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[tenchir]

I'm a Link player myself(both young and old). I guess I always choose characters that don't excel at anything in fighters like Ryu from Street Fighter II/III/etc..., Haomaru in SS, Terry Bogard in KoF series, etc.......

 

[arter_2]

i usually play as falco his jump kicks run u all over the level.

 

[RobotChant]

There's a lot of timing and positioning involved, and unless you play multi-player with others heavily, it's hard to really appreciate the game. Having a percentage rating instead of a life bar makes the game so much more multi-dimensional. With a life bar once it gets to 0 you're done, but with the rating, you're not automatically dead. You can continue to play and coming back and winning is always possible.

 

[dark10x]

randomness is removed because it forces the player to rely solely on their skill. They can't just get lucky and win. Imagine a tourney finals best out of 3 where a weaker player beats the most skillful player solely because they happened to have the right items sitting next to them. There would be outrage.

The problem is, when you remove ALL random aspects and place such harsh restrictions on the gameplay (which I see ALL too often) the game simply loses any entertainment value it previously had.

 

[slayn]

if people find items fun and their friends agree, I don't comdemn item use. After 100 hours of gameplay, my friends and I came to the conclusion that they were merely an irritation that resulted in lucky wins and disrupted heated battles.

randomness is the very reason we gave up on MK: DD only like a month after its release. The game is hilarious when you're new to it, but merely irritating when you outrace everyone only to get a spiny shell up the ass over a jump 3 seconds before the end.

for tourneys, however, I think its hard to argue that having items on is more fair for a tourney environment meant to measure skill rather than (solely) have fun.

I know a guy that goes to every smash brothers tourney he can. And either him or his friend hosted a relatively big one at my school UIUC, brining people from illinois and surrounding states. And he is the one I got those very standard tourney rules from. No items. Ever.

 

[Azih]

Button mashing in Smash Brothers is about as effective as button mashing in a platformer.

 

[DDayton]

Very rarely do random items result in someone winning by "luck".

Heck, the hammer can be one of the -worst- items to pick up. Guys with stars can be avoided... in general, I think it shows MORE skill to properly play when random items appear. The items DO give a slight edge to more inexperienced players (which is why it seems that "pros" hate them so much... a newbie might beat them!), but generally a good player will still mop the floor with a lousy one, even if the lousy guy keeps grabbing hammers.

 

[Kandinsky]

EDIT: just checked Melee. 271 hours playtime.

Checked mine. 796 hours

 

[worldrunover]

Yeah I play hundred of matches, always with items, and I rarely lose because of items. I rarely lose period, but thats another story. The better players will use the items better and conversly avoid items better.

The one thing I think is far too random is sudden death. I like it, but it's too random.

 

[Azih]

Well if you put items to very high sometimes one person just gets screwed, especially in a one on one situation.

There's been plenty of times when I play with friends that a person is off the side and struggling to make a comeback but the guy sitting safely on the stage keeps on throwing pokeballs at the edge.

 

[tenchir]

If you lose a lot because of random items, you suck.

 

[Mr. Lemming]

Well if you put items to very high sometimes one person just gets screwed, especially in a one on one situation.

There's been plenty of times when I play with friends that a person is off the side and struggling to make a comeback but the guy sitting safely on the stage keeps on throwing pokeballs at the edge.

Obviously the solution for that is to turn the item frequency down. Not off, just down.

 

[DDayton]

I wonder if any of these misguided souls play SSBM in the Health mode with all items turned off...

(Health Mode being whatever mode it is where you lose X health units and you die, like a "standard" fighter)

 

[NWO]

I just want an online version

And you'll get that online version as it will be a launch title for the Revolution.....

 

[Bigfoot]

if randomness adds depth, then smash brothers with everything turned on must have far more depth than Virtua Fighter, and MK: DD is the most depthful racer to date.


randomness is removed because it forces the player to rely solely on their skill. They can't just get lucky and win. Imagine a tourney finals best out of 3 where a weaker player beats the most skillful player solely because they happened to have the right items sitting next to them. There would be outrage.

imagine any other fighter where two opponents are fighting and for one of the rounds when both are near dead one of the players has a heart drop on them at a critical moment and they are put back at full life. If such options existed in other games, they too would be banned from all tourneys.

