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[Mister Apoc]

has Max been more dominant than prime Lewis? is it because of his car mostly? im curious, I don't really follow F1 that much

 

[joeygreco1985]

I don't know, I used to think that Max had the best car by a large margin hands down but Sergio's results were so underwhelming last year that it makes me think Max can just drive the shit out of it and it's all talent.

But at the same time those prime Lewis years he was still beating his teammates and they were much better than Max's teammates.

 

[BossLackey]

I think it's too early to say. He's had a really dominant car obviously. At the moment, it's looking like Max has the potential to match Hamilton's dominance. Dude simply doesn't have an obvious weakness and is solid as a rock.

 

[FunkMiller]

Both are extremely talented drivers who have made the most out of cars that are leagues ahead of the competition.

Their runs have been equally boring for those of us who want close racing.

 

[AJUMP23]

Max is less annoying than Hamilton.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

What was Sergios point totals VS Hamiltons teammates point totals?

Then you'd have to compare how big of a gap there was between Hamilton/Verstappen and their respective teammates.

Then you look at the numbers and you know.

 

[mclaren777]

I think it's too early to say. He's had a really dominant car obviously. At the moment, it's looking like Max has the potential to match Hamilton's dominance. Dude simply doesn't have an obvious weakness and is solid as a rock.

This sums up my feelings perfectly. Max needs to have more teammates during his dominant era for us to compare against (Checo isn't enough).

However, the reality is that Max' career in F1 might not last too much longer so we could only have a few data points by the end. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[DJ12]

Max is the number 1 driver in his team, to the detriment of Sergio.

Every year Sergio starts like a house on fire competing and even beating Max, until they bring an update or two that suits what Max wants and then he gets left behind.

I also have a sneaky suspicion that Sergio doesn't get all the updates so they stay within the cost cap.

Max is good but in another team that treats their drivers equally he wouldn't do as well in my opinion.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Hamilton had world champions as his teammates, while Max has Checo who is just there to fill the spot. No one at Red Bull really cares about him it seems.

There where times where each race would be Ham/ Bottas 1/2.

So I would argue the cars are equally dominant. Ham just had a better co driver.

In a sport there fractions of a second determine grid placement having a dominant car in competent hands is a huge benefit. And if the car also fits the riding style of a competent driver. You get Ham/Max/Vettel domination.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Hamilton's overall dominance in terms of championships is in its own category. I won't go down that road yet with Max.


What I will say though is that Max did something this past year I've never seen before. Even at their PEAK elite drivers like Senna, Seb, Michael, and Lewis made mistakes. They would make errors in qualifying or in the races throughout the season that they would need to then make up for either in that race or in the coming races. Whether it was clipping a curb, catching a penalty, or choking in qualifying. You name it. Something would happen.


Max on the other hand drove a basically perfect season this past year. He never made any real mistakes that cost him. Not once did he ever clip a wall to take himself out or go to far and end up in the gravel. He drove like a fucking automaton out there this season. The one major mistake he did make where he clipped a curb and then immediately recovered from he fucking laughed about while in the middle of the race. Jokes about how he almost took himself out of the race WHILE STILL RACING.


The guy treats the sport like its a game to be played and he is the professional gamer. It's unreal. I don't think I've ever seen someone so absolutely dominant be so effortlessly casual about it. Usually everyone peacocks about or sniffs their own farts. Max meanwhile is boring by comparison. He never gets overly hyped and never screams or hollers. It's just across the finish line and "Good race today boys I really appreciate the effort from the team. GGs."


Max then just takes a few interviews, goes home to fuck Nelson Piquet's daughter, and play Sim Racing all day. Then comes back the next week and does it all again. The guy is just different.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Current Red Bull car is the best one on the grid, but I don't think it's as dominant as the Mercedes car during their top years. Max simply utilizes absolute maximum from the car and he doesn't make mistakes. Even back when RBR didn't have the car (or specifically - the engine) to compete with Mercedes for the championship he was still fighting with Bottas and often finishing ahead of him in P2.

It's true he generally had weaker teammates, but I think it's also because his driving style and setup preferences are different. Obviously the car is built around him so the second driver has to adapt.

 

[nbcjr]

Hamilton is 1000x better than Max, who only won that championship due to fraud.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Hamilton is 1000x better than Max, who only won that championship due to fraud.

