• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

I'm sorry, but I'm good on visual fidelity. Focus on simulation fidelity instead.

HL3.exe

Member
The last generation of consoles and the current one have made me realize what I truly enjoy about games: physicality and simulation fidelity, and it's something that has stagnated for the last 15+ years. These past two generations barely made any progress in that area.

I love games with solid reactive ragdoll physics and the ability to solve situations through physics. I enjoy when something accidental happens because of dynamic emergent systems. In the early 2000s, when physics in games were still in their infancy, developers experimented with fun details and interactions with the game world, creating replay value through dynamic systems. I vividly remember being amazed by Max Payne 2's ragdolls and elaborate physics setups, which made me constantly quick load to replay certain sections and enjoy its physicality. I can't remember a recent game where I did a similar thing, just messing around with new types of simulated systems or a dynamically reactive world. I love visually impressive games from this generation too, don't get me wrong, but while visuals have progressed more and more over the year, the underlying simulation complexity has dramatically stagnated over the years.

The 2000s were a great time for physicality in games. From Half-Life 2 and Garry's Mod to Crysis with its destructible world and reactive AI to GTA IV and its still-impressive Euphoria physics, at the time it felt like things could only get better and better. I remember seeing demos of DMM (molecular game-physics dependent on the material type) and new physics-driven animation concepts. However, around the early 2010s, advancements in physicality in games seemed to stall.



One of the reasons physics saw such a leap in games was due to tremendous advancements in single-threaded CPU speeds, which only seemed to go up and up. Game simulation logic (still to this day) runs mostly on a single core due to deterministic reasons. I remember Intel was expecting 10GHz CPUs by 2011, but that didn't happen because of physical, thermal, and power draw limits of the hardware. Instead, we went for multicore CPUs, which is great for pretty much all software that can operate non-sequentially in parallel. But with games running simulations at runtime, that isn't really the case. All non-game-logic essential stuff can be offloaded to other cores (which is still hard to do), but the core simulation still has to run on one fast main thread.

With the rise of the 8th generation of consoles and their admittedly weak CPUs (from a single-threaded standpoint, which is crucial for deterministic physics calculations), and because of the incredible rising costs and risks of game development, we saw a shift towards more cosmetic improvements.

Games became visually impressive but mostly static in terms of physicality. Interactables in games became specifically highlighted, and most random items were bolted to the floor for performance and simulation stability. But personally, I don't care for visual stability anymore. I want to play fun games where I can mess around and create fun within a reactive world. Game's like BOTW/TOTK felt like a continuation of the 2000's physics era, games like Red Dead Redemption 2 brought back some of this with Euphoria and solid collision modeling, but it's more of the same and not really a leap like the 5th -> 6th -> 7th gen days.

It's even worse for games like Far Cry. Crytek focused heavily on physicalized gameplay in Far Cry 1 and Crysis, and Ubisoft made a great effort with Far Cry 2. But especially after Far Cry 5, their game worlds became more static and predictable.


I'm skipping over a lot of games from that era to the current era, but you probably get my point. I get the feeling I'm not the only one noticing this. I recently finished Hellblade 2 and am currently playing Ghost of Tsushima. Even though I liked both games and they look visually spectacular (especially Hellblade 2), it's really disheartening that they (especially GoT) barely have any simulated physicality in the games. Hell, Ghost of Tsushima doesn't even have ragdoll physics, so bodies awkwardly float in the air off of a cliff, like it's 2002.

Anyway, I'm still positive and hoping for better days. Also, don't forget that indies are picking up some of the AAA stagnation slack with games like Teardown. But still, I would love to see interesting, meaningful simulation leaps in big-budget games like they used to push. That's what AAA used to stand for—pushing boundaries. This couldn't be further from the truth these days. Ubisoft is seemingly still working a leap in physicalized animation, so i'm hoping we see something like this shippable in a game.

 
Last edited:

Doom85

Member
Bored Episode 15 GIF by The Simpsons


Unless it’s a core concept of the game like Hulk: Ultimate Destruction where destroying anything you want is a major feature, I feel that sort of focus adds just as if not even more development time as graphics does when it’s something most games would be fine without IMHO. Again, I’m not saying it shouldn’t have a place, but it would be something I’d barely notice in most games.

