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[GigaDrive]

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13385

Hi again, I just found some new info about the DS hardware :

- 3d renders directly to lcd, no framebuffer.
- 2d is handled by gba hardware, also in ds games.
- arm9 has access to framebuffer when using bitmapped 2d modes
- lcd is 6:6:6, vram is 5:5:5
- 3d is handled 100% in hardware
- supports z-buffer, w-buffer, stencil-buffer and anti aliasing

It was on this txt :

www.auby.no/dill/specs.txt

Some of it is confirmed, some is not.
I found this link in #dsdev on Efnet

New information as of 06.06.04:

3d renders directly to lcd, no framebuffer.
2d is handled by gba hardware, also in ds games.
arm9 has access to framebuffer when using bitmapped 2d modes (gp32 ports?)
lcd is 6:6:6, vram is 5:5:5
3d is handled 100% in hardware. (yay!)
supports z-buffer, w-buffer, stencil-buffer and anti aliazing
touch-screen is functional on dev-units, wi-fi is not. (no wi-fi libs for devs yet)
carts are matrix memory 3d technology (http://www.matrixsemi.com)
you fetch data into a buffer, then read from that buffer.
It has two 2d cores, so you can effectivly have one gba on each screen if you do not want to use 3d. (one 3d core)
Dev units does not do gba games yet.
Nintendo has a full blown pc emu. (no is-agb stuff, just plain emulation. Source level debugging with cw)
Devs do not have pdfs of the new non-gba features, only paper-documents with large reg numbers on them. (alteast the one I talked to.)
The carts now have a file-system, propriarity.

DS will have two cart-ports, one for GBA and one for DS games.
DS games are (atm) about the size (physically) of an sd-card, a little thicker.
No GBA link port as of yet.

Questions unanswered as of now:

How do you split tasks between the cpus?
What part of the 2d hardware is modified, compared to gba?
Thorough check of the specs below
Does the 3d hardware do alpha?
perspective or affine tmapper hw?
soundchip?
what extensions do the arm9 support, and does it have a math co-processor?
Texture filtering?
Mipmapping?
Trilinear filtering?

-----------------------
CPU Core Main Processor

ARM946E-S (Running at 67 MHz)
Cache: 8 KB Instruction Cache
4KB Data Cache
TCM: 8KB Instruction, 4KB Data Sub Processor
ARM7TDMI (Running at 33 MHz)

Memory Main Memory - 4 MB (Debug version has 8 MB)
ARM9/ARM7 Shared - 32KB (16KB x 2) ARM7 Internal RAM - 64 KB VRAM - 656 KB

LCD Display Size - 256 x 192 RGB Screens x 2 Display Colors
262,144 colors
2D Graphics Engine

Background:
Maximum 4 layers Objects
Maximum of 128 objects

3D Graphics Engine:
Geometric Transformation: Max 4 million vertex/sec
Polygon Rate: Max 120,000 polys/sec
Pixel Fillrate: Max 30 million pixels/sec

Sound 16 channel ADPCM/PCM (Max 8 channels can be set to PSG) Microphone input

Wireless Communication 802.11 Protocol

DaveBaumann is hinting that DS uses an ATI Imageon 2300


http://www.ati.com/products/imageon2300/ATI_IMAGEON_2300.pdf

but that is very much in doubt right now.

 

[neptunes]

so 3d is hardware now? I thought it was software...

 

[neptunes]

touch-screen is functional on dev-units, wi-fi is not. (no wi-fi libs for devs yet)

so this means...no online games at launch right?

 

[DDayton]

Perhaps just no 3rd party online at launch...

 

[arter_2]

man its starting to sound better and better

 

[Ranger X]

I guess the Wi-fi function won't be much supported anyway...

 

[arter_2]

it will be just not at first i guess

 

[cvxfreak]

Hopefully Nintendo's Wireless Pokemon adventures encourage them to follow through with the WiFi support.

 

[Lord Error]

DaveBaumann is hinting that DS uses an ATI Imageon 2300

Almost certainly not, considering that 2300 does a lot of things that are obviously missing in DS. Even the things on that list are a bit dubious. Stencil buffer? Antialiasing? Who would include such things and not have something as basic as texture filtering?

 

[arter_2]

are we sure it dosnt have texture filtering or are people just asuming this from the early tech screens that where shown?

 

[Naked Snake]

are we sure it dosnt have texture filtering or are people just asuming this from the early tech screens that where shown?

People are basing this after playing the demos at E3.

 

[GigaDrive]

Marconelly:

Almost certainly not, considering that 2300 does a lot of things that are obviously missing in DS. Even the things on that list are a bit dubious. Stencil buffer? Antialiasing? Who would include such things and not have something as basic as texture filtering?

me:

but that is very much in doubt right now.

