Bailey's Dad
Banned
I've been asking this for sometime with no luck. I know it isn't finished yet but the graphics engine should be. Anyone play it at e3?
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Does Jak 3 have tearing or not?
- Thread starter Bailey's Dad
- Start date
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I can tell from the videos that it has some (at least in the preview build). Now, the biggest tearing zone in Jak 2 was the hub city. The hub in Jak 3 is the desert, and in the videos where action took place in the desert, there wasn't any tearing. I saw it in the video that had Jak flying over some big, very detailed construction where you had to destroy some power units or something.
Bailey's Dad
Banned
I hate when devs 'up' details etc instead of fixing problems. So what if Jak 3 has more detail than Jak 2, I don't care. I want a constant 60fps. I emailed NDog about this and they think more detail is a fair trade off for the tearing. Again, I don't.
Graphics
Jak 1 > Jak 2
I hate tearing.
This reminds me of my thoughts on Goldeneye/Perfect Dark. I like pretty much everyone loved Goldeneye and the only thing I wanted to be improved was the framerate. But what do Rare do? They go and increase the detail etc and leave us with a low framerate for PD. Idiots.
This also applies to Rockstar and GTA SA. I don't care about '6 times the draw distance', I want it locked at 30fps. Extra detail be dammed.
End rant.
Graphics
Jak 1 > Jak 2
I hate tearing.
This reminds me of my thoughts on Goldeneye/Perfect Dark. I like pretty much everyone loved Goldeneye and the only thing I wanted to be improved was the framerate. But what do Rare do? They go and increase the detail etc and leave us with a low framerate for PD. Idiots.
This also applies to Rockstar and GTA SA. I don't care about '6 times the draw distance', I want it locked at 30fps. Extra detail be dammed.
End rant.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
IMO, it's a small thing to pay for not only more detail, but way better image quality and progressive scan support. Slowdowns and tearing, are IMO preferrable to frame skipping, as they keep the smoothness of motion.
The screen tearing IMO is a better way of handling slowdown than the other methods available in PS2 games (slowdown, frame skipping, lower resolution, etc.) and as akward as it seems, I noticed it most of all when there was VERY LITTLE going on in the screen (talking about when a wall filled 90%) which happened in Jak&Daxter as well though that game would dump the resolution to about 60*40 IIRC :b
I don't remember tearing in Ninja Gaiden but I do remember some serious slowdown in very rare situations...one such situation showed me how NG (Team Ninja in general, really) achieves it's reflections due to a messed up camera angle -- There's a room with identical architecture underneath you, and the 'reflections' are really transpearant spots on the floor.
Rememeber Shadow Warrior using a similar method so I don't know why I didn't imediately know it was that when I noticed the characters where never reflected in Team Ninja games...but I think it's a nice bit of useless info :b
Rememeber Shadow Warrior using a similar method so I don't know why I didn't imediately know it was that when I noticed the characters where never reflected in Team Ninja games...but I think it's a nice bit of useless info :b
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Gattsu25 said:
Tons of games do reflections that way: Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness uses the same technique.
Shompola said:
Yes, you are correct. Ninja Gaiden does have vertical sync set to off. In fact, if you run directly behind the starting point (while still facing the same direction), you will see tearing. It isn't that common, but it can happen...along with slowdown.
I'm not exactly sure what screen tearing looks like. Could someone post a picture of it?
I noticed some funky graphic things in Ninja Gaiden, though.
Someone care to explain this a bit more?: "one such situation showed me how NG achieves it's reflections due to a messed up camera angle -- There's a room with identical architecture underneath you, and the 'reflections' are really transpearant spots on the floor."
I noticed some funky graphic things in Ninja Gaiden, though.
Someone care to explain this a bit more?: "one such situation showed me how NG achieves it's reflections due to a messed up camera angle -- There's a room with identical architecture underneath you, and the 'reflections' are really transpearant spots on the floor."
