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Starbucks has paid no tax in UK since 2009

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Gowans

Member
Good bean counters? Starbucks has paid no tax in UK since 2009
Probe shows coffee chain used clever accounting to minimise bills – despite UK sales of over £1bn


Starbucks has used accounting tricks to pay almost no UK tax on the millions of coffees, sandwiches and cakes bought by the British public for the past decade, it was revealed yesterday.

An investigation showed the coffee company has paid only £8m in corporation tax to HMRC in the 14 years since it arrived on British high streets, despite generating sales of £3bn.

Starbucks UK's accounts show that it has minimised its tax burden by officially recording losses of tens of millions of pounds year after year.

Yet in its briefings to stock market investors and analysts over the past 12 years, the Seattle-based firm has consistently stated that its UK unit is "profitable" – and three years ago even promoted its UK head, Cliff Burrows, to run its much larger US operation. According to an investigation by Reuters, the anomaly can be explained by the use of legal accounting techniques which leave the coffee company paying HMRC proportionately less tax than other food and drink firms such as McDonald's and KFC.

The disclosure was immediately condemned by tax campaigners. It follows criticism of the tax record of two other large American corporations, Amazon and Facebook.

In April Amazon was revealed to be routing its UK sales through its European headquarters in low-tax Luxembourg, meaning that last year its UK corporation tax bill was nil, despite revenue of £3bn from the sale of books, DVDs and other goods.

Most of Facebook's UK income is thought to be routed through its European HQ in the Republic of Ireland, where corporation tax is lower. It paid tax of £238,000 on £20.4m sales last year, although one estimate puts its advertising revenue at £275m.

There is no suggestion that any of the three companies have broken the law, but Starbucks' case has aroused particular interest because its almost zero tax bills contrast so starkly with its bullish message to investors.

The Reuters investigation found that in 2009, Starbucks UK filed a loss of £52m in accounts lodged at Companies House – while its chief financial officer Troy Alstead told investors on a conference call that the UK arm was "profitable".

In 2010, the loss was £14m, but Starbucks reported sales growth, and in the year to September 2011 – when the loss was put at £33m – John Culver, Starbucks' international president, said he was pleased with the UK unit.

In common with other large companies, Starbucks appears to be exploiting differing tax regimes around the world. The company's UK unit, for instance, is required to pay a royalty rate of 6 per cent of sales to Starbucks for using its intellectual property. It is not clear where this money goes.

However, there is concern in the US that some American firms are using tax havens such as Switzerland – where tax on royalties can be 2 per cent – to collect charges for intellectual property.

Michael Meacher, a Labour MP and tax campaigner, complained that Starbucks was behaving in an "extremely unfair" way and acting against the interests of the public, telling Reuters it was "trying to play the taxman, game him. It's disgraceful."

Starbucks UK said it was following the rules. In a statement, a spokesman for the company said: "We have paid and will continue to pay our fair share of taxes in full compliance with all UK tax laws, as we always have.

"There has been no suggestion by any authority that we are anything but compliant and good taxpayers. We do this in a way that is consistent with the values that have guided us since we were founded more than 40 years ago – balancing our need to operate a profitable business with a social conscience."

Soure: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/good-bean-counters-starbucks-has-paid-no-tax-in-uk-since-2009-8212579.html



Reuters Special Report

(Reuters) - Starbucks' coffee menu famously baffles some people. In Britain, it's their accounts that are confusing. Starbucks has been telling investors the business was profitable, even as it consistently reported losses.

This apparent contradiction arises from tax avoidance, and sheds light on perfectly legal tactics used by multinationals the world over. Starbucks stands out because it has told investors one thing and the taxman another.

The Seattle-based group, with a market capitalization of $40 billion, is the second-largest restaurant or cafe chain globally after McDonald's. Accounts filed by its UK subsidiary show that since it opened in the UK in 1998 the company has racked up over 3 billion pounds ($4.8 billion) in coffee sales, and opened 735 outlets but paid only 8.6 million pounds in income taxes, largely due because the taxman disallowed some deductions.

