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[bjork]

I bookmarked this thread way back and forgot until now, heh. I saw that they added Japanese to the options in Duolingo, so I started that about three weeks ago, and I feel like it's missing something. It teaches you character sounds, but then will dump you straight into sentence structure without any sort of instruction. If you make a mistake, it shows you the right answer, but I don't feel like I'm actually learning in a proper method.

So I'm gonna try some of the options listed in the OP. I would mainly like to be able to casually read untranslated manga, but if I could be fluent enough to understand spoken as well, big bonus. I don't expect it to be easy, though.

 

[Aiii]

I prefer Memrise over Duolingo, but it's only really a tool to expand vocabulary. However, Memrise has a better teaching method and is overall a nicer app imo.

I like the Japanese From Zero books for teaching you about the grammar step by step, while doing Memrise for fun.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

I bookmarked this thread way back and forgot until now, heh. I saw that they added Japanese to the options in Duolingo, so I started that about three weeks ago, and I feel like it's missing something. It teaches you character sounds, but then will dump you straight into sentence structure without any sort of instruction. If you make a mistake, it shows you the right answer, but I don't feel like I'm actually learning in a proper method.

So I'm gonna try some of the options listed in the OP. I would mainly like to be able to casually read untranslated manga, but if I could be fluent enough to understand spoken as well, big bonus. I don't expect it to be easy, though.

The thing with the Duolingo mobile app is this. On the website it has before you start each lesson instructions and notes about what you are going to be doing; these for whatever reason is not included with the mobile app and because the Japanse course is using features not yet compatible with the website you can't even access the Japanese course webpage to see these notes.
Duolingo is a good supplementary source for studying and while It would be fine if you was studying other languages and only starting out with the Duolingo, I wouldn't do Duolingo solely while starting out with Japanese. If you want to get most out of Duolingo I would say do what I do with it and buy a Marker Board to write down the sentences and Characters you are learning on it as without doing that you won't know how to write only read.

 

[dofry]

It's a little hidden; menu on the top right, then menu again from the dropdown, then settings. Then select the settings' account tab, api key should be there.


And I quite like Wanikani as well. Ordered the genki books a couple weeks ago so for now I'm just using wanikani and genki as sources for vocab. I have decided I really don't like Anki; the basic user experience really isn't very good, doing basic things just feels slightly too hard and while it is super adaptable some core things aren't and I'm somewhat skeptical of some of those choices in e.g. the core SRS algorithm. I ended up just programming my own SRS out of frustration eventually in python, because I knew it would only take me a couple hours (a digital flashcard app with spaced review really isn't rocket science), because I didn't feel like spending loads of time figuring how Anki can be modded, and then probably still end up with an experience I don't quite like.

Funy thing is that Gary Bernhardt (https://twitter.com/garybernhardt) -- who is one of the guys I sort of look up to as a programmer -- apparently is doing the exact same thing, also for doing Japanese vocab. Should maybe send him a mail to see what he cooked up.

The iPhone app does not have a menu on the upper right/left, only the current level. The lower right Settings menu has no user account options. I'll check on PC now.

 

[bjork]

I prefer Memrise over Duolingo, but it's only really a tool to expand vocabulary. However, Memrise has a better teaching method and is overall a nicer app imo.

I like the Japanese From Zero books for teaching you about the grammar step by step, while doing Memrise for fun.

I actually have the first three books of JFZ, I guess I'll dive into those.

The thing with the Duolingo mobile app is this. On the website it has before you start each lesson instructions and notes about what you are going to be doing; these for whatever reason is not included with the mobile app and because the Japanse course is using features not yet compatible with the website you can't even access the Japanese course webpage to see these notes.
Duolingo is a good supplementary source for studying and while It would be fine if you was studying other languages and only starting out with the Duolingo, I wouldn't do Duolingo solely while starting out with Japanese. If you want to get most out of Duolingo I would say do what I do with it and buy a Marker Board to write down the sentences and Characters you are learning on it as without doing that you won't know how to write only read.

