Dragona Akehi
Retired
bmf said:
After this, squandering the entire Japanese console race, you think 3rd parties will give Nintendo more support next generation?
Hahahahahahahaha
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Media Create Sales: Sep 7-13, 2009
- Thread starter donny2112
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After this, squandering the entire Japanese console race, you think 3rd parties will give Nintendo more support next generation?
Hahahahahahahaha
Dragona Akehi said:
Maybe we're just arguing a difference in a few months here, but MH Tri hit in August and there are 4-5 games coming by the end of 2009 that could do well.
Honestly, in the end I blame Nintendo itself more for its own 1st party output.
Dragona Akehi said:
I respectfully disagree- no matter what squandering was or wasn't done, I gotta think 3rd parties will be more enthusiastic developing for Wii 2 than the console coming after the GameCube.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
schuelma said:
There is that too. But the Wii could have been an excellent return for 3rd parties to Nintendo consoles. Now I don't think it will ever happen.
Had say, FFXIII Wii version (or spinoff like Agito) been announced at the same time as MH Tri, along with DQX (which is only a very recent development), we might have seen other things happen.
As for Nintendo themselves, I don't have a fucking clue what they've been doing all this time. There's almost nothing to show for the past two years on the DS and the Wii.
schuelma said:
And I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. There's no way that 3rd parties are going to come to Wii 2 I don't think. Hell, Sony seems to have learned their hardware lesson, so I wouldn't be surprised if PS4 (PS3.5 lulz) takes the lead again thanks to (let's hope) a reasonable price and 3rd party support.
How long has PS3 had superior 3rd party support over the Wii? Despite tanking like mad?
Grampa Simpson
Banned
As opposed to Sony who produced a Gamecube level turd?Dragona Akehi said:
It would be hard for them to give any less.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
TunaLover said:
And it was never dropped, is my point.
Could the Wii be doing better than it has this year with better support from Nintendo and 3rd-parties? Absolutely. Could the Wii be maintaining a steady 50 per week. I really doubt it.Dragona Akehi said:
I've tried mentioning this before, but Japan is a DS-nation. The DS hasn't just captured the GBA market from last gen, but it has also captured the PS2 market. So the handheld and console markets have all moved over to the DS this gen. That doesn't leave enough room left over for any other system to pull a steady 50k per week. The Wii had a nice run for a while, the PSP had a nice run for a while - and both systems are back under 20k again. With the monstrous and unprecedented success of the DS, there's not enough left over for another system to have its own PS2-type success. The fact that the Wii has pulled in so many million-sellers by itself is actually pretty amazing in that context.
Anyway, with the phenomenal success the DS has found, the Japanese market would have to grow at a ridiculous rate before it could support a 2nd system on the level of the PS2. Which is why I keep trying to say that I don't think the Wii's mediocre sales have so much to do with Nintendo and/or 3rd-parties - but really have more to do with the Japanese market as a whole.
Well, they have to support someone if they want to stay in business. I suppose they could always just hold their hands out for moneyhats from Microsoft and Sony, which may or may not come next gen? Or they could band together and try to develop their own console?Dragona Akehi said:
Seriously though, Microsoft has had two kicks at the curb, and software sales have been completely non-existent on both XBoxes.
And Sony miraculously managed to turn a world-beating system into a complete and utter turd in the space of one generation.
Yeah, I think the Wii 2 may fare a little better in terms of initial support than the successor to the Gamecube.
What superior 3rd-party support has the PS3 had once you discount all of the titles which were started either before this gen began, or right at the start of this gen?Dragona Akehi said:
Dragona Akehi said:
because its continued, after FFXIII and GT5 what is there for Japan?
Its not like we have had months and months of PS3 reveals either
Plus many could argue the Wii 2 will be more compatible with the PS3 and 360 in terms of development, I doubt we will see a PS4 that is any greater than the PS3 is now. Not with the bleeding of money Sony is doing now.
