Support NeoGAF

[strange headache]

Looks like Amazon will get the opportunity to get its greedy corporate fingers on more than just the appendices:

Hollywood is about to stampede into Middle Earth. An array of movie, merchandising, gaming and live event rights to “Lord of the Rings,” “The Hobbit” and other titles from author J.R.R. Tolkien are coming up for auction now that the Saul Zaentz Co. has decided to sell its Tolkien holdings.

Zaentz Co. has hired ACF Investment Bank to handle the sale process, which is unfolding this week as bankers make the rounds of the logical Hollywood buyers. The Tolkien properties are projected to fetch at least $2 billion, based on recent high valuations for top-tier IP and content producers.

Representatives for Zaentz Co. and ACF declined to comment.

The timing of the sale process is not accidental. Amazon is set to premiere its long-awaited, mega-budgeted TV series rendition of the enduring “Lord of the Rings” saga, “Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power,” on Sept. 2. Amazon is at the top of the list of prime candidates to pursue the additional rights now held by Zaentz.

The rights are heavily contested between Zaentz, WB and the Tolkien estate, so plenty of litigation to go before the rights will finally be settled. Amazon will probably win the ensuing bidding war so I fully expect them to remake the LOTR and Hobbit trilogy for a newer global audience.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

In before ‘Sauron was just misunderstood’.

 

[SirKicksalot]

WB is not letting this go, that's why they have the animated movie with Boyens on board.

 

[Pagusas]

WB is not letting this go, that's why they have the animated movie with Boyens on board.

WB's war chest can't compete. Lawyers are their only avenue

 

[EverydayBeast]

Big companies buying things is a real moment these days.

 

[Pejo]

Big companies buying things is a real moment these days.

It's the prequel to "and ruining them", which we'll see in 3-5 years.

 

[strange headache]

WB's war chest can't compete. Lawyers are their only avenue

Probably Amazon right now:

 

[theclaw135]

WB is not letting this go, that's why they have the animated movie with Boyens on board.

For the time being, WB isn't losing what rights they already have.

Zaentz is looking to exit the LOTR business, by divesting themselves of any and all Tolkien holdings.

 

[ManaByte]

WB is not letting this go, that's why they have the animated movie with Boyens on board.

‘Lord of the Rings’ and ‘The Hobbit’ Film and Gaming Rights Up for Sale (EXCLUSIVE)

Movie and gaming rights to 'Lord of the Rings,' 'The Hobbit' and other J.R.R. Tolkien titles have been put up for sale by Saul Zaentz Co.

variety.com

But it’s understood that in the Zaentz Co.’s view, substantial live-action film rights reverted back to them last year in part because Warner Bros. had not been actively developing new “LOTR” and related content.

 

[jason10mm]

Getting out while the gettings good?

How is this IP worth so much? I bet you could buy Dennis L Mckiernans budget version for like 5 mill, tops. His shit would rock.

Same with Stephen Donaldsons Covenant series. Peter Hamilton Nights Dawn. So many good fucking series, look past tolkein!

 

[haxan7]

I wish they’d just leave Tolkien alone for another couple decades. Anything they make is gonna be a focus grouped Marvel “thrill ride” mess.

 

[BaneIsPain]

Regardless of who's buying it. I'm not excited. Leave it alone.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

Getting out while the gettings good?

How is this IP worth so much? I bet you could buy Dennis L Mckiernans budget version for like 5 mill, tops. His shit would rock.

Same with Stephen Donaldsons Covenant series. Peter Hamilton Nights Dawn. So many good fucking series, look past tolkein!

Not sure if serious, but TLOR and Hobbit made a billie before every other movie was making a bil. It outgrossed the PT (and we all remember how people were hyped for that). It outgrossed SM original trilogy. It outgrossed TDK trilogy.

This is one of the biggest IPs out there and that's not really debatable. The numbers prove it.

I wish they’d just leave Tolkien alone for another couple decades. Anything they make is gonna be a focus grouped Marvel “thrill ride” mess.

Tolkien sold the rights to the movies, in perpetuity, to UA. It then ended in Saul Zaentz's hands. Surprised it's taken this long to sell it. If I had the rights I would have sold it quite a while back.

‘Lord of the Rings’ and ‘The Hobbit’ Film and Gaming Rights Up for Sale (EXCLUSIVE)

Movie and gaming rights to 'Lord of the Rings,' 'The Hobbit' and other J.R.R. Tolkien titles have been put up for sale by Saul Zaentz Co.

variety.com

Warner Bros.' movement on the anime "Lord of the Rings" film comes at a time when the studio is in a dispute with the Saul Zaentz Co., the longtime owner of "LOTR" film and TV rights, over whether Warner Bros. has done enough development on the franchise to maintain its hold on live-action and animated film rights.