Like, the reason for a lot of people to tone down the focus on graphics is to lower development time/cost so everyone wins, we get games out faster and developers don’t need as many sales to make more games and stay in business. But if we just replace it with something new for all the games to overly focus on, we’re back to square one. Just focus on making your game fun and engaging in what it is trying to do, there’s no universal “no, all games need this!” element.

Maybe you weren’t meaning it that way and you know it’s something select games should focus on, it’s just the bringing up of graphics made me feel like you were suggesting it that way.
 
I'm with you. Part of the reason for physics stagnation has been because of the emergent gameplay it invokes. TotK made it look easy, but a lot of weird shit happens with a physics engine operating on most/all objects. It doesn't help that graphical assets are designed with pre-set animations in mind. It's why a lot of bigger games feel like they are constantly ripping control of the game out of your hands - they need to be able to control everything about that animation or something will go wrong.

It's no a quick and easy fix, unfortunately. Game engines are designed with certain goals in mind, you need the tool makers to prioritize physics. When it hurts performance or takes extra effort to develop around, it's clear companies do not want to invest much time and money in this realm unless the game itself is based around it (Portal is the poster child).
 

HL3.exe

Member
Bored Episode 15 GIF by The Simpsons


Unless it’s a core concept of the game like Hulk: Ultimate Destruction where destroying anything you want is a major feature, I feel that sort of focus adds just as if not even more development time as graphics does when it’s something most games would be fine without IMHO. Again, I’m not saying it shouldn’t have a place, but it would be something I’d barely notice in most games.

Like, the reason for a lot of people to tone down the focus on graphics is to lower development time/cost so everyone wins, we get games out faster and developers don’t need as many sales to make more games and stay in business. But if we just replace it with something new for all the games to overly focus on, we’re back to square one. Just focus on making your game fun and engaging in what it is trying to do, there’s no universal “no, all games need this!” element.

Maybe you weren’t meaning it that way and you know it’s something select games should focus on, it’s just the bringing up of graphics made me feel like you were suggesting it that way.
Think you might be missing the point a bit. Physicality doesnt mean 'destruction' (several examples above like physicalized animation or emergent problem solving). My point is that tech is moving forward in a specific way (mainly GPU oriented) instead of the more broad emergent systems data-driven way it seemed to be going in the 2000's. (With the emergents of several middleware companies like Havok, Bullet, Euphoria, DMM, etc focussing on evolving collisions based tech approaches)

You're right in that I'm not saying 'all games should', but that's a strawman argument anyway haha. And I completely agree with your cost risk avers assessment. Companies rather go for a safe and smooth production cycle. But i'm all for data-driven progress which all games could benefit from, which is currently not the case unfortunately.
 
Last edited:

Alebrije

Member
Maybe devs just don't know how to program/code for shit like this anymore.
If the trending is the same Believe me that for PS10 You Will have 200 teraflops of power plus engines that Will let You have photorealistic games ...but with. The same physics, AI, enviroment and gameplay that have PS3 games.
 

feynoob

Banned
A medium of a bunch of fortnites and hero shooters would be absolutely trash.
At least fortnite is a fun game, which people enjoy to play and not snoozing fezt that makes you go sleep with boring story.
We are in this mess because gamers want 100 hour games for $20 dollars.
Because those games are full of shit graphics and boring stories.
 

Represent.

Represent(ative) of bad opinions
At least fortnite is a fun game, which people enjoy to play and not snoozing fezt that makes you go sleep with boring story.

Because those games are full of shit graphics and boring stories.
we need both these style of games.

fortnite puts me to sleep, i don't play just games JUST for fun - i like experiences.

if i have to see another fucking hero shooter be all the rage im going to vomit
 

TintoConCasera

I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Back on the early 2000s videogames were still a hobby for nerds. Someone would come out on stage, show you a demo of Half-Life 2 physics and everyone would piss and shit their pants in place.

Nowadays gaming has become way more mainstream, and my guess is that the average videogame consumer doesn't care or even know about AI, physics, that cool fire propagation in FarCry 2, etc. Most care about stories and graphics, which is why we still play the same games as 10 years ago, just looking a bit better.

Because sure, game companies could invest on better AI, better physics and whatnot. But that doesn't sell. Cool screenshots and bombastic trailers do, so I don't see any AAA investing in this kind of stuff unless it's the main hook of the game, like with Zelda TOTK, which really isn't that impressive when you consider we were seeing this stuff in Garrys Mod many years ago.
 