I agree to this for the most part, but I think it depends on the match setup. If the fight is set to go on for a long time (say 20+ minutes), then the randomness should even out for all players. Sure... a weaker player could get an extra kill or two, but a skilled player should be able to make up for this if the match goes on long enough.

 

[sc0la]

I wonder if any of these misguided souls play SSBM in the Health mode with all items turned off...

(Health Mode being whatever mode it is where you lose X health units and you die, like a "standard" fighter)

Misguided? Health mode is the shit. After a player looses all their health the game goes slow mo and allows you to beat the shit out of their corpse for comedy value. I actually wished they had fleshed out health mode a little more, having a best of set up, a zoom cam and longer slow mo times.

Nothing like throwing some one of the edge and dunking their lifeless body into a crevice with a tap Down +A.

Mind you I don't play the mode excessively but it is a nice change of pace

edit:

Checked mine. 796 hours

impresive. Is this play time, total time? what. We played SSB original so much more than melee.

 

[Kandinsky]

impresive. Is this play time, total time? what. We played SSB original so much more than melee.

Play time baby!!

 

[N Coward Parody]

Best launch(ish) game ever created.

May end up being the best game this generation.

Bless ye Smash.




*Noel Coward Parody

 

[slayn]

for every non useless item one can devise a situation where the outcome of a match between two equally skilled players is completely determined by where the items land... and thats what one would want to avoid in a tourney or if you wanted a "fair match"

ideally, if two people play 1000 matches with items turned on the more skillful player would, on average, win more but that is only guaranteed if you play a LOT of matches. When the outcome of a tourney is decided by something like best out of 3, the rule of averages (or whatever the rule is called) no longer applies.

so with items off, if player x is better than player y such that they have a 70% probabiliy of beating them, then the probability of player y winning 2/3 is fairly low.

with items you add noise to the calculation. Noise screws with probability so as to give the weaker player a huge advantage if the amount of matches is kept to a small number, and no clear "better player" can easily be determined.

lessening the item frequency merely lessens the amount of noise but doesn't not eliminate it.

 

[miyuru]

Totally, SSBM is one of the best games ever. I still play everyday to practice. Hell, I'm actually have a small SSBM party at my house tonight. BTW any Edmonton GA'ers, PM me and we'll get something going!

So who do you guys use? I play with Ganondorf, can't remember when I started using him. Actually I've been using him so much now that I'm used to meteor smashing opponents who are just standing there! Hahaha, good times

And a question - does anyone consistently catch items and power block or whatever (block the instant you get hit)?

 

[tenchir]

Random is Random, sometime it lands on their sides, sometimes it lands on your side. If you are a good player, you can avoid the majority of the damages from items. It's not like you are completely screwed if your opponent manage to grab an item first, you just have to play it more strategically, it forces you to play better. Taking out items takes away the fun IMHO.

I can catch items that are thrown at me about 70 percent of the times, which I used against my opponents, that makes me a better player if he can't do the same.

 

[miyuru]

for every non useless item one can devise a situation where the outcome of a match between two equally skilled players is completely determined by where the items land... and thats what one would want to avoid in a tourney or if you wanted a "fair match"

ideally, if two people play 1000 matches with items turned on the more skillful player would, on average, win more but that is only guaranteed if you play a LOT of matches. When the outcome of a tourney is decided by something like best out of 3, the rule of averages (or whatever the rule is called) no longer applies.

so with items off, if player x is better than player y such that they have a 70% probabiliy of beating them, then the probability of player y winning 2/3 is fairly low.

with items you add noise to the calculation. Noise screws with probability so as to give the weaker player a huge advantage if the amount of matches is kept to a small number, and no clear "better player" can easily be determined.

lessening the item frequency merely lessens the amount of noise but doesn't not eliminate it.