Over the past three years, Starbucks has reported no profit, and paid no income tax, on sales of 1.2 billion pounds in the UK. McDonald's, by comparison, had a tax bill of over 80 million pounds on 3.6 billion pounds of UK sales. Kentucky Fried Chicken, part of Yum Brands Inc., the no. 3 global restaurant or cafe chain by market capitalization, incurred taxes of 36 million pounds on 1.1 billion pounds in UK sales, according to the accounts of their UK units.

Yet transcripts of investor and analyst calls over 12 years show Starbucks officials regularly talked about the UK business as "profitable", said they were very pleased with it, or even cited it as an example to follow for operations back home in the United States.

Troy Alstead, Starbucks' Chief Financial Officer and one of the company officials quoted in the transcripts of calls Reuters reviewed, defended his past comments, saying the company strictly follows international accounting rules and pays the appropriate level of tax in all the countries where it operates. A spokeswoman said by email that: "We seek to be good taxpayers and to pay our fair share of taxes ... We don't write this tax code; we are obligated to comply with it. And we do."

When presented with Reuters' findings, Michael Meacher, a member of parliament for the Labour Party who is campaigning against tax avoidance, said Starbucks' practice "is certainly profoundly against the interests of the countries where they operate and is extremely unfair ... they are trying to play the taxman, game him. It is disgraceful."

There is no suggestion Starbucks has broken any laws. Indeed, the group's overall tax rate - including deferred taxes which may or may not be paid in the future - was 31 percent last year, much higher than the 18.5 percent average rate that campaign group Citizens for Tax Justice says large U.S. corporations paid in recent years.

But on overseas income, Starbucks paid an average tax rate of 13 percent, one of the lowest in the consumer goods sector.

The UK tax authorities and the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS) said confidentiality rules prevented them from commenting.

A LOSSMAKER WITH FAT MARGINS

You could think of Starbucks' differing versions of its experience in the UK as two different coffees. To its investors, it sells an espresso - strong and vibrant. The UK taxman gets a watered-down Americano.

The contradiction between the two stories becomes evident from scrutiny of its group reports and the transcripts of 46 conference calls with investors and analysts.

Like most big corporations, Starbucks' group earnings statements do not break down its profits and tax payments by country, although on calls it occasionally shares details about larger markets such as the UK. But companies operating in the UK are obliged to lodge accounts at the company register, Companies House, to give a picture of the unit's financial performance.

In the 2007 financial year to end-September, Starbucks' UK unit's accounts showed its tenth consecutive annual loss. Yet that November, Chief Operating Officer Martin Coles told analysts on the fourth-quarter earnings call that the UK unit's profits were funding Starbucks' expansion in other overseas markets. Then-Chief Financial Officer Peter Bocian said the unit had enjoyed operating profit margins of almost 15 percent that year - equivalent to a profit of almost 50 million pounds.

For 2008, Starbucks filed a 26 million pounds loss in the UK. Yet CEO Schultz told an analysts' call that the UK business had been so successful he planned to take the lessons he had learnt there and apply them to the company's largest market - the United States. He also promoted Cliff Burrows, former head of the UK and Europe, to head the U.S. business.

Schultz said he looked forward to Burrows "now applying that same drive and business acumen to leading our U.S. business."

In 2009, accounts filed in London claimed a record loss of 52 million pounds for the financial year to September 27, while CFO Alstead told investors on a call that the UK unit was "profitable."

For 2010, the UK unit reported a 34 million pounds loss, and Starbucks told investors that sales continued to grow.

Starbucks UK unit's accounts for the year to September 2011 showed a 33 million pounds loss. Yet John Culver, President of Starbucks' International division, told analysts on a call earlier that year that "we are very pleased with the performance in the UK."

When Reuters asked Starbucks' CFO Alstead which version was accurate - Starbucks' accounts for the UK taxman, or its comments to investors, he said: "The UK is very troubled, unfortunately. Historically it has performed a little bit better than it does now."

He did not explain why the UK business was so disappointing, but said Starbucks was "taking very aggressive actions" to improve its performance, including changing its cost structure.

