That is if bombs are always on 1 side of the map. If that happened then it's DUMB LUCK. The odds of that happening are about as good as one of the equal player winning all the games because the other players makes stupid mistakes. Like I said before, opponent getting a bomb doesn't mean you are screwed, you have to be in a very very bad position before you are truly screwed which means it's DUMB LUCK. Dumb luck is insignificant? Let's take your example of two "equal" players, what is the deciding factor of one of them winning in a 5 round match? Dumb luck wouldn't matter much if more games are played, so items are the same.
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Smash Brothers Melee is like... the most replayable multiplayer game ever.
- Thread starter MrCheez
- Start date
I have had the stock/time arguments many a time and I can't remember all the points.
time:
its too easy to get screwed out of your kill, either the person will purposefully kill themselves, to which peopel would put suicides at -2, but then you get bitching when there was a legitimate suicide at high health. Basically a lot of bitching even though its the same as stock.
its too easy to get screwed at the end. You could have won if there was only .2 seconds more. More bitching.
basically lots of bitching, and you just end up "fixing" times battles by turning it into stock anyway.
stock:
no bitching about kills. You die 5 times thats it, done.
the biggest problem with stock is that in 4 player you can run away... not so in 1v1 or 2v2.
in 2v2 tourneys, stock is used because they do NOT allow taking lives. If a team was good enough to slaughter 1 member of a team, then the idea is they deserve to have the 2v1 for the rest of the battle.
time:
its too easy to get screwed out of your kill, either the person will purposefully kill themselves, to which peopel would put suicides at -2, but then you get bitching when there was a legitimate suicide at high health. Basically a lot of bitching even though its the same as stock.
its too easy to get screwed at the end. You could have won if there was only .2 seconds more. More bitching.
basically lots of bitching, and you just end up "fixing" times battles by turning it into stock anyway.
stock:
no bitching about kills. You die 5 times thats it, done.
the biggest problem with stock is that in 4 player you can run away... not so in 1v1 or 2v2.
in 2v2 tourneys, stock is used because they do NOT allow taking lives. If a team was good enough to slaughter 1 member of a team, then the idea is they deserve to have the 2v1 for the rest of the battle.
dumb luck is dumb luck. You want to reduce it as much as possible for a tourney. You do that by eliminating items.
in a round of stock 5 between equal players, whoever has a bomb land near them is given an instant and lucky advantage. It just isn't as significant as my scenario, but it still adds advantage. How much of an advantage is determined by the scenario. A person can prove their skill by getting out of that situation, but if they don't get out of that situation it proves nothing. And thats annoying.
it isn't all that unlikely that there will be something semi powerful to throw at your opponent when they are off the ledge. It doesn't need to be a bomb. If it even has a 10% chance that someone can be screwed by the other person in a match by having an item when they are off the ledge at any point in the match, thats enough of a statistical variance that I would want nothing to do with items.
thats really all I have to say on the matter, and I must sleep
in a round of stock 5 between equal players, whoever has a bomb land near them is given an instant and lucky advantage. It just isn't as significant as my scenario, but it still adds advantage. How much of an advantage is determined by the scenario. A person can prove their skill by getting out of that situation, but if they don't get out of that situation it proves nothing. And thats annoying.
it isn't all that unlikely that there will be something semi powerful to throw at your opponent when they are off the ledge. It doesn't need to be a bomb. If it even has a 10% chance that someone can be screwed by the other person in a match by having an item when they are off the ledge at any point in the match, thats enough of a statistical variance that I would want nothing to do with items.
thats really all I have to say on the matter, and I must sleep
If you had taken statistic, you would know that you cannot eliminate odds you talked about in low numbers stock(5 stock? HAHAHAHAHA), it's just impossible. Removing items wouldn't helped at all(again statistically). The removing of items have nothing to do with statistic, it mostly preference. You are just annoyed that it happens. If you look at the all the games you play, items just doesn't matter. Don't count 5 stock games individually, count all 5 stock games and you will see items doesn't matter. If you are better than your opponent, you will lose a few games, but you will win more overall....... like other fighting games.
The logic is FLAWED, if we have a mathematician here, he will agree that the items won't matter. Large numbers of matches or small number of matches, it won't matter. Even in tournaments.
The use of items or no items has nothing to do with statistic, it's mostly preference.
