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New Mosque in Berlin is receiving death threats and about 3000 hate mails a day

Trokil

Banned
Link to Guardian article

The founder of a new liberal mosque in Berlin that allows men and women to pray side by side has vowed to press on with her project even though the institution has been issued with a fatwa from Egypt and attacked by religious authorities in Turkey within a week of its opening.

”The pushback I am getting makes me feel that I am doing the right thing," said Seyran Ateş, a Turkish-born lawyer and women's rights campaigner, who does not wear a hijab. ”God is loving and merciful – otherwise he wouldn't have turned me into the person I am."

The lawyer, who is currently training to become an imam, said she had received ”300 emails per day encouraging me to carry on", including from as far away as Australia and Algeria, but also ”3,000 emails a day full of hate", some of them including death threats.

This is a very important project and I hope they recieve all the help and protection they need to continue.

Interesting article on the Washington Post as well


It is a good thing that even religions start to move on, the pope also said some very important things and this new movement is a beacon of hope.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Women and men pray together at the Haram in Mecca. If they can do it there, they can do it at any mosque.
 
How much of the death threats are from Muslim haters vs other Muslims who are put off by how progressive the mosque is?

Edit: Nvm
 

13ruce

Banned
As long western people can build churches etc in muslim countries i don't see the problem with Mosque's in western countries imo.
 
How much of the death threats are from Muslim haters vs other Muslims who are put off by how progressive the mosque is?

"even though the institution has been issued with a fatwa from Egypt and attacked by religious authorities in Turkey within a week of its opening."

Come on bro.
 

TeddyBoy

Member
She is asked to pray separately from men, to cover her hair during prayer . . . and to stop praying during the days of her menstruation. . . . All these restrictions are imposed on her because they mirror the social conviction that a woman is not fully complete and perfect like a man and [that] she without doubt isn’t equal.

Wow, I've not heard this described so bluntly before. I hope other mosques across the world open up to be as liberal as this one.
 

warthog

Member
As long western people can build churches etc in muslim countries i don't see the problem with Mosque's in western countries imo.

You might want to read more than just the title.

People who oppose liberal mosques like this, should not be in western countries.
 

Jeels

Member
Topic title is really interesting because the expectation is one thing based on people's assumptions and what's going on is different.

I hope more mosques like this open up in the future.
 

Shiggy

Member
Read about this a few days ago. It's infuriating that religious authorities from other countries are able to threaten more liberal Muslims or their families abroad.

A week later, the white-walled prayer room was noticeably emptier, with the seven-strong congregation almost matched by the number of security staff who guarded the exits and entrances with blue plastic covers over their boots.

Ateş, 54, said many of the previous week’s worshippers had decided to stay away because they feared incrimination against themselves or their families. Her own relatives in Turkey had asked her to drop the project because they worried about arrests.
 
Read about this a few days ago. It's infuriating that religious authorities from other countries are able to threaten more liberal Muslims or their families abroad.
Turkey is getting really annoying with stuff like this. They seem to think they have the right to control Turkish citizens who live in other countries. It was also a big issue after the coup attempt there and with their referendum.

There are also signs that Morocco is guilty of such meddling lately with the protests in the Rif region and immigrants from those regions supporting those.

I applaud this new mosque and hope they have a bright future ahead and we see more positive developments like this.
 

Fritz

Member
Ms Ateş is a very impressive woman and has been one of the loudest advocates against conservative Islam for the longest time.

Just for some context.
 
Great initiative and I wish them all the success possible. Seems like sadly so far people have been scared of attending in larger numbers.
 
I was reading the twitter timeline of the guy who filmed the mosque attack by the white van man in the UK (and who told the sun to fuck off)

About a day before he was retweeting about this, how it's not Islam, men and women can't pray together it's haram, women can't be imams and therefor these people aren't Muslim's.

From the high of telling the sun to do one, to the low of reading that a moment later. Life comes at you fast.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Is the gender segregation in mosques due to cultural norms or from the Koran?

Both, but cultural norms are perhaps the worst mind diseases that lead to generations of literally abiding by and not challenging whatever one's parents and community did and do/what may be lifted from texts. "We just do whatever has been done for hundreds of years because... reasons/tradition/culture/it's normalised/etc". It's a humungous task to inch cultural norms in different directions, but it can be done. Especially within free, secular societies with freedom of religion where we should have no issues debating and talking about serious life matters without fear of retaliation.

