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[Veidt]

Second post in this thread is reserved. So please wait, till I put some more up.

The Islamic Civilization : [6th Century- circa 15th century]​

​

I realize there is already an Islamic thread. And this by all means isn't one. It's a thread to highlight Islamic contributions to humanity. There is no bitter argumentation needed. It's perhaps a way we can look into things on a deeper level. This isn't about debating whether Muslims are terrorists, or trying to prove that God exists. This is mainly, just a way for us to explore the Islamic civilization. To elaborate on things that we weren't taught in school. Much like one would explore the Greek civilization, or any other civilization that has paved the way for us, as humanity, to what we are today. And also am hoping someone who knows about other civilizations, makes an appropriate info packed thread for those too. Let's get on that! I can't wait to learn more about the Greeks and Egyptians, Romans ect.!

I hope this is allowed, since we might finally engage in a fruitful discourse where we learn new things, from old civilizations!


There is a huge and vast array of knowledge and scholarship within the Islamic culture. From arts, agriculture, economics, industry, law, literature, navigation, philosophy, sciences, sociology, to technology.


I've been doing some minor research in my free time ( which is getting less and less by the day ). And I was simply dumbfounded as to just how much richness there was, in this past civilization. I say this, because Islamic culture relatively no longer exists except for the food. But that's a discussion for another time, ay!

Consensus ad idem?

Off we go!


Islamic Ethics:
Humanism-

Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.

Certain aspects of Renaissance humanism has its roots in the medieval Islamic world, including the "art of dictation, called in Latin, ars dictaminis," and "the humanist attitude toward classical language", in this case classical Arabic.

Freedom Of Speech-

Another reason the Islamic world flourished during the Middle Ages was an early emphasis on freedom of speech. This was first declared in the Rashidun Caliphate by the second Caliph, Umar, in the 7th century:

"Only decide on the basis of proof, be kind to the weak so that they can express themselves freely and without fear, deal on an equal footing with litigants by trying to reconcile them."

Another such example can be found in a letter written by the fourth Caliph, Ali ibn Abi Talib to his governor of Egypt. The Caliph advices his governor on dealings with the poor masses thus;

"Out of your hours of work, fix a time for the complainants and for those who want to approach you with their grievances. During this time you should do no other work but hear them and pay attention to their complaints and grievances. For this purpose you must arrange public audience for them during this audience, for the sake of Allah, treat them with kindness, courtesy and respect. Do not let your army and police be in the audience hall at such times so that those who have grievances against your regime may speak to you freely, unreservedly and without fear."

Citizens of the Rashidun Caliphate were also free to criticize the Rashidun Caliphs, as the rule of law was binding on the head of state just as much as it was for the citizens.

According to George Makdisi and Hugh Goddard, "the idea of academic freedom" in universities was "modelled on Islamic custom" as practiced in the medieval Madrasah system from the 9th century. Islamic influence was "certainly discernible in the foundation of the first delibrately-planned university" in Europe, the University of Naples Federico II founded by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor in 1224.

Human Rights-

In the field of human rights, early Islamic jurists introduced a number of advanced legal concepts which anticipated similar modern concepts in the field. These included the notions of the charitable trust and the trusteeship of property; the notion of brotherhood and social solidarity; the notions of human dignity and the dignity of labour; the notion of an ideal law; the condemnation of antisocial behavior; the presumption of innocence; the notion of "bidding unto good" (assistance to those in distress); and the notions of sharing, caring, universalism, fair industrial relations, fair contract, commercial integrity, freedom from usury, women's rights, privacy, abuse of rights, juristic personality, individual freedom, equality before the law, legal representation, non-retroactivity, supremacy of the law, judicial independence, judicial impartiality, limited sovereignty, tolerance, and democratic participation. Many of these concepts were adopted in medieval Europe through contacts with Islamic Spain and the Emirate of Sicily, and through the Crusades and the Latin translations of the 12th century.

The concept of inalienable rights was found in early Islamic law and jurisprudence, which denied a ruler "the right to take away from his subjects certain rights which inhere in his or her person as a human being." Islamic rulers could not take away certain rights from their subjects on the basis that "they become rights by reason of the fact that they are given to a subject by a law and from a source which no ruler can question or alter". There is evidence that John Locke's formulation of inalienable rights and conditional rulership, which were present in Islamic law centuries earlier, may have also been influenced by Islamic law, through his attendance of lectures given by Edward Pococke, a professor of Islamic studies.

