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"Israeli soldiers deliberately and fatally shot Palestinian paramedic Rozan a-Najar in the Gaza Strip"

luigimario

Banned
https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20180718_paramedic_rozan_a_najar_killed_by_deliberate_fire

Some choice quotes....

"At around 5:45 P.M., two soldiers got out of a military jeep and pointed their guns at us. They fired two bullets at us. One hit Rozan in the left side of the chest and exited out her back. At the very same time, I was hit by shrapnel from live rounds. I was hit in the pelvic area and in the right hand. My colleague Rami was hit in the top part of his left leg and by shrapnel in the right leg and left arm. "

"The IDF Spokesperson tried to clear the military of responsibility for a-Najar’s death, initially saying that soldiers did not fire at the spot where she had been standing. Later, the military said a-Najar might have been killed by a ricochet, before finally accusing her of serving as a human shield for rioters. "

"An investigation conducted by B’Tselem proves 20-year-old a-Najar was fatally shot by a member of the security forces who was aiming directly at her as she was standing about 25 meters away from the fence, despite the fact that she posed no danger to him or anyone else and was wearing a medical uniform. "

"The killing of a-Najar is a direct result of the open-fire policy Israel has been implementing since the protests began. The lethal results of this policy are well known: Since the protests began on 30 March 2018, 127 Palestinian protesters have been killed – including at least 18 minors – the vast majority of whom posed no danger to the Israeli security forces stationed on the other side of the fence. In addition, about 4,100 people have been wounded by live fire. Medical staff were among the casualties. On 14 May 2018, two weeks before a-Najar was killed, security forces killed another paramedic, Musa Abu Hasanin, 34, at a demonstration near Jabalya R.C. According to figures up until 10 July 2018 as released by the World Health Organization, 357 medical staff had been hurt: 26 by live fire; 37 were directly hit by teargas canisters; 12 were hit by shrapnel; no details were given for the rest. In addition, 58 ambulances sustained damage. "

Before the usual (Crypto) rush in to defend the IDF and claim this is propaganda, this investigation was done by Israeli Human Rights Organisation, B'tselem.
 

llien

Member
Are you saying that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is Trump’s fault?
Taking sides in this conflict is Trump's fault, recent protests were sparked by him cementing land grab in Jerusalem, by moving the mbassy from Tel Aviv.
 

Gander

Banned
Are you saying that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is Trump’s fault?

This is something he should have left alone. It was not going to escalate on it's own and he knows nothing about foreign policy.

Putin likely told him to do it, so he did.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Taking sides in this conflict is Trump's fault, recent protests were sparked by him cementing land grab in Jerusalem, by moving the mbassy from Tel Aviv.

WTF? Taking sides and land grab has been happening for over 50 years now. Do you even history?

And the US has been backing Israel no matter WHO was president, yes, even Obomba.
 

llien

Member
But this has been happening before moving the embassy
Previous administrations didn't accept Jerusalem to be "solely" Jewish.

WTF? Taking sides and land grab has been happening for over 50 years now. Do you even history?
Land grab and ethnic cleansing has been happening for over 50 years.
US administration never endorsed either. Trump did though.
Clinton administration strongly pushed for a two state solution.
 
Previous administrations didn't accept Jerusalem to be "solely" Jewish.


Land grab and ethnic cleansing has been happening for over 50 years.
US administration never endorsed either. Trump did though.
Clinton administration strongly pushed for a two state solution.
in east Jerusalem, palenstines who live there have 15 years to return back to their homes if they ever leave. If they do not return, their homes are up for grabs in which jewish people are allowed to take. I meant this.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Previous administrations didn't accept Jerusalem to be "solely" Jewish.


Land grab and ethnic cleansing has been happening for over 50 years.
US administration never endorsed either. Trump did though.
Clinton administration strongly pushed for a two state solution.

You mean the same Clinton administration that supplies Isreal with military weapons and vehicles/jets, like every sitting president has done since this conflict has been going on?

