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ITT, We all have to agree on a game better than Super Mario 64

K

kinggroin

Banned
Okami is not better because the game had pacing issues, where as Mario 64 was flexible enough to be completed extremely quick or not (depending on how much of the world you wanted to see). Basically, you determined the pace.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
mp1990 said:
What a weird idea for a thread.

But it gives me the chance of saying this: The PS1 Crash games are NOT better than Mario 64.
Click to expand...

Yeah, well I can't say I really get what is it the thread wants to achieve but I can absolutely second this.
 
daTRUballin

daTRUballin

Member
This is a weird thread. I think it'd be better if the title was "We all have to agree on a platformer that is better than Super Mario 64." Mario 64 is a legendary game, but comparing it to every single game in existence seems a little unfair.
 
C

Chronospherics

Member
Yoshi said:
My disagreements, I am ONLY posting disagreements to games that I personally have played and that have not been challenged before (because this would be redundant).

Dark Souls is a lot of busywork, it's controls are far less immediate and its level design is mechanically way less interesting than Mario 64's. I think Dark Souls is a game that plays considerably worse than Mario 64 on all levels. Well, maybe not in regards of camera control.


I only know Resident Evil 4 out of those: Resident Evil 4 has a very uneven difficulty curve and quite a few very boring scenes. It also plays way clumsier than Mario 64.

Advance Wars has elements of chance, therefore is automatically inferior to Mario 64.

Super Paper Mario has super-redundant elements like this "walking on a treadmill" stuff. There are numerous scenes that are just there for a joke and have no gameplay value. Therefore it is considerably weaker than SM64.

Weak disagreement here: SMB3 and SM64 are on the same level of quality. SM64 is more innovative, but SMB3 puts every other game previously released to shame, so even in these secondary criterions it's impossible to give the edge to one of them. Since the thread is asking for something that is better than Mario 64, I have to refute SMB3.


I have only played God of War 1 & 2, but both are way weaker than Mario 64. The fights are mindless, the puzzles are too simplistic and there is too much in the game that is there purely for presentational reasons without any gameplay value, that is even disrupting gameplay.

GTA5 is unfocussed, has too much mechanical fluff and is overall an abysmal game, so certainly not better than Super Mario 64.

Catherine has too much fluff in between the puzzles, the controls are clunkier than SM64's and it is not varied enough in its challenges.

J&D1 has very floaty controls, and some real stinker levels, particularly that forest area.

Knack is just absolute trash, which SM64 is not, so it is certainly a lot weaker.

Streets of Rage 2 bores me to death, not better than Mario 64.
Galaxies have already been challenged, I have already challenged SMB3 (and already said that it itself is better than 1 & 2). Super Mario Land is way too short, too easy and too stiff, Super Mario Land 2 is quite imaginative, but it has worse controls and a very uneven difficulty curve. Sunshine has already been challenged. Super Mario World is a similar case to Super Mario Bros. 3: As good as Super Mario 64, but not better. I won't challenge Yoshi's Island though (so I challenge all the games in the list other than Yoshi).

Spyro is utter junk. The developers had absolutely no idea how to use collectibles to structure a game and instead just dumped them into the game. The overall level design is just plain boring and the controls are significantly worse than Mario 64's.

I have already challenged it above.

Bayonetta is a great character action game, but it has a lot of empty areas and puts too much emphasis on stylish sequences over pure gameplay. Not better than Mario 64.

Metroid Prime is a similar case to SMB3: It does the same thing as Mario 64, successfully bring its series to the third dimension. It is focused and has amazing gameplay and level design. So does Mario 64 though and I see no difference in quality here. So I challenge Metroid Prime because it is not better than Mario 64, but just on the same level.

In TTYD you had to walk around the whole game world in the end to collect some super dumb collectibles. There was no challenge to it, just busywork. Busywork is always inexcusable. Therefore TTYD certainly is not better than SM64.

Tetris has elements of chance to it, so it cannot be better than SM64.
Click to expand...

This post made me laugh. Quotes like 'Tetris includes randomised elements and therefore cannot be better than Super Mario 64', literally make no sense. There are an abundance of games that use randomised elements to enhance their experience, games like Spelunky are frequently listed as the best game of all time by reputable game developers in magazines like Edge.

As far as littering the level with collectibles, Spyro is driven by its Orb collectible system, very similar to Super Mario's Stars. I don't see why it's a burden on the games design to reward exploration of the entire level. You do not need to collect all of the gems to complete a basic clear of the game. If anything, I preferred this rewarded exploration to Super Mario 64.