Last edited:

feynoob

Banned
we need both these style of games.

fortnite puts me to sleep, i don't play just games JUST for fun - i like experiences.
But doesnt change the fact that it is an actual game with fun gameplay.
if i have to see another fucking hero shooter be all the rage im going to vomit
Its part of the game. Only thing I would agree is if they do the same shit and not do different stuff.

Cinematic experience is great, if the gameplay is actually good. But when your only advantage is story, then you arent making a game.
 
Last edited:

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
i think devs dont do that because most gamers have a short attention span and have no patience
 
I agree about graphics being great as they are now and would just like games to be games and not movies. I like great stories as much as the next person but not to the detriment of great gameplay.
 
Some don't seem to get this but Ray-Tracing/Path-Tracing when used from the ground up can enhance gameplay

Sorry i have to disagree with this.

In what way can ray/path tracing enhance games over destructible cover, realistic npc enemy ai, weapon sway/recoil etc. to name a few. These different elements not only enhance gameplay but provides a more immersive believable game world.
 

Fbh

Member
Graphics are such a waste.
Even ignoring stuff like physics: Decent last gen graphics + good IQ + 60fps on modest hardware >>>>>>>>>>>>> next gen AAA graphics at 30fps and/or with ps3 era IQ.
 

HL3.exe

Member
Some don't seem to get this but Ray-Tracing/Path-Tracing when used from the ground up can enhance gameplay
When it's integrated into it's actually game-logics and talking to each other so that path tracing features can have an effect on entity states, then yes.

Otherwise nah, it's just cosmetic.
 

onQ123

Member
Sorry i have to disagree with this.

In what way can ray/path tracing enhance games over destructible cover, realistic npc enemy ai, weapon sway/recoil etc. to name a few. These different elements not only enhance gameplay but provides a more immersive believable game world.
Because when you're using Ray-Tracing the objects have a physical space in the 3D world, that's data that can be used for gameplay
 

TintoConCasera

I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
This meme is pretty spot on actually. There really is a competency crisis in the game industry today.
Indeed there is. Game development has become as easy and accessible as it's ever been, yet developers seem to lack the talent or passion as those from years ago.

Or maybe they still have it, but the suits won't let them use that talent. Who knows.
 

Beechos

Member
I actually wonder what the ratio is nowadays for a game dev studio.

Like what percentage are programmers, artists, designers, etc....
 

Doom85

Member
Think you might be missing the point a bit. Physicality doesnt mean 'destruction' (several examples above like physicalized animation or emergent problem solving).

I’m aware of that, my point was the Hulk game had it as a core concept so it made sense to focus on it for that game. I just personally don’t care about stuff like that unless it seems really necessary for the game. Like, some might roll their eyes if they walk into an Elden Ring NPC and the NPC doesn’t move at all, but it means nothing to me personally. I’d rather the team focus on the combat, level design, art design, etc., to me that’s what matters. I’m immersed because of the amazing world they created, not because of how much of the world I can “interact” with. Like, if all the crates, barrels, etc. in the Soulsborne/ER games were just indestructible as opposed to breaking if you hit/roll onto them, it wouldn’t matter to me at all.

And honestly, rag doll physics on corpses/KO’d enemies sometimes break my immersion. I’d rather the game have them vanish/“disintegrate“ or something rather than having them move if if I happen to walk over them as I find it a visual distraction.

If you’re referring to stuff even outside of what I mentioned, then could you lay out all the possibilities?

To be clear, I’m not saying you can’t want this, just understand this might not be a desire for some gamers. We all have different desires/priorities when it comes to gaming.
 
Because when you're using Ray-Tracing the objects have a physical space in the 3D world, that's data that can be used for gameplay

If you look at the below is there any real difference to adding ray/path tracing?

Again I ask, how does this enhance a game if the NPC Ai is not smart enough to navigate the game world as an example. We had such examples when Cyberpunk launched and there's tons of videos to show the brain dead AI. No point looking photorealistic if the AI is something from the early 2000s.
That breaks the immersion of the game world.






maxresdefault.jpg
 
Last edited:

onQ123

Member
If you look at the below is there any real difference to adding ray/path tracing?