I agree, it's most probably not Imageon 2300.

someone joked that DS was using an S3 Virge ^__^

 

[AniHawk]

So... what does it all mean?

 

[Tenguman]

So... what does it all mean?

It means PSP will cost $500 and have a 2hour battery life

 

[Alcibiades]

that Metroid DS game looked somewhat pixilated (in other words, no anti-aliasing I would assume) unlike N64 games (which were pretty free of pixilation in favor of the blur thing)...

 

[AniHawk]

It means PSP will cost $500 and have a 2hour battery life

I'll buy two!

 

[Asskicker064]

- 2d is handled by gba hardware, also in ds games.

Does that mean the 2D games will only be of GBA quality?

 

[Naked Snake]

Does that mean the 2D games will only be of GBA quality?

Yeah I didn't like that one bit, I really hope it's either false or not what I think it means.

 

[GDGF]

Panajev seems to think that you can use the 3D processor to accelerate the 2D one, if I'm understanding him right.

 

[Panajev2001a]

In DS mode, the GBA chip is running at 2x the frequency which means that while all the Hardware limitations such as the max number of sprites, max number of BGs, etc... stay the same... but being 2x faster in clock-speed the DS's ARM7 can now afford more sprites per line, less slowdown when having lots of sprites scaling and rotating and dynamically updating maps and tile-sets to allow for varied and large levels.

Also, the DS has support for much bigger ROMs and ROM's size was a big issue for GBA games.

Why do you think that in some GBA games sprites' animation frames were dropped and graphics were trying to get by with 4 bits CLUTs ( 16 colors per palette and 16 palettes ) ?

Simple, they did not have much space.

Potentially, in DS mode the ARM7 CPU you found in the GBA ( the 2D Hardware engine was embedded into it ) can run in circles around the GBA several times thanks to two things: bigger ROM size and 2x the clock-frequency.

Music should have a much lower hit on the DS: a game like SOTN is definately doable on the DS without any degradation IMHO. Some effects will have to be done by the ARM9 chip if they involved 3D effects and alpha-blending effects you cannot do on GBA: remember GBA can do blending between sprites and BGs, but not between sprites and other sprites.

 

[arter_2]

thats cool so both screens will do gba better

 

[neptunes]

Nintendo has a full blown pc emu. (no is-agb stuff, just plain emulation. Source level debugging with cw)

hmmm...

 

[krypt0nian]

In DS mode, the GBA chip is running at 2x the frequency which means that while all the Hardware limitations such as the max number of sprites, max number of BGs, etc... stay the same... but being 2x faster in clock-speed the DS's ARM7 can now afford more sprites per line, less slowdown when having lots of sprites scaling and rotating and dynamically updating maps and tile-sets to allow for varied and large levels.

Also, the DS has support for much bigger ROMs and ROM's size was a big issue for GBA games.

Why do you think that in some GBA games sprites' animation frames were dropped and graphics were trying to get by with 4 bits CLUTs ( 16 colors per palette and 16 palettes ) ?

Simple, they did not have much space.

Potentially, in DS mode the ARM7 CPU you found in the GBA ( the 2D Hardware engine was embedded into it ) can run in circles around the GBA several times thanks to two things: bigger ROM size and 2x the clock-frequency.

Music should have a much lower hit on the DS: a game like SOTN is definately doable on the DS without any degradation IMHO. Some effects will have to be done by the ARM9 chip if they involved 3D effects and alpha-blending effects you cannot do on GBA: remember GBA can do blending between sprites and BGs, but not between sprites and other sprites.

Pana - I love you man! Thanks for being you.

 

[DopeyFish]

someone joked that DS was using an S3 Virge ^__^

With all honesty, i think the S3 virge could pump up better visuals than we've seen on the DS so far

 

[Crazymoogle]

Potentially, in DS mode the ARM7 CPU you found in the GBA ( the 2D Hardware engine was embedded into it ) can run in circles around the GBA several times thanks to two things: bigger ROM size and 2x the clock-frequency.

Well, even without double the clockspeed, if there is hardware onboard to handle 16 channels, then right off the bat, you're looking at a big performance upgrade.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Well, even without double the clockspeed, if there is hardware onboard to handle 16 channels, then right off the bat, you're looking at a big performance upgrade.

I think that either the ARM9 or the ARM7 with doubled clock-speed is providing these 16 sound channels .

 

[BuddyC]

very interesting stuff.

 

[Shogmaster]

so 3d is hardware now? I thought it was software...

Apprently, it's just being done on a crappy 3D hardware.

 

[Jacobi]

8 MB RAM for DS!!!

 

[Keio]

Hopefully Nintendo's Wireless Pokemon adventures encourage them to follow through with the WiFi support.

I'm sure Nintendo will do a massive announcement about one month prior to launch with the first line-up. And it will include a wireless Pokémon adventure - a true holiday killer app.