I had no idea about the website content, that's good to know. Maybe with the books above, I'll be able to get more out of Duolingo at a later point in time.

 

[Snow]

The iPhone app does not have a menu on the upper right/left, only the current level. The lower right Settings menu has no user account options. I'll check on PC now.

Those instructions were with me having the website open on the iPhone. If you are using one of the dedicated apps, try just opening wanikani.com in safari?

 

[kingslunk]

Can some explain to me why
どうも ありがとう leaves the last o sound off doumo to pronounce it "doum"?

Just started learning a few weeks ago. Is it just common to drop it like words ending in す to drop the u sound?

 

[Porcile]

I don't know the technical term but It's very common in every day speak to shorten the sound of certain syllables at the end of a word: desu > dess, taku > takk etc. Something like that. People will actually say Kyoto like "Kyot"

 

[Kilrogg]

Can some explain to me why
どうも ありがとう leaves the last o sound off doumo to pronounce it "doum"?

Just started learning a few weeks ago. Is it just common to drop it like words ending in す to drop the u sound?

They don't, and you shouldn't. The vowel might be somewhat reduced and de-emphasized in fairly rapid speech, that's true, but that's it, and it's still there if you listen anyway. You're just not used to hearing Japanese yet - which is only natural after a few weeks of study -, so you can't hear it. But it's there. This kind of shortening happens in most spoken languages I'd imagine. But there is no such thing as 100% dropping a vowel in Japanese, because it would fuck up the mora-based rhythm of the language (i.e. each syllable has almost exactly the same duration as the others).

A legitimate case of the Japanese actually completely dropping a consonant (not because of some pronunciation rule, but because it's easier to say when you're speaking fast) is すみません; it'll sometimes lose the first "m" and become すいません in speech.

 

[Hypron]

JLPT results for people living in Japan are out. Overseas results should come out today too.

 

[snap]

I'm going to be visiting Japan in December so I thought it would be a good idea to start learning a little bit of Japanese--not enough to be fluent, but enough to be able to converse to ask for directions or order a meal. I've started using Duolingo to get into it (I previously used it to get semi-fluent in Esperanto) but it's focusing quite a lot on learning simple Kanji at first--I have the Google Translate app to translate written Japanese (at least the feature where you can translate real-world text word lens style).

Would you guys recommend something more fitting for what I'm looking for? Or is using Duolingo sufficient for my needs? I have four-ish months, so something slower to fit alongside my grad classes would be nice.

 

[dani_dc]

Failed N3 by two points (93 out of 180).
Not too bad considering I didn't expect to pass, but somehow the result managed to find a way to frustrate me by being so close.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

I'm going to be visiting Japan in December so I thought it would be a good idea to start learning a little bit of Japanese--not enough to be fluent, but enough to be able to converse to ask for directions or order a meal.

Honestly, DuoLingo doesn't look like it's very good for Japanese. You also don't have much time; Japanese has a sort of "learning handicap" compared to other languages, in that it takes a lot longer to get to the "basic understanding" level as an English speaker than it does with most Western languages. Your best bet is probably going to be Human Japanese (available as a smartphone or PC app), plus a phrasebook. Start working on Human Japanese ASAP and after you've got your most basic foundations set start memorizing key phrases from your phrasebook. You probably won't be able to get to any kind of real conversational level, but you can probably get basic navigation and stuff down by then.

Failed N3 by two points (93 out of 180).
Not too bad considering I didn't expect to pass, but somehow the result managed to find a way to frustrate me by being so close.

Look on the bright side, such a close fail means that you really don't need to bother taking the N3 again, just review your weak areas and push forwards towards N2!

 

[Hypron]

So I passed N4 with 128/180 (language knowledge 97/120, listening 31/60). Better score all around than the one I got for N5, but that listening score is still pretty shit.

I'll sign up for N3 this week. I've already bought a listening practice textbook to go through, hopefully that helps me out.

Edit: Just came back from signing up for N3. Something to look forward to in 3 and a half months.

 

[snap]

Honestly, DuoLingo doesn't look like it's very good for Japanese. You also don't have much time; Japanese has a sort of "learning handicap" compared to other languages, in that it takes a lot longer to get to the "basic understanding" level as an English speaker than it does with most Western languages. Your best bet is probably going to be Human Japanese (available as a smartphone or PC app), plus a phrasebook. Start working on Human Japanese ASAP and after you've got your most basic foundations set start memorizing key phrases from your phrasebook. You probably won't be able to get to any kind of real conversational level, but you can probably get basic navigation and stuff down by then.

I've installed the lite version of Human Japanese to try it out. I'm surprised that you're saying I don't have much time, though I guess for most people it'd be hard to move away from the roman alphabet and related sounds. My parents are Indian, and from watching lots of Indian soap operas, Bollywood movies, and their occasional conversation between each other in their native tongues, I can understand some Hindi and Punjabi (but unable to speak it myself--I've found the same thing happen with Spanish and Esperanto, where I'm barely able to put together a phrase but reading or hearing it spoken, I'll be able to understand the gist of it).

Hopefully this will help expedite my understanding of Japanese.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

I've installed the lite version of Human Japanese to try it out. I'm surprised that you're saying I don't have much time, though I guess for most people it'd be hard to move away from the roman alphabet and related sounds.

It's likely that you'll have an easier time coming from a multilingual background, but it's not just the writing system, it's that the fundamental grammar and even the way that things are conceptualized and packaged as information is quite far removed from western languages. Depending on the pace you set it's certainly possible to move through the language at a solid clip, but it's certainly not the norm. Most college courses are paced such that take about two years to cover "elementary Japanese" by which point you're theoretically able to carry out a conversation, but only in a very proper way and with essentially no understanding of colloquial speech or real casual conversation, let alone idioms or specialized vocabulary – plus most courses leave you functionally illiterate until the third or fourth year of study. On the other hand a year in an intensive language school can leave you fairly capable of daily life and conversation.

I only mentioned it because you said you wanted an "easygoing pace" to fit in alongside your graduate studies, which is understandable. But if you're not going all in, it's just not likely that you're going to make the progress that you might expect or hope for in just three to four months.

 

[Raw64life]

I peep this thread every once in a while but mostly forget about it as well. I've been studying Japanese on and off for the past year, but without any real kind of real consistency. I noticed a post a couple of pages back where a guy who started learning basically the same time as me has already taken the N4, whereas I haven't even looked into taking the N5 yet.

I've mostly just used WaniKani for kanji and Human Japanese for everything else. I got up to level 15 on WaniKani but it started to get overwhelming so what I did is for about 3 months, I continued to do reviews but wouldn't learn any lessons. So I did level 15 now but I'm doing half a chapter at a time, trying to make sure I never get too much more than 100 reviews to do a day. I know it's not ideal but it helps me feel not overwhelmed.

I've been using Duolingo everyday since the day they introduced the Japanese beta, but it's really more of a practice app than anything. If I hadn't ran through Human Japanese before starting Duolingo I'd probably be confused about a lot of things. As for reading I've mostly just done NHK Easy and Dundecat. I bought the Japanese version of Dragon Quest XI but it's been a real struggle and it's the first time I ever tried to play a Japanese game and translate as I go and I found myself not having much fun despite DQ being my all time favorite franchise.

I've dabbled in a ton of other apps/sites, but I found the 3 apps I mentioned above have kept my attention the most. I figure I should probably take the N5 next go around to see where I stand. Even though I've been learning in slow motion I think I know enough to pass it by now. If I do well enough on it I might consider actually making an attempt at writing and/or speaking Japanese, both of which I currently never have the opportunity to do.

