to revive the thread killed by Sax with a new topic of discussion.

The canonization of Paul VI is an utter disgrace, and demonstrates conclusively that the smoke of Satan has indeed entered the Church. Another demonstration that the string of innovators we have had as "popes" since the death of Pius XII are heretics and fakes. Cathedra Inanis. God punishes us when we turn our faces from him. Can there be any doubt that we are being punished for our wickedness with the diminution of the Church, the curse of sodomite "priests" terrorizing children, and the withdrawal of the graces of the true mass from the great bulk of the people?

There is no earthly solution to this. There is no restoration coming in our lifetimes through human agency. The "cardinals" selected by the V2 anti-popes are not going to choose a Catholic pope again. They are too weak to set themselves against the powers of the modern world. All we can do is pray. Pray the Rosary. Follow the example of Christ and of true saints. Seek out the graces of real Catholicism within the rotting husk of the Novus Ordo church as best we can. God knows the truth of what is going on, and won't punish those who are really trying because orthodox forms are not available.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I'll try to revive the thread killed by Sax with a new topic of discussion.

The canonization of Paul VI is an utter disgrace, and demonstrates conclusively that the smoke of Satan has indeed entered the Church. Another demonstration that the string of innovators we have had as "popes" since the death of Pius XII are heretics and fakes. Cathedra Inanis. God punishes us when we turn our faces from him. Can there be any doubt that we are being punished for our wickedness with the diminution of the Church, the curse of sodomite "priests" terrorizing children, and the withdrawal of the graces of the true mass from the great bulk of the people?

There is no earthly solution to this. There is no restoration coming in our lifetimes through human agency. The "cardinals" selected by the V2 anti-popes are not going to choose a Catholic pope again. They are too weak to set themselves against the powers of the modern world. All we can do is pray. Pray the Rosary. Follow the example of Christ and of true saints. Seek out the graces of real Catholicism within the rotting husk of the Novus Ordo church as best we can. God knows the truth of what is going on, and won't punish those who are really trying because orthodox forms are not available.

I have a lot of respect for Catholics who can condemn the bad practices without throwing out their faith. Remember that the "gates of Hell will not prevail against it". The promise wasn't that the gates of Hell won't make the attempt.

 

[Thurible]

I'll try to revive the thread killed by Sax with a new topic of discussion.

The canonization of Paul VI is an utter disgrace, and demonstrates conclusively that the smoke of Satan has indeed entered the Church. Another demonstration that the string of innovators we have had as "popes" since the death of Pius XII are heretics and fakes. Cathedra Inanis. God punishes us when we turn our faces from him. Can there be any doubt that we are being punished for our wickedness with the diminution of the Church, the curse of sodomite "priests" terrorizing children, and the withdrawal of the graces of the true mass from the great bulk of the people?

There is no earthly solution to this. There is no restoration coming in our lifetimes through human agency. The "cardinals" selected by the V2 anti-popes are not going to choose a Catholic pope again. They are too weak to set themselves against the powers of the modern world. All we can do is pray. Pray the Rosary. Follow the example of Christ and of true saints. Seek out the graces of real Catholicism within the rotting husk of the Novus Ordo church as best we can. God knows the truth of what is going on, and won't punish those who are really trying because orthodox forms are not available.

I didn't even know that Paul VI was canonized til I read your post. That actually weirds me out a little that such information didn't reach me until now.

Based on what you have written I shall go on a limb and say you don't like Vatican II and perhaps are a traditionalist, correct? What is yout biggest problem with Vatican II if you don't mind me asking?

My biggest complaint with Pope Francis is that it seems like he may have knowingly allowed the sex abuse to occur (I pray it isn't so, how could the leader of our Church allow such heinous evil to occur), and what is going on with China with the whole appeasement to the Chinese government while throwing the true underground church in China underneath the bus. I wouldn't call him an "anti-pope" though, he is still our pope and has done some good things for the Church, and wasn't illegitamently elected (however, that doesn't excuse all the crap that is going on that he is allowing). We do need to stop all the evil we are letting happen.

 

[appaws]

I have a lot of respect for Catholics who can condemn the bad practices without throwing out their faith. Remember that the "gates of Hell will not prevail against it". The promise wasn't that the gates of Hell won't make the attempt.