Additionally, mechanics like the world reset per Star in Super Mario 64 are objectively worse, reloading the same environment, often repeating the same platforming challenges per star (even if each path does diverge. However, I wouldn't be foolish enough to presume that my preference here were an objective weakness of the game. It has its advantages and disadvantages, it affords unique and minor restructures of the level per star, even if it does come at the expense of the players time.

The notion of contemplating a game that's better than Mario 64 assumes that people have collectively agreed that Super Mario 64 is the best game to begin with, yet that's clearly never been the case. So this thread seeks to defend a throne that has not yet been earned. So long as a single person in this thread exists that believes Super Mario 64 is the best game of all time, this thread can never meet it's goal. Metal Gear Solid V will never reach complete nuclear disarmament and neither will the user base here, collectively agree on a game better than Super Mario 64.
 
lastrealgameralive

lastrealgameralive

Member
The list will take a long time. First we can scratch off every 2D and 2.5D platformer game ever made because 3D outperforms 2D. So:

Klonoa - physics engine doesn't allow the great momentum felt in SMB or Sonic.
Crash Bandicoot 2 - simplistic. utilizes less depth in 3D space.
Crash Bandicoot 3 - simplistic. utilizes less depth in 3D space.
Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze - DK: Jungle Beat is better than this game. Even the best 2D DK game doesn't capture the thrill of bolting through 3D with long jumps and a superb physics engine.
Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat - perfect 2.5D
Sonic 2 - Sonic 1 is the best designed Sonic.
Sonic - perfect 2D
Super Mario Bros. - perfect 2D
Super Mario Bros. 2 - perfect 2D
Super Mario Bros. 3 - perfect 2D
Super Metroid - perfect 2D
Super Meat Boy - poor transitions between levels. infinite continue is a bad system. 2/5 game.
Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land - lesser game than the console Mario games.
Super Mario World: Yoshi's Island - lesser game than World because it diluted platforming with simplistic puzzle design as a key feature. Still great.


Now to the 3D ones:

Banjo Kazooie - badly implemented item use by tying the movepool to haphazardly scattered doodads which makes the stage feel less like a fun race track and more like a constant grind. The character's default speed is slow and none of the movements feel as exhilarating as SM64's after you trudge a dead feeling Banjo around for at least 50% of the time you control him. The constant timer on item depletion is anti-immersive.

Jet Set Radio Future - JSR should replace this. JSRF is a lesser / simplified version of JSR.
Jet Set Radio - definitely is competing with Mario in terms of movement. SOLID CONTENDER.

Rayman 2 - it has a better adventure in terms of handling transitioning between stages, but the game has an inferior physics engine due to it not being locked behind the shoulder. The fairies scattered throughout are done in a less pleasing way than DK: JB which allowed you to keep flow going instead of repeatedly going backwards in a level to collect.

Super Mario Galaxy 2 - less complex moveset. lesser physics engine. lesser event impact of Mario. better than Galaxy though.

Metroid Prime - way better exploration in this title than any of the above. SOLID CONTENDER.
 
daTRUballin

daTRUballin

Member
Vert1 said:
Banjo Kazooie - badly implemented item use by tying the movepool to haphazardly scattered doodads which makes the stage feel less like a fun race track and more like a constant grind.The character's default speed is slow and none of the movements feel as exhilarating as SM64's. Banjo feels like a dead animal for at least 50% of the time you control him.
Click to expand...

If Banjo Kazooie is "badly implemented item use" then I'm scared to see what you think of Donkey Kong 64 lol

DK64 is still a good game tho
 
lastrealgameralive

lastrealgameralive

Member
The item collecting aspect was plentiful, but the collecting was awful. The game makes you feel like shit when you're not using items to move fast. That game makes you truly appreciate Super Mario Sunshine's ability to refill the FLUDD through water, water barrels, sprinklers, etc. All of that is done without using an anti-immersive number gauge for fuel.
 
W

Weltall Zero

Member
Watch this be won by the obscurest game nobody has played and hence nobody can dispute.

Anyway, besides the ones already marked in the OP, I have played and dispute all of the following:

Polioliolio said:
Bubble Bobble
DOOM
Dune 2
Jet Set Radio Future
Klonoa
La Mulana
The Last of Us
Monkey Island 2
Portal 2
Quake
Sonic 2
Super Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros. 2
Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land
Super Smash Bros.
Tomba
Click to expand...

