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DF Retro: Sega Saturn vs Sony PlayStation - The Driving/Racing Game Face-Off
- Thread starter mansoor1980
- Start date
mansoor1980
Member
old video
edit , its a new video
edit , its a new video
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RetroGamingUK
Member
Sega Rally, Daytona CCE and Manx TT were miracles on Saturn. Pretty much every other racer ran poorly. Most PlayStation racers run at 20-30fps with (at least after 1996) car lighting, Saturn racers had no such lighting. Damn, Ridge 4 even had Gouraud shading on the tracks
On top of that the distant backgrounds in PlayStation used polygons to construct a flat backdrop, conversely Saturn’s backdrops use VDP2 to display what is essentially a flat moving bitmap.
Saying that, as much as I love Ridge Racer Type 4 it’s Sega Rally that remains the king of racers from that generation (obviously not graphically, but handling is perfect)
On top of that the distant backgrounds in PlayStation used polygons to construct a flat backdrop, conversely Saturn’s backdrops use VDP2 to display what is essentially a flat moving bitmap.
Saying that, as much as I love Ridge Racer Type 4 it’s Sega Rally that remains the king of racers from that generation (obviously not graphically, but handling is perfect)
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
RetroGamingUK
Member
John Linneman appears to be doing a series here by the way.
Next up is a 2D shooter comparison video, I think Saturn will fare much better next time.
Next up is a 2D shooter comparison video, I think Saturn will fare much better next time.
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RetroGamingUK
Member
As pointed out in the video, Saturn peaked in terms of 3D racers with Sega Rally releasing right at the end of 1995.
It held up throughout 1996, but in early 1997 Sony released Porsche Challenge featuring transparencies, lighting and much more geometry. Even the drivers were fully modelled.
So what did Sega have in response? At the end of the year we got this shit…
Now obviously it’s faster than Sega Rally and has more cars on track and arguably more geometry. Often running at 15fps though it really does raise questions as to how much the Saturn could handle.
Did Sega Rally and Daytona CCE simply max the Saturn out early on?
It held up throughout 1996, but in early 1997 Sony released Porsche Challenge featuring transparencies, lighting and much more geometry. Even the drivers were fully modelled.
So what did Sega have in response? At the end of the year we got this shit…
Now obviously it’s faster than Sega Rally and has more cars on track and arguably more geometry. Often running at 15fps though it really does raise questions as to how much the Saturn could handle.
Did Sega Rally and Daytona CCE simply max the Saturn out early on?
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mansoor1980
Member
20 fps in saturn ports of wipeout games , big downgrade next to the ps1 versions
other games fare better on the saturn
other games fare better on the saturn
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RetroGamingUK
Member
Rage Racer, another early 1997 3D racer that Saturn didn’t come close to touching, just look at the geometry in the video thumbnail for starters…
RetroGamingUK
Member
GT24 (1999), a very rare example of a 3D racer on Saturn exhibiting shading/lighting on the cars.
Unfortunately it suffers with some absolutely horrendous pop-in
Unfortunately it suffers with some absolutely horrendous pop-in
Lysandros
Member
Porsche Challenge was certainly a looker and still remains somewhat of an unsung technical accomplishment i think. I remember playing the demo one track in loop and being impressed by the graphics every single time. It was very comfortably beyond anything Saturn could do, and that was in 1997.
Saber
Member
Thats cool! Totally gonna watch it, thanks
mansoor1980
mansoor1980
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
How I miss a Sega console ! I'm tired of this vintage content.
Horseganador
Member
It seems that most of them have better performance and look better on Playstation, which is predictable since it is a more powerful 3D system.
mansoor1980
Member
What an emotional roller coaster ride
diffusionx
Gold Member
I like the Saturn a lot but it’s simply not as good as PSX for the vast majority of games that generation and it’s fine. We need to just move on.
diffusionx
Gold Member
In 2024 these games have a great retro vibe, in 1994, it was old and far more limited technology and developers wanted to do more with their games than what sprite scaling could deliver.