You're losing sight of what you're arguing here. To set it straight, you want to battle in smash to see who's solely better with their character. However, a lot of other people are against such "rules" because they want to play Smash Bros., as it was meant to be played per se.

I see what you're saying, and either way is fair. Hey as long as it's fun, I couldn't care less. Just don't lose sight of the fact that a hammer doesn't mean an instant win for the worse player, etc.

Hell, I take people on when they have hammers. If other items are around, you can just chuck them at them anyway.

 

[slayn]

"if people find items fun and their friends agree, I don't comdemn item use. After 100 hours of gameplay, my friends and I came to the conclusion that they were merely an irritation that resulted in lucky wins and disrupted heated battles."

thats what I said before. I don't use items in my house rules because after hundred's of hours of gameplay, we decided for our personal tastes that having no items was more fun.

what I was trying to argue was that given a situation... say a tournament or a gathering where people want to prove who is the best through a small amount of fair matches, I can't possibly understand why someone would turn items on and consider it a better and more fair test of skill.

having no items is just a statistically superior way of playing in that specific situation.

 

[miyuru]

Yeah, if you're looking at *pure* skill, that's logic.

It's just that "pure skill" is subjective. That's why this argument came up.

 

[slayn]

ok then, I would argue that "pure skill" with no items is infinitely easier to measure in a tournament than "pure skill" with items. And thats why the no item route is better.
argument from practicality =)

 

[Mr. Lemming]

A good player should know how to mitigate the opponent's use of items. It's like a poker player making the best use of a bad hand, and legally Poker is considered a game of skill.

 

[miyuru]

Yup. It's just safer to play without items in a tournament. Safer as in, the player with more skill will win more often.

However, I doubt it'd be as exciting.

But yeah, that's just for tournaments.

When I'm playing at home or wherever, everything at default!

Edit: And for anyone that missed it, here's that link of insane SSBM videos (glitches and all):

http://hp742.hp.infoseek.co.jp/smadx/play/movie.html

 

[slayn]

there skill involved in poker, but luck as well.

plus, a poker tournament has a lot more hands than a smash brothers tournament has rounds. Thats why it still works. Its the whole law of averages.

if you have a mediocre poker player play against the best poker player in the world, the medoicre player has a pretty good chance of winning if you say you are only going to play 3 hands, and the person with more money afterward wins. The expert still has the advantage, though not much of one.

its as time goes on and more and more hands go by the probability for the expert to win goes up and up until it eventually converges to his "true" possibility.

then, poker throws even more skill into it by making certain rounds worth more depending on the bets. There really is no equivalent thing in smash brothers that could be done.

 

[tenchir]

If there's a fighting game tournament, I doubt Super Smash Bros Melee(with no item to make it "fair") would be a good fighting game compared to say...... Tekken series, Street Fighter series, King of Fighter Series, etc......

 

[slayn]

...and I disagree! ^_^

but then I am not a tournament type person, because I am not a competitively minded person. If your argument is based on the depth of the gameplay, then we have an argument. If based on something else... then prolly not.

 

[Mr. Lemming]

there skill involved in poker, but luck as well.

plus, a poker tournament has a lot more hands than a smash brothers tournament has rounds. Thats why it still works. Its the whole law of averages.

if you have a mediocre poker player play against the best poker player in the world, the medoicre player has a pretty good chance of winning if you say you are only going to play 3 hands, and the person with more money afterward wins. The expert still has the advantage, though not much of one.

its as time goes on and more and more hands go by the probability for the expert to win goes up and up until it eventually converges to his "true" possibility.

then, poker throws even more skill into it by making certain rounds worth more depending on the bets. There really is no equivalent thing in smash brothers that could be done.

But a single round is not decided by an item's appearance or disappearance. A single life, yes, but since you usually have many lives in a round there is a similar thing to playing many hands of Poker. I also understand not wanting things like the Hammer or the healing items, but for things like the bombs to be removed, also removes a lot of the elements of skill from the game. Seeing someone catch bombs and throw them back consistently is a sight to behold.