Edit: We have any Computer Science major(programmers don't count)? Engineers? Mathemetician?
I'm an EE, but I want someone to back me up on this.
The use of items or no items has nothing to do with statistic, it's mostly preference.
Edit: We have any Computer Science major(programmers don't count)? Engineers? Mathemetician?
I'm an EE, but I want someone to back me up on this.
Lathentar said:
No it doesn't. You are talking as if matches that usually ends in 3-2 or 3-2 end up often as 4-1, 1-4, 5-0, 0-5. It does not matter if the skills between two players are nearly identical.
Sometime it will end up like that, but those outliers will occur regardless if items are used or not and in the same frequency.
reggieandTFE
Member
Exactly, I think the items are fairly well balanced...except for the bat. I love that goddamn baseball bat.
Items do spawn in mid air and drop down. Sometimes they're explosive and if they spawn *right* on top of you while you're in the middle of an attack.. you're getting hit.
As for the bat. Nobody I play with swings the thing, the thing does massive knockback on a simple freaking throw, far more effective than the swing because there's really no chargeup at all.
As for the bat. Nobody I play with swings the thing, the thing does massive knockback on a simple freaking throw, far more effective than the swing because there's really no chargeup at all.
Those mid-air spawns are pretty high, you can see them falling down. Even if it happens to fall on top of your head while the enemy swings at you, it would also hit the enemy, otherwise it will land right next to you.
The bat throw would be effect at close range, at long range the opponent will just block it. In a 1v1 game, you don't have to focus on 3 enemy, just 1 so if any item that drops, you will not be taken off guard.
It's just playing preference, you just don't want to deal with the variables that items introduce.
The bat throw would be effect at close range, at long range the opponent will just block it. In a 1v1 game, you don't have to focus on 3 enemy, just 1 so if any item that drops, you will not be taken off guard.
It's just playing preference, you just don't want to deal with the variables that items introduce.
stun and throw owns hammer. I alwasy love doing hat.
I will be back tomorrow to drop my dissertation on why SSBM is > You.
but I am not about to join this discussion of randomness etc, play the mode and set up that is fun for you
this is something entirely different.
On a side note, about items, the only thing I would have asked is that it would have been cool if Items had yielded different air attacks asa well as up and down smashs. it would have totally changed item usage IMO for the better.
I will be back tomorrow to drop my dissertation on why SSBM is > You.
but I am not about to join this discussion of randomness etc, play the mode and set up that is fun for you
this is something entirely different.On a side note, about items, the only thing I would have asked is that it would have been cool if Items had yielded different air attacks asa well as up and down smashs. it would have totally changed item usage IMO for the better.
How do you turn off specific levels? It's probably something very easy to see and I'm just not seeing it, but I also went months without knowing how to turn on teams simply because I didn't realise the word "MELEE" on the character select screen was actually selectable. >_<slayn said:
Also, just a general question to anyone, is the game supposed to save the options like stock level, time, level selection, etc., on the options screen? I have a third-party memory card and I thought that might've been causing some troubles, if an official one will allow me to save all Melee options (not just items) then I'll get one of those.
edit:
Health Mode? What's Health Mode? I feel like such a fucking newbie.scola said:Misguided? Health mode is the shit. After a player looses all their health the game goes slow mo and allows you to beat the shit out of their corpse for comedy value. I actually wished they had fleshed out health mode a little more, having a best of set up, a zoom cam and longer slow mo times.
Nothing like throwing some one of the edge and dunking their lifeless body into a crevice with a tap Down +A.
Mind you I don't play the mode excessively but it is a nice change of pace
I've always assumed that you aren't supposed to allow yourself to get in a position where you were unable to return to the platform... getting that far out is putting yourself at needless risk. You have to balance that risk with the supposed possibility of avoiding death. A bomb can keep you from ever making it back to a ledge... but why are you off the ledge to begin with?
(Aside from using Kirby to fly under the level, of course.)
(Aside from using Kirby to fly under the level, of course.)
tenchir said:
You're wrong. Pulled from a gamefaq at: http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/super_smash_bros_melee_pokemon_a.txt
Also, I love items. If my friend would let me, we'd play with items on low. I play as sheik, whose speed gives her a huge advantage when there are a number of items. Apparently I'm too much of an item whore.
On small arenas, like Flat Zone and Mute City's moving platform, Raikou can be 100% unavoidable.