Dragona Akehi said:
I don't think its as cut and dried as that. If you look at big 3rd party announcements that were clearly only in development after the consoles arrived I don't think PS3 really has that much of an edge. (I'm only talking Japanese franchises). Honestly, the only really huge 3rd party franchise that keeps being developed for PS3 after 2006-2007 seems to be Yakuza.
Dalthien said:
I think this is a really good point. Could the Wii be doing better right now? Absolutely. Should it be doing better? Absolutely. Is it realistic to expect it to be doing 40-50K when the market has clearly went south? I don't think so. Again, the PSP with a much steadier stream of releases is floundering right with the Wii. This isn't to excuse Nintendo at all..but I think the days of thinking a console right now can do 40-50K a week is over when the second place portable isn't even close to that point.
In fact, Sony has actually lost a great deal of Japanese support with the PS3.Opiate said:
You might want to sit down and take a look at the list of Japanese titles that have begun development after the first year on the market for the PS3. It's a night-and-day difference from the PS2.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
schuelma said:
I think 40-50k a week is certainly doable for a console in second place next to a first place portable. But even then, could we agree on a compromise of 30-40k?
Dragona Akehi said:
What is this based on? Third parties will go where ever they smell money. I have no idea if Wii 2 will have something as successful as Wii Sports on it, but if it does some support will follow. If it's more or less than the Wii's support probably depends on how easy it is to port games more than how emotionally hurt companies were by Nintendo not taking advantage of being market leader.
To be fair to Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft have pretty much dropped any real effort in securing Japanese targeted consoled titles as well.
Sony essentially diverted all their Japanese market resources to the PSP while Microsoft has literally just given up. I'd honestly be amazed to see another Japanese market targeted title from them at TGS.
Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Nintendo had the market in their hand, but in fairness to them their competition stopped trying as well.
Sony essentially diverted all their Japanese market resources to the PSP while Microsoft has literally just given up. I'd honestly be amazed to see another Japanese market targeted title from them at TGS.
Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Nintendo had the market in their hand, but in fairness to them their competition stopped trying as well.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
schuelma said:
37k.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
beast786 said:
NieR has been in development for a very long time, well before anyone saw the PS3 tanking.
(The 360 has always been lead.)
First off, the health of the market was very different in 2007 than in 2009, and the Wii was still coming off of its launch high, which ended up lasting longer than usual.Road said:
But yeah, there's not a great deal of interest in the Wii right now. The point is that there's not much interest in any system other than the DS. In this market, it just isn't feasible for any system to sell like the PS2 on a sustained basis whilst the DS is still king. Systems can get price cuts, or new models, or a couple big games, and go on a nice run for several months. But to consistently mirror the PS2 over the long term - not while the DS is still riding high and capturing the lion's share of the market.
vicissitudes
Banned
How can anyone argue that the PS3 isn't getting much better 3rd party support than the Wii, even today? Look at all the big franchises, where did they end up this gen?
Resident Evil 5 - PS3
Yakuza 3/4 - PS3
Street Fighter 4 - PS3
Metal Gear Solid 4 - PS3
Gundam Musou/Senki - PS3
Devil May Cry 4 - PS3
Soul Calibur 4 - PS3
Tekken 6 - PS3
Final Fantasy XIV - PS3
Tales of Vesperia - PS3
Star Ocean 4 - PS3
White Knight Chronicles 2 - PS3
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 - PS3
Disgaea 3 - PS3
I'm pretty sure most of these started development after this gen began. What big franchises did the Wii steal from PS3? Let's see there's...
Monster Hunter 3
Dragon Quest
I think that's about it. There's Tales of Graces but Tales has always been on multiple platforms anyway. I'm probably missing a few big titles but Wii's 3rd party support is seriously weak.
Resident Evil 5 - PS3
Yakuza 3/4 - PS3
Street Fighter 4 - PS3
Metal Gear Solid 4 - PS3
Gundam Musou/Senki - PS3
Devil May Cry 4 - PS3
Soul Calibur 4 - PS3
Tekken 6 - PS3
Final Fantasy XIV - PS3
Tales of Vesperia - PS3
Star Ocean 4 - PS3
White Knight Chronicles 2 - PS3
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 - PS3
Disgaea 3 - PS3
I'm pretty sure most of these started development after this gen began. What big franchises did the Wii steal from PS3? Let's see there's...
Monster Hunter 3
Dragon Quest
I think that's about it. There's Tales of Graces but Tales has always been on multiple platforms anyway. I'm probably missing a few big titles but Wii's 3rd party support is seriously weak.
vicissitudes said:
I'm restricting the argument for this thread to 3rd party announcements that A- most likely started development after 2006 and B- primarily sell in Japan.
I think your list becomes much smaller when you apply this criteria (it also shrinks when you take out late 360 ports).
A big reason for a the lack of third party support on the Wii is the hardware. Straight PS360 ports simply won't run. The PC continues to see fine support (in the west) because porting to it is a simple process.Dragona Akehi said:
There are two ways the Wii 2 may see more third party support. Rough hardware performance equivalence, and rough input method equivalence. If Natal/Wand/WiiMote stuff isn't too challenging to port between, we'll be seeing plenty of multiplat waggle games I'm sure.
I would submit that the price point of the PSP GO suggests that they haven't learnt a fucking thing.Dragona Akehi said:
Dragona Akehi
Retired
Fredescu said:
Oh I do agree that things would have been extremely different had the Wii been the PS2 (hardware powerwise) of the three consoles this generation. But Nintendo happened again!
Touché.
jeremy1456
Junior Member
vicissitudes said:
You're forgetting Samurai Warriors 3!
Well, I think it is feasible for the Wii to do better than what is doing now, to do like the PS2 and easily hover around 30~40k, despite the DS, if it had what the PS2 had: games and more games.Dalthien said:
The "launch hype" lasted longer than usual because Wii Sports was appealing for a long time. Short after came more appealing games like Wii Fit + SSBB + MKWii, and the Wii outsold the DS for a good 7 months. I.e. with appealing games, it managed to draw attention to it. That simple.
The market situation is not that defining, as I see it. If people can only buy 100k units per week and there are two appealing systems, each will get 40k and the others will fight for the left overs (that's probably why in the first half of 2008 PSP, DS and Wii were all three selling a little over 50k and no one over 100k). If there's only one system clearly more appealing than the others, we'll see it standing out in sales (and we are seeing it: the DS is performing even better this year, having the strongest line-up by a mile, than in 2008).
Yes, the DS is responsible in part for the Wii situation because 3rd parties decided it'd be better to develop (JRPGs) for it instead of the Wii. Still, it's not like the DS gets the same ubiquitous 3rd party support the PS2 did to the point there's nothing left for a 2nd place system. There's a lot left, it's just scattered on PSP, PS2, PS3, Wii and 360 making of the Wii just another one in the bunch.
vicissitudes
Banned
schuelma said:
These are all games that are made by Japanese companies, and I'm almost sure most of them started development after 2006.
I'm pretty positive Yakuza 4, Gundam Senki, FFXIV, ToV PS3, Star Ocean 4 PS3, WKC2, Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2, Disgaea 3, Tekken 6 (current version anyway) all started after 2006. Stuff like Resident Evil 5, SF4, I'm not sure about but they released just this year. That's not even counting niche titles such as Aterlier Rorona, Agrest Senki Zero, Katamari, Cross Edge, and so on. Even if some of them are also on the 360 or ported from 360, the companies still bothered with a PS3 version. That's the point, it hasn't lost support, and certainly not to the Wii.
For me, much more interesting than 'what could have been?' is 'why did they let this happen?'.
Assuming, as many seem to be, that there were many things which could have been done to retain the high sales of early 2008 and before, why weren't they done?