That was their form of picking sides, actions speak louder than words. ;)
 
You mean the same Clinton administration that supplies Isreal with military weapons and vehicles/jets, like every sitting president has done since this conflict has been going on?

That was their form of picking sides, actions speak louder than words. ;)

That's how Democrats have done for years.

"I got a Nobel Peace Prize! I'm changing US foreign policy!"

*stays in wars entire time in office, drones weddings, uses CIA to advance Saudi agenda by overthrowing countries so ISIS can take over*

"I'm likeable! Watch me play the sax!"

*goes to war in Bosnia to distract from scandals*

Of course, Republicans do the same. Bush put on his goofy hick act to keep that same persona of the guy you'd have a beer with while taking the US to the cleaners for the MIC.

Voting for Democrats is all about voting for their face - it almost never is a vote for what they actually stand for. Sanders and Kucinich are probably the most honest ones.
 
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Voting for Democrats is all about voting for their face - it almost never is a vote for what they actually stand for. Sanders and Kucinich are probably the most honest ones.
But democrats and liberals are always care about looks - elitism at its finest. At least republicans are not trying to pretend :D
 
But democrats and liberals are always care about looks - elitism at its finest. At least republicans are not trying to pretend :D

I'm sure that the Libyan people care that Obama looks like a slick weasel while they run from ISIS and the warlords who invaded after Obama and Hillary killed Gadaffi.

"That ISIS marauder may be about to cut out my heart and eat it, but at least Obama didn't say something mean on Twitter. I can die untriggered!"
 

llien

Member
You mean the same Clinton administration that supplies Isreal with military weapons and vehicles/jets, like every sitting president has done since this conflict has been going on?
Yeah, fair enough, although, somewhat counterable with "but they are surrounded with hostile nations".
It's not like Clinton created that "US aid to Israel" thing, he simply didn't have balls to stop it.
 

NickFire

Member
Previous administrations didn't accept Jerusalem to be "solely" Jewish.


Land grab and ethnic cleansing has been happening for over 50 years.
US administration never endorsed either. Trump did though.
Clinton administration strongly pushed for a two state solution.
One Clinton was president for 8 years. The other Clinton was secretary of state years later. Both Clintons left their offices with no solution reached or even close to reached. The Clintons clearly did not have any viable solution. Perhaps we shouldn't use them as a metric when evaluating a new approach?
 

llien

Member
One Clinton was president for 8 years. The other Clinton was secretary of state years later. Both Clintons left their offices with no solution reached or even close to reached. The Clintons clearly did not have any viable solution. Perhaps we shouldn't use them as a metric when evaluating a new approach?

It depends on how you see the situation, I guess.
The way I see it:
1) Israel is in full throttle nationalism mode
2) West Bank (and Gaza, but oh well we'll get to it later) are 100% Jewish territories, with some Arabs out there, they don't know how many
3) Strongarming worked so well in the past, why not continue land grab
4) Very strong Jewish lobby in the USA

"But Clinton failed" - as far as I remember, Clinton is how the yet another intifada has ended, with most of the goodness stopping after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by jewish nationalists.
 

NickFire

Member
It depends on how you see the situation, I guess.
The way I see it:
1) Israel is in full throttle nationalism mode
2) West Bank (and Gaza, but oh well we'll get to it later) are 100% Jewish territories, with some Arabs out there, they don't know how many
3) Strongarming worked so well in the past, why not continue land grab
4) Very strong Jewish lobby in the USA

"But Clinton failed" - as far as I remember, Clinton is how the yet another intifada has ended, with most of the goodness stopping after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by jewish nationalists.

It was not Clinton who failed, it was both Clintons who failed. Maybe one failed more spectacularly than the other, but at the end of the day neither brought a lasting and sustained peace. Both failed, and the notion that one would have done better this time than Trump still might, well, what happened the last time people gave a Clinton one more chance to cross the goal? I submit to you that resulted in President Trump.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
One Clinton was president for 8 years. The other Clinton was secretary of state years later. Both Clintons left their offices with no solution reached or even close to reached. The Clintons clearly did not have any viable solution. Perhaps we shouldn't use them as a metric when evaluating a new approach?