Rule of Law-

Islamic jurists anticipated the concept of the rule of law, the equal subjection of all classes to the ordinary law of the land, where no person is above the law and where officials and private citizens are under a duty to obey the same law. A Qadi (Islamic judge) was also not allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion, race, colour, kinship or prejudice. There were also a number of cases where Caliphs had to appear before judges as they prepared to take their verdict.

Drugs & NeuroEthics -

Neuroethics: Most ancient and medieval societies believed that mental illness was caused by either demonic possession or as punishment from a god, which led to a negative attitude towards mental illness in Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman societies. On the other hand, Islamic neuroethics and neurotheology held a more sympathetic attitude towards the mentally ill, as exemplified in Sura 4:5 of the Qur'an:[65]

"Do not give your property which God assigned you to manage to the insane: but feed and cloth the insane with this property and tell splendid words to him."[66]

This Quranic verse summarized Islam's attitudes towards the mentally ill, who were considered unfit to manage property but must be treated humanely and be kept under care by a guardian, according to Islamic law.[65] This positive neuroethical understanding of mental health consequently led to the establishment of the first psychiatric hospitals in the medieval Islamic world from the 8th century,[67] and an early scientific understanding of neuroscience and psychology by medieval Muslim physicians and psychologists, who discovered that mental disorders are caused by dysfunctions in the brain.[68]

Drugs

The earliest known prohibition of illegal drugs occurred under Islamic law, which prohibited the use of Hashish, a preparation of cannabis, as a recreational drug. Classical jurists in medieval Islamic jurisprudence, however, accepted the use of the Hashish drug for medicinal and therapeutic purposes, and agreed that its "medical use, even if it leads to mental derangement, remains exempt" from punishment. In the 14th century, the Islamic scholar Az-Zarkashi spoke of "the permissibility of its use for medical purposes if it is established that it is beneficial."


According to Mary Lynn Mathre, with "this legal distinction between the intoxicant and the medical uses of cannabis, medieval Muslim theologians were far ahead of present-day American law."

Welfare-

The concepts of welfare and pension were introduced in early Islamic law as forms of Zakat (charity), one of the Five Pillars of Islam, since the time of the Abbasid caliph Al-Mansur in the 8th century. The taxes (including Zakat and Jizya) collected in the treasury of an Islamic government was used to provide income for the needy, including the poor, elderly, orphans, widows, and the disabled. According to the Islamic jurist Al-Ghazali (Algazel, 1058-1111), the government was also expected to store up food supplies in every region in case a disaster or famine occurs. The Caliphate was thus one of the earliest welfare states.

Military ethics

The early Islamic treatises on international law from the 9th century onwards covered the application of Islamic ethics, Islamic economic jurisprudence and Islamic military jurisprudence to international law,and were concerned with a number of modern international law topics, including the law of treaties; the treatment of diplomats, hostages, refugees and prisoners of war; the right of asylum; conduct on the battlefield; protection of women, children and non-combatant civilians; contracts across the lines of battle; the use of poisonous weapons; and devastation of enemy territory.[70]

The Islamic legal principles of international law were mainly based on Qur'an and the Sunnah of Muhammad, who gave various injunctions to his forces and adopted practices toward the conduct of war. The most important of these were summarized by Muhammad's successor and close companion, Abu Bakr, in the form of ten rules for the Muslim army:[71]
Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.

Muslim jurists agree that Muslim armed forces must consist of debt-free adults who possess a sound mind and body. In addition, the combatants must not be conscripted, but rather enlist of their free will, and with the permission of their family.

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[Veidt]

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Sciences

The traditional view of Islamic science was that it was chiefly a preserver and transmitter of ancient knowledge. For example, Donald Lach argues that modern science originated in Europe as an amalgam of medieval technology and Greek learning.These views have been disputed in recent times, with some scholars suggesting that Muslim scientists laid the foundations for modern science, for their development of early scientific methods and an empirical, experimental and quantitative approach to scientific inquiry.Some scholars have referred to this period as a "Muslim scientific revolution", a term which expresses the view that Islam was the driving force behind the Muslim scientific achievements, and should not to be confused with the early modern European Scientific Revolution leading to the rise of modern science. Edward Grant argues that modern science was due to the cumulative efforts of the Hellenic, Islamic and Latin civilizations.