Good point. In the end, Christ will win. But in the meantime, the devil remains a constant threat to lead humans away from God, including those who are supposed to be our spiritual leaders. I hate when Novus Ordo "catholics" use that line as a way of saying "nothing is wrong."

I'll come back and answer CatholicGamerGuy later when I have more time.

 

[Bolivar687]

I don't think it's fair to depict Paul VI as the Varican II Pope, as he was the one who coined the phrase "the smoke of satan has entered" after the innovators bragged about opening the windows of the Church for fresh air. It was said that he wept when they presented him "his" mass and that he died clutching a crucifix, mindlessly repeating "I believe in one, holy, Roman Catholic Church." It's also been rumored he was planning to confront the Jesuits and that his medical complications may have been intentional "accidents," foreshadowing the assassination and attempts on his successors.

No one can deny, however, that the Holy Spirit was acting through him when he firmly reasserted the Judeo-Christian teaching on contraception with Humanae Vitae. Almost every Christian denomination was going along with the rest of the World to see nothing wrong with something as harmless and consensual as contraception, yet somehow Paul VI broke ranks with the recommendations of his own pontifical council to set forth that contraception is offensive to God and prophetically predicting the ravenous effects it would have on society.

Christians need to appreciate this happening at the advent of oral contraception. The birth control pill was the harbinger that brought about everything else required for the hyper-sexualization of civilization: the normalization of pornography, the enactment of no-fault divorce, and last and finally, the decriminalization of abortion. It cannot be understated that birth control paved the way for abortion, not the other way around. All of these things have contributed to the decline of the family, which is the most bulletproof indicator of personal, professional, financial, and emotional success for children, far more race, gender, or any of the other other "systemic" fictions promulgated by the secular left. Although he may not have used the best rhetorical devices, almost every thing he predicted in Humanae Vitae came true. We should be proud that we can point to a Pope reaffirming this in the face of modernity at its apex.

I would also hesitate to lay too much blame on the cardinals, either. I always thought John Paul II and Benedict XVI were faithful pontiffs, friends of traditionalism, and did a lot to fight modernism both inside the Church and throughout the larger world outside of it. While Francis' pontificate now seems very precarious, it was said that the cardinals elected him because of his aescetism, hoping an ascetic outsider would be able to clean up Rome in the ways an insider like Benedict couldn't, and that he would do for Latin America what John Paul II did for Eastern Europe with respect to socialism. They were wrong, and there's a lot of troubling rumors about Francis' connections to the Saint Galen mafia. His promotion of cardinals like Cupich is scary but pray that faithful cardinals hold out and preserve in these times. The most important thing is to hold fast to the Trinity.

 

[mcz117chief]

Just speaking from my perspective as someone who works for the archdiocese of Prague most of the bishops here are top notch people who value liberty and love above all else. Some of them have even been instrumental in the downfall of communism in our country and others are, for example, military chaplains and I can vouch for most of them. The current generation of bishops in our country is very fine and I have hope for a proper restoration of the Catholic Church.

 

[appaws]

Just speaking from my perspective as someone who works for the archdiocese of Prague most of the bishops here are top notch people who value liberty and love above all else. Some of them have even been instrumental in the downfall of communism in our country and others are, for example, military chaplains and I can vouch for most of them. The current generation of bishops in our country is very fine and I have hope for a proper restoration of the Catholic Church.

Thanks for posting. Not to nitpick, but I don't think clergy should value "liberty and love" above all else, especially not liberty. Those are great things, wonderful gifts from God that we can enjoy....but a Catholic spiritual leader should value Christ and bringing souls to him above all else. Of course any priest who helped bring down atheist Communism was doing God's work, no denying that.

I see this problem in the United States quite a bit. The mainline Protestant churches went first, starting to care more about this world more than the next. They hang their hats on wonderful charity work, etc. And those are fine things, we should do them for the love of Christ. But they are not the main reason for the existence of the church, saving souls is. But as mainline Protestant sects shed all vestiges of their actual belief in the exclusive saving power of Christ, they turned to worldly concerns. This attitude is seeping into Novus Ordo "Catholic" parishes now. As more and more priests and bishops are indifferent to the historic faith, or even outright modernists and universalists, as women take over the lay leadership of a parish, the problem gets worse and worse.