Meacher, the politician, said Starbucks' experience reflects broader problems in the UK system, which allows companies to pay less tax than they morally should. Tax campaigners say that failure is partly policy: successive governments have urged the tax authority to take a pro-business stance. The UK is one of the few rich countries not to have general anti-avoidance legislation, which the government is preparing now.

A LICENCE TO LOSE MONEY

Presented with the contradiction between Starbucks' UK accounts and its comments to investors, Starbucks' CFO Alstead identified two factors at play, both related to payments between companies within the group.

The first is royalties on intellectual property. Starbucks, like other consumer goods businesses, has taken a leaf out of the book of tech companies such as Google and Microsoft. Such firms were identified by Senator Carl Levin, chairman of the U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, in a September hearing on how U.S. companies shield billions from tax authorities. He said they were engaged in "gimmickry" by housing intellectual property units in tax havens, and then charging their subsidiaries fat royalties for using it.

Like those tech firms, Starbucks makes its UK unit and other overseas operations pay a royalty fee - at Starbucks, of six percent of total sales - for the use of its ‘intellectual property' such as its brand and business processes. These payments reduce taxable income in the UK.

McDonald's also charges its UK subsidiary a royalty for ‘intellectual property', although at a lower rate of 4-5 percent.

The fees from Starbucks' European units are paid to Amsterdam-based Starbucks Coffee EMEA BV, described by the company as its European headquarters, although Michelle Gass, the firm's president in Europe, is actually based in London.

It's unclear where the money paid to Starbucks Coffee EMEA BV ends up, or what tax is paid on it. The firm had revenues of 73 million euros in 2011 but declared a profit of only 507,000 euros. When asked how it burnt up all its revenue, Alstead pointed to staff costs and rent. The HQ has 97 employees.

Alstead said some of the unit's revenue was also paid to other Starbucks units, including one in Switzerland. He declined to say if fees paid for the use of the brand, which originated in the United States, are sent back to be taxed.

Professor Michael McIntyre at the Wayne State University Law School said it was rare for such fees to be repatriated to the United States, where corporate profits are taxed at up to 39 percent. In contrast in Switzerland, lawyers say, earnings from royalties can be taxed at rates as low as 2 percent.

Starbucks declined to comment when asked if it used offshore jurisdictions in this way.

ARM'S LENGTH

The UK tax authority, Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs (HMRC), allows companies to deduct intellectual property fees if firms can show the charges were made at "arm's length" - that is, if companies can show they would have agreed on the terms even if they were not connected.

One way to prove this is to show that a license for which a royalty is paid is key to the subsidiary's profitability, said Stella Amiss, international tax partner with accountancy firm PwC. After all, if you are paying for an asset that never generates a profit, you are probably paying too much. "You would need to show a track record of profitability," she said.

Starbucks says it abides by the ‘arm's length' principle, even if the company has not been profitable in the UK.

Accounts for McDonald's UK unit show it also pays trademark fees to associated companies, but these have generated profit. A spokeswoman for KFC said its UK unit did not pay such fees.

Accounting firm Deloitte, which audits both Starbucks' group accounts and those of the UK unit, declined to comment.

BEAN COUNTER

The second factor for the contradiction between Starbucks' local accounts and its comments to investors is a requirement to allocate some funds generated in the UK to other subsidiaries in its supply chain. "The profit sits where the value is created. That is a principle we subscribe to," Starbucks CFO Alstead said.

Starbucks buys coffee beans for the UK through a Lausanne, Switzerland-based firm, Starbucks Coffee Trading Co. Before the beans reach the UK they are roasted at a subsidiary which is based in Amsterdam but separate from the European HQ.

Alstead said that tax authorities in the Netherlands and Switzerland require Starbucks to allocate some profits from its UK sales to its Dutch roasting and Swiss trading units. This is a common requirement, which multinationals meet by setting prices, known as a "transfer prices", for goods that pass between different group entities. Experts say transfer prices are also a way for a company to minimize its tax bill.