Scientific Method-

Early scientific methods were developed in the Islamic world, where significant progress in methodology was made, especially in the works of Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen) in the 11th century, who is considered the pioneer of experimental physics. The most important development of the scientific method was the use of experimentation and quantification to distinguish between competing scientific theories set within a generally empirical orientation. Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen) wrote the Book of Optics, in which he significantly reformed the field of optics, empirically proved that vision occurred because of light rays entering the eye, and invented the camera obscura to demonstrate the physical nature of light rays.[103][104]

Ibn al-Haytham has also been described as the "first scientist" for his introduction of the scientific method and his pioneering work on the psychology of visual perception is considered a precursor to psychophysics and experimental psychology.

Astronomy-

Advances in astronomy by the Maragha school and their predecessors and successors include the construction of the first observatory in Baghdad during the reign of Caliph al-Ma'mun, the collection and correction of previous astronomical data, resolving significant problems in the Ptolemaic model, the development of universal astrolabes, the invention of numerous other astronomical instruments, the beginning of astrophysics and celestial mechanics after Ja'far Muhammad ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir discovered that the heavenly bodies and celestial spheres were subject to the same physical laws as Earth, the first elaborate experiments related to astronomical phenomena and the first semantic distinction between astronomy and astrology by Abū al-Rayhān al-Bīrūnī,[113] the use of exacting empirical observations and experimental techniques,[114] the discovery that the celestial spheres are not solid and that the heavens are less dense than the air by Ibn al-Haytham,[115] the separation of natural philosophy from astronomy by Ibn al-Haytham and Ibn al-Shatir,[116] the first non-Ptolemaic models by Ibn al-Haytham and Mo'ayyeduddin Urdi, the rejection of the Ptolemaic model on empirical rather than philosophical grounds by Ibn al-Shatir,[4] the first empirical observational evidence of the Earth's rotation by Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī and Ali al-Qushji, and al-Birjandi's early hypothesis on "circular inertia."

-medieval manuscript by Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi (1236–1311), a Persian astronomer. The image depicts an epicyclic planetary model-

Several Muslim astronomers also considered the possibility of the Earth's rotation on its axis and perhaps a heliocentric solar system.It is known that the Copernican heliocentric model in Nicolaus Copernicus' De revolutionibus was adapted from the geocentric model of Ibn al-Shatir and the Maragha school (including the Tusi-couple) in a heliocentric context,[119] and that his arguments for the Earth's rotation were similar to those of Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī and Ali al-Qushji.

Chemistry-

Geber (Jabir ibn Hayyan) is considered a pioneer of chemistry, as he was responsible for introducing an early experimental scientific method within the field, as well as the alembic, still, retort, and the chemical processes of pure distillation, filtration, sublimation, liquefaction, crystallisation, purification, oxidisation and evaporation.

The study of traditional alchemy and the theory of the transmutation of metals were first refuted by al-Kindi,followed by Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī,Avicenna, and Ibn Khaldun. In his Doubts about Galen, al-Razi was the first to prove both Aristotle's theory of classical elements and Galen's theory of humorism false using an experimental method. Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī stated an early version of the law of conservation of mass, noting that a body of matter is able to change, but is not able to disappear. Alexander von Humboldt and Will Durant consider medieval Muslim chemists to be founders of chemistry.

Medicine

Muslim physicians made many significant contributions to medicine, including anatomy, experimental medicine, ophthalmology, pathology, the pharmaceutical sciences, physiology, surgery, etc. They also set up some of the earliest dedicated hospitals,including the first medical schoolsand psychiatric hospitals.Al-Kindi wrote the De Gradibus, in which he first demonstrated the application of quantification and mathematics to medicine and pharmacology, such as a mathematical scale to quantify the strength of drugs and the determination in advance of the most critical days of a patient's illness.Al-Razi (Rhazes) discovered measles and smallpox, and in his Doubts about Galen, proved Galen's humorism false.