 

[AuthenticM]

I might start learning Japanese this Fall. I'm excited.

 

[Hypron]

Raw64life, if you can read NHKEasy, the JLPT N5 should be easy mode. NHKEasy is around N4 in terms of grammar, and maybe N3+ in terms of vocabulary.

 

[dani_dc]

Look on the bright side, such a close fail means that you really don't need to bother taking the N3 again, just review your weak areas and push forwards towards N2!

Aa tempting as that is, with only a bit over 3 months for the next exam, I don't think I have the availability to study enough for the N2, I'll give N3 another whirl this December and try N2 next July.

 

[dofry]

I might start learning Japanese this Fall. I'm excited.

Don't do 'I might', just do join us!

It's a lot of fun eventually. Keep at it and do the exercises. I sucked for a long time until I kind of got it. Some are faster, some are slower. I used to be slow and a bit shy when speaking, now I enjoy talking.

-------------

Sidenote: I find it a bit frustrating that I need to study English-Japanese because there is not enough Finnish-Japanese material available. Finnish pronounciation is 95% japanese, so some of the mnemonics are a bit weird to remember sometimes. I need my brain to switch to English a bit more.

Also, over the years in Japan I've noticed that my English is becoming worse and I am simplifying my speeches and starting to make the same stupid mistakes that Japanese tend to make. Haha

 

[Raw64life]

Raw64life, if you can read NHKEasy, the JLPT N5 should be easy mode. NHKEasy is around N4 in terms of grammar, and maybe N3+ in terms of vocabulary.

Well it's extremely rare that I can actually read an entire article without having to look something up. I think that's happened maybe twice in the 6 months or so I've been reading articles on there.

Since WaniKani has been the bulk of my studying, I've actually found the hardest parts of reading NHK articles to be when there are long stretches of hiragana without any kanji in it. I usually run into words I don't know and then I don't know what's a particle and what's vocabulary anymore.

I definitely need to drill grammar more. Are there any good sites that are specifically for drilling stuff you'll need to know for JLPTs?

 

[Reversed]

I'm going to take N4 in december and my N5 listening test was really bad (although in the rank A, it was very close to B). Any suggestions to work on that? I'm about to work on all the lessons from the book MNN volume 2 for beginners.

 

[Sakura]

I'm going to take N4 in december and my N5 listening test was really bad (although in the rank A, it was very close to B). Any suggestions to work on that? I'm about to work on all the lessons from the book MNN volume 2 for beginners.

Only thing I can suggest really is to listen to Japanese people talk. Be it anime, drama, etc. Don't rely on subtitles if you can.

 

[Makai]

Just learned Hiragana. This is so easy - much easier than Chinese.

 

[Porcile]

Erm I think you should know something.

 

[Resilient]

Just learned Hiragana. This is so easy - much easier than Chinese.

careful. The last guy that said Japanese was so easy got perma'd.

 

[Aiii]

To be fair, hiragana as well as katakana is fairly easy to learn, shouldn't take more as an afternoon for each.

But then you find out about the grammar, kanji, multiple readings of just about everything and that you know absolutely nothing.

Katakana is the most fun to learn since it's used for foreign loanwords and mostly English so you can easily figure those out without actually learning the specific word.

Either way, don't lose heart.

 

[JimPanzer]

Just learned Hiragana. This is so easy - much easier than Chinese.

Dead.

 

[Raw64life]

Just signed up for the N5 this morning. I haven't had to take a written exam of any kind in about 8 years. Just thinking about it gives me that special kind of anxiety that only test taking can give me. Can't say it's a feeling I miss.

I'm going to take N4 in december and my N5 listening test
was really bad (although in the rank A, it was very close to B). Any suggestions to work on that? I'm about to work on all the lessons from the book MNN volume 2 for beginners.

I've done a few practice exercises for the N5 and I aced pretty much every part of it except for listening, which was dreadful. Even after getting it wrong I had to play the audio like a dozen times before I figured it out. Definitely the part of the exam I'm dreading the most.