Egypt's Dar al-Ifta al-Masriyyah, a state-run Islamic institution assigned to issue religious edicts, issued a statement on Monday declaring that the Ibn Rushd-Goethe mosque's practice of men and women praying side by side was incompatible with Islam, while the legal department of Egypt's al-Azhar university reacted to news from Berlin with a fatwa on the foundation of liberal mosques per se.

Turkey's main Muslim authority, Diyanet, said the new mosque's practices ”do not align with Islam's fundamental resources, principles of worship, methodology or experience of more than 14 centuries, and are experiments aimed at nothing more than depraving and ruining religion".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ue-berlin-seyran-ates-egypt-fatwa-burqa-niqab

The above is largely mixing cultural norms with politics and being dogmatic about it. It's happened for centuries so it's the way it's to be! It's even worse when you have governments who will write laws to enforce said dogma. An unfortunate problem in many Islam majority nations. Freedom of religion can't really exist when one religion gets political and takes control of the laws of the land.

One has to accept the texts are not getting rewritten, but like a lot of pressure and criticism placed on Christianity/Catholicism the goal is to lead cultural norms to change and the texts be taken for what they are ~ Words written thousands of years ago. It doesn't mean that your faith has to be taken away from you, but that you find ways to be a more compassionate person who doesn't want to oppress/suppress women. Where there is an "extra" sticking point with Islam over Christianity/Catholicism is a lot of reinforced belief that the Koran is the literal word of God and it's blasphemy to "rewrite" it, even if we're symbolically talking about rewriting it by cultural norms changing. That would be akin to not loyally following the beliefs of your maker if you ignore parts/do something against parts.

Which is why people who espouse views like the following need propped up and supported

One of the worshippers at Friday's prayer was a British Sufi called Umar, who is usually based in south-west England but was visiting Berlin for the weekend and decided to visit the mosque after reading an interview with Ateş.

The 30-year-old said he did not have a problem with men and women praying side by side: ”It's dangerous to say there are definitive rulings," he said. ”We do not have the prophet anymore. These are confusing times for Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Anything we can do to improve accessibility is a good thing."

There will be many thinking like Umar, but some are indeed scared to speak out. Umar, let alone Seyran Ateş, should be commended. Also when people/nations/governments and so forth issue fatwas/threats and appear to want to cause harm to people like her she needs global support to show other Islamic followers you do not need to be afraid to stand up for your liberal/compassionate views of what Islam can be. An incredibly annoying thing here can be the deafening silence from some so-called liberals, whether atheists/humanists/non-believers or whatever being as silent as a door mouse over an article like this because they're petrified to be perceived to be offending/or worrying they'll be called racist or bigoted for making a comment around a feminist women and her battle with Islam (even with her directly being IN the faith itself). It's infuriating when and if that happens. I'm happy to see the Guardian and the Washington Post covering it. Others should to. Change to cultural norms will continue to move at a snails pace unless we attempt to use the media to normalise other views/takes on what Islam (or any religion for that matter) can be.
 

cromofo

Member
She's doing a noble thing.

Not surprised by the response, a lot of Muslims are still have a long way to come regarding not only liberal ideals, but basic rights.

Slowly but surely things will change, in the West at least. Don't have much confidence in Islam-ruled countries.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Incredibly brave woman. I hope she stays safe.

Housed in the side-building of a Protestant church, the mosque is open to Sunni, Shia, Alevi, Sufi and other interpretations of Islam but rejects visitors wearing the burqa or the niqab, which founder Ateş has describes as a “political statement”.
I like her.
 

azyless

Member
Is the gender segregation in mosques due to cultural norms or from the Koran?
I imagine it's like most things in Islam and religion in general, some people say the book says something and other people say it says something else.
And separating culture and religion is... complicated. Religion influences culture, and vice versa.
 

Bold One

Member
I was reading the twitter timeline of the guy who filmed the mosque attack by the white van man in the UK (and who told the sun to fuck off)

About a day before he was retweeting about this, how it's not Islam, men and women can't pray together it's haram, women can't be imams and therefor these people aren't Muslim's.

From the high of telling the sun to do one, to the low of reading that a moment later. Life comes at you fast.

That is super disappointing. Man, 3000 hate mails a day - I wonder how many like mails they receive at all.
 

Damerman

Member
I hope the german government will back her. Islam definitely needs this kind of public image. We need the religion to look more progressive. I hope she gets to be an imam.
 
Is the gender segregation in mosques due to cultural norms or from the Koran?

It's not in the Quran but we know it was practiced like that in the time of the Prophet ﷺ and we have clear hadith about this.
However, men and women used to pray in the same room in the time of the Prophet ﷺ, without walls or anything (unlike what we can find today). Just that men prayed in front and women behind because many women would feel uncomfortable prostrating that way in front of so many men.

I don't believe it's an issue at all, and all the muslim women i know have no issue with that, actually they would feel rather bad if it was otherwise and i can understand why. However, those people are just so stupid to get mad over this. It's not a big deal.
 
This happens in pockets, but not enough to become a regular thing. Amina Wadud, very well known Islamic professor, did the same thing and she led mixed prayers a while back.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/oct/18/amina-wadud-mecca-muslims

Wadud, who received death threats and worldwide condemnation following a similar service in New York three years ago, said: "There is nothing in the Qur'an or the hadith that forbids me from doing this. The prophet did it himself during his time, when he assigned a woman to lead a mixed prayer.

"This is not a movement, it is just a reality. It is part of the living tradition of Islam, Islam has not died. It is important British women take up the mantle and fulfil the possibility of prayer leadership."

The Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford, which organised the event, anticipated demonstrations and these fears secured a police presence.

Wadud, 56, a professor from Virginia Commonwealth University, stressed the importance of prayer. Seeing her flock were outnumbered by the media and sitting away from her, she told them: "I'm not going to bite you, I promise. It would make me feel better if you were closer to each other." They duly shuffled together.

Rawand Osman, 25, who travelled from Birmingham, said: "It's good for the psychology of Muslim men to start seeing women in these positions."​
 
I think the way forward for all religions, in terms of peace and peaceful coexistence, lies in liberalization. If most people in other religions in western countries were hard fundamentalists there would be friction there too. There's still obvious friction with fundamentalists sects.
 

Audioboxer

Member
I think the way forward for all religions, in terms of peace and peaceful coexistence, lies in liberalization. If most people in other religions in western countries were hard fundamentalists there would be friction there too. There's still obvious friction with fundamentalists sects.

It does, and the facts and figures show that. I've spent a bit of time today on GAF speaking about how criticism/debate and challenge over the course of many years is how societies get inched forward. Even in America, which has far more current fundamental Christians than the UK has seen improvements over years

Acceptance of homosexuality is rising across the broad spectrum of American Christianity, including among members of churches that strongly oppose homosexual relationships as sinful, according to an extensive Pew Research Center survey of U.S. religious beliefs and practices.

Amid a changing religious landscape that has seen a declining percentage of Americans who identify as Christian, a majority of U.S. Christians (54%) now say that homosexuality should be accepted, rather than discouraged, by society. While this is still considerably lower than the shares of religiously unaffiliated people (83%) and members of non-Christian faiths (76%) who say the same, the Christian figure has increased by 10 percentage points since we conducted a similar study in 2007. It reflects a growing acceptance of homosexuality among all Americans – from 50% to 62% – during the same period.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-groups-grow-more-accepting-of-homosexuality/

That didn't just happen because God spoke to people. It happened due to widespread effort from groups, activists and individuals challenging, debating and educating those who still want to be a part of a faith/religion, but have had their cultural outlooks influenced. Gay marriage being passed will in of itself shown that gay people just want to... find happiness and love like everyone else. Lightning bolts and a plague of frogs didn't hit America when gay marriage passed.

The UK is doing pretty well with views on homosexuality too

Fewer than a fifth of people in the UK think homosexuality is ”morally unacceptable", the sixth lowest of any country to take part in new research on social attitudes.

The Pew Research Center has published a report that charts people's opinions on social issues including homosexuality, abortion and extramarital affairs.

It shows 17% of Britons thought homosexuality was immoral, the sixth lowest of the 40 countries surveyed and a stark contrast to most intolerant country Ghana, where 98% of people thought this.

A total of 36% of British people polled said they felt homosexuality was morally acceptable while the remainder - 43% - said it was ”not a moral issue".

The five countries more tolerant than Britain were Canada, Czech Republic, France, Germany and Spain, where only 6% felt homosexuality was immoral.