Abu al-Qasim (Abulcasis) helped lay the foudations for modern surgery, with his Kitab al-Tasrif, in which he invented numerous surgical instruments, including the first instruments unique to women,[140] as well as the surgical uses of catgut and forceps, the ligature, surgical needle, scalpel, curette, retractor, surgical spoon, sound, surgical hook, surgical rod, and specula,[141] and bone saw.[75] Ibn al-Haytham (Alhacen) made important advances in eye surgery, as he correctly explained the process of sight and visual perception for the first time in his Book of Optics.[140]

-An Arabic manuscript describing the eye, dating back to the 12th century-


Ibn Sina (Avicenna) helped lay the foundations for modern medicine,[142] with The Canon of Medicine, which was responsible for introducing systematic experimentation and quantification in physiology, the discovery of contagious disease, introduction of quarantine to limit their spread, introduction of experimental medicine, evidence-based medicine, clinical trials, randomized controlled trials,efficacy tests,and clinical pharmacology,the first descriptions on bacteria and viral organisms, distinction of mediastinitis from pleurisy, contagious nature of tuberculosis, distribution of diseases by water and soil, skin troubles, sexually transmitted diseases, perversions, nervous ailments,[135] use of ice to treat fevers, and separation of medicine from pharmacology.[140]

Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) was the earliest known experimental surgeon. In the 12th century, he was responsible for introducing the experimental method into surgery, as he was the first to employ animal testing in order to experiment with surgical procedures before applying them to human patients. He also performed the first dissections and postmortem autopsies on humans as well as animals.

Ibn al-Nafis laid the foundations for circulatory physiology, as he was the first to describe the pulmonary circulation and coronary circulation, which form the basis of the circulatory system, for which he is considered "the greatest physiologist of the Middle Ages."He also described the earliest concept of metabolism,and developed new systems of physiology and psychology to replace the Avicennian and Galenic systems, while discrediting many of their erroneous theories on humorism, pulsation,bones, muscles, intestines, sensory organs, bilious canals, esophagus, stomach, etc.

Ibn al-Lubudi rejected the theory of humorism, and discovered that the body and its preservation depend exclusively upon blood, women cannot produce sperm, the movement of arteries are not dependent upon the movement of the heart, the heart is the first organ to form in a fetus' body, and the bones forming the skull can grow into tumors.[162] Ibn Khatima and Ibn al-Khatib discovered that infectious diseases are caused by microorganisms which enter the human body.[163] Mansur ibn Ilyas drew comprehensive diagrams of the body's structural, nervous and circulatory systems.

Physics-

The study of experimental physics began with Ibn al-Haytham,a pioneer of modern optics, who introduced the experimental scientific method and used it to drastically transform the understanding of light and vision in his Book of Optics, which has been ranked alongside Isaac Newton's Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica as one of the most influential books in the history of physics, for initiating a scientific revolution in optics[166] and visual perception.

-Ibn al-Haytham proved that light travels in straight lines using the scientific method in his Book of Optics (1021).-

The experimental scientific method was soon introduced into mechanics by Biruni,and early precursors to Newton's laws of motion were discovered by several Muslim scientists. The law of inertia, known as Newton's first law of motion, and the concept of momentum were discovered by Ibn al-Haytham (Alhacen) and Avicenna. The proportionality between force and acceleration, considered "the fundamental law of classical mechanics" and foreshadowing Newton's second law of motion, was discovered by Hibat Allah Abu'l-Barakat al-Baghdaadi,while the concept of reaction, foreshadowing Newton's third law of motion, was discovered by Ibn Bajjah (Avempace). Theories foreshadowing Newton's law of universal gravitation were developed by Ja'far Muhammad ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir, Ibn al-Haytham, and al-Khazini.Galileo Galilei's mathematical treatment of acceleration and his concept of impetus was enriched by the commentaries of Avicennaand Ibn Bajjah to Aristotle's Physics as well as the Neoplatonist tradition of Alexandria, represented by John Philoponus.

Other Sciences-

Many other advances were made by Muslim scientists in biology (anatomy, botany, evolution, physiology and zoology), the earth sciences (anthropology, cartography, geodesy, geography and geology), psychology (experimental psychology, psychiatry, psychophysics and psychotherapy), and the social sciences (demography, economics, sociology, history and historiography).

Other famous Muslim scientists during the Islamic Golden Age include al-Farabi (a polymath), Biruni (a polymath who was one of the earliest anthropologists and a pioneer of geodesy), Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī (a polymath), and Ibn Khaldun (considered to be a pioneer of several social sciencesuch as demography, economics,cultural history,[184] historiographyand sociology), among others.