It's been over 2 years.


It's time to move on lol

 

[DKehoe]

So is Hamilton past his prime? Just looked at his Wikipedia article and saw he’s 39 so I assume that’s the case?

 

[Saiyu]

So is Hamilton past his prime? Just looked at his Wikipedia article and saw he’s 39 so I assume that’s the case?

It's sure gonna be an interesting fight vs Leclerc.

 

[ForAcademicPurposes]

has Max been more dominant than prime Lewis? is it because of his car mostly? im curious, I don't really follow F1 that much

Ask Alex Albon:

 

[ForAcademicPurposes]

Hamilton is 1000x better than Max, who only won that championship due to fraud.

Deez nuts

 

[cormack12]

Max is a great driver in a great car, to compare we'd need another great driver in a great car and we haven't seen that yet in this era. Closest was probably an emerging Leclerc a couple of seasons ago but the reliability let him down. Most of the passes last season weren't even fought because it's pointless to gimp your own race for a few laps of excitement. Especially drivers like Norris and Leclerc.

At the end of the day you can only beat what's in front of you in your time, but the consistency of Max despite the dominance speaks to his skill and expertise. I do think he still has an issue with diving and panicking when he gets pressured. That's diminished the last couple of season because clawing back time and position was inevtiable, but there was still flashes of stupid Max, racing like he was in the sim world and he could just cut off everyone. Yet in the same situations he bitches like crazy - quick recollections include crushing Leclerc into the wall almost, and parking across the corner when Sergio pushed him out onto the grass. Technically they sit within the hairs width of the rules, but I think given his level of dominance these things are beneath him and the fact he still does them leads me to believe if Lewis had a capable car we'd still have seen a lot of incidents and controversy.

Lewis has his own issues with crying though. Crying about tyres, crying about being unsafe etc. I hope he gets one final run with a good Ferrari engine to get number 8, just because it's good for the sport. But I want it earned against an in form Max. Then I want to spend the next few years watching Max try to break that record. Both great drivers.

 

[xrnzaaas]

So is Hamilton past his prime? Just looked at his Wikipedia article and saw he’s 39 so I assume that’s the case?

No he's not, he's still a very fast driver, just like Fernando. Kimi was way past his prime when he retired and currently the same thing seems to be happening with Bottas (I don't think it's just Alfa/Sauber being slow).

 

[Tomeru]

Deez nuts

A good car helped him tremendously. And versus tge others, his his car is leagues above good.

Part of why F1 is on a boring streak.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Max also only really has 1 title. Had it not been for new regulations he would not even have that one.

But I’m a Max fan, and want him in a competitive season where the other top teams have a comparable car to him.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Tangential question...why does F1 and their advertisers think black carbon fiber makes for a good viewing experience? These cars should be dominated by primary colors. I don't get who benefits from all the black.

 

[twilo99]

At least Hamilton had to deal with slightly better teammates..

In terms of talent they are both top tier, but really, there a few other drivers who would’ve achieved the same exact results given the machinery HAM and VER had at their disposal.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Tangential question...why does F1 and their advertisers think black carbon fiber makes for a good viewing experience? These cars should be dominated by primary colors. I don't get who benefits from all the black.

This is all about losing bits of weight from not having to cover the entire car with paint. Obviously not all sponsors will be happy so I imagine teams have tough negotations with them how much space on the car they need for their logos.

 

[twilo99]

Pathetic this year but I think the at least Ferrari won’t have much bare carbon on it

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

This is all about losing bits of weight from not having to cover the entire car with paint. Obviously not all sponsors will be happy so I imagine teams have tough negotations with them how much space on the car they need for their logos.

I just don't get why anyone cares about the weight reduction if everyone is subject to it. It doesn't provide an advantage, only uglier, less descript cars. Viewers can't appreciate the .137 second reduction in lap times. They can appreciate more appealing visuals.

 

[Nobody_Important]

A good car helped him tremendously. And versus tge others, his his car is leagues above good.

Part of why F1 is on a boring streak.

You could say the same about any dominant driver though. The car always helps.

 

[thuGG_pl]

In my view Max is head and shoulders above anyone else. Including Hamilton.