Think about your local parish. (At least in the US,) It is a lot easier to go to a Friday fish fry, collect canned food for poor families, or participate in some other banal social activity, than it is to get a confession or find a daily mass. The priorities are backwards.

 

[mcz117chief]

Thanks for posting. Not to nitpick, but I don't think clergy should value "liberty and love" above all else, especially not liberty. Those are great things, wonderful gifts from God that we can enjoy....but a Catholic spiritual leader should value Christ and bringing souls to him above all else. Of course any priest who helped bring down atheist Communism was doing God's work, no denying that.

I see this problem in the United States quite a bit. The mainline Protestant churches went first, starting to care more about this world more than the next. They hang their hats on wonderful charity work, etc. And those are fine things, we should do them for the love of Christ. But they are not the main reason for the existence of the church, saving souls is. But as mainline Protestant sects shed all vestiges of their actual belief in the exclusive saving power of Christ, they turned to worldly concerns. This attitude is seeping into Novus Ordo "Catholic" parishes now. As more and more priests and bishops are indifferent to the historic faith, or even outright modernists and universalists, as women take over the lay leadership of a parish, the problem gets worse and worse.

Think about your local parish. (At least in the US,) It is a lot easier to go to a Friday fish fry, collect canned food for poor families, or participate in some other banal social activity, than it is to get a confession or find a daily mass. The priorities are backwards.

I wholeheartedly agree with you but it is very hard to judge someone's devotion to God (sometimes it can be very obvious and weak or quite hidden yet strong). I can, however, see how they treat other people and what actions they take concerning charity and our growing corruption in the political sphere. On the other hand I can definitely see the trend you are describing here as well.

Also, God is the ultimate love and by loving others we come closer to God. We can and do love God through other people so love is an essential quality to have to be a proper Christian

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Thanks for posting. Not to nitpick, but I don't think clergy should value "liberty and love" above all else, especially not liberty. Those are great things, wonderful gifts from God that we can enjoy....but a Catholic spiritual leader should value Christ and bringing souls to him above all else. Of course any priest who helped bring down atheist Communism was doing God's work, no denying that.

I see this problem in the United States quite a bit. The mainline Protestant churches went first, starting to care more about this world more than the next. They hang their hats on wonderful charity work, etc. And those are fine things, we should do them for the love of Christ. But they are not the main reason for the existence of the church, saving souls is. But as mainline Protestant sects shed all vestiges of their actual belief in the exclusive saving power of Christ, they turned to worldly concerns. This attitude is seeping into Novus Ordo "Catholic" parishes now. As more and more priests and bishops are indifferent to the historic faith, or even outright modernists and universalists, as women take over the lay leadership of a parish, the problem gets worse and worse.

Think about your local parish. (At least in the US,) It is a lot easier to go to a Friday fish fry, collect canned food for poor families, or participate in some other banal social activity, than it is to get a confession or find a daily mass. The priorities are backwards.

The priorities are sometimes backwards, but I view this more of a failure to capitalize on those activities, not a problem with the activity itself. Offering food and clothing are good on their own. We can fulfill our charge to help the poor and needy by doing so.

If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

I agree that if that's all we do -- if we only offer them physical food and not spiritual food -- then we are missing our calling. We must do both. I would argue, though, that we are talking about two different things: the sacraments, learning from scripture, worshipping God, declaring the Gospel, and fellowship with other believers is distinct from providing for the poor. The latter will always flow from individuals who are devoted to the former, but not the other way around (if that's what you're getting at).

 

[Thurible]

This conversation reminds me of the necessity of utilizing both faith and good works as Christians. That we need to be strong in faith while also working for the betterment of others (physically and spiritually). I remember arguing (it was actually a polite dialogue, not a shouting match, and some interesting points were raised) with a protestant on why they don't believe good works are necessary and I remember him saying that he believes that good works actually come from faith and that he personally does not see the need to specify and divide it as it is sort of a part of faith. I would personally argue that a person could be faithful and devout, but that ultimately means nothing if they don't live it out.

I wonder what you guys think about faith and good works?

 

[VAL0R]

This conversation reminds me of the necessity of utilizing both faith and good works as Christians. That we need to be strong in faith while also working for the betterment of others (physically and spiritually). I remember arguing (it was actually a polite dialogue, not a shouting match, and some interesting points were raised) with a protestant on why they don't believe good works are necessary and I remember him saying that he believes that good works actually come from faith and that he personally does not see the need to specify and divide it as it is sort of a part of faith. I would personally argue that a person could be faithful and devout, but that ultimately means nothing if they don't live it out.