Economics and Technology-

Early forms of proto-capitalism and free markets were present in the Caliphate,[49] where an early market economy and early form of merchant capitalism was developed between the 8th-12th centuries, which some refer to as "Islamic capitalism". A vigorous monetary economy was created on the basis of the expanding levels of circulation of a stable high-value currency (the dinar) and the integration of monetary areas that were previously independent. Innovative new business techniques and forms of business organisation were introduced by economists, merchants and traders during this time. Such innovations included early trading companies, credit cards, big businesses, contracts, bills of exchange, long-distance international trade, early forms of partnership (mufawada) such as limited partnerships (mudaraba), and early forms of credit, debt, profit, loss, capital (al-mal), capital accumulation (nama al-mal),circulating capital, capital expenditure, revenue, cheques, promissory notes,trusts (waqf), startup companies, savings accounts, transactional accounts, pawning, loaning, exchange rates, bankers, money changers, ledgers, deposits, assignments, the double-entry bookkeeping system,and lawsuits. Organizational enterprises similar to corporations independent from the state also existed in the medieval Islamic world.[54][55] Many of these early proto-capitalist concepts were adopted and further advanced in medieval Europe from the 13th century onwards.

The systems of contract relied upon by merchants was very effective. Merchants would buy and sell on commission, with money loaned to them by wealthy investors, or a joint investment of several merchants, who were often Muslim, Christian and Jewish. Recently, a collection of documents was found in an Egyptian synagogue shedding a very detailed and human light on the life of medieval Middle Eastern merchants. Business partnerships would be made for many commercial ventures, and bonds of kinship enabled trade networks to form over huge distances. Networks developed during this time enabled a world in which money could be promised by a bank in Baghdad and cashed in Spain, creating the cheque system of today. Each time items passed through the cities along this extraordinary network, the city imposed a tax, resulting in high prices once reaching the final destination. These innovations made by Muslims and Jews laid the foundations for the modern economic system.

Though medieval Islamic economics appears to have been closer to proto-capitalism, some scholars have also found a number of parallels between Islamic economic jurisprudence and communism, including the Islamic ideas of zakat and riba.

A significant number of inventions were produced by medieval Muslim engineers and inventors, such as Abbas Ibn Firnas, the Banū Mūsā, Taqi al-Din, and most notably al-Jazari.

Some of the inventions believed to have come from the Islamic Golden Age include the camera obscura, coffee, soap bar, tooth paste, shampoo, pure distillation, liquefaction, crystallization, purification, oxidization, evaporation, filtration, distilled alcohol, uric acid, nitric acid, alembic, valve, reciprocating suction piston pump, mechanized waterclocks, quilting, scalpel, bone saw, forceps, surgical catgut, vertical-axle windmill, inoculation, smallpox vaccine, fountain pen, cryptanalysis, frequency analysis, three-course meal, stained glass and quartz glass, Persian carpet, and celestial globe.

 

[Dresden]

I find your insecurity regarding your faith pretty laughable.

Most sensible people already know this, but we tend to judge things based on what they are now, rather than what they were.

 

[Veidt]

I find your insecurity regarding your faith pretty laughable.

Most sensible people already know this, but we tend to judge things based on what they are now, rather than what they were.

This isn't about religion. It's about a past civilization. I wanted to make on regarding the Greek civilization. But I don't know squat about that one. It's just a way for us to know past civilizations. I'm currently reading up on Plato and Aristotle ( wiki ) . So much knowledge.
Most sensible people do not know this.

 

[gdt]

Shots fired.

 

[Escape Goat]

ancient islam had laser light shows? totally rad.

 

[Veidt]

ancient islam had laser light shows? totally rad.

yeah

 

[MrHicks]

aaah the so called "golden age of islam"
a person today can only ask WHAT HAPPENED?

 

[Veidt]

aaah the so called "golden age of islam"
a person today can only ask WHAT HAPPENED?

So true. So.true. What the hell happened? I wanna know.

 

[harSon]

I find your insecurity regarding your faith pretty laughable.

Most sensible people already know this, but we tend to judge things based on what they are now, rather than what they were.

How about you read the thread's introduction and stop being an asshole.

 

[cntr]

This isn't about religion. It's about a past civilization. I wanted to make on regarding the Greek civilization. But I don't know squat about that one. It's just a way for us to know past civilizations. I'm currently reading up on Plato and Aristotle. So much knowledge.

When your topic is titled "How religion and science once merged." you can't exactly turn around and claim "not a religion thread"

 

[BorkBork]

I find your insecurity regarding your faith pretty laughable.

Most sensible people already know this, but we tend to judge things based on what they are now, rather than what they were.

