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[Kisaya]

Islam desperately is in need of more inclusive spaces for women and those who are marginalized. Too many mosques have awful prayer rooms for women and children, and the segregation is very unwelcoming. I'm extremely proud of this woman's efforts and I condemn the radicals who are making her and her community feel unsafe.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

"Seyran Ateş's Ibn Rushd-Goethe mosque allows men and women to pray together and rejects burqa and niqab"

"Seyran Ateş, a Turkish-born lawyer and women's rights campaigner, who does not wear a hijab."

Great. It's time for someone to start reforming Islam and introduce basic human rights, such as equal rights for men and women.

They forbid women with burqa and niqab to enter the mosque. Considering that burqa and niqab are not related to the islamic religion is the mainstream position.
I don't understand how banning a certain category of women to enter in the house of God is actually promoting human's rights or women's rights but ok.

 

[Audioboxer]

Thanks for taking the time to post such a great reply. Yeah, I've got to learn to do a better job at not being such an ass to people, and to try to ask and explain things in a manner that won't get them to put up walls and get defensive.

Don't worry, my reply wasn't aimed at how you were addressing anything. More so just to expect a minefield of contradictions whenever you wade into the worlds of any religious following. Humanity is rarely 1:1 on anything, even a poll that asks would you like one million £/$ with no strings attached would somehow end up 99% yes, 1% no....lol. We just have to strive for a leaning towards liberal and equality based principles, so those who will remain truly dogmatic all their days continue to be marginalised. Millions continue to show you can be both a religious person and a decent, open-minded and accepting individual. This topic is about a woman who obviously wants to believe in and practice the Islamic faith but do so with tolerance, acceptance and a less dogmatic view of women. What to take note of here isn't just how others may disagree with her, but how it translates to death threats and a fatwa. It's currently that controversial in the minds of some a woman doing what she is doing is deserving of a death sentence. THAT is a huge problem, and as I said transcends some conservative minds simply saying "I disagree, but each to their own she can do what she wants".

Direct agreement of those attacking her, or sympathy, is the kind of cultural changes that need to be worked on. As I said if you disagree with her but can at least be liberal enough to let her do what she wants, okay, that isn't as bad. If you're sitting thinking this woman shouldn't be allowed to do this and/or agreeing she deserves to face consequences, you're exactly the kind of voice that needs to be debated/criticised.

 

[Shredderi]

That's right fuck your fatwa. Shove it up your ass.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Massive waste of time. Imagine the authorities going after every hateful YouTube comment.

Um, what? Unlike most youtube comments, death threats sent by radical Islamists usually carry a fuckton of weight. See Salman Rushdie, who wasn't killed but received serious death threats and death penalty fatwas from the ayatollah himself, and Theo van Gogh, who was murdered... (Note, Van Gogh didn't take the death threats seriously...)

 

[Kettch]

As much as I dislike religion, they aren't going away any time soon. So modernizing and bringing them up to speed on human rights is a very important thing to do.

Good luck to her.

 

[Audioboxer]

Um, what? Unlike most youtube comments, death threats sent by radical Islamists usually carry a fuckton of weight. See Salman Rushdie, who wasn't killed but received serious death threats and death penalty fatwas from the ayatollah himself, and Theo van Gogh, who was murdered... (Note, Van Gogh didn't take the death threats seriously...)

Van Gogh was murdered by Mohammed Bouyeri while cycling to work on 2 November 2004 at about 9 o'clock in the morning, in front of the Amsterdam East borough office (stadsdeelkantoor), on the corner of the Linnaeusstraat and Tweede Oosterparkstraat (52°21′32.22″N 4°55′34.74″E).[8] The killer shot Van Gogh eight times with an HS2000 handgun. Bouyeri was also on a bicycle and fired several bullets, hitting Van Gogh and two bystanders. Wounded, Van Gogh ran to the other side of the road and fell to the ground on the cycle lane. According to eyewitnesses, Van Gogh's last words were "Don't do it, don't do it" or "Have mercy, have mercy, don't do it, don't do it".[9] Bouyeri walked up to Van Gogh, who was on the ground, and calmly shot him several more times at close range.[10][11]

Bouyeri cut Van Gogh's throat with a large knife and tried to decapitate him, after which he stabbed the knife deep into Van Gogh's chest, reaching his spinal cord. He attached a note to the body with a smaller knife. Van Gogh died on the spot.[12] The two knives were left implanted. The note was addressed to and contained a death threat to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who went into hiding. It also threatened Western countries and Jews, and referred to ideologies of the Egyptian organization Takfir wal-Hijra.[13][14]

The killer, Mohammed Bouyeri, a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan citizen, was apprehended by police after a chase, during which he was shot in the leg. Authorities have alleged that Bouyeri has terrorist ties with the Dutch Islamist Hofstad Network. He was charged with the attempted murder of several police officers and bystanders, illegal possession of a firearm, and conspiring to murder others, including Hirsi Ali. He was convicted at trial on 26 July 2005 and sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole.[15]

On 2 November 2004, van Gogh was assassinated in public by Mohammed Bouyeri, a Dutch-Moroccan Muslim with a Dutch passport. A letter,[10] stabbed through and affixed to the body by a dagger, linked the murder to Van Gogh's film and his views regarding Islam. It was addressed to Ayaan Hirsi Ali and called for a jihad against kafir (Kafir is a disbeliever or infidel), against America, Europe, the Netherlands, and Hirsi Ali herself. Following the murder of Van Gogh, tens of thousands gathered in the center of Amsterdam to mourn Van Gogh's death. Besides Bouyeri, eleven other Muslim men were arrested and charged with conspiracy to assassinate Hirsi Ali.[11]

Following the broadcast, both van Gogh and Hirsi Ali received death threats. Van Gogh did not take the threats seriously and refused any protection. According to Hirsi Ali, he said, "Nobody kills the village idiot", a term he frequently used about himself.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)

Pretty gruesome, but yes, a reminder of why Seyran Ateş, especially with Egypt getting involved, will have to remain vigilant.

edit: I found this about the mosque as well

Open to both Sunni and Shiite worshippers, as well as members of the LGBTQ community, the mosque shares its premises with a protestant church.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eath-threats-egypt-turkey-islam-a7808106.html

 

[Blueingreen]

They forbid women with burqa and niqab to enter the mosque. Considering that burqa and niqab are not related to the islamic religion is the mainstream position.
I don't understand how banning a certain category of women to enter in the house of God is actually promoting human's rights or women's rights but ok.

Why is it necessary to cover your self in the house of god?

 

[cameron]

They forbid women with burqa and niqab to enter the mosque. Considering that burqa and niqab are not related to the islamic religion is the mainstream position.
I don't understand how banning a certain category of women to enter in the house of God is actually promoting human's rights or women's rights but ok.

It's not in the Quran but we know it was practiced like that in the time of the Prophet ﷺ and we have clear hadith about this.
However, men and women used to pray in the same room in the time of the Prophet ﷺ, without walls or anything (unlike what we can find today). Just that men prayed in front and women behind because many women would feel uncomfortable prostrating that way in front of so many men.

I don't believe it's an issue at all, and all the muslim women i know have no issue with that, actually they would feel rather bad if it was otherwise and i can understand why. However, those people are just so stupid to get mad over this. It's not a big deal.

What's not "an issue at all"? Gender segregation in Mosques? Because of your personal anecdotes? Ok.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Why is it necessary to cover your self in the house of god?

Anybody should be able to enter. Niqabi, hijabi and without hijab. The House of God is for everybody.
There is nothing "progressist" about discriminating one group of women.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

What's not "an issue at all"? Gender segregation in Mosques? Because of your personal anecdotes? Ok.

I think it's better that way. However it don't bother me that a mosque does otherwise.

So for me, it's not an issue and i don't think it's an issue also for the majority women in our community. Even the feminist muslims (like Asma Lamrabet) usually don't ask for that.
A real issue is the lack of proper space for women in many of our mosques. It's shameful. They should where we are, and not in some little room elsewhere.

 

[Heshinsi]

Anybody should be able to enter. Niqabi, hijabi and without hijab. The House of God is for everybody.
There is nothing "progressist" about discriminating one group of women.

Those wearing niqabs and burkhas are highly unlikely to be fine with gender mixing anyways, so it is a moot point.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Those wearing niqabs and burkhas are highly unlikely to be fine with gender mixing anyways, so it is a moot point.

So it's useless to ban them, right ?

 

[MaximL]

What ever happened to letting god doing the judging?

I hope this Mosque manages to stay open. Being in a place as progressive as Berlin I'm sure it will get the support it needs.

 

[Messofanego]

I'll ask my mosque if we can do mixed gender prayers. If it happens, it could convince more women to come to Friday prayers, because the women room for prayer is quite small so that's why not many women come.

The whole excuse that men would be distracted is horribly sexist by men towards men, assuming men are sex-crazed maniacs when it comes to interacting with women. A mosque is a house of worship, not for ogling at women. Same as at Kaabah or other mosques where mixed gender congregations happen.

 

[Jumeira]

Hope the local community come out to support the mosque.

 

[mugwhump]

I was reading the twitter timeline of the guy who filmed the mosque attack by the white van man in the UK (and who told the sun to fuck off)

About a day before he was retweeting about this, how it's not Islam, men and women can't pray together it's haram, women can't be imams and therefor these people aren't Muslim's.

From the high of telling the sun to do one, to the low of reading that a moment later. Life comes at you fast.

Well that's disappointing.

 

[MKIL65]

”The pushback I am getting makes me feel that I am doing the right thing," said Seyran Ateş, a Turkish-born lawyer and women's rights campaigner, who does not wear a hijab.

Great to see. Most turkish women I've come across in my life have all been hardworking, strong individuals. My mother, my cousin and tons of others.

Too bad I can't say the same thing for the men... Otherwise, this would have happened a long time ago. But better late than never!

 

[guggnichso]

Anybody should be able to enter. Niqabi, hijabi and without hijab. The House of God is for everybody.
There is nothing "progressist" about discriminating one group of women.

So would I be ok entering one wearing shoes?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

So would I be ok entering one wearing shoes?

That clever.
And funny.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Hopefully she and her followers stay safe. Islam desperately needs progressive voices like this, but there will undoubtedly be people pushing back against it.