It's not clear how Starbucks allocates such costs. What is clear is that while its UK subsidiary is making a loss, its Dutch roasting operation has only a small profit. In the past three years, the Amsterdam unit has had an average annual turnover of 154 million euros but recorded average profit of 1.6 million euros, or 1 percent of that, according to its accounts.

On average, 84 percent of the Amsterdam unit's annual revenue has gone on buying goods such as raw coffee beans, the electricity to roast them, and packaging.

Starbucks declined to give details, or comment on what the charges indicate about the price its roaster paid its Swiss unit for coffee beans. It also declined to say what profit the Swiss coffee-buying unit makes, although Alstead said it was "moderately" profitable. Swiss law does not require the unit to publish accounts.

Corporate profits are taxed at 24 percent in the UK and 25 percent in the Netherlands, whereas profits tied to international trade in commodities like coffee are taxed at rates as low as 5 percent in Switzerland, lawyers there say.

Starbucks was the subject of a UK customs inquiry in 2009 and 2010 into the company's transfer pricing practices. This was "resolved without recourse to any further action or penalty", a Starbucks spokesman said. HMRC declined to comment on the probe.

A CASH-RICH BORROWER

Starbucks' UK accounts show a third way it cuts its tax: inter-company loans. These are a common tactic for shifting profits to low-tax jurisdictions, according to a guidance manual used by the UK tax authorities, who try to limit the technique.

Such loans bring a double tax benefit to multinationals: the borrower can set any interest paid against taxable income, and the creditor can be based in a place that doesn't tax interest.

An examination of its accounts shows that Starbucks' UK unit is entirely funded by debt, and paid group companies 2 million pounds in interest last year. For comparison, McDonald's UK - which has 465 more branches than Starbucks - paid only 1 million pounds in interest to its group companies last year.

Starbucks hardly cuts its UK subsidiary a good deal. Its group bonds carry a coupon of Libor plus 1.3 percent. Libor, the London Inter-Bank Offered Rate, is an international interest rate benchmark frequently used in commercial lending. Starbucks charges its UK unit interest at Libor plus 4 percentage points. For comparison, KFC charges its subsidiaries around Libor plus 2 percentage points and the UK units of McDonald's pay affiliates interest at or below the Libor rate.

(Additional reporting by Cezary Podkul in New York Edited by Sara Ledwith, Richard Woods and Simon Robinson)

Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/10/15/us-britain-starbucks-tax-idUKBRE89E0EX20121015
 

Ein Bear

Member
"There has been no suggestion by any authority that we are anything but compliant and good taxpayers. We do this in a way that is consistent with the values that have guided us since we were founded more than 40 years ago – balancing our need to operate a profitable business with a social conscience."

Isn't that them admitting that they only pay as much tax as they feel like? Your 'values' don't dictate how much you owe.
 
How much will our debt be if Vodafone, Topshop and now Starbucks actually paid their taxes?

But nooooo they're looking at the petty £25k a year earners to fill the hole these dodgy fucking cunts have left us in
 

saunderez

Member
How much will our debt be if Vodafone, Topshop and now Starbucks actually paid their taxes?

But nooooo they're looking at the petty £25k a year earners to fill the hole these dodgy fucking cunts have left us in
Yup screw closing the loopholes too, they'll just tighten the screws on single taxpayers like always.
 

Dead Man

Member
Starbucks UK said it was following the rules. In a statement, a spokesman for the company said: "We have paid and will continue to pay our fair share of taxes in full compliance with all UK tax laws, as we always have.

"There has been no suggestion by any authority that we are anything but compliant and good taxpayers. We do this in a way that is consistent with the values that have guided us since we were founded more than 40 years ago – balancing our need to operate a profitable business with a social conscience."

Pathetic. In what way are they following any value other than maximising profit? Which is fine, but own up to it. Social conscience. Ridiculous.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
It is perhaps morally repugnant for Starbucks to pay so little tax, but they are doing it within the law. Do we blame them for following the law in such a way to minimize their tax payed?

We all do this in some way or another. It's just that in Starbucks' case, they have the resources to know how to exploit a whole bunch of legal loopholes that normal folks don't know about or can't access on their own.