This seems pretty uncalled for. I found most of the above information to be very interesting. I think a lot of people know the general contributions, but not the specifics. I do think the title could be tweaked though, if you're going for past civilization appreciation.

 

[noah111]

This won't end well, but I see where you're coming from and agree in a sense. Too bad these days they're not even close (in most regions)..

 

[harSon]

When your topic is titled "How religion and science once merged." you can't exactly turn around and claim "not a religion thread"

Well, technically speaking, it's true. It's like having a discussion on Western literature prior to the 20th Century, Christianity had a huge influence on early Western writers so you're obviously going to have to take that into account when discussing them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the thread title.

 

[CabbageRed]

I was watching some video with Neil deGrasse Tyson making comments similar to the basis of this thread and it made me realize I actually know very little about Islam before it wandered in to its current state (dark ages). Is there any non-political books that cover this topic?

 

[Dresden]

When your topic is titled "How religion and science once merged." you can't exactly turn around and claim "not a religion thread"

This seems pretty uncalled for. I found most of the above information to be very interesting. I think a lot of people know the general contributions, but not the specifics. I do think the title could be tweaked though, if you're going for past civilization appreciation.

The thread title is what set me off, because he clearly had Islam, as a faith, and its modern-day interpretation in mind when he created the thread.

That said, I was probably out of line.

 

[cntr]

Well, technically speaking, it's true. It's like having a discussion on Western literature prior to the 20th Century, Christianity had a huge influence on early Western writers so you're obviously going to have to take that into account when discussing them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the thread title.

...and we don't call it Christian literature, we call it Western literature.

 

[PantherLotus]

So how did Religion and Science once merge?

To me, this thread shows that they once coexisted, much in the same way they did in pre-Renaissance Europe. In Europe, however, science gained a greater toehold on society and the advancement of civilization at the cost of the Catholic Church, while the opposite appears true in the Middle East--to me I see a scientifically wonderous culture being nullified by Religious Zealotry.

 

[hteng]

So true. So.true. What the hell happened? I wanna know.

islam happened

 

[speculawyer]

Indeeed. The "Al" in that Algebra you study is "The" in Arabic.

It is a total tragedy how Islam was once a center of science for the world . . . and now . . . well, you might be risking your life if you teach evolution in some Muslim dominated countries.

The backward Europeans actually learned a ton from the Islamic word and the great Enlightenment began. Unfortunately, things didn't progress as much in the Islamic world.

Can anyone explain why? Did religious dogmatism retard progress?

 

[Tideas]

I don't get it. Muslims men discover scientific stuff, irrelevant to their religion, and you put it as Islam civilization.

the 2 + 2 is not coming together for me.

Might as well create one for Christian civilization and Hindu civilization

 

[Dresden]

So how did Religion and Science once merge?

To me, this thread shows that they once coexisted, much in the same way they did in pre-Renaissance Europe. In Europe, however, science gained a greater toehold on society and the advancement of civilization at the cost of the Catholic Church, while the opposite appears true in the Middle East--to me I see a scientifically wonderous culture being nullified by Religious Zealotry.

Not sure about science and religion coexisting in pre-Renaissance Europe. It was Religion over Science, until the Renaissance when the two started to become equal, then, at the start of the Neo Classical age--or the Age of Reason, or The Enlightenment--when Science began to outgrow the yoke placed upon it by Religion.

 

[Red Blaster]

I find your insecurity regarding your faith pretty laughable.

Most sensible people already know this, but we tend to judge things based on what they are now, rather than what they were.

Try reading the thread, dicksneeze.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

"Mathematics are evil"

 

[LordAzrael]

Can anyone explain why? Did religious dogmatism retard progress?

Hit the nail on the head. When people suggested pursuing science at the expense of religion, well, they weren't taken too kindly.

 

[Veidt]

I don't get it. Muslims men discover scientific stuff, irrelevant to their religion, and you put it as Islam civilization.

the 2 + 2 is not coming together for me.

Might as well create one for Christian civilization and Hindu civilization

Many of the names mentioned in the first two posts. Are respected scholars in religious matters and in fact drew much of their inspiration from their faith.

Also, this thread is become very lively with great discussions.

 

[harSon]

...and we don't call it Christian literature, we call it Western literature.

Well, that's because the West chose to classify it as such. You'd rather have the thread title be something that's "Western Approved? What should the thread title be? "Eastern (or Middle Eastern Civilization). How religion and science once merged"? Because those are Western/Colonialist era terms, not what the people of those regions preferred to be called.