Now I wish I had played all Crash Bandicoot games, because considering how much I dislike the first, I would dispute them all in a heartbeat. >_>

My nominations: Most of my favorites are covered in the OP, but off the top of my head:

999
Crypt of the Necrodancer
Desktop Dungeons
Devil May Cry 3
Enter the Gungeon
FTL
Guild Wars 2
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Persona 4 Golden
Smash 4 Wii U
Starbound
Starfox 64
The Wonderful 101
To the Moon
Transformers: Devastation
Ultra Street Fighter IV
Undertale
World of Warcraft
Xenoblade Chronicles (the Wii original one, not X)
 
daTRUballin

daTRUballin

Member
Vert1 said:
Banjo was poor in collecting items and moves. The item collecting aspect was plentiful, but the collecting was awful. The game makes you feel like shit when you're not using items to move fast. That game makes you truly appreciate Super Mario Sunshine's ability to refill the FLUDD through water, water barrels, sprinklers, etc. All of that is done without using an anti-immersive number gauge for fuel.
Click to expand...

Did you even use Kazooie while playing that game at all? She's essentially Banjo's FLUDD lol. Yeah, Banjo by himself is slow as shit, but Kazooie makes moving around so much faster. Whenever I play the game, I basically just use the talon trot move like 90% of the time and it really helps with moving around quicker. Plus jumping while using the talon trot at the same time really helps as well (especially in speed runs and stuff like that).

Not every character has to be as fast as Mario. In fact, I'm pretty sure the talon trot makes Banjo and Kazooie run about the same speed as Mario does in 64, and when you use the running shoes, they run even faster than Mario does. So I'm not sure what you're complaining about exactly. Did you want the whole game to be as fast as when you have the running shoes on? That would frankly be pretty bad and would make the game nearly impossible to play!
 
C

Conciliator

Banned
The thing about this is that as long as there's at least one person in this thread that thinks Super Mario 64 is the best game ever made - and I know there are more than a few of these people on GAF - then we can never suitably conclude this thread.
 
V

Vader1

Unconfirmed Member
Yoshi said:
I only know Resident Evil 4 out of those: Resident Evil 4 has a very uneven difficulty curve and quite a few very boring scenes. It also plays way clumsier than Mario 64.

J&D1 has very floaty controls, and some real stinker levels, particularly that forest area.
Click to expand...

I love the inherent strangeness of people using difficulty as a negative. RE4 and SM64 are obviously apples and oranges, that's what makes RE 4's controls better than SM64. Tight, slow-paced and stiff controls work remarkably well for a survival horror game. They do not work well for a platformer, at least the latter two categories don't.

J&D 1 has vastly more believable and immersive environments than SM64 and far more aerial mobility and fluidity in the controls. SM64 only beats it in the music department and that is thanks to Koji Kondo not the game designers.

Vert1 said:
The list will take a long time. First we can scratch off every 2D and 2.5D platformer game ever made because 3D outperforms 2D.
Click to expand...

Is "reasoning" even a thing anymore?
 
W

Weltall Zero

Member
Yoshi said:
.
Click to expand...

This is the very definition of a subjective opinions thread, no argument made will be of any use to anyone who disagrees, and frankly, if you're going to post arguments like "it has random elements so it's automatically worse", you might as well just save your effort and post your list of contested and suggested games.

This of course would doubly apply to the "3D automatically outperforms 2D" thing, but I refuse to believe that one's not a troll.
 
W

Wiseblade

Member
Weltall Zero said:
Xenoblade Chronicles (the Wii original one, not X)
Click to expand...
I dispute this one. Xenoblade Chronicles loses steam at the halfway point, with the combat becoming more shallow as the enemies become less diverse and the player has largely collected the full cast and gained access to pretty much all the battle mechanics. The environments become noticeably more linear and the plot fails to build off the developments at the midpoint in a satisfactory way. All in all, the game slowly becomes a chore as you approach the end.

Conversely, SM64's progression structure near-perfectly increases the challenge in tandem with the player becoming more comfortable navigating the environments. The levels themselves also become more complex and occasionally introduce new concepts to the player to maintain engagement.
 
lastrealgameralive

lastrealgameralive

Member
daTRUballin said:
Did you even use Kazooie while playing that game at all? She's essentially Banjo's FLUDD lol.
Click to expand...
Yes. Kazooie is more charming than FLUDD, but FLUDD has a way better movepool (i.e. water slide).

Yeah, Banjo by himself is slow as shit, but Kazooie makes moving around so much faster. Whenever I play the game, I basically just use the talon trot move like 90% of the time and it really helps with moving around quicker. Plus jumping while using the talon trot at the same time really helps as well (especially in speed runs and stuff like that).
Click to expand...