 

[tenchir]

By removing the items, you are removing some depth from the game. I liked it when one of my friends pick up a bomb and throw it at me only to have me catch it and launch it back at him. I like to trick a character with the hammer into falling into the hole. I like smacking a character before he has a chance to use the light beam sword. The items adds strategy to the game, otherwise it's just beating up into each other.

 

[miyuru]

If there's a fighting game tournament, I doubt Super Smash Bros Melee(with no item to make it "fair") would be a good fighting game compared to say...... Tekken series, Street Fighter series, King of Fighter Series, etc......

Yeah, I don't know why, but I agree. I'm an avid fan of both traditional fighters and SSBM.

Um, I don't like Tekken though (or 3D fighters in general ^_^). Then again, never really had some quality time with it.

 

[slayn]

I wonder if youa re the same people that would praise VF as the deepest fighter ever with its non-randomness. Suddenly beating up on eath other can't have depth? ;P

in a round of poker; until the point where someone is eliminated in a tournament, decided within ~15 hands? (I seriously don't know)

and again, the thing that adds the most skill in poker is the betting. Saying every hand is worth x amount of money no matter what basically eliminates the skill in poker... which would be more comparable to smash brothers.

one of the problems with limiting "some" items is, where do you draw the line and who decides? At least for tourneys, you basically have to decide on all items or none, unless there is one item that everyone universally agrees as being unfair (which will never happen)

you are removing a skill of bomb catching when you turn off bombs, but you are simultaneously eliminating luck and thus random noise in probabilities. For a tourney or something similar, that is a good exchange. If someone gets a bomb when you're off the edge and can just start hurl it at you at his leasire... well... he'd have to suck pretty bad to miss. And you would have gotten screwed over on a life you very well might have won.

 

[tenchir]

The problem in the first place is getting knocked off the ledge isn't it? It also doesn't have to be a bomb, if a character have a projectile attack, then he would have won regardless(unless he suck at using projectiles), and it wouldn't have been fair because not all characters have projectile attacks. Also you have to keep in mind that it is possible to avoid the bomb being thrown at you as you jumping back onto the ledge like dodging, or a planned jump if you know where the bomb path is. Characters have shields, reflections, dodging, blocking, bouncing, and catching..... start using those skills.

 

[slayn]

fox's laser is hardly the same as a bomb.

a bomb is far more powerful (death if you're off the edge), and more versatile to launch and thus easier to hit with.

and lets not forget you could have gotten off the ledge in the first place by having a bomb fall from the sky and land on you, or by having a pill explode because you happened to kick in the air when one was appearing.

to your edit: dodging a bomb when coming back on the ledge is extremely difficult if not impossible if the person wielding said bomb is competent and patient. And depending on your character, may very well be impossible to deal with.

 

[tenchir]

It's not a bomb, but if used right, then it doesn't matter, you still lose. Like I said you can still avoid the bomb(dodge or jump) if you are good enough. When a bomb falls from the sky on you, I am pretty sure it won't blow up on you, someone would have to either throw it at you or drop it on you. You have to be pretty high in order not to see objects falling on you when you attack.

I have dodge bombs often before when jumping back to the ledge, it's not that it's impossible, you just have to timed it right. I play with items enough have to avoid it. No one is perfect at throwing bombs.

 

[slayn]

I disagree with your dodging. I think if someone is young link, off the edge far enough that he will have to use his up B, there is not a damn thing he can do to survive.

I know I have had stuff appear and fall on me and kill me, can't be sure its a bomb.

at the very least, its possible for a pill to appear on you right when getting hit, triggering an explosion and turning a 6% damage attack into death. And that happened all too often for my friends and I to be able to justify having bombs turned on.

 

[tenchir]

It would depends on how far you are from the ledge, if you are close to it, it is pretty easy for me to get back on and avoiding the bomb. The farther I am away from ledge the harder it is for me to dodge it. But like I said again, if the opponent has a projectile attack and know how to use it, he could just prevent me from jumping back on if he timed his shot right. Hell, if you are far enough, any character can prevent you from jumping back on.