 

[MrHicks]

although the faith these great inventors/scientists had doesn't mean anything really
these ARENT islamic inventions

you dont call japanese inventions "shinto science" or indian inventions "buddhist science"

islam itself shouldn't take any "credit" for these things nor should any other faith

 

[acidviper]

I still want to know how they got nanotubes in their swords

 

[speculawyer]

I don't get it. Muslims men discover scientific stuff, irrelevant to their religion, and you put it as Islam civilization.

Well, that is the question . . . why so much science back then and now they are relatively weak in science, technology, etc. Why? Is it really irrelevant to the religion? It definitely could be . . . I think the large number of dictatorships and the lack of meritocracy has hurt them heavily as well.

 

[speculawyer]

Hit the nail on the head. When people suggested pursuing science at the expense of religion, well, they weren't taken too kindly.

I think it had an effect but I'm not sure how big. The lack of meritocracy probably contributed quite a bit too. (Of course that could be related to Islam in some respects. There are those who believe Islam is just not compatible with Democracy, Free Speech, and all that.)

 

[harSon]

although the faith these great inventors/scientists had doesn't mean anything really
these ARENT islamic inventions

you dont call japanese inventions "shinto science" or indian inventions "buddhist science"

islam itself shouldn't take any "credit" for these things nor should any other faith

What would you classify siege weapons that were created during the Crusades as?

 

[Veidt]

although the faith these great inventors/scientists had doesn't mean anything really
these ARENT islamic inventions

you dont call japanese inventions "shinto science" or indian inventions "buddhist science"

islam itself shouldn't take any "credit" for these things nor should any other faith

Ibn Khaldūn
Who I'm currently reading on, frequently mentioned his faith and uses it as a way to explain his views on many aspects.

 

[Tideas]

What would you classify siege weapons that were created during the Crusades as?

Persians invention?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

So how did Religion and Science once merge?

To me, this thread shows that they once coexisted, much in the same way they did in pre-Renaissance Europe. In Europe, however, science gained a greater toehold on society and the advancement of civilization at the cost of the Catholic Church, while the opposite appears true in the Middle East--to me I see a scientifically wonderous culture being nullified by Religious Zealotry.

Yup.

 

[harSon]

Well, that is the question . . . why so much science back then and now they are relatively weak in science, technology, etc. Why? Is it really irrelevant to the religion? It definitely could be . . . I think the large number of dictatorships and the lack of meritocracy has hurt them heavily as well.

Really? European society had very little in common with what we'd classify as a Meritocracy until very recently, prior to the 19th Century, social class was basically assigned at birth and class mobility was quite uncommon.

 

[Dennis]

No, I am sorry but the Islamic contribution to science is very tiny compared to the contribution of the Ancient Greeks and Europe after about 1400 A.D.

What is really remarkable is that a large and powerful civilization like the Islamic world from about 800 A.D to the end of the Ottoman Empire - more than a 1000 years - made so little scientific progress.

 

[J-Rod]

I know Jews had rules for the poor and for widows and for who couldn't be drafted for war and so forth. Such as you couldn't harvest all your crops, but had to leave some for the poor, or if your brother died who had a family, you had to take them in, or how newly married men had a year or two to enjoy their lives before they could go back to war, ect. Just a hodgepodge of what little comes to mind that might relate to the categories.

 

[besada]

Ibn Khaldūn
Who I'm currently reading on, frequently mentioned his faith and uses it as a way to explain his views on many aspects.

The same is true of Newton, but you don't frequently see people talking about the Christian laws of motion.

 

[Instigator]

*looks forward to Atrus and Nizar contributing to this thread*

 

[Furcas]

It's a thread to highlight Islamic contributions to humanity. There is no bitter argumentation needed. It's perhaps a way we can look into things on a deeper level. This isn't about debating whether Muslims are terrorists, or trying to prove that God exists. This is mainly, just a way for us to explore the Islamic civilization. To elaborate on things that we weren't taught in school. Much like one would explore the Greek civilization, or any other civilization that has paved the way for us, as humanity, to what we are today. And also am hoping someone who knows about other civilizations, makes an appropriate info packed thread for those too. Let's get on that! I can't wait to learn more about the Greeks and Egyptians, Romans ect.!