Talon trot speeds things up, but the character speed still feels limited. Mario is explosive with long jumping, diving, somersaulting, wall bouncing, etc. When you are in Talon trot your movepool gets simplified to only small jumps. There is less pleasure in moving fast in a default mode in Kazooie than 64 because Mario builds more momentum. And as I've stated hyper mode (mojo's powers or whatever they're called) < Mario 64's caps. Plus Mario 64 shells > Kazooie. Picking things up in Super Mario 64 is pure joy while in Banjo it reminds you of your loss of freedom.

Not every character has to be as fast as Mario. In fact, I'm pretty sure the talon trop makes Banjo and Kazooie run about the same speed as Mario does in 64, and when you use the running shoes, they run even faster than Mario does. So I'm not sure what you're complaining exactly. Did you want the whole game to be as fast as when you have the running shoes on? That'd be pretty bad and would make the game nearly impossible to play!
Click to expand...

I've already explained that simply moving fast in one way (holding down the analog stick for talon trot) is boring compared to the combinations of fast movement Mario can do to keep his speed up. I think Banjo's jumping is less pleasurable than Mario's due to less jumping movepool and worse physics engine. Banjo Kazooie is fast how Sonic 2 is fast compared to Sonic. It simplifies being fast to holding down a direction instead of allowing you to use bursts of energy to produce a more enjoyable top speed.
 
lastrealgameralive

lastrealgameralive

Member
Vader1 said:
J&D 1 has vastly more believable and immersive environments than SM64 and far more aerial mobility and fluidity in the controls. SM64 only beats it in the music department and that is thanks to Koji Kondo not the game designers.
Click to expand...

J&D has a simplistic physics engine that doesn't allow for great momentum that is experienced in Super Mario 64. The world in J&D is ugly compared to SM64's bold colors that retains the image superiority of past 2D Mario titles. Believable environment? How believable is the water in J&D that does not look like water at all? The only thing the world has going for it is that it is connected together which makes transitioning from levels seemless and more immersive.

Vader1 said:
Is "reasoning" even a thing anymore?
Click to expand...
3D worlds are more immersive than 2D worlds. What do you want to argue about on that? You could easily argue that SM64 has worse platforming designed levels than the 2D Mario games, but the 3D itself pushes it over-the-top in terms of max pleasure felt.
 
R

rjc571

Banned
I Wanna Be The Guy said:
Pretty much. I'll give it credit for being the first proper 3D platformer. I'm sure it had the wow factor when it releases. But the game really isn't great. There were far better platformers even in its own generation, and there's a ton more now. There were also a ton of platformers way better than Mario 64 before Mario 64. They just weren't in 3D.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't even give it credit for that, as Jumping Flash! came out the year before and featured a far more interesting triple jump mechanic along with expansive platforming layouts that take full advantage of this ability, and does a better job than Mario 64 of integrating combat elements into the platforming gameplay during these expansive levels as well (although there's no getting around the fact that the fps dungeon levels that restrict your jumping are just plain bad.) I would even argue that Jumping Flash! 1 and 2 hold up better than Super Mario 64.
 
TheRedSnifit

TheRedSnifit

Member
rjc571 said:
I wouldn't even give it credit for that, as Jumping Flash! came out the year before and featured a far more interesting triple jump mechanic along with expansive platforming layouts that take full advantage of this ability, and does a better job than Mario 64 of integrating combat elements into the platforming gameplay during these expansive levels as well (although there's no getting around the fact that the fps dungeon levels that restrict your jumping are just plain bad.) I would even argue that Jumping Flash! 1 and 2 hold up better than Super Mario 64.
Click to expand...

What?

What?!

I have literally never, ever heard anybody express this opinion before. Huh.
 
D

Dion Blaster

Member
The reason I don't think Galaxy is better than 64 is pacing and replay value. Galaxy has a few slow/boring segments throughout that you're forced to complete, especially at the beginning. In 64 if you just want to run through and beat Bowser you can pretty easily find 70 stars that you don't think are a chore. You can skip entire paintings. The game opens up pretty quickly after getting star #1.
 
S

_SAKY_

Member
Gaf has already disputed any game that should have a remote chance of being agreed upon. I see a lot of games that have no business being on that list. Its been aproxamently 15 years since I have played the game but I can't think of single flaw in it.

Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker is NOT better than Mario 64 because of the terrible amounts of minless sailing that litters the game. Especially when trying to collect Triforce pieces. Even the HD remaster doesn't do an adequate enough job of fixing this issue.
 
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