It would be more productive to change the damn tax code to prevent this from happening, but that would conflict with politicians who have much to personally gain from an exploitable tax code.
 
Boycott motherfuckers, I prefer the coffee in Nero and Costa anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if both of them did something similar. Although it would be extra scandalous for Costa, being a "home-grown" coffee chain, to be avoiding tax in our own country, while average people are baring the brunt of the Government's austerity rampage.

"We're all in this together." Heh.
 

SteveWD40

Member
UK Corporation tax is set out so that we can attract large internationals to base themselves here and make it cheaper to do so, mainly as the Torys are obsessed with "big" business and like to ignore the SME's that make up the majority of our workforce.

They were singing and dancing about Amazon's new London operation, ignoring that they will create less jobs than half a dozen start ups and probably pay little to no tax.
 

V_Arnold

Member
...so, what are the consequences of this?

I mean, there has to be some, right?

But obviously, it is all good and well. IT IS THE LAW.
 

nib95

Banned
Fucking disgraceful. Make them pay up. No excuses. Every penny. Tax man doesn't give a fuck when I or my family are in a pickle and they're harping down our throats for tens of thousands, and you know what, I don't expect them to. You pay your dues. Fuck these guys who get away with this. It should be fraud carrying extreme punishment and sentencing. I expected some degree of tax liability reduction, but these sums and figures are out of control. And from some of the most profitable and prominent companies around.

I feel like the public in a national effort should just stop paying taxes or something until this shit is collected. I just don't see them doing anything about it until serious repercussions are met.
 

DBT85

Member
It seems that the word cunt was allowed back on gaf just at the right time.

Shouldn't be allowed to happen. But it has been under different govts and will no doubt continue to be.

Cunts all of them are.
 

nib95

Banned
Doubly bad because blatantly this tax "benifit" that these large corporations enjoy give them even more profit and buying power to drive out smaller businesses that would have likely hired more people and paid tend fold more taxes too!
 
Doubly bad because blatantly this tax "benifit" that these large corporations enjoy give them even more profit and buying power to drive out smaller businesses that would have likely hired more people and paid tend fold more taxes too!

Yup, meanwhile the Tories label themselves the party of small businesses and start-ups.
 

Dead Man

Member
UK Corporation tax is set out so that we can attract large internationals to base themselves here and make it cheaper to do so, mainly as the Torys are obsessed with "big" business and like to ignore the SME's that make up the majority of our workforce.

They were singing and dancing about Amazon's new London operation, ignoring that they will create less jobs than half a dozen start ups and probably pay little to no tax.

Yeah, that's the stupidity of it.
 
Our tax code is longer than the bible. It's not surprising stuff like this happens. I think most people, from all walks of the political spectrum, can agree that we need to drastically simplify our tax regime, whether it goes up or down, left or right.

Edit: I'd support independent cafes if the coffee they sold was any good. I live in central London and whilst there are some great ones, they're few and far between. Simply being 'independent' doesn't mean you're any better at making coffee. If I'm out and about, I know I'm gonna like Costa. I might prefer the independent place, but my experience tells me it's more likely to be crap than great.
 

Rourkey

Member
As an accountant I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet, a rapidly expanding business can be profitable and have little tax to pay because of the investments it is making in stores and distribution. The tax system is designed to encourage investment and there are tax breaks for it making taxable profit different to accounting profit.

Once investment dries up the Exchequer benefit because the stores are all built generating profit and therefore tax
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
How much will our debt be if Vodafone, Topshop and now Starbucks actually paid their taxes?

But nooooo they're looking at the petty £25k a year earners to fill the hole these dodgy fucking cunts have left us in

I'm not privy to the sitation in the UK, but tax inspectors believe that 80% of the tax fraud in Spain is committed by corporations. Let that sink: 80%. And that in a country with a very sizeable informal economy.

You'd think that it's in the best interest of everybody to prosecute those companies, but government after government ("leftist" or conservative, it doesn't really matter) they've made their best to strangle tax inspectors so they only have the resources to go after small, family operated business without the means to cover their fraud. They may enact harsher penalties to save face, but in the end punishment doesn't mean squat if it's not enforced.