In most of the 40 nations polled, half or more of the people said homosexuality was unacceptable. In seven countries, 90% or more said this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/16/britain-sixth-most-gay-friendly_n_5158844.html

A less impressive figure which has been spread around from the UK though is one from within the Islamic community on homosexuality

However, when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...se-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

Which is why if Islam as a religion, like Christianity and Catholicism, wants to operate in Western societies and become a larger share of the population it will be faced with the same scrutiny we aim at other religions. It's not a well-thought out defence to say because it's a minority religion in some countries that gives it protection from scrutiny that the majority religions face.

People like Seyran Ateş recognise that for Islam to truly integrate and succeed in many Western societies a bit of work is going to need to be done on cultural changes and shifts in mindsets/views so that polls do not appear as one-sided as some of them do. Heck, there is still on-going work to be done within the Christian and Catholic communities. America knows this especially with things the Republican party can get up to either to chase the Evangelical vote, or because members of that party directly sympathise with or believe in some of the regressive views the Evangelicals do (often around abortion/LGBT issues).

In the UK we've also just seen our Conservative party sign a deal to work with the DUP, a notoriously anti-homosexual right-wing party... The work is continually ongoing on all fronts for fairer more compassionate and accepting societies. Religion has just been a historically large cog in the minds of many to treat women and those in the LGBT groups differently/poorly/with contempt. We have to keep fighting wisely and humanely to influence change within communities and the minds of individuals. Debate, criticism and so on is the bedrock of Western societies. Trying to strive for good ideas to beat out bad ideas. Besides that, we do have some laws to deal with people who do not just think things but do things ~ If we're talking violence/rape/discrimination/terrorism/etc. We largely do not arrest/punish for thought-crime, as that is Orwellian, but thoughts and attitudes can breed contempt/hate/resentment/discrimination. Which is why we pay attention to polls and what people say and actively try and educate/influence and debate.
 

Condom

Member
People really have no life at all. Go do something worthwhile for the human race instead.


Damn @ 3,000 hate emails a day.

I hope they go after the people sending them.
They are mostly people from outside of the country so not much can be done.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Both, but cultural norms are perhaps the worst mind diseases that lead to generations of literally abiding by and not challenging whatever one's parents and community did and do/what may be lifted from texts. "We just do whatever has been done for hundreds of years because... reasons/tradition/culture/it's normalised/etc". It's a humungous task to inch cultural norms in different directions, but it can be done. Especially within free, secular societies with freedom of religion where we should have no issues debating and talking about serious life matters without fear of retaliation.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ue-berlin-seyran-ates-egypt-fatwa-burqa-niqab

The above is largely mixing cultural norms with politics and being dogmatic about it. It's happened for centuries so it's the way it's to be! It's even worse when you have governments who will write laws to enforce said dogma. An unfortunate problem in many Islam majority nations. Freedom of religion can't really exist when one religion gets political and takes control of the laws of the land.

One has to accept the texts are not getting rewritten, but like a lot of pressure and criticism placed on Christianity/Catholicism the goal is to lead cultural norms to change and the texts be taken for what they are ~ Words written thousands of years ago. It doesn't mean that your faith has to be taken away from you, but that you find ways to be a more compassionate person who doesn't want to oppress/suppress women. Where there is an "extra" sticking point with Islam over Christianity/Catholicism is a lot of reinforced belief that the Koran is the literal word of God and it's blasphemy to "rewrite" it, even if we're symbolically talking about rewriting it by cultural norms changing. That would be akin to not loyally following the beliefs of your maker if you ignore parts/do something against parts.

Which is why people who espouse views like the following need propped up and supported



There will be many thinking like Umar, but some are indeed scared to speak out. Umar, let alone Seyran Ateş, should be commended. Also when people/nations/governments and so forth issue fatwas/threats and appear to want to cause harm to people like her she needs global support to show other Islamic followers you do not need to be afraid to stand up for your liberal/compassionate views of what Islam can be. An incredibly annoying thing here can be the deafening silence from some so-called liberals, whether atheists/humanists/non-believers or whatever being as silent as a door mouse over an article like this because they're petrified to be perceived to be offending/or worrying they'll be called racist or bigoted for making a comment around a feminist women and her battle with Islam (even with her directly being IN the faith itself). It's infuriating when and if that happens. I'm happy to see the Guardian and the Washington Post covering it. Others should to. Change to cultural norms will continue to move at a snails pace unless we attempt to use the media to normalise other views/takes on what Islam (or any religion for that matter) can be.

So how do they get around women and men being forbidden to pray together, if they do so at the Haram in Mecca? I never understood the mental gymnastics people employ to explain that away.

"People when they are at the Ka'aba are in such a pious state, that they wouldn't have the temptations they would face at a normal mosque."

Yeah, that's a load of horse shit.
 

Audioboxer

Member
So how do they get around women and men being forbidden to pray together, if they do so at the Haram in Mecca? I never understood the mental gymnastics people employ to explain that away.

"People when they are at the Ka'aba are in such a pious state, that they wouldn't have the temptations they would face at a normal mosque."

Yeah, that's a load of horse shit.

Well, like most religions, people lift from text/passages and then interpret them how they see fit. The challenge faced for most (including people within the faith) is if some less flattering interpretations stick and then get passed on generation through generation by preachers/imams/family/friends and so on. There's also the case that at times the holy texts are very very very clear with what they state, and the best way around some of the passages is to chalk it up to that was how things were in those times. You can do a bit of brain gymnastics around "interpretations" to an extent, but other passages are just straight up black and white. It's best to be honest if they are, but state they are of times thousands of years ago. It's a bit eye-rolling when some try to claim "there's nothing bad in my book! everything is peace and love!". Ultimately, why do we have to behave like our ancestors? If we're talking about things like slavery, rape, torture, etc.

Basically, looking for strict logic and reason isn't always the best way to ask why contradictions exist. It's to accept within a religious following there is going to be pockets of this and pockets of that. Some believing one thing, others believing another. Hypocrisy/contradictions and so on are going to be rife. There will be exemptions made in some instances, and then hard lines drawn in others. One moment a women can do something, the next she better damn well know her place. Corrupt men abuse power to control as well, which is why many dislike it when a religion gets political control of a whole country. It's routinely men doing all of the abuse, torture, raping, killing, oppressing and so on. That is no coincidence. As an offshoot of that comment on men in power, this is also why many are happy to see women being given chances as leaders of countries. Not just because it's equality of equal opportunity, but historically we've had years and years and years of men in power, many times with horrendous consequences. Especially when it's around religious political corruption leading to totalitarian/authoritarian male leaders absolutely abusing/killing/oppressing their own countries. Try electing a women leader in certain countries, let alone saying it should be allowed, and see how you get on...

When I was a bit younger I used to just want to beat people over the head with all the contradictions in the bible/amongst Christians, but as I've gotten older I've honed in the approach more to deal with certain specifics rather than really massively caring if someone literally believes in a talking snake. There's lots of "high fantasy" in religious texts that is pretty harmless if people want to believe. Although, as a person of science I will challenge claims around the age of the earth and people denying evolution. So there are some things around supernatural claims that do have value in being challenged. Most of the stuff I really focus on now though is claims about social issues in humanity/morality and the treatment of other human beings. Often when religions step into those fields they can make a right mess of equality, humility and compassion. Followers themselves know this, as there often is millions of them standing alongside activists/commentators/public figures whether it's to support gay marriage or women's rights.

This is a great documentary to watch that crosses Christian reformers with those still refusing to accept the gay community ~ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0912583/ Especially as it has Christian parents that had to come around to accepting their gay sons and daughters (with some sadness in some of the parents in the documentary having faced suicide as a consequence of homosexual rejection).
 

cameron

Member
Douchebag: "If you don't like the rules then go build your own Mosque, Ates!"

*Ates builds new Mosque*

Douchebag: "Release the fatwa!"

WaPo said:
The debut of her mosque brought a round of fire on social media from critics. “#Mosque without #Islam. Those who know Ates know that she is in favor of an Islam that is not based on its sources,” tweeted the advocacy group Generation Islam.

Burhan Kesici, chairman of the Islamic Council for the Federal Republic of Germany, dismissed her house of worship as a fad.

“We’re observing this and are wondering . . . how what is happening there is supposed to be rooted in Islam at all,” he said.
Dude's jimmies are getting rustled over a "fad".

TheGuardian said:
A social media post circulated among Germany’s Turkish diaspora community showed a photograph of a foot hovering over three copies of the Qur’an scattered across the floor at the mosque, claiming that they had been placed there by “Ateş and her accomplices”. One visitor at the inaugural event told the Guardian that she saw the books being placed on the floor by a man purporting to be a journalist.