You know if you hang onto the ledge, the bomb can't hurt you if it is exploded right near the ledge.

 

[slayn]

the chances of someone killing another person off the edge with a laser attack are pretty slim, no matter how far away they are. And the biggest difference is that projectiles can't be shot down. Its easy to dodge a projectile attack when you are still far away from the ledge, its when you started far away and come closer and closer that they become near impossible to dodge.

you could always wait until the last second to push up b so you will only barely grab the ledge. No projectile can hit you then, not so with a bomb. They can just throw it straight down off the edge before you grab it.

without the bomb, they have to risk going down to physically attack you

 

[tenchir]

Bombs can't hurt you even if it's thrown near the edge, he would have to throw it right down on you for it to hit. If the opponent can get to the ledge before you do, it doesn't matter if he has the bomb or not, he will walloped you the moment he get up.

 

[slayn]

which is what he would do. When you are doing your up b to reach the ledge, you are a sitting duck for a bomb, but are in a position where no cahracter projectile could hit you, and are difficult to hit with physicals depending on your character.

once on the ledge you have so many options there is no way for your opponent to be guaranteed to kill you.

 

[tenchir]

If he is away from the ledge, then it's possible for you not to take any damage, use shield bubble. The opponent shouldn't be able to predict when you are coming up, when he see's you coming up and throws the bomb, the time it takes for the bomb to get to you should be enough to put up the shield(if he's far enough). See? With items, there's more strategy involved.

 

[slayn]

your not understanding

if you are young link
far enough away that we both knw you will use your up B
I will not throw said bomb until you are spinning in the air from your up B

there is no planning, no stratedgy, no nothing. Thats just what I would do, every time. And it would always work.

 

[tenchir]

No, it's you who are not listening. You HAVE to be close to the ledge for it to happen. What are the chances of it happening every single time? Most of the time, you can be far from the ledge, close to the ledge, the opponent of the bomb can be far from the ledge, or close to the ledge, you are just talking about a very very specific scenario that won't happen in every game.

Taking out items because of ideal situation is just stupid.

Seriously, IF:

I'm Young Link.
I'm knocked far from the ledge.
You happen to be close to the ledge.
You happen to have a bomb.

OMG!!!! BOMBS teh suck!!! It's screws everything up!!!

 

[SentientStone]

At first I wasn't that into SSBM (didn't think it was a serious fighter), but during the past few months I have grown to love this game more (especially when playing with a group of friends). There is just so much variables in the game that it makes every match unique and fun. Of course playing with people with different play-styles adds another dimension to the game (one of whom has the specialty of using Mr. Game and Watch and "C-sticking" with all his might ). Also I like the fact that it isn't as "mash-friendly" as something like Soul Calibur 2.

My favourite characters to play as are Donkey Kong, Bowser and Peach (I only like using big and fat characters...or girls. ).

 

[slayn]

but it will happen often enough that having the bomb around can't be justified. Its an example of a single scenario, of which there is more than one, in that having the bomb around can cause a win out of sheer dumb luck of where it has fallen. Between two equal players where it will be down to the last life, all the bomb has to do is unluckily make the difference in 1 life, and the entire match has just been determined by luck.

and unless the level is huge and the bomb gets dropped on the opposite side, running and grabbing it and running back before the person has used their up b is not a time struggle.

 

[tenchir]

Get this straight, DUMB LUCK ALWAYS OCCUR. It doesn't matter how equal the players are, dumb luck will always be there.

 

[Mr. Lemming]

Random question but why is Stock preferred more than Time in tournaments? I would think for a tournament Time would be more fitting since generally they need to fit within time constraints, and Stock battles can drag out in the later portion of the matches.

 

[slayn]

if dumb luck exists in a 1v1 match, stock 5, no items, on final destination, then it is so minute as to be statistically insignificant.

bombs are not