Your attempt at obscuring your true motives is so very, very transparent. You exclusively use adjectives that refer to religious beliefs ("Islamic civilization", "Muslim scientists", and so forth) throughout your posts, but only when it comes to the civilization in which your religious beliefs were dominant. When talking about other civilizations, however, you use their actual names: "Greek" and "Roman" instead of "Olympian", and "Egyptian" instead of "Pharaoh-worshiping". Why this difference? I think anyone who's read your previous posts can figure it out.



Oh and, please post your sources. Some of this stuff comes from wikipedia, but a minute of Googling reveals that a lot of it comes from a blog whose writer couldn't even spell "physics" right in his post's title, or even in the web page's address:

http://isciv.blogspot.com/2009/02/pyhsics.html

 

[Dresden]

Try reading the thread, dicksneeze.

.

Your attempt at obscuring your true motives is so very, very transparent. You exclusively use adjectives that refer to religious beliefs ("Islamic civilization", "Muslim scientists", and so forth) throughout your posts, but only when it comes to the civilization in which your religious beliefs were dominant. When talking about other civilizations, however, you use their actual names: "Greek" and "Roman" instead of "Olympian", and "Egyptian" instead of "Pharaoh-worshiping". Why this difference? I think anyone who's read your previous posts can figure it out.



Oh and, please post your sources. Some of this stuff comes from wikipedia, but a minute of Googling reveals that a lot of it comes from a blog whose writer couldn't even spell "physics" right in his post's title, or even in the web page's address:

http://isciv.blogspot.com/2009/02/pyhsics.html

 

[levious]

Well, technically speaking, it's true. It's like having a discussion on Western literature prior to the 20th Century, Christianity had a huge influence on early Western writers so you're obviously going to have to take that into account when discussing them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the thread title.

it's sort of implying this merger was unique to islam, which it was not.

 

[Veidt]

The same is true of Newton, but you don't frequently see people talking about the Christian laws of motion.

This would be the case if Newton was a scholar in Christianity. And wrote texts based on his faith.

I see where you're coming from though!

 

[cntr]

Well, that's because the West chose to classify it as such. You'd rather have the thread title be something that's "Western Approved? What should the thread title be? "Eastern (or Middle Eastern Civilization). How religion and science once merged"? Because those are Western/Colonialist era terms, not what the people of those regions preferred to be called.

I'm fine with the thread title being titled "Islamic Civilization", but the point I was making is that we don't attribute everything in Western history as part of Christianity.

 

[radios shipping overview]

The possible causes of decline are myriad and still being debated today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science#Decline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#End_of_the_Golden_Age

 

[Veidt]

Your attempt at obscuring your true motives is so very, very transparent. You exclusively use adjectives that refer to religious beliefs ("Islamic civilization", "Muslim scientists", and so forth) throughout your posts, but only when it comes to the civilization in which your religious beliefs were dominant. When talking about other civilizations, however, you use their actual names: "Greek" and "Roman" instead of "Olympian", and "Egyptian" instead of "Pharaoh-worshiping". Why this difference? I think anyone who's read your previous posts can figure it out.



Oh and, please post your sources. Some of this stuff comes from wikipedia, but a minute of Googling reveals that a lot of it comes from a blog whose writer couldn't even spell "physics" right in his post's title, or even in the web page's address:

http://isciv.blogspot.com/2009/02/pyhsics.html

ALL of it is from wiki. I do not hide things. This is what I could find online.

The possible causes of decline are myriad and still being debated today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science#Decline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#End_of_the_Golden_Age

Now we're getting to the interesting bit!

 

[harSon]

Your attempt at obscuring your true motives is so very, very transparent. You exclusively use adjectives that refer to religious beliefs ("Islamic civilization", "Muslim scientists", and so forth) throughout your posts, but only when it comes to the civilization in which your religious beliefs were dominant. When talking about other civilizations, however, you use their actual names: "Greek" and "Roman" instead of "Olympian", and "Egyptian" instead of "Pharaoh-worshiping". Why this difference? I think anyone who's read your previous posts can figure it out.

Or maybe he didn't want the discussion to become a dick measuring contest between the contributions of Islamic and Christian societies like so many of you seem to want to do.

 

[besada]

This would be the case if Newton was a scholar in Christianity. And wrote texts based on his faith.

I see where you're coming from though!

He was and he did.

 

[cntr]

This would be the case if Newton was a scholar in Christianity. And wrote texts based on his faith.

I see where you're coming from though!

Gregor Mendel, a priest, also known as the father of modern genetics.