Gattsu25 said:
Guts, are you actually aware of why the screen resolution issue occurs? That could not possibly happen with Jak 2 or 3, as they run in a different resolution. That issue crops up when a game is displayed in a field rendered mode (which alternate odd and even scanlines at a quick rate). You end up only seeing half of the screen image per second, but it switches very quickly in order to APPEAR higher resolution. When the resolution drops, the game is basically unable to draw the screen as normal and you only see half of the image.
Well, that's a pretty crude description I suppose...
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
A lot of good looking games resorts to tearing, and it seems like there's more an more of them. First time I've noticed that in a console game was in MGS2, but now it seems like every other game has it.
Yeah, but I was referring more to most PS2 games when I talked about Greatly Lowered Resolution and Riddick when I said Slightly (Riddick's ranges inbetween the 2 depending on the scene)
That last post was a general slowdown thing and not really related to the Jak series :\
EDIT: just to clarify...I am aware of the full/half buffer cause for resolution changes but I'm more talking about the general intensity of the change and not the cause...I'm pretty sure that point was not presented well if at all, but such is to be expected with my akward "type as the thoughts flow" style that I have ¬_¬
That last post was a general slowdown thing and not really related to the Jak series :\
EDIT: just to clarify...I am aware of the full/half buffer cause for resolution changes but I'm more talking about the general intensity of the change and not the cause...I'm pretty sure that point was not presented well if at all, but such is to be expected with my akward "type as the thoughts flow" style that I have ¬_¬
Screen tearing results from the concession that the game won't be doing its job properly even before it tries. The decision is made to noticeably trade off quality for the sustaining of extra graphic complexity instead of actually tuning that scene complexity within the abilities of the system. A really polished game doesn't need such an obvious crutch.
Lazy8s said:
Considering that two of the absolute most polished games released this gen both suffer from screen tearing at various junctions, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you.
THAT is completely different, though. Riddick's low resolution appearance was the result of a framebuffer effect gone bad. The actual screen resolution was not changing as a result of what was present on the screen. It was simply some sort of depth of field effect that just happened to look terrible. Effects of this type can vary quite heavily depending on how they are created. Wind Waker actually has the same problem, to a much smaller extent. In 480p, the depth of field in WW gives the same impression as Riddick (only to a much lesser extent).
Lazy8s, replace screen tearing with tearing/slowdown/frame-skipping
The thing is (I already mentioned this) that i've only experienced slowdown-related issues in the Jak series when nothing was going on
Still, while you might find tearing to be the worst offendor others find it more tolerable. In my opinion, locked frame-rates without any of these shortcuts or shortcomings is the way to go, but is also pretty rare in the industry. Instead of focusing on the type of this issue that offends you the most, we should be able to influence developers to not have to ever worry about these and develop games that feature locked and unfaultering framerates...and the only way I can see this happening is for us to encourage all developers to properly test and design their games AND for US to stop being blatant graphic whores...two things that will NEVER happen.
The thing is (I already mentioned this) that i've only experienced slowdown-related issues in the Jak series when nothing was going on
Still, while you might find tearing to be the worst offendor others find it more tolerable. In my opinion, locked frame-rates without any of these shortcuts or shortcomings is the way to go, but is also pretty rare in the industry. Instead of focusing on the type of this issue that offends you the most, we should be able to influence developers to not have to ever worry about these and develop games that feature locked and unfaultering framerates...and the only way I can see this happening is for us to encourage all developers to properly test and design their games AND for US to stop being blatant graphic whores...two things that will NEVER happen.
In many genres, I don't think it is completely possible to eliminate ALL slowdown. Metroid Prime runs at 60 fps a good 98-99% of the time...but there are certain situations that can occur where you will see 30 fps. In a game with freely adjustable viewpoint and character movement, I don't think you will ever escape the occasional slowdown. It just isn't worth the effort to optimize beyond that...
dark10x:
Even the manufacturers agree that development for their platforms should conform to certain basic standards as they have guidlines for the handling of specifics in image output, v-synch, save file utilities, etc. - not that developers do a good job of following them, though.