WB seems to be disputing it, which will make people bidding for this a bit apprehensive.

‘Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim’ Anime Feature Set for April 2024 Release by Warner Bros. (EXCLUSIVE)

"The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim," the original anime feature set in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth, will debut in April 2024.

variety.com

The rumored valuation for this, btw, is the baseline people should use if when talking about SM movie rights valuation. Sony may want 10B but the fair value of a major IP was just given to us.

Amazon paid 250MM for TV rights (presumably inclusive of Live Action and Animated)
The rights that might go for sale include ALL movies (i.e. theatrical, DTV, etc), merchandise, gaming, theme park, live events for TLOR AND The Hobbit. Also includes matching of certain rights for other Tolkien work. Does not include distribution to previous movies. All of this is expected to fetch ~2B.

Sony's Spider-Man rights include movies with initial theatrical distribution and half of DTV movies (Marvel owns the other DTV movie rights). Limited Live Action TV rights (Marvel has some veto power on live action tv rights). Everything else is not included.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Isn't both LotR and Hobbit set to Public Domain in 26 years? This sale is basically only good for something that will last a short time

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

Isn't both LotR and Hobbit set to Public Domain in 26 years? This sale is basically only good for something that will last a short time

Marvel Studios brought in 25B gross in 14 years from movie tickets alone. LOTR trilogy + Hobbit Trilogy brought in over 5B gross from 6 movies. You can probably assume a 20% profit margin there. Plus all other ways to mine the IP I think whoever buys it would be fine. Plus trademark doesn't expire and they'll be able to use those adaptations forever.

Plenty of potential bidders here.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

...look past tolkein!

Be Silent! Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth.

 

[Elysion]

Isn't both LotR and Hobbit set to Public Domain in 26 years? This sale is basically only good for something that will last a short time

That makes me wonder about all the old Disney stuff (Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck etc.), as well as all those superhero IPs from the 30s (Batman, Superman). Are those going to became public domain too?

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

That makes me wonder about all the old Disney stuff (Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck etc.), as well as all those superhero IPs from the 30s (Batman, Superman). Are those going to became public domain too?

Depends on the country of origin. UK has different laws for when work goes into public domain. US is 95 years IIRC unless another copyright extension happens then Mickey is going into public domain next year, specifically steamboat willie. Donald Duck would be in 26 or 29. Batman would be in 34 and Supes in 33.

 

[jason10mm]

That makes me wonder about all the old Disney stuff (Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck etc.), as well as all those superhero IPs from the 30s (Batman, Superman). Are those going to became public domain too?

Seems inevitable to me. Though copyrite/trademark laws I think still apply to a lot of what we think of for these characters. Could superman even fly originally?

 

[NecrosaroIII]

That makes me wonder about all the old Disney stuff (Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck etc.), as well as all those superhero IPs from the 30s (Batman, Superman). Are those going to became public domain too?

Copyright law has changed so much I. The last 100 years in large part because of Disney lobbying for revisions. Ideally it would hit PD, but we'll see.

 

[Ionian]

That makes me wonder about all the old Disney stuff (Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck etc.), as well as all those superhero IPs from the 30s (Batman, Superman). Are those going to became public domain too?

Copyright Term Extension Act - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is a good read. No doubt they'll find a way to get an extension like before through lobbying for changes. Bare in mind that a lot of their older films are based on public domain characters and stories Snow White for example is public domain but their take on it isn't. They own the copyright only on their interpretation but have deep enough pockets to bully anyone else who tries to copy theirs.

 

[jason10mm]

I don't think they can get another extension. There are just as many giant distributors that WANT to get their greedy mitts on new PD IP as there are giant creators clinging to their longheld (or recently purchased at great cost) IP.

I think the general public wants more in the PD. This will also force some innovation, both in allowing renegade adaptations of new PD and forcing rights holders to have to move on.

But I'm curious how safe a new PD work is. If I take an early superman work now in the PD, assuming there was a Jimmy Olsen in it, and I make Jimmy black, will WB come after me for copyright due to the black Jimmy Olsen in the CW Supergirl show? Do they still "own" that specific variant? So we may see a lot of adaptations that are super adherent to the original IP which might end up being "problematic" for today.