All in all the specs look good. It's nice that devs can do 2 2d screens if they want to. I'd love a version of Advance Wars where you'd have the map on the other screen and the other screen would show unit/terrain info with cool 2d art - maybe even show unit morale, condition etc. with well drawn pictures instead of power meters/numbers... and I'm rambling again...

 

[MrPing1000]

I'm sure Nintendo will do a massive announcement about one month prior to launch with the first line-up. And it will include a wireless Pokémon adventure - a true holiday killer app.

Thus it will all be over. A wireless pokemon game will be terrifying, insanely popular. Hell they could fuck it up and still sell 5m+ in Japan alone

 

[Panajev2001a]

Thus it will all be over. A wireless pokemon game will be terrifying, insanely popular. Hell they could fuck it up and still sell 5m+ in Japan alone

All over, just like thanks to Pokemon the N64 and the GCN surpassed respectively PSOne and PlayStation 2 in over-all sales.

Pokemon will surely sell a lot of software untis and hardware units, but the way we are talking about it here seems like the idea of this messiah-like software which destroys any and all opponents no matter what they do.

 

[Baron Aloha]

All over, just like thanks to Pokemon the N64 and the GCN surpassed respectively PSOne and PlayStation 2 in over-all sales.

Pokemon will surely sell a lot of software untis and hardware units, but the way we are talking about it here seems like the idea of this messiah-like software which destroys any and all opponents no matter what they do.

Except there has never been a 'real' Pokemon game for the N64 or Gamecube. If there was, then your argument might have some weight to it.

In the handheld arena, Pokemon is messiah-like software. It single handedly resuscitated the entire GB line in the mid-late 90s (which had been in a slump for a few years). Much of the Gameboy's current popularity can be attributed to Pokemon. If there is a WiFi Pokemon in development I can guarantee you that the DS will be a bonafide success and it will surpass the PSP.

 

[Insertia]

Except there has never been a 'real' Pokemon game for the N64 or Gamecube. If there was, then your argument might have some weight to it.

What makes anyone think there will be a 'real' Pokemon for DS if they didn't create one for N64 and Gamecube?

 

[Baron Aloha]

What makes anyone think there will be a 'real' Pokemon for DS if they didn't create one for N64 and Gamecube?

Did you even bother reading the thread. We were speaking hypothetically. I'll sum it up for you:

Keio : Perhaps they will announce a Wifi Pokemon for DS 1 month prior to launch

MrPing: It would be over if they do.

Pana: But Pokemon didn't save the N64 or Gamecube

Me: But N64 or Gamecube didn't have any 'real' Pokemon games.

The fact is, the reason there has never been a 'real' Pokemon on a console is because Nintendo feels that the collecting and trading aspect wouldn't work as well as it does on the handhelds. Afterall, you are far more likely to carry a GB w/ Pokemon around with you than say a GC disc. DS is a portable device therefore the possibility of us seeing a Pokemon on it is much greater. The chances are even greater when you consider wifi (which would open up a whole new world as far as trading goes).

 

[Che]

I'll buy two!

If it costs 500$ and has 2 hours battery life ----> worst choice evar! Hell, even if it costs 350$ it would be the worst choice ever.

 

[Panajev2001a]

In the handheld arena, Pokemon is messiah-like software. It single handedly resuscitated the entire GB line in the mid-late 90s (which had been in a slump for a few years). Much of the Gameboy's current popularity can be attributed to Pokemon. If there is a WiFi Pokemon in development I can guarantee you that the DS will be a bonafide success and it will surpass the PSP.

We shall see: you have your beliefs and I have mine.

 

[human5892]

Yeah, Pokemon is the most powerful video game brand name of the past ten years or so in terms of raw sales. An original Pokemon game on the DS would indeed be a messiah-like force to many people.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yeah, Pokemon is the most powerful video game brand name of the past ten years or so in terms of raw sales. An original Pokemon game on the DS would indeed be a messiah-like force to many people.

I guess then Nintendo will be forever invincible in the portable arena, right ?

 

[human5892]

I guess then Nintendo will be forever invincible in the portable arena, right ?

Well, nobody's saying that (or at least I'm not), but I do think it is a gigantic franchise to be reckoned with.

 

[arter_2]

maybe they can finally make a real 3d pokemon man that would rock.

 

[Tenguman]

If it costs 500$ and has 2 hours battery life ----> worst choice evar! Hell, even if it costs 350$ it would be the worst choice ever.

But see, having two, he doubles his battery life!

 

[Defensor]

But see, having two, he doubles his battery life!

And he will have 2 screens

 

[Mason]

It is possible for someone to make a memory card adapter so you can use a memory card as a hard drive and then use it (or Wi-Fi) to run homebrew stuff?