I wonder what you guys think about faith and good works?

I don't think you can be "faithful and devout" without works. Prayer is a work. Baptism is a work. Repentance is a work. Going to Mass/Church is a work. Teaching your children about Christ is a work. Reading the scriptures is a work. Forgiving your brother is a work. Willfully avoiding temptation to sin is a work. These holy acts are essential to be faithful and the scriptures are very clear you need to do good works, such as these, to go to heaven. An explicit example is found in Matthew 6:15, "But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences." In other words, if you don't do the good work of forgiving your brother of his sins against you, God will not forgive you of your sin against God and you die in your sins. Therefore the good work of forgiving your brother is required for salvation.

 

[Bolivar687]

First, I don't think any of us our capable on winning salvation on our own. It's solely because of the love of God, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the communion of the Holy Spirit why any of us can get anywhere close.

That said, I think protestants lose the plot when they speak about salvation through faith alone. Paul was responding to very specific problems within the early churches of Greece and Syria, where Hebrew Christian outsiders were coming in and insisting they need to get circumcized and follow the Mosaic law. Paul was explaining that the dietary and hygenic restrictions placed on Abraham, his family, and their descendants does not apply to the rest of the world who were saved by the Passion of Jesus Christ.

That said, I think it's important that the letters of the disciples and their communities come after the epistles of Paul in the New Testament. After learning the basic tenets of new converts and the problems we're likely to encounter, the next few letters then tie everything together between the Old and the New.

 

[VAL0R]

It's important to remember that only by the grace of God, through the work of God, do we accomplish the good works that God has predestined us to achieve. "For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will" (Philippians 2:13). So when a man is saved in glory, it is as Augustine wrote, “Then God will crown not so much thy merits, as his own gifts."

 

[Shaqazooloo]

I've been wanting to get more into Christianity for a bit and have been thinking I might start reading the bible on Sunday's. Anybody have any weekly youtube video's that I can watch on Sunday or something? Preferably something for black people, athough I am okay with other types as well.
I'd go to Church but my regular one is pretty far out and I don't have a car.

 

[mcz117chief]

I've been wanting to get more into Christianity for a bit and have been thinking I might start reading the bible on Sunday's. Anybody have any weekly youtube video's that I can watch on Sunday or something? Preferably something for black people, athough I am okay with other types as well.
I'd go to Church but my regular one is pretty far out and I don't have a car.

Youtube videos are a bad idea, mate. Primarily because you will be exposed to people's opinions on the topic (something you should do once you have your own opinions and ideas to confront them with). The best way to get into Christianity is by getting to know Christ and to do that you should open your heart and mind and just read the New Testament then the Old (some say read the Old first but I think you should start with New). Just read the books and focus what is and how it is written. Try to visualise the scenes and imagine yourself as an observer of the story. Be one of Jesus' disciples/friends/members of the family/passerby. Reading the Bible for the first time should be a spiritual journey so if it is your first time reading it do it at home without TV or music, just you, the Book and God.

 

[Ivellios]

Youtube videos are a bad idea, mate. Primarily because you will be exposed to people's opinions on the topic (something you should do once you have your own opinions and ideas to confront them with). The best way to get into Christianity is by getting to know Christ and to do that you should open your heart and mind and just read the New Testament then the Old (some say read the Old first but I think you should start with New). Just read the books and focus what is and how it is written. Try to visualise the scenes and imagine yourself as an observer of the story. Be one of Jesus' disciples/friends/members of the family/passerby. Reading the Bible for the first time should be a spiritual journey so if it is your first time reading it do it at home without TV or music, just you, the Book and God.

This is a good advice, reading the entire new testament for the first time is a wonderful experience, and even when you read it again you always learn something new. The old testament is more complex and hard to understand imo, but there are many lessons there as well. My favorite parts of the old testament are Job, Proverbs, Ecclisiastes and Jonah.

After reading the new testament, do you have someone you trust who have knowledge about the bible and christianity in general? I think its good to have conversations with people like that because they can help you understand things better.

I would recommend a pastor i trust who makes videos in youtube, but im not from US so it would not help you i think.