Let's say there's a pill. Let's say the pill you thrown(thrown at you) or hit(if it doesn't explode) happen to have a pokeball in it. Then let's say you grab it on time. Then let's say you throw it at the right spot if not at the enemy. Then let's say it contains Raikou instead of say..... Goldeen, then it's possible.
Let's say there's a pill. Let's say the pill you thrown(thrown at you) or hit(if it doesn't explode) happen to have a pokeball in it. Then let's say you grab it on time. Then let's say you throw it at the right spot if not at the enemy. Then let's say it contains Raikou instead of say..... Goldeen, then it's possible.
Lathentar said:
If all of what I say above occur, then it "could" be a game changer(if you are low on health), but so is any power attack an opponents does to you. It's just something that could happen, not something that happens with regularity. All the things that have been argued against items have been situations that are rare.
tenchir said:
The Law of Probablities says that over a given amount of time these rare situations would affect both players equally, but in 1 to 3 games these rare situations might arise and screw over one of the players. Why take the risk, when without items there is no risk?
If I gave you a gun and said there is a 99% chance there is not a bullet in the chamber would you pull it? Why take the risk?
FYI, I'm one of those CS majors you requested a number of posts ago.
Let me get this straight, you basically go over to your friend's house for a game, win 1 game(2 out of 3), and go home? Or you do keep playing for like over 2-3 hours? The statistic then don't matter anymore(1 in 3 games HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, nice try).
How about this, Law of Probability also says that 1 in 3 games(hahahahahahaha) one of the player sneeze, made a stupid mistake, cough, got distracted etc.... The point it, these things happens sometime, but most of the time they work out.
Even when only playing 1 game(2 out of 3), the odds of those situations happening is still not good. A lot of things have to happen for those situation to occur.
How about this, Law of Probability also says that 1 in 3 games(hahahahahahaha) one of the player sneeze, made a stupid mistake, cough, got distracted etc.... The point it, these things happens sometime, but most of the time they work out.
Even when only playing 1 game(2 out of 3), the odds of those situations happening is still not good. A lot of things have to happen for those situation to occur.
Let's take the bomb example again, let's say that:
Your opponent is far from the ledge which implied
----He had low health and was knocked out. Which don't look good for him in the first place w/wo bomb.
----He jumped out. Suicidal?
There happens to be a bomb nearby.
----It happens to appeared in the right place and right time so it won't blow you up. Or it timing out.
You are in a position so that he cannot avoid the bomb
----You happen to get the ledge ahead of him if he's going to hang or bit farther if he will jump on the ledge.
---------If he's planning to jump on the ledge, then let's assume he somehow can't dodge or shield up.
Now all of these got to happen before you can say for sure he is screwed. What are the odd of this situation happening in a match? Let say 1/100. What's the odd of it happening in the next match? Same thing, 1/100.... the next? 1/100. So is it going to occur in your first game? Not likely, how about say...... your 9th game? Possibly. Your 20th? You still playing?? If you are a good player, you can normally handle items, it's just those situation that rarely occurs that screws you which happens as much as a person sneezing and screwing up, but if you are a good player, you will still win consistently.
Now, are you saying you removing the items(and the extra depth it adds) because of the possibility those situations might happen?
Your opponent is far from the ledge which implied
----He had low health and was knocked out. Which don't look good for him in the first place w/wo bomb.
----He jumped out. Suicidal?
There happens to be a bomb nearby.
----It happens to appeared in the right place and right time so it won't blow you up. Or it timing out.
You are in a position so that he cannot avoid the bomb
----You happen to get the ledge ahead of him if he's going to hang or bit farther if he will jump on the ledge.
---------If he's planning to jump on the ledge, then let's assume he somehow can't dodge or shield up.
Now all of these got to happen before you can say for sure he is screwed. What are the odd of this situation happening in a match? Let say 1/100. What's the odd of it happening in the next match? Same thing, 1/100.... the next? 1/100. So is it going to occur in your first game? Not likely, how about say...... your 9th game? Possibly. Your 20th? You still playing?? If you are a good player, you can normally handle items, it's just those situation that rarely occurs that screws you which happens as much as a person sneezing and screwing up, but if you are a good player, you will still win consistently.