 

[the-pi-guy]

Just learned Hiragana. This is so easy - much easier than Chinese.

Oh boy.

I feel like there's a rude awakening coming pretty soon...

 

[RangerBAD]

So I've spent almost two years on italki trying to find people to talk to. It's been a miserable failure and a waste of time. It's for people to hire tutors and nothing else (even if it advertises otherwise). I'm at a loss for what to do. I'm sure it's hindered my progress in ways. It almost makes me feel like I'm the problem. lol

 

[Pixeluh]

So I've spent almost two years on italki trying to find people to talk to. It's been a miserable failure and a waste of time. It's for people to hire tutors and nothing else (even if it advertises otherwise). I'm at a loss for what to do. I'm sure it's hindered my progress in ways. It almost makes me feel like I'm the problem. lol

If you want to talk to people, there are plenty of ways! You could use twitter, make friends on lang-8, or even use the app HelloTalk. I'm sure there is probably discords out there that are open to this kind of thing too.

But are you on italki to talk to people or to get a tutor? If it's because you want a tutor and can't find one after 2 years, then yeah, the problem might be you (?)

 

[RangerBAD]

If you want to talk to people, there are plenty of ways! You could use twitter, make friends on lang-8, or even use the app HelloTalk. I'm sure there is probably discords out there that are open to this kind of thing too.

But are you on italki to talk to people or to get a tutor? If it's because you want a tutor and can't find one after 2 years, then yeah, the problem might be you (?)

No, just exchanges. That's what I meant. Through my interactions on the site, it seems the best way to get something out of italki is to use a tutor. The last two years have taught me that. People who wanted exchanges would message me a few times and then flake out. No one was really serious, I guess.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I didn't realize this thread was a thing? I need to refresh myself now.

 

[Porcile]

No, just exchanges. That's what I meant. Through my interactions on the site, it seems the best way to get something out of italki is to use a tutor. The last two years have taught me that. People who wanted exchanges would message me a few times and then flake out. No one was really serious, I guess.

I found two people on Lang-8 who even became my friends here in Japan. Its a bit like dating I suppose. Maybe you have to try a bunch of people before you find one person. I don't suggest italki or any place where paying money to someone is involved as an option since the default preference for people is going to be "Please pay me."

 

[Jintor]

i found partners all over on lang-8 and italki, but yeah, it's very reminiscent of dating... especially with the amount of effort you need to put in to get good development out of it. in this instance i tended to be the flake.

i did learn how to speak about video game resolution options in japanese though

 

[Porcile]

Anyone here read 世界から猫が消えたなら? Bought it for my Kindle which has been severely underused so far.

 

[faridmon]

I started to go to this newly established Japanese Study/self-study group using Japanese for busy people. So far so good. About 2 months in and we have learnt simple vocabs of Places, Time (Days/Months,etc) Adjectives as well grammatical rules of sentence. I am currently self learning Hiragana so thats a start.

I'll start following this thread more closely from now on, although I suspect you guys are way ahead of me when it comes to the Language

 

[Makai]

Since I memorized hiragana and katakana, my plan is text-based language immersion - reading the untranslated Naruto manga and looking up new vocabulary when I get to it. Doing well so far, especially since all the kanji have kana annotations.

 

[faridmon]

Since I memorized hiragana and katakana, my plan is text-based language immersion - reading the untranslated Naruto manga and looking up new vocabulary when I get to it. Doing well so far, especially since all the kanji have kana annotations.

Dragon Quest games tend to have Furigana, and I am planning to play it once I reach enough understanding of the language

 

[kmax]

Since I memorized hiragana and katakana, my plan is text-based language immersion - reading the untranslated Naruto manga and looking up new vocabulary when I get to it. Doing well so far, especially since all the kanji have kana annotations.