Wolzard
Member
Yes, it's like ray tracing nowadays, a promising technology, but it needs to mature, while "baked" solutions can still generate satisfactory results.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Virtua Racing, Ridge Racer and Daytona killed this style of game outright in the arcades.
Driving games just work so much better in 3D, every small turning angle counts and the 3D car model displays all these nuances.
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SweetTooth
Gold Member
Yup!20 fps in saturn ports of wipeout games , big downgrade next to the ps1 versions
other games fare better on the saturn
Im tired of winning as PlayStation fan
Wolzard
Member
I only really liked it from the Dreamcast onwards, in the previous generation for me most of the games were ugly, with a lot of dithering, clipping, low poly.
At this point, the pseudo-3D with sprites managed to have more beautiful art and an interesting visual effect, in addition to running at 60 fps.
You mentioned VR, RR, Daytona, but interestingly, the most beautiful pseudo-3D games came out after these games. It suggests that these 3D games were experiments, while 2D games were at the pinnacle of technique.
metareferential
Member
Some games, notably first party ones, actually managed to have transparencies and other neat effects (Nights, Burning Rangers, both from Sonic Team; but I'm not sure on the second one).
Great content from DF. I loooooved playing NFS so much back in the day on my Saturn. It looked like real life to the 10 years-old me ;(
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SweetTooth
Gold Member
diffusionx
Gold Member
Hard disagree, there were many good looking racing games on PSX and N64, especially late in the generation, within context of course, they were a huge step over sprite scalers.
You cannot do RRT4, Wipeout 3, cmr2.0, F1 97, Beetle Adventure Racing, SF Rush, Sled Storm, CTR, GT2, Wave Race 64, StarWars Racer, the list goes on and on, with sprite scaling. Polygons opened up a whole new level to take racing games they weren't before and devs made great use of them.
nkarafo
Member
Geometry was PS1's biggest strength IMO. Even the N64 had a hard time reaching those polygon numbers on average because of bottlenecks (only the best developers such as Rare, Factor-5 and BOSS managed to surpass it with custom microcodes and nowadays Kaze).
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SweetTooth
Gold Member
Yup lack of transparency is off putting, looks like a relic from SNES era.
nkarafo
Member
Ironically, the SNES could do transparencies.
SweetTooth
Gold Member
Well, I'll be damned
th4tguy
Member
The actual transparency on Saturn are tricks, expensive, and can only be used in certain circumstances
Spiral1407
Member
DAMN, the Saturn really IS the PS3 of that gen...20 fps in saturn ports of wipeout games , big downgrade next to the ps1 versions
other games fare better on the saturn
But jokes aside, the next 'shmups' themed episode is gonna be a bloodbath. That genre is the Saturn's bread and butter
diffusionx
Gold Member
I can think of one game, Dodonpachi, that is better on PSX.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Pretty good result for the Saturn, nice amount of wins/draws, for a system everyone trashes.
Especially as a few of the games that won on PlayStation (and one on Saturn) are still shit, others still fine on Saturn (If you can enjoy the PS NFSIII in erratic 20-30 fps you can enjoy Wipeout/XL in stable 20) and Street Racer should have been a Saturn win considering how barren it is on PS. Baffling:
Night Striker S having some meaty extra content should also be a win really (I'm sure if Shutokou had that they'd give it to the PS). But that should have been in the shooters video and Mass Destruction in whatever video they will put the likes of Soviet Strike in too. Weird inclusions but oh well.
Especially as a few of the games that won on PlayStation (and one on Saturn) are still shit, others still fine on Saturn (If you can enjoy the PS NFSIII in erratic 20-30 fps you can enjoy Wipeout/XL in stable 20) and Street Racer should have been a Saturn win considering how barren it is on PS. Baffling:
Night Striker S having some meaty extra content should also be a win really (I'm sure if Shutokou had that they'd give it to the PS). But that should have been in the shooters video and Mass Destruction in whatever video they will put the likes of Soviet Strike in too. Weird inclusions but oh well.