Is anyone here a christian that simple dont go to any church?

 

[appaws]

I've been wanting to get more into Christianity for a bit and have been thinking I might start reading the bible on Sunday's. Anybody have any weekly youtube video's that I can watch on Sunday or something? Preferably something for black people, athough I am okay with other types as well.
I'd go to Church but my regular one is pretty far out and I don't have a car.

That's awesome. I agree with these other guys, reading the New Testament is a great place to start. The 4 gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the "main" stories of Christ and his works. They are generally easier to read, sort of. (John is a bit more esoteric.) Remember that you are reading something from 2000 years ago that is translated into English, but was first written down in Greek. And Christ and his Apostles probably spoke mostly Aramaic in their everyday lives. They may have also known Hebrew, Greek, and Latin to some degree. It was a very diverse part of the world!

I also encourage you to pray a little, if that is something you don't already do. Maybe just the Lord's Prayer (Our Father...) before and after you start reading.

Good Luck, and come back here with any questions.

 

[Bolivar687]

I've been wanting to get more into Christianity for a bit and have been thinking I might start reading the bible on Sunday's. Anybody have any weekly youtube video's that I can watch on Sunday or something? Preferably something for black people, athough I am okay with other types as well.
I'd go to Church but my regular one is pretty far out and I don't have a car.

For starting out I recommend getting a study bible and reading the intros and the footnotes for the four Gospels, to get a good grasp on the vocabulary of Jesus and the early Church. The letters of the Apostles that follow then make a lot more sense about how to follow the Way in your everday life and some of the things you have to look out for. Going back to the Old Testament after the New is then where you really learn where all this comes from, what it's a continuation of, and brings together what it's all about.

A lecturer I recommend who has a lot on YouTube is Brant Pitre, who isn't really a theologian but a Biblical scholar. He explains it from an academic perspective of the origins, history, and language of the Bible that informs its meaning and intent. It's important to armor your faith from this perspective, as the archaeology, especially recently, has really reinforced traditional understandings of the Bible against the scholarly criticism from the last hundred years.

 

[mcz117chief]

John is a bit more esoteric.

That is a bit unfair to John. Each author of NT wrote his version for different audience. John's just so happens to be Greek philosophers. It is also why it is the most well written in a grammatical sense, since he is not afraid to use lesser known words to convey his message properly. He was also by far the most educated of all the NT authors.

 

[Shaqazooloo]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I do have the New Testament in my house (haven't read) and am gonna start reading this Sunday (little too busy lately).

 

[mcz117chief]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I do have the New Testament in my house (haven't read) and am gonna start reading this Sunday (little too busy lately).

Let us know how you liked it or not, its a free country

 

[appaws]

That is a bit unfair to John. Each author of NT wrote his version for different audience. John's just so happens to be Greek philosophers. It is also why it is the most well written in a grammatical sense, since he is not afraid to use lesser known words to convey his message properly. He was also by far the most educated of all the NT authors.

Yeah, I know...and I really like John. But for a modern reader who is new to it, it will be a little harder to get through and you will have to stop and read more footnotes, etc. Totally worth it, of course.

 

[mcz117chief]

Yeah, I know...and I really like John. But for a modern reader who is new to it, it will be a little harder to get through and you will have to stop and read more footnotes, etc. Totally worth it, of course.

Understandably. Getting to understand his high-tier philosophical approach takes time but is well worth it

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

I'm curious to know the opinions of people here on the pope. Not he himself, but the actual status and concept behind the position.

 

[Bolivar687]

I'm curious to know the opinions of people here on the pope. Not he himself, but the actual status and concept behind the position.

First, I acknowledge the primacy of Peter. Christ built his Church on him and his confession (Matthew 16:18) and told him to lead his followers after the Resurrection (John 21:17). Just as Moses assembled seventy priests (Numbers 11), Jesus likewise commissioned seventy followers to disseminate the sacraments in their priestly vocation (Luke 10). And just as the Holy Spirit descended upon Moses' seventy (Numbers 11:17), so too did it descend upon the inner circle of Jesus' priesthood at Pentecost (Acts 2). The twelve were clearly groomed for leadership (Matthew 20:25-26). And just like Israel's Sanhedrin had a high priest, so did the early Church, as Peter made the decisions that he rest of Church had to follow, as at the Council of Jerusalem, where he revealed that Christianity is for all races, no longer just for the Hebrews (Acts 15).