Again I ask, how does this enhance a game if the NPC Ai is not smart enough to navigate the game world as an example. We had such examples when Cyberpunk launched and there's tons of videos to show the brain dead AI. No point looking photorealistic if the AI is something from the early 2000s.
That breaks the immersion of the game world.






maxresdefault.jpg
You ignored the part when I said if the game is built from the ground up
 

SHA

Member
That's a lot of words to say the silicon material in 2024 is pos, I mean no offense, don't get me wrong, call me stupid but I actually thought for a long time, very long time actually, that the cost of what we pay for these parts goes to the material itself, it turned out I was fool and the cost 90% of it actually goes to labor.

It's not the end of the world cause at the end of the day it's a material topic, and you shouldn't second guess the future of tech, they're just waiting for the right time.
 
Last edited:

IAmRei

Member
If only company could try some focus on other than graphic and cinematic these days. They choose simpliest way, brute force through raw power for graphic to push cinematic instead, so normal people will instantly like it, pushing more buy than ever.

Far Cry 2 is my favorite among other far cry, FC3 is okay, but they are too arcade compared to FC2.



Last time i know that pushed physic, is BoTW ToTK. But the graphic and art style is not realistic style, might turn off some people.
 
You ignored the part when I said if the game is built from the ground up

That's not the post that I replied to but my point still stands. What point is having ray/path tracing when you're still dealing with brain dead AI and objects that don't react to you or NPC AI input? Realistic physical game world simulations can not only create dynamic game worlds that react realistically to your input but can open up whole new genres of games as well.
 

onQ123

Member
That's not the post that I replied to but my point still stands. What point is having ray/path tracing when you're still dealing with brain dead AI and objects that don't react to you or NPC AI input? Realistic physical game world simulations can not only create dynamic game worlds that react realistically to your input but can open up whole new genres of games as well.
Ray-Tracing can help make smarter AI players
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
Reading the threads about Hellblade 2, I'm like... I don't feel like I need to go much beyond RDR2, which came out when, in 2018? That game looks amazing. I just finished GOW Ragnarok and that game looked fantastic and ran on a PS4.

It's crazy that we got some really interesting physics on the Xbox 360 (Star Wars TFU, BFBC2, RFG) and then... Nothing. Until TOTK which runs on a shitty outdated tablet CPU. PS5 is a good 50x more powerful than all of these and nothing. Not every game needs these physics but there has to be more than another lighting and shadow pass on the GPU.
 
Last edited:
This will be the biggest thing for PS7.
This will happen eventually when the industry adopts ray tracing and the rendering of endless details.
I expected this generation to be more focused on element simulations and physics, but that didn't happen. Instead, Nintendo did it partially with ToTK.
We need this – for clothes to be simulated, not just baked animations. When you shoot them, tear them down, slice them, burn them, and wear them.
And fire to be prooper fire not just a zone that makes damage.
 

MrMephistoX

Gold Member
Everything doesn’t need to be destructible but to me COD is just ridiculous when you can’t even destroy a fucking box or shoot through a door.
 
This meme is pretty spot on actually. There really is a competency crisis in the game industry today.
It's gone from practically pioneers and nerds only to people who don't even know what they want to do in college, but have a very fixed idea in their heads as to what the gaming industry is like. It's the same as teenagers who want to become world famous singers. Or influencers.
 
Regardless if you prefer better graphics, physics, AI or something else - games also need to be fun, rewarding and engaging. That's something that's missing more and more often nowadays I think, even in highly praised games.
 

Robb

Gold Member
I definitely find physics have more potential to actually provide interesting gameplay mechanics. I also find it a way more interesting aspect than improved visuals.

But that said, RDR2 is one of the most boring “games” I’ve ever played. And I’m sure if more devs started to go the “physics-route”, it’d be more in line with that than anything else since everyone seem to want to go with “realism” all the time. In that case, I’d take the visual route any day of the week. At least the majority of games that lack heavy simulation are still fun to play.
 

hinch7

Member
I'm down with more interactivity and more realistic physics in games. So many of my favorite games have good physics systems in them that enables some creative (and fun) play. It doesn't even need to advance that much if at all from current Havok. And would rather devs put more emphasis on this or other gameplay mechanics, over presentation (visuals and audio). Or if devs are competant enough and have the resources and time, both.

Really looking forward to seeing how far Rockstar can push Euthoria engine in that aspect with GTA VI.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom