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[GulfCoastZilla]

Full interview
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/shawn...thats-a-threat-to-the-ecosystem-going-forward

"[In the past] we spent a lot more time looking at games and not asking 'what's your monetisation scheme', or 'what's your recurrent revenue plan', or 'what's your subscription formula'? We asked the simple question: is it fun? Are we having a good time? If you said yes to those questions, you'd usually get a green light. You didn't worry so much about the end piece, for better or for worse. Of course back then you didn't make a game for millions [of] dollars. So your risk tolerance was fairly

When asked about what strategy to adopt for the few AA studios that still exist, and where these should find their niche between the graphic fidelity of AAAs and the risky innovative approach of indies, Layden said AA has a natural niche, which is to bring "the new thing" as opposed to, for example, "a dollar store version of God of War."

"Bring something that you sort of challenge yourself to see – the gaming media, this medium, is so flexible, it can do so many different things," he continued. "So I think your strengths in AA are going to be [that] your time to market should be faster. You know, to get 1,500 developers to do the next [GTA], that's not the place you need to go for your AA. If you're a developer, you've got to be able to say, 'I can get something up and running in two to three and a half years'."

My thoughts, in todays subscription world, this starts and stops with wanting to make your service stand out, I feel like you can do that with a plentiful supply of indies and AA games. So there is definitely a spot for them, but you can’t bet your livelihood on a AA game taking off and being successful.

Player spending and playing habits have changed so much from the times where AA was plentiful.

 

[nial]

How so? Every major publisher still produces AA games. And if we're talking about big sales numbers, no shit, they never did good compared to big budget projects outside of Nintendo.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Sony: "We're all trying to find the guy who did this!"

(I'm not blaming Layden for this, just to be clear)

 

[killatopak]

I dunno the current situation but I thought AA was making a comeback in the form of large indie developers like Ninja Theory, Supermassive, Larian, and Obsidian for example.

The problem today is those AA indie devs get acquisitioned by large publishers like Sony and Microsoft. That was the case for firesprite, firewalk and such.

 

[Calico345]

I've been missing the AA/budgetware/middleware space since forever. It is vital to a healthy video game market that respects consumers. It is gone, and the vapid corpo shalloware of today is left in its wake. AA games carried hard between AAA titles, of which there were plenty when dev cycles were still fast. The AA space could still fit and work today -and solidly at that- between the indie scene and the AAA fare.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Certain game genres disappear for years, even a decades, then all of a sudden take off again.

 

[MagusMajul]

you mean games that don't try to rip off their customers are somehow a threat to the ones that do?

 

[Agent X]

That's a very good article. Here's another good quote from that article:

When asked about what strategy to adopt for the few AA studios that still exist, and where these should find their niche between the graphic fidelity of AAAs and the risky innovative approach of indies, Layden said AA has a natural niche, which is to bring "the new thing" as opposed to, for example, "a dollar store version of God of War."

I believe there's still room in the middle tier for innovative games to succeed. We just need for both developers and gamers to keep their expectations grounded in reality.

 

[DGrayson]

I agree that we are sorely lacking these mid tier games. But on a related point what exactly is the definition of mid tier/AA

 

[Cakeboxer]

he is also damn right with "risk tolerance drops". They all play it super safe (and DEI is part of this. At least they think they have to include it).

 

[GulfCoastZilla]

Certain game genres disappear for years, even a decades, then all of a sudden take off again.

I would classify Astro Bot as AA
If you agree with me we can say AA roared back.

The problem remains what do people think AA is. To me it’s games that aren’t huge cinematic movie like experiences. Games with much smaller budget but do some heavy lifting. I feel like Astro Bot fits that description well and more than likely will end up this years GOTY

 

[Cakeboxer]

I agree that we are sorely lacking these mid tier games. But on a related point what exactly is the definition of mid tier.

Like most stuff in the gaming industry it's a matter of opinion.

 

[Big Baller]

This year is packed with AA releases.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Bullshit.