There is a strong suggestion in Chapter 11 from the Gospel of John that Peter is the replacement of Israel's High Priest in Jesus' new ecclesiarchy. Just like Peter's confession that earned him his place of primacy came from God and not from his own qualifications (Matthew 16:17), Caiaphus derives his misunderstood vision of Jesus dying to save the Kingdom due to his temporary authority, not from his own personal clairvoyancy (John 11:51). This suggests that this is an office, and not something unique to Peter for the duration of his own lifetime.

Irenaeus, one of the earliest Church Fathers, wrote about the primacy of Rome. The first Popes seemed to have held primacy over the other bishops, and the writings of Clement I very nearly made it into the New Testament.

It's important to note that Popes don't have to be good people (Peter confessed to being a sinful man (Luke 5:8)), to be especially faithful (Matthew 14:31), to always tell the truth (Peter's denials of Christ (John 18:17)), or to always get it right on their own (Matthew 16:23). But the Bible establishes that the office itself holds considerable weight and deserves deference.

Jesus Christ created a church, with a hierarchy of leaders, and he did not want there to be different denominations like we see today (John 17:21). There's no way to understand the Acts of the Apostles; the Epistles of Paul, James, Peter, John, and Jude; or the Revelation of Jesus Christ, fully half of the New Testament, without recognizing it as the management of the one Church, and the authoritative teachings of its divinely-sanctioned leadership. This is a tough and mysterious concept, but we should all try and hope to understand it more as we grow in our faith.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

First, I acknowledge the primacy of Peter. Christ built his Church on him and his confession (Matthew 16:18) and told him to lead his followers after the Resurrection (John 21:17). Just as Moses assembled seventy priests (Numbers 11), Jesus likewise commissioned seventy followers to disseminate the sacraments in their priestly vocation (Luke 10). And just as the Holy Spirit descended upon Moses' seventy (Numbers 11:17), so too did it descend upon the inner circle of Jesus' priesthood at Pentecost (Acts 2). The twelve were clearly groomed for leadership (Matthew 20:25-26). And just like Israel's Sanhedrin had a high priest, so did the early Church, as Peter made the decisions that he rest of Church had to follow, as at the Council of Jerusalem, where he revealed that Christianity is for all races, no longer just for the Hebrews (Acts 15).

There is a strong suggestion in Chapter 11 from the Gospel of John that Peter is the replacement of Israel's High Priest in Jesus' new ecclesiarchy. Just like Peter's confession that earned him his place of primacy came from God and not from his own qualifications (Matthew 16:17), Caiaphus derives his misunderstood vision of Jesus dying to save the Kingdom due to his temporary authority, not from his own personal clairvoyancy (John 11:51). This suggests that this is an office, and not something unique to Peter for the duration of his own lifetime.

Irenaeus, one of the earliest Church Fathers, wrote about the primacy of Rome. The first Popes seemed to have held primacy over the other bishops, and the writings of Clement I very nearly made it into the New Testament.

It's important to note that Popes don't have to be good people (Peter confessed to being a sinful man (Luke 5:8)), to be especially faithful (Matthew 14:31), to always tell the truth (Peter's denials of Christ (John 18:17)), or to always get it right on their own (Matthew 16:23). But the Bible establishes that the office itself holds considerable weight and deserves deference.

Jesus Christ created a church, with a hierarchy of leaders, and he did not want there to be different denominations like we see today (John 17:21). There's no way to understand the Acts of the Apostles; the Epistles of Paul, James, Peter, John, and Jude; or the Revelation of Jesus Christ, fully half of the New Testament, without recognizing it as the management of the one Church, and the authoritative teachings of its divinely-sanctioned leadership. This is a tough and mysterious concept, but we should all try and hope to understand it more as we grow in our faith.

Doesn't really answer my question but it's clear that the bowing and the submission to him contradicts what peter said when he told his followers all should stand to the lord. Not to mention the fact that bowing to a man contradicts the bible, as well as the pope and his underlings donning themselves in idoltry.

Peter role in the bible also doesn't match what the modern role of the pope seems to be either. Pope seems more like a "king" of Christians now.This is especially true if you read all the scriptures instead of the 'canon"