Read what Dennis Ross wrote about camp David. Clinton himself said the only new idea brought forth by Arafat was that there never was a temple at the temple mount.

Clintons tried to negotiate a viable solution but Arafat wasn't interested.

The same Arafat who on January 30 1996 told a gathering of Arab diplomats in Stockholm:

"We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps," Arafat reportedly declared. "Within five years, we will have six to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. All Palestinian Arabs will be welcomed by us. If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbeks and Ukrainians as Jews, we can import all kinds of Arabs to us."

PLO plans, according to Arafat, were to "to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews won't want to live among us Arabs."

He told the diplomats, "I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews! We now need all the help we can get from you in our battle for a united Palestine under total Arab-Muslim domination."

I wouldn't put it on the shoulders of Clinton for the failure. He had to deal with a terrorist thief not his fault.
 

NickFire

Member
Read what Dennis Ross wrote about camp David. Clinton himself said the only new idea brought forth by Arafat was that there never was a temple at the temple mount.

Clintons tried to negotiate a viable solution but Arafat wasn't interested.

The same Arafat who on January 30 1996 told a gathering of Arab diplomats in Stockholm:

"We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps," Arafat reportedly declared. "Within five years, we will have six to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. All Palestinian Arabs will be welcomed by us. If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbeks and Ukrainians as Jews, we can import all kinds of Arabs to us."

PLO plans, according to Arafat, were to "to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews won't want to live among us Arabs."

He told the diplomats, "I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews! We now need all the help we can get from you in our battle for a united Palestine under total Arab-Muslim domination."

I wouldn't put it on the shoulders of Clinton for the failure. He had to deal with a terrorist thief not his fault.
Anyone who tries has to deal with terrorists. Its par for the course. Can only think of one person who actually said enough pandering to the terrorists and its time to force the issue. He's our current president. Maybe if someone had done that before this issue would have resolved by now. Maybe not. Impossible to say. But what is not impossible to say is that two Clintons tried, and both failed. That is a fact.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
Anyone who tries has to deal with terrorists. Its par for the course. Can only think of one person who actually said enough pandering to the terrorists and its time to force the issue. He's our current president. Maybe if someone had done that before this issue would have resolved by now. Maybe not. Impossible to say. But what is not impossible to say is that two Clintons tried, and both failed. That is a fact.

I agree its about time someone stepped up to the terrorist and as well implemented the will of congress as they expressed in 1995. Clinton failed but there was only so much he could do. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Arafat (and other Palestinian leaders) were never going to accept a Jewish state. Their reaction to the nation state law says it all. Just look at their own constitution

ARTICLE 1[edit]
Palestine is part of the large Arab World, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab Nation. Arab Unity is an objective which the Palestinian People shall work to achieve.

ARTICLE 4[edit]
  1. Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect and sanctity of all other heavenly religions shall be maintained.
  2. The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be the main source of legislation.
  3. Arabic shall be the official language.

So lets see Arabs complain Israel is a Jewish state with Hebrew as an official language yet their own constitution says they are Arab state with Arabic as its official language(no special status for Hebrew) and Islam the offical religion.

I found this nice gem

ARTICLE 34[edit]
The President of the Executive Authority shall be elected in a general and direct elections by the Palestinian People in accordance with the Palestinian Election Law.

Looks like Abbas is in contravention to his own constitution since his mandate ended a decade ago.

And we can look at Jordan, the state that was carved out of the mandate to be an exclusive Arab state in Palestine

Article 1 The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is an independent sovereign Arab State. It is indivisible and inalienable and no part of it may be ceded. The people of Jordan form a part of the Arab Nation, and its system of government is parliamentary with a hereditary monarchy.

Article 2 Islam is the religion of the State and Arabic is its official language.

Article 3 The city of Amman is the capital of the Kingdom, but it may be transferred to another place by a special law.
 
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