 

[thuGG_pl]

Hamilton is 1000x better than Max, who only won that championship due to fraud.

Fraud would be if Hamilton won, they (Merc) eliminated Max from two races, possibly two wins - Silverstone and Budapest. It's what put Hamilton into contention again.

 

[Tomeru]

You could say the same about any dominant driver though. The car always helps.

Maybe, but compare how easier or harder it is to drive an f1 car today vs 10 and 20 years ago.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

I missed the Hamilton era, but I want to think he was and would be better in a car. Max has a technical skills that are unmatched, but I don’t know he is an amazing racer. People just get out of the way of his dominant car at this point.

Put em all in trash and see where the chips fall. Lewis also be old, but I think he would win.

 

[ForAcademicPurposes]

A good car helped him tremendously. And versus tge others, his his car is leagues above good.

Part of why F1 is on a boring streak.

What is Perez's excuse then?

 

[thuGG_pl]

I missed the Hamilton era, but I want to think he was and would be better in a car. Max has a technical skills that are unmatched, but I don’t know he is an amazing racer. People just get out of the way of his dominant car at this point.

Same thing can be said about Hamilton.

 

[cormack12]

I just don't get why anyone cares about the weight reduction if everyone is subject to it. It doesn't provide an advantage, only uglier, less descript cars. Viewers can't appreciate the .137 second reduction in lap times. They can appreciate more appealing visuals.

Is this /s? You absolutely can appreciate the difference in lap times as the gaps are built over 5-10 laps. Whether it's F1 or the BTCC. In person, trackside. Seeing a driver eke out a tenth each lap is quite something, seeing them just get out of DRS is even better.

The paint obviously has a weight. I think on a road car it's about 20kg, in F1 its about 2kg (partial livery). The whole upgrade cycle is usually built around lightening the car amd improving aero. 2kg can be worth a couple of tenths or more (https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-three-tenths-2kg-weight-loss-w14). Add that to maybe losing 2kg from the chassis and you're up to massive multiplicative gains.

Let's say Red Bull are out there, and quali pace is separated by .197 from Mclaren. And Mclaren can get .120 back from paint reduction they're going to do it cos it's cheap and easy. Which means RB would respond in kind (these ain't real world numbers just exhibits).

Its why they have driver ballast so you can't just get a Yuki Tsunoda and get a 10kg weight advantage. You're trying to move the combined weight of the driver and car as fast as possible.

 

[Rengoku]

Ask Alex Albon:

EDIT: nvm, saw this vid posted earlier. Great breakdown

Peter Windsor also has a great analysis of Max's driving style:

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Is this /s? You absolutely can appreciate the difference in lap times as the gaps are built over 5-10 laps.

You absolutely can not. If the lap times weren't posted, viewers wouldn't know how fast anyone was going.

F1 doesn't benefit from a 1:47:279 lap time any more than it benefits from a 1:47:623 lap time.

The black carbon fiber only makes the sport less appealing to the eye. There's no benefit from the viewer perspective.

 

[Tomeru]

What is Perez's excuse then?

Max is a great driver, yes.

 

[cormack12]

You absolutely can not. If the lap times weren't posted, viewers wouldn't know how fast anyone was going.

F1 doesn't benefit from a 1:47:279 lap time any more than it benefits from a 1:47:623 lap time.

The black carbon fiber only makes the sport less appealing to the eye. There's no benefit from the viewer perspective.

If you have one car on the track way out in front or if they are a back marker maybe. But I'm talking about actual racing where cars are close. You can visually see gaps increase each time they come past the grandstands.

They are not posting lap times to benefit F1? As an entrant, their directives are clear. Build a car that is the faster than everyone else, that meets a minimum weight, is within regulations and safety standards.

Why do so many people watch F1 as opposed to 1.1 eco corsas?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Maybe, but compare how easier or harder it is to drive an f1 car today vs 10 and 20 years ago.

Well duh. The amount of innovations made in the last twenty years is insane. Especially safety wise. But you still have to be a world class driver in order to win in Formula 1. The car doesn't drive itself.


Max is the best driver in the world at the moment. If he gets another championship then he will be in the conversation with Lewis and the rest of them.

 

[The Stig]

Both are extremely talented drivers who have made the most out of cars that are leagues ahead of the competition.