There's a fallacious rationale that applies to many bad trends that their preachers try to sell them as "inevitable" "it's the future" while they distance themselves from them.

Corporate drones are the culprits for the AAAA madness, not "the market" or anyone else.

We have plenty of successful games below 30M budget. The problem, as usual, is that you need talented devs instead of copypasta makers to make those fly.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

I'm not following here at all. We've had quite a lot of AA releases. In fact, it feels like we have more than ever. Space Marine 2 being a great example of this recently. Frostpunk 2 and Helldivers 2 are other examples off the top of my head that clearly seem to fit in that category.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Hard to tell these days whats indie or AA. A lot of "indies' have a ton of(sometimes undisclosed) backing, publishing, resources, while a lot of AA lack all that. Everyone is making safe games these days. Shame.

 

[OrangeSun77]

Bullshit.

There's a fallacious rationale that applies to many bad trends that their preachers try to sell them as "inevitable" "it's the future" while they distance themselves from them.

Corporate drones are the culprits for the AAAA madness, not "the market" or anyone else.

We have plenty of successful games below 30M budget. The problem, as usual, is that you need talented devs instead of copypasta makers to make those fly.

You know more about the market and the industry than a former Sony CEO? You must be kidding.

 

[DonF]

We NEED AA games, not every game needs to be a cinematic masterpiece. Gameplay is king, art style is next, presentation must be clean, no need for all the extra whistles. Cant believe this guy used to run PS. What is his perspective? From the stakeholders or the buyers?

 

[Physiognomonics]

I smell BS. This is almost gaslighting and means he realized AA is still a very alive, profitable and actually a great strategy. The whole Nintendo Strategy is based on AA.

He is just spinning this because he is still working for Sony, that unexplicably decided to do mainly AAA + GAAS (failing) products. But for him lying and spinning reality is easy, and we know why.

 

[nial]

You know more about the market and the industry than a former Sony CEO? You must be kidding.

Sony Interactive Entertainment America CEO, you mean, different to the actual main company. Honestly, these regional branch people always come across with weird takes later on.

 

[near]

I'm not following here at all. We've had quite a lot of AA releases. In fact, it feels like we have more than ever. Space Marine 2 being a great example of this recently. Frostpunk 2 and Helldivers 2 are other examples off the top of my head that clearly seem to fit in that category.

AA games are definitely on the decline and almost non-existent. I think the confusion stems from how it has been defined in the past and where we’re at today. Since the cost of game development has risen it has become harder to identify what a mid-tier game is. Budget and scope are defining factors, 1000+ staff on a project would be absurd in the past for a AA scope game, and would not be defined as such. Comparatively speaking today, games like Helldivers 2 and Space Marine 2 could be considered AA. But there budgets and staff count at least based on how it was understood in the past would hard disagree. AA today would be Slitterhead or Wanted: Dead which are extremely rare offerings. I wouldn't even consider Astro Bot as mid-tier, but it is definitely at the upper echelon of AA. The line between AA and AAA has become blurred, due to rising costs of what a mid-tier scope game was in the past. Indies are essentially filling the AA void.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

You know more about the market and the industry than a former Sony CEO? You must be kidding.

Nowhere in my post you will find that claim. "AA gaming is dead" is factually incorrect, no matter who says that.

What he says about how things were in the past is true. But things don't change because of the invisible forces of the market. It's corporate people who are pushing in the wrong direction and they need to correct course before a big crash happens.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

AA will continue to struggle if they will continue to insist on pricing in line with AAA.

 

[eerik9000]

Shawn "fewer but bigger games" Layden

 

[Kacho]

AA will continue to struggle if they will continue to insist on pricing in line with AAA.

Buy Slitterhead for the low price of $69.99

 

[Mister Wolf]

Falcom have existed for over 40 years making AA games, pricing them at full price.

 

[Topher]

It isn't "gone", but we could definitely use more AA games, particularly from Sony. They used to be great at those.

 

[near]

Buy Slitterhead for the low price of $69.99

It's $49.99.

 

[Kacho]

It's $49.99.

I was joking

 

[64bitmodels]

Shawn "fewer but bigger games" Layden

hes probably regretting saying that considering the current state of the industry and dev times

 

[Tajaz2426]

Maybe this Shaun cat should have realized they are all part of the problem, pushing games at 70 bones a pop early access to play the game on time, subscriptions, monetization.

At some point folks were going to cut back on other games, because the big releases take most of people’s money.

People spend on The Fortnite, Madden, Soccer, Baseball, every Ubisoft game, etc and have to make decisions to stay with those games or spend on smaller titles.

I’m 43 and already retired, my wife has a great job running a whole district of post offices in the thousands and I still have to freaking pay attention to what I spend because of the economy and everything else rising with insurances, medical, housing, groceries, energy, etc. gaming is last on the list to use my money for.

At some point when people run out of room on their credit cards and life becomes real, they will make choices.

 

[adamsapple]

the push for the A-est of A's has caused game budgets and development times to balloon beyond reasonable.

The PS3 gen had 4 new Naughty Dog games come out, the PS4 gen reduced it to 2 (and a standalone DLC) and not a single game from them so far and it's year 4.

Similarly, 4 Gears games on the X360 gen, 2 on the XBO gen and not a single one this gen with only a teaser for something that looks like it's gonna be for the next gen.

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

Well Shawn, maybe it's because people "dont like something? They dont buy it!" You should be all too familiar with that saying.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Indies and AA games are the only thing keeping the industry alive. Thanks Steam!!!

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

AA's are just charging full price. They're not gone. The AA games at a AA price are the $40ish VR games.

 

[DeepEnigma]

AA gaming exists in the Indie scene. In which I would argue that AA is flourishing more then ever now due to that.

 

[Saber]

I agree that we are sorely lacking these mid tier games. But on a related point what exactly is the definition of mid tier/AA

I would say anything closer to WWZ game, which doesn't feel like the most invested thing and neither a big deal but for the amount of players it keeps going.

 

[tkscz]

I agree that we are sorely lacking these mid tier games. But on a related point what exactly is the definition of mid tier/AA

It's hard to say. Normally I'd assume mid-tier would cost between $500,000 to $5,000,000 and would only cost $30 - $40 at launch. But AAA's low end lately has been at least $50 million and steadily rising. AA could be anything from $10 million to $49 million at this point.

Even then I'd separate it from indie developers as their teams are much smaller so their cost tends to be significantly lower but they can produce amazing quality games on $200,000 budgets.

 

[GymWolf]

This year we had space marine 2, sh2, helldivers 2, metaphor rephantasio, stellar blade and wukong that are all AA when it comes to budget and studio size, the fact that some of them can look\play better than some AAA doesn't make them AAA, even if sony helped with something.

Dude should laydown the crack pipe.

 

[fart town usa]

AA gaming is where all the gems are at. People who play a variety of games know this.

The issue is that these games aren't allowed to be praised for being fun and competent games, they are scrutinized to death by reviewers and if they are praised, all kinds of excuses are made as to why their production shortcomings are OK. Too many people have forgot that videogames are supposed to be fun to play and production values aren't always a reliable benchmark for that.

 

[midnightAI]

And this is why no-one should listen to Shawn Layden

If anything AA games have made a come back in the past few years,very successful ones at that.

 

[midnightAI]

the push for the A-est of A's has caused game budgets and development times to balloon beyond reasonable.

The PS3 gen had 4 new Naughty Dog games come out, the PS4 gen reduced it to 2 (and a standalone DLC) and not a single game from them so far and it's year 4.

Similarly, 4 Gears games on the X360 gen, 2 on the XBO gen and not a single one this gen with only a teaser for something that looks like it's gonna be for the next gen.

Naughty dog games aren't AA though, neither are the Gears games, so if anything AAA games are the ones suffering not AA (unless I read your post wrong)

 

[VanCityGamer]

And this is why no-one should listen to Shawn Layden

If anything AA games have made a come back in the past few years,very successful ones at that.

I feel like this year has been loaded with AA flops on PS5 and Series X.

 

[midnightAI]

I feel like this year has been loaded with AA flops on PS5 and Series X.

Which AA specifically? We have had some AAA flops, AA seems to have done well in Helldivers 2, Astro Bot (you could maybe argue this is AAA), Stellar Blade, Rise of Ronin etc on the PS5 side at least

 

[Rocinante618]

Unfortunately AA games recently have been quite disappointing:

• Many have technical issues which is probably due a small team which can't focus on everything apart from getting it out in a small budget compared to AAA. Indies get a pass (though most of time they are very well optimized) as it's either a single developer or a few. They also have unique mechanics and all the popular indies indeed have a soul.
• They promise a lot, their visions are grand but often the final product doesn't realize the dream most likely due to a smaller budget or technical expertise compared to AAA teams with huge budgets.
• Most of the times they are quite pricey and given you're paying for a subpar, mostly copied concepts with technical issues, customers just spend a bit more for a more complete AAA experience or get multiple indies.

A few examples:

Banished (kinda flopped), Greedfall 2 (although early access, it's a shitshow), Enotria at 49.99 (lmao Elden Ring is $10 more), most Embracer stuff (they release so many that a few are successful)....

AA which did good: Frostpunk 2, V Rising, Satisfactory, Still Wakes the Deep, Robocop.

 

[fart town usa]

Unfortunately AA games recently have been quite disappointing:

• Many have technical issues which is probably due a small team which can't focus on everything apart from getting it out in a small budget compared to AAA. Indies get a pass (though most of time they are very well optimized) as it's either a single developer or a few. They also have unique mechanics and all the popular indies indeed have a soul.
• They promise a lot, their visions are grand but often the final product doesn't realize the dream most likely due to a smaller budget or technical expertise compared to AAA teams with huge budgets.
• Most of the times they are quite pricey and given you're paying for a subpar, mostly copied concepts with technical issues, customers just spend a bit more for a more complete AAA experience or get multiple indies.

A few examples:

Banished (kinda flopped), Greedfall 2 (although early access, it's a shitshow), Enotria at 49.99 (lmao Elden Ring is $10 more), most Embracer stuff (they release so many that a few are successful)....

AA which did good: Frostpunk 2, V Rising, Satisfactory, Still Wakes the Deep, Robocop.

The two AA games that stick out to me this year are Outcast: A New Beginning and AITD.

Both had/have technical issues, thankfully I haven't experienced the worst ones and most were patched out.

Mostly just using this as an excuse to mention those two games. I love both games but Outcast in particular was such a joy to play. That game needs more love from gamers.

 

[chakadave]

I love using vague terms to justify why things aren’t working

AA means nothing.

The industry has more small games that are successful now than ever in history.

 

[yogaflame]

Wow look who is talking, this guy is one of the contributor to the decay of gaming as he is also an advocate of twisted agendas to gaming. Good thing he is not with Sony anymore. Going back, developers especially in the west are more focus on forcing or pushing for twisted gender ideology and allow there companies be influence by the poison SBI instead of focusing on quality and making the game fun. Just like what is killing the movie and tv industry, gaming industry is being killed by twisted agendas.

 

[GoldenEye98]

I think when people talking about AA games like this they basically mean mid-budget games that still utilize close-to-current graphics expectations... like how it kinda used to be with AA games...

I think that is possible but it probably requires a reduction in expectations around the scope of the game content. ie linear over open world. no-multiplayer. shorter game length, reduction in side quests/items

I feel like the recent Robocop game was sort of this maybe. A mid budget game that used UE5.

Robocop: Rogue City's surprising success proves there's still room in the business for mid-tier games with good licenses

Publisher Nacon said the new Robocop shooter is its "best ever launch."

www.pcgamer.com

 

[Tommi84]

you mean games that don't try to rip off their customers are somehow a threat to the ones that do?

He mentioned that the threat isnthe fact that AA games are gone, because you can only survive if you do AAA games now. Please read the acrticle again