But I don't see how Disney or WB can really say they are being threatened. The recent Andy Serkis "Jungle Book" in no way hurt Disney's animated or CG versions. I dont anyone will seriously throw big tentpole film money at a superman movie sticking just to the early stuff. But some sort of budget noir film could be AWESOME. I doubt these folks make any money on sales of the old media, so if steamboat willy shows up on amazon that isn't gonna beggar Disney. And good luck using SW as the mascot for your youtube page, I'm sure Disney will come after you for something.

Just don't poke the bear and relish in all the other stuff now flowing into the PD so we can finally move away from endless Sherlock Holmes, shakespeare, Bronte, and Lovecraft stuff

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

I don't think they can get another extension. There are just as many giant distributors that WANT to get their greedy mitts on new PD IP as there are giant creators clinging to their longheld (or recently purchased at great cost) IP.

I think the general public wants more in the PD. This will also force some innovation, both in allowing renegade adaptations of new PD and forcing rights holders to have to move on.

But I'm curious how safe a new PD work is. If I take an early superman work now in the PD, assuming there was a Jimmy Olsen in it, and I make Jimmy black, will WB come after me for copyright due to the black Jimmy Olsen in the CW Supergirl show? Do they still "own" that specific variant? So we may see a lot of adaptations that are super adherent to the original IP which might end up being "problematic" for today.

But I don't see how Disney or WB can really say they are being threatened. The recent Andy Serkis "Jungle Book" in no way hurt Disney's animated or CG versions. I dont anyone will seriously throw big tentpole film money at a superman movie sticking just to the early stuff. But some sort of budget noir film could be AWESOME. I doubt these folks make any money on sales of the old media, so if steamboat willy shows up on amazon that isn't gonna beggar Disney. And good luck using SW as the mascot for your youtube page, I'm sure Disney will come after you for something.

Just don't poke the bear and relish in all the other stuff now flowing into the PD so we can finally move away from endless Sherlock Holmes, shakespeare, Bronte, and Lovecraft stuff

Depends on what you do. If you use Supes "S" or the powers introduced later on they can definitely sue you. If you use the original work and change it to your liking then you'll be fine. Trademark doesn't expire, so those adaptations will forever be theirs.

People won't be able to monetize the Mickey Mouse logo or the likeness, but they can adapt the work. After it goes to public domain someone can create a new steamboat willie with a realistic mouse using autotunes instead of whistles and monetize it.

 

[jason10mm]

I wonder if Disney will spew out a million variations of SW just to squat on them to prevent casual adoption. They have the $$$ to tie up most folk in litigation for the rest of their lives.

I feel like we already have so many "pseudo copywrited" clones of newer popular IP that this won't change much other than they may not need to call it "Titanium Man" instead of Superman. Probably be decades before we see multiple "legit" DC superman movies of equal weight competing with each other.

 

[strange headache]

Disney's success was built on fairy tales and intellectual property that went into public domain. I hope all their IPs become public domain in due time, maybe then they will be incentivized to create new and engaging material.

 

[Darchaos]

Leave it alone, we dont need everything to get destroyed by the "woke". But i guess it wont be left alone and it wouldent surprise me to see: Producer: Resetera, in the credits....

 

[Billbofet]

I don't see how LotR could ever be topped or how any more bullshit could even be squeezed out of what was already done with the Hobbit trilogy.

Whatever they do with it, I just hope it takes place on Tatooine.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

I wonder if Disney will spew out a million variations of SW just to squat on them to prevent casual adoption. They have the $$$ to tie up most folk in litigation for the rest of their lives.

I feel like we already have so many "pseudo copywrited" clones of newer popular IP that this won't change much other than they may not need to call it "Titanium Man" instead of Superman. Probably be decades before we see multiple "legit" DC superman movies of equal weight competing with each other.

SW is decades away from going to public domain.

 

[jason10mm]

I meant steamboat willy, not Star Wars.

 

[ManaByte]

Warner Bros. Flexes ‘Lord of the Rings’ Muscle Amid Conflict Over Film Rights

The studio behind the successful 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy is disputing suggestions that its license on the Tolkien property has lapsed.

variety.com

 

[Tams]

Seems inevitable to me. Though copyrite/trademark laws I think still apply to a lot of what we think of for these characters. Could superman even fly originally?

Companies are and are going to fight over the details like that.

Winnie the Pooh is now public domain, but only the original first story. Some things are cut and dry like Tigger not being in it, so not being in the public domain yet. But I'm sure Disney will fight others over things like what Pooh's character is like.