Now, are you saying you removing the items(and the extra depth it adds) because of the possibility those situations might happen?
once someone I respect within a thread has asked me to stop arguing, I do so. So I won't continue this needless argument, but Tenchir, I just wanted to point out that I am exactly what you asked for. I am a Computer Science Major in Engineering and have already completed a minor in mathematics.
Red Dolphin
Member
This thread is too massive for me to read through properly. I have to say I've logged a lot of time into both the original and Melee. Fantastic games. I never thought Nintendo would come out with a game that beats Mario Kart in the multiplayer department but they did.
I mentioned this on the old boards but I'll say it again. About 6 months ago a guy broke into my house and stole my platinum GameCube, memory card and all my games, plus my GBASP. I had an Xbox sitting there too but it must have been too heavy for the bastard
Anyway I was devastated only by the loss of my memory card as everything else was/is replacable. I'd put close to 100 hours into multiplayer and unloced all the trophies except for maybe half a dozen. Pissed me off so much I've not really played all that much of the game since and I can't be arsed unlocking the characters in single player so I'll just have to unlock everything the long way through multiplayer.
Anyway my settings for playing are:
Stock: 3
Time: 4.00
Stage: Random
Combining time and stock is great because it's the best of both options. You can't hang around and not participate in the fight and the time limit sometimes means a really frantic ending to the match which can lead to Sudden Death mode.
One other thing. Has anyone managed to complete the single player game (in Adventure or Classic) without taking any damage? There's a trophey you can earn by doing it but it's practically impossible even on the easiest setting.
I mentioned this on the old boards but I'll say it again. About 6 months ago a guy broke into my house and stole my platinum GameCube, memory card and all my games, plus my GBASP. I had an Xbox sitting there too but it must have been too heavy for the bastard
Anyway I was devastated only by the loss of my memory card as everything else was/is replacable. I'd put close to 100 hours into multiplayer and unloced all the trophies except for maybe half a dozen. Pissed me off so much
I've not really played all that much of the game since and I can't be arsed unlocking the characters in single player so I'll just have to unlock everything the long way through multiplayer.Anyway my settings for playing are:
Stock: 3
Time: 4.00
Stage: Random
Combining time and stock is great because it's the best of both options. You can't hang around and not participate in the fight and the time limit sometimes means a really frantic ending to the match which can lead to Sudden Death mode.
One other thing. Has anyone managed to complete the single player game (in Adventure or Classic) without taking any damage? There's a trophey you can earn by doing it but it's practically impossible even on the easiest setting.
ManDudeChild
Member
slayn said:
If you know how to catch items on the ground and in the air properly items being thrown make no difference.
Yes, I use Shiek/Zelda. I find the speed of Shiek + the easy in which I can juggle enemies around like my bitch helps greatly. On Bowser juggle him around in the air. Once Giga comes out I simply stick by the edge and move around until he makes the stupid fall of the ledge mistake. With Master/Crazy hands I use a combination of teleports and the charge up needle trick where you can move with six storred (charge up 6 then activate shield).
ManDudeChild
Member
Sadly even on level 9 there are lots of tricks you can use to trick the AI. My favorite's putting a mine on top of a piece of food or heart container.
ManDudeChild
Member
Orin GA said:
That sounds boring. Where's the skill?
I've owned Melee for over a year now, but I'm still not 100% sure how to catch an item in mid air. Is it just tapping the A button right when the item is close enough to grab? I really would like to improve on that skill to embarass my friends.
Oh yeah, my favorite character is actually Samus, I love using her rockets for long range annoyance, and while her smashes are slow, they are powerful.
Oh yeah, my favorite character is actually Samus, I love using her rockets for long range annoyance, and while her smashes are slow, they are powerful.
ManDudeChild
Member
Most of the Pokemon attacks are easy to dodge. The only ones that i've ever had a problem with is that stupid one that turns the screen dark.
As for grabbing. Yes, on the ground that's basically how you do it. In the air however it's different. What you do is you tab L or R and then quickly press A as the items in your grasp.
As for grabbing. Yes, on the ground that's basically how you do it. In the air however it's different. What you do is you tab L or R and then quickly press A as the items in your grasp.
ManDudeChild
Member
You have to be in the process of air dodging while pressing A (in other words, press not hold), and the item naturally has to be in range. It takes a while to get good at it. When I first discovered it, I started practicing using a parasol, throwing it straight up and catching it.