Their runs have been equally boring for those of us who want close racing.

this is an accurate description.

also could be said about Vettel?

 

[Spyxos]

I only know F1 from Drive to survive. But wouldn't it be more exciting if everyone had the same car and you dominated through skill and not because your car is significantly better than the others.?

 

[cormack12]

I only know F1 from Drive to survive. But wouldn't it be more exciting if everyone had the same car and you dominated through skill and not because your car is significantly better than the others.?

That's exactly what Formula 1 is though:

Formula 1 is called so because it refers to the set of rules and regulations that govern the sport of top-tier international single-seater auto racing. The "formula" in Formula 1 refers to these regulations that dictate the specifications of the cars, including engine size, weight, and other technical details. The "1" signifies that it is the premier class of racing, indicating it's the highest level of competition in the world of motorsports.

Basically it's not just who can drive the fastest but which team can innovate, design and engineer the best car. It would actually be much more boring if every car was the same and there weren't the nuances like variable deg, downforce, chassis, suspension rods etc.

You might be interested in following A2RL in April which would be an approximate simulation of what you're suggesting though

 

[ForAcademicPurposes]

 

[xrnzaaas]

I just don't get why anyone cares about the weight reduction if everyone is subject to it. It doesn't provide an advantage, only uglier, less descript cars. Viewers can't appreciate the .137 second reduction in lap times. They can appreciate more appealing visuals.

Gaining even a single tenth can make a huge difference, especially since there are tracks where most of the field can be packed within a second and suddenly you can achieve a better result in qualiyfing.

Being even slightly faster over a single lap is also crucial in the race. This sport isn't only about moment to moment racing. It's also about working on keeping your opponents out of DRS range, being smart & effective in attacking those ahead, keeping a steady pace, maintaining your tyres and their temperatures, managing the fuel load, making constant changes to the setup, finding good setups for various tracks, adapting the cars to the driving styles of the drivers and tons of other things.

Some of this stuff may not be very easy to read for the newbies, however I think since Liberty Media took over F1 is more welcoming to new viewers. The more you learn the more you can appreciate even minor improvements to how a certain team is performing.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I must not be explaining myself correctly.

I'm suggesting that the black carbon fiber rule should be eliminated so the cars can be pretty. I understand that it's used to go faster, but when all the cars have so much black on them it makes for a less visually appealing experience.

 

[Papa_Wisdom]

Both of them are and were incredibly boring, just like the Schumacher era.

I love formula 1, the races are (mostly) fun to watch from pretty much p2 onwards. Thank got got mclaren and their drivers for at least making the second half of last season somewhat interesting when I came to race wins.

Not to say that red bull and max don’t deserve it as they have the better package and max is a world class driver but I’m hoping for a little more actual competition at the front end.

If anything the most exciting thing is Hamilton when he goes to Ferrari. (And I’m not even a Hamilton fan at all)

Dunno if they will give him a championship winning car but his influence and knowledge will def make them a better team and more competitive. Like Alonso at AM (imagine if they could get rid of stroll and get some actual talent in that car)

 

[thuGG_pl]

I only know F1 from Drive to survive. But wouldn't it be more exciting if everyone had the same car and you dominated through skill and not because your car is significantly better than the others.?

That would be defying the origins and nature of F1.

 

[thuGG_pl]

I must not be explaining myself correctly.

I'm suggesting that the black carbon fiber rule should be eliminated so the cars can be pretty. I understand that it's used to go faster, but when all the cars have so much black on them it makes for a less visually appealing experience.

Black carbon fiber rule? There is no such thing, it's just the color of pure carbon fiber, then there is the decision not to paint it to save weight. There are no rules behind it.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Black carbon fiber rule? There is no such thing, it's just the color of pure carbon fiber, then there is the decision not to paint it to save weight. There are no rules behind it.

I'm sure there was some rule change 2 or 3 years ago because that's when everyone used it as much as possible. Carbon fiber is a lot older than that.

 

[Azzurri]

I'm a very casual F1 viewer, but I'm not a fan of Verstappen, no doubt he's a top or the best driver right now, but he comes off as a douche.

It might be because I'm a fan of Ferrari and hoping Hamilton can win once he's driving for Ferrari.