There's nothing to disagree with. An image that is ripping apart is not an example of polish. It's nice that the rest a game looks mostly good, but there are plenty of graphical showcase titles that manage to have progressive scan and a v-synched image.
Even the manufacturers agree that development for their platforms should conform to certain basic standards as they have guidlines for the handling of specifics in image output, v-synch, save file utilities, etc. - not that developers do a good job of following them, though.
Agreed, one of the points I was trying to make is that slowdown, in one form or another, will always be around as long as gamers continue to demand advanced visuals and developers don't spend 15 months doing nothing but killing bugs.
People seem to be fine with most slowdown related issues as they've become accustomed to them (hell, tons of people don't even NOTICE them)
People seem to be fine with most slowdown related issues as they've become accustomed to them (hell, tons of people don't even NOTICE them)
Lazy8s said:
...and cutting the framerate in half IS acceptable? Subjective, I'm afraid.
Metroid Prime, MGS2, and Ninja Gaiden each have very slight display flaws. There is mild tearing present in MGS2 and Gaiden and the framerate will drop to 30 fps at various points in Prime. Your statement suggest that, as a result of these rare flaws, these games should not be considered polished. Framerate is far from the only factor that should be taken into account when discussing visual "polish", and it is within those OTHER aspects outside of framerate that these games manage to do better than virtually every other title released this gen. Even still, they hold 60 fps AT LEAST 95% of the time. If those games are not examples of polish, I don't know what is...
Which games do YOU feel are polished then? I can't think of a single title COMPLETELY devoid of a rendering hiccup of some sort.
I'm sorry, but your statement IS something to disagree with.
Console games don't "suffer" from tearing. The fact that they run with V-Sync disabled is always a conscious decision to tradeoff of image quality for smaller framerate drops.dark10x said:
Which tradeoff is better is debatable - whether tearing is present on purpose, is not.
And in the mean of what Gattsu says, there will always be slowdown/tearing or whatever. Simply because they push their engine to the limit. Jak2 is a very polished game. Of course you see tearing but god damned, their engine is pushing the PS2 as fuck!
Developers tend to push their effort to the short edge just before good becomes bad. ----> so there's always some graphic/speed/whatever issue somehow.
Developers tend to push their effort to the short edge just before good becomes bad. ----> so there's always some graphic/speed/whatever issue somehow.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fafalada said:Console games don't "suffer" from tearing. The fact that they run with V-Sync disabled is always a conscious decision to tradeoff of image quality for smaller framerate drops.
Which tradeoff is better is debatable - whether tearing is present on purpose, is not.
Hey, maybe the programmer thought that
int DisableVSynch;
would have been enabled to 0 by the compiler, but didn't.
It is...a remote.... possibility.
*whistling*
dark10x:
That was never implied. The point was about not building a game off of a foundation of unnecessary compromise.
No, it suggests that a polished game minimizes the occurance of every kind of glitch. Those three games are definitely more polished than most, but it doesn't mean good optimization can't yeild both good speed and IQ.
The Dreamcast version of Soul Calibur was really nice. The later revisions of DOA2 for DC in Japan, F-Zero GC, and Panzer Dragoon Orta are tight visual packages.
They are all games with a limited range of motions, though...
While polished, the camera is constrained by the gameplay, which obviously makes optimization all that much easier. I had a feeling that your choices would fall into those gameplay types...but they are good selections regardless.
Obviously, detail was sacrificed for speed...which is not the case with NG, Prime, and MGS2. Those are all very detailed titles which still manage to run extremely well. Gaiden, for example, manages to toss around a number of characters (each more detailed than a single fighter in Soul Calibur DC) within geometrically dense environments with little effort. A little tearing here and there shouldn't be a problem...