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Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I mean, there are a few more that run fine in this very video (and a couple more exclusives out of the scope of the video but hey, list warz with one system having like, a couple thousand more games total available - not to speak of the budget/priority from developers even with what was made for both - lol). Having to use polygons for a 2D background isn't a flex, just a necessity, the visual result can be great on both (and there are things it apparently can't replicate in 3D, as in Street Racer's sky/clouds/shadows, if we're gonna ignore the rest of the missing scenery like DF Retro did here).
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diffusionx
Gold Member
For anyone who actually cares instead of for some reason fighting fanboy wars 30 years late
mansoor1980
Member
no u didnt , my bad
cireza
Member
Dynamic lighting cast by the car on the road and scenery. Dynamic lighting on the car. Proper fade-in effect for the scenery and excellent, stable framerate. The car also has a great physic overall, very good game.
I haven't watched the video yet, maybe this game is not covered.
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You’re half right - it’s a couple of months old but was only available to DF Patreon subscribers.
mansoor1980
Member
i thought the dates on youtube were bugged , is it new/old?
thanks for the clarification
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Video is only for games on both (hence dude skewing results with exclusives in his posts, lol). I think that one's on PS as well actually, but it's so different they maybe didn't consider it the same, on Saturn it's cartoony, on PS it's a bit realistic/Ridge Racery. Here are some more running fine on Saturn.
(other than the name dropped Sega Rally, Manx TT and the like - which also ignores the herculean task of converting from such mega powerful hardware to the Saturn, where the Namco racers/fighters were much closer to the PS spec instead and experience with the board was just as useful on that)
(other than the name dropped Sega Rally, Manx TT and the like - which also ignores the herculean task of converting from such mega powerful hardware to the Saturn, where the Namco racers/fighters were much closer to the PS spec instead and experience with the board was just as useful on that)
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cireza
Member
The video is still probably an interesting watch, but obviously exclusive efforts should be taken into consideration to paint a better picture of each console at the same time period.
Racing games are about pushing full 3D visuals, which is not the strength of the Saturn. Yet I think the console had a very decent offering, especially considering the fact that ambitious developments eventually faded out of existence after 1996. Initial D is one of the later games that had actual time & effort invested in it, and it clearly shows (and the feeling in game is very good).
Yeah the date on YouTube says it came out yesterday, even on my YouTube history from when I first watched it in August!
Lysandros
Member
1996 (Japan). I agree, that's a very relevant example, Rage racer is gorgeous. I think that's the most 'arcade perfect/at home' 'feeling' racer of the machine even being a PS1 exclusive. And i think it remains unmatched for sheer amount of track detail coupled with very stable frame rate (locked 30?) with sense of speed which is even superior to RR4. Very stable geometry at that, virtually "software" Z-buffered (just like RR4).
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Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
The answer is a resounding yes, the concept of maxout is complex because a given game can be operating at almost 100% and be uglier than one operating at 70% or two games being at 100%, one of them being prettier. In short, the beauty of a game does not reflect the internal use of the components.The Sega Saturn is full of bottlenecks, so it is almost impossible to maximize the use of vram, ram and processors at the same time, so games with 100% on one component can result in 67% on another, due to the bottleneck for all effects these 67% are also 100%.That said Daytona usa, Panzer Dragoon and Virtua Fighter remix were already almost at the limit of what the machine is capable of, same with Rad Mobile, Ghen war and high velocity.
Wolzard
Member
I don't disagree that polygonal graphics opened up a new level for the racing genre. I just think most of them were experimental, like a lot of games from this era, a lot of them were pretty rough and ugly.
My point is that this generation should have had a smoother transition, with some games using polygons and other sprites and not all polygons.
It's like the comparison I made with the current generation. They are putting ray tracing in games, because of the novelty, but making the games run in 720p at 30 fps with drops.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Early on in the Saturn’s lifespan there were many games that mixed polygonal scenery with sprite characters
Most are regarded as some of the worst games on the system
Phobos Base
Member
Still remember being awed about driving up the hill past the waterfall, into the tunnel, then down the steep slope on the other side. Although it always felt to me the more realistic look was at odds with the arcade style handling.
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