I understand the temptation, but i think you're better off learning basic and intermediate grammar and everyday vocabulary by picking up a textbook before jumping to manga. Not to say that learning from manga is a bad idea, but you'll need a solid foundation of the language in order to make the best of it.

Best of luck. Learning the language is a fun journey in and of itself~.

 

[Pixeluh]

Dragon Quest games tend to have Furigana, and I am planning to play it once I reach enough understanding of the language

DQ VII for the 3DS was a very fun game! I think the game was fun to play, while also being challenging to read. There's a lot of vocabulary words that are weird because it's in a fantasy setting, but the furigana really helps with all of that. There is also scripts online as well as videos on youtube if you ever get stuck and don't know where to go, etc.

 

[Lunarwhale]

I understand the temptation, but i think you're better off learning basic and intermediate grammar and everyday vocabulary by picking up a textbook before jumping to manga. Not to say that learning from manga is a bad idea, but you'll need a solid foundation of the language in order to make the best of it.

Best of luck. Learning the language is a fun journey in and of itself~.

Agreed - at the very least, getting some foundational grammar down is very helpful! Just spend some of your study sessions (like... a week or two if you want to rush it) reading through some text books so that you'll have the ideas in the back of your head. It makes dissecting sentences a lot easier (especially if there isn't much/any kanji in play).

That being said, I do understand wanting to rush into reading as fast as you can, and I think it's worth doing! Learning a language is like exercise in that you really will notice your progress if you have the discipline to keep with it. Reading is a fun way to gauge how far you've come, and it's worth tossing yourself in the deep end once in a while to see how well you do.

 

[JimPanzer]

Since I memorized hiragana and katakana, my plan is text-based language immersion - reading the untranslated Naruto manga and looking up new vocabulary when I get to it. Doing well so far, especially since all the kanji have kana annotations.

you won't get immersed if you have to look up every word and grammar point. you might get through a manga aimed at kids, but are you really learning a language that way? seems to me you are just drawing connections between the pictures and words without understanding anything about the actual structure used in the language.

 

[Alanae]

To add to the replies above, you can spend a week or two just reading through http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar to at least get the grammar basics down. When reading, even just recognizing that you've seen these things before sometime will go a long way in avoiding the struggle of constantly mixing up/not being able to tell apart grammar, nouns, verbs, etc.

 

[Resilient]

To the people who wanna read Manga and play DQ. Just consider what your goals are. If your goals are to play DQ and read manga raws, then go for it now. But don't expect that to translate into being able to read the news, understand exam questions, or speak with other people. At best you'll expand your Vocab.

Basically, don't treat it as a study tool. Treat it as a wind down after studying traditionally for a few hours that day.

 

[Alanae]

If your goals are to play DQ and read manga raws, then go for it now. But don't expect that to translate into being able to read the news, understand exam questions, or speak with other people. At best you'll expand your Vocab.

It will lead to it though.
Learning to read isn't something that magically just limits itself to only just the thing you're reading at moment. Rather, everything you read further builds onto your ability to do so.
Sure, one is not as likely to come across much financial and political terminology when reading shounen manga, but in that case you can just use the reading skills you've built up and go and gather those by reading something like jp.reuters.com and looking up a lot in a dictionary.
For practicing speaking you're indeed going to have to speak but I don't really think that that's particularly related to whether or not you decide to read manga for practice. (one can also always just start practicing that later when their sense of Japanese sentence structure is better)

 

[Kilrogg]

Resilient is just being salty because he expected Dragon Quest XI to make him fluent when it's really just babby Japanese .

But yeah, gotta agree with you, Alanae. Reading also builds confidence. The more you read, the the more you can read, and the more you feel you can read.

 

[Porcile]

Problem with manga is that as opposed to being a test of your reading ability, it's actually going to be a test of your understanding of spoken Japanese in a ridiculously stylish form. Personally, for reading, and if you're going for language immersion, I would recommend a book, magazine or newspaper.