Possibilities:
-Nintendo is unable to create as much software of the quality it wants to in reasonable time frames. This perhaps led Iwata to say about how they were currently in a phase of 'lessening consumer expectations' because sustaining the previous excitement was simply not possible.
-Nintendo is working hard on something new, and sustaining what's out there with minimal support.
-Nintendo staff have been consumed with DS games, Wii Channels/Wii no ma TV station, etc which are given the same sort of development love as their games.
-Nintendo has not checked its sales figures for the last 18 months.
-Nintendo enjoys making games without the weight of stockholder expectation on their heads, and is trying to get rid of them!
This is an extreme interpretation of 'lessening consumer expectations', as meaning 'leave us alone with your demands for more stuff!'.
Assuming, as many seem to be, that there were many things which could have been done to retain the high sales of early 2008 and before, why weren't they done?
Possibilities:
-Nintendo is unable to create as much software of the quality it wants to in reasonable time frames. This perhaps led Iwata to say about how they were currently in a phase of 'lessening consumer expectations' because sustaining the previous excitement was simply not possible.
-Nintendo is working hard on something new, and sustaining what's out there with minimal support.
-Nintendo staff have been consumed with DS games, Wii Channels/Wii no ma TV station, etc which are given the same sort of development love as their games.
-Nintendo has not checked its sales figures for the last 18 months.
-Nintendo enjoys making games without the weight of stockholder expectation on their heads, and is trying to get rid of them!
This is an extreme interpretation of 'lessening consumer expectations', as meaning 'leave us alone with your demands for more stuff!'.Iwata said:
Dragona Akehi
Retired
swerve said:For me, much more interesting than 'what could have been?' is 'why did they let this happen?'.
Assuming, as many seem to be, that there were many things which could have been done to retain the high sales of early 2008 and before, why weren't they done?
Possibilities:
-Nintendo is unable to create as much software of the quality it wants to in reasonable time frames. This perhaps led Iwata to say about how they were currently in a phase of 'lessening consumer expectations' because sustaining the previous excitement was simply not possible.
-Nintendo is working hard on something new, and sustaining what's out there with minimal support.
-Nintendo staff have been consumed with DS games, Wii Channels/Wii no ma TV station, etc which are given the same sort of development love as their games.
-Nintendo has not checked its sales figures for the last 18 months.
-Nintendo enjoys making games without the weight of stockholder expectation on their heads, and is trying to get rid of them!
Honestly I think it comes down to one thing: profit.
For awhile there were games that were (and are) still selling at original MSRP. Why should Nintendo make new games when the ones that are already made, with money already spent, making them billions of dollars. See NSMB.
Iwata's "evergreen" plan was great for business, until the software drought hit. It's really bitten them in the ass.
Problem is, business is about spending money to make money. Nintendo were trying their damnedness to make that ratio as little money out for money coming in.
Using Schuelma's criteria here, we have to cut out FFXIV, Ninja Gaiden, and Tekken 6 as none of them sell primarily in Japan.vicissitudes said:
Also, it is worth noting that the next game from the Disgaea team is on the PSP, not the PS3.
For Tales and Star Ocean 4, I think I have to give the credit to Microsoft there, and I'm pretty sure (I think I read it in an interview) that SO4 actually started back in 2006, at least the 360 version which is essentially the same game as the PS3 one.
The PS3 definitely has a lot of third party support, but it does owe that heavily to the Western market as opposed to its performance in Japan.
Dragona Akehi said:
I think Nintendo is spending a lot of money. Advertising, building a second development studio, STARTING A TV NETWORK. They are spending in strange ways, with perhaps a view to future plans, but I don't think their plan is just to keep raking in the evergreen money *at the expense* of funding new stuff.
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
Calcaneus said:
This, we Gold fans have to have to show our support.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
swerve said:
Well I certainly can't read Iwata's mind, but going from what I can see, they sure seem to be following the evergreens into the pit of doom.