Some Turkish media have even accused the project of ties to the movement of Fethullah Gülen, subject to a crackdown in the country after the attempted coup of 16 July 2016.
Planting false evidence for mob justice. It would be nice if they just fucked off.


TheGuardian said:
A week later, the white-walled prayer room was noticeably emptier, with the seven-strong congregation almost matched by the number of security staff who guarded the exits and entrances with blue plastic covers over their boots.

Ateş, 54, said many of the previous week’s worshippers had decided to stay away because they feared incrimination against themselves or their families. Her own relatives in Turkey had asked her to drop the project because they worried about arrests.
Community pressure from family/friends is a more effective and less overt vice grip holding back progress.
 
So how do they get around women and men being forbidden to pray together, if they do so at the Haram in Mecca? I never understood the mental gymnastics people employ to explain that away.

"People when they are at the Ka'aba are in such a pious state, that they wouldn't have the temptations they would face at a normal mosque."

Yeah, that's a load of horse shit.

Believing in the supernatural and logic dont really go together, you only need faith
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Well, like most religions, people lift from text/passages and then interpret them how they see fit. The challenge faced for most (including people within the faith) is if some less flattering interpretations stick and then get passed on generation through generation by preachers/imams/family/friends and so on. There's also the case that at times the holy texts are very very very clear with what they state, and the best way around some of the passages is to chalk it up to that was how things were in those times. You can do a bit of brain gymnastics around "interpretations" to an extent, but other passages are just straight up black and white. It's best to be honest if they are, but state they are of times thousands of years ago. It's a bit eye-rolling when some try to claim "there's nothing bad in my book! everything is peace and love!". Ultimately, why do we have to behave like our ancestors? If we're talking about things like slavery, rape, torture, etc.

Basically, looking for strict logic and reason isn't always the best way to ask why contradictions exist. It's to accept within a religious following there is going to be pockets of this and pockets of that. Some believing one thing, others believing another. Hypocrisy/contradictions and so on are going to be rife. There will be exemptions made in some instances, and then hard lines drawn in others. One moment a women can do something, the next she better damn well know her place. Corrupt men abuse power to control as well, which is why many dislike it when a religion gets political control of a whole country. It's routinely men doing all of the abuse, torture, raping, killing, oppressing and so on. That is no coincidence. As an offshoot of that comment on men in power, this is also why many are happy to see women being given chances as leaders of countries. Not just because it's equality of equal opportunity, but historically we've had years and years and years of men in power, many times with horrendous consequences. Especially when it's around religious political corruption leading to totalitarian/authoritarian male leaders absolutely abusing/killing/oppressing their own countries. Try electing a women leader in certain countries, let alone saying it should be allowed, and see how you get on...

When I was a bit younger I used to just want to beat people over the head with all the contradictions in the bible/amongst Christians, but as I've gotten older I've honed in the approach more to deal with certain specifics rather than really massively caring if someone literally believes in a talking snake. There's lots of "high fantasy" in religious texts that is pretty harmless if people want to believe. Although, as a person of science I will challenge claims around the age of the earth and people denying evolution. So there are some things around supernatural claims that do have value in being challenged. Most of the stuff I really focus on now though is claims about social issues in humanity/morality and the treatment of other human beings. Often when religions step into those fields they can make a right mess of equality, humility and compassion. Followers themselves know this, as there often is millions of them standing alongside activists/commentators/public figures whether it's to support gay marriage or women's rights.

This is a great documentary to watch that crosses Christian reformers with those still refusing to accept the gay community ~ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0912583/ Especially as it has Christian parents that had to come around to accepting their gay sons and daughters (with some sadness in some of the parents in the documentary having faced suicide as a consequence of homosexual rejection).

Thanks for taking the time to post such a great reply. Yeah, I've got to learn to do a better job at not being such an ass to people, and to try to ask and explain things in a manner that won't get them to put up walls and get defensive.
 

Occam

Member
"Seyran Ateş's Ibn Rushd-Goethe mosque allows men and women to pray together and rejects burqa and niqab"

"Seyran Ateş, a Turkish-born lawyer and women's rights campaigner, who does not wear a hijab."

Great. It's time for someone to start reforming Islam and introduce basic human rights, such as equal rights for men and women.
 
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