Meanwhile, as a small business owner/self employed person with completely transparent transactions, I'm getting taxed out of the arse.
 

SteveWD40

Member
As an accountant I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet, a rapidly expanding business can be profitable and have little tax to pay because of the investments it is making in stores and distribution. The tax system is designed to encourage investment and there are tax breaks for it making taxable profit different to accounting profit.

Once investment dries up the Exchequer benefit because the stores are all built generating profit and therefore tax

*douses torch and puts down pitchfork*

Oh, well...carry on then.
 

nib95

Banned
As an accountant I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet, a rapidly expanding business can be profitable and have little tax to pay because of the investments it is making in stores and distribution. The tax system is designed to encourage investment and there are tax breaks for it making taxable profit different to accounting profit.

Once investment dries up the Exchequer benefit because the stores are all built generating profit and therefore tax

Sorry, if you're not paying taxes on profits and shoving it all in to new investments, that's still duping the system and getting an unfair advantage vs the rest. There are limits on how much you can put away as tax expenditure, at least that's how it is with most small businesses and it should be no different with larger corporations either.
 

kitch9

Banned
UK Corporation tax is set out so that we can attract large internationals to base themselves here and make it cheaper to do so, mainly as the Torys are obsessed with "big" business and like to ignore the SME's that make up the majority of our workforce.

They were singing and dancing about Amazon's new London operation, ignoring that they will create less jobs than half a dozen start ups and probably pay little to no tax.

I'm a SME owner, and nothing really has changed since the Labour days, so dunno what you are trying to say? Corporation tax is paid on profits made in the UK we have no jurisdiction to profits made in other countries.

Multi-nationals by nature to have the benefit of being able to bounce of the various countries tax systems they trade in but that's how it is and its difficult to curtail given to the open nature of the worlds markets.... If someone has a more competitive tax rate than us people will try to leverage it.

Sorry, if you're not paying taxes on profits and shoving it all in to new investments, that's still duping the system and getting an unfair advantage vs the rest. There are limits on how much you can put away as tax expenditure, at least that's how it is with most small businesses and it should be no different with larger corporations either.

WTF are you on about? Are you actually advocating businesses shouldn't invest and expand, therefore being more profitable and taxable in the future?

Some of you guys are off the charts.....
 

Dead Man

Member
I'm a SME owner, and nothing really has changed since the Labour days, so dunno what you are trying to say?

Multi-nationals by nature to have the benefit of being able to bounce of the various countries tax systems they trade in but that's how it is and its difficult to curtail given to the open nature of the worlds markets....

It's only difficult to curtail if you think they should be given breaks that are a detriment to the country because their investment outweighs the alternative. If you don't play their game it is easy to curtail. I would rather use the money and tax breaks for small local businesses.
 

SteveWD40

Member
I'm a SME owner, and nothing really has changed since the Labour days, so dunno what you are trying to say?

I am also an SME owner and know exactly what I am trying to say. Corporation tax rate is one thing that has changed (went down) since Labour, but more specifically the Tory cabinet have closer ties with large corporates than certainly all but Blair (post resignation) did.

Both govt's let this sort of thing go on, but I feel that it gets less pressure / policing from Conservatives.
 

nib95

Banned
This might also partially explain why they were more privy to such aggressive expansion. I remember a while back reading they wanted to open 200 stores in only a matter of years. Well they did, and no doubt these tax loopholes for "investment" helped them to expand and in doing so drive many small tax paying businesses (especially cafés) out of business.
 

Rourkey

Member
Sorry, if you're not paying taxes on profits and shoving it all in to new investments, that's still duping the system and getting an unfair advantage vs the rest. There are limits on how much you can put away as tax expenditure, at least that's how it is with most small businesses and it should be no different with larger corporations either.

The cost of investments is capitalised and spread over many years meaning you pay now but the full cost does not hit your profit in the year.

This means you make a profit even though you have had to borrow money to expand because you paid out more than you took in because of the cost of the investment.


The reliefs are available to all businesses, although the coalition has reduced the reliefs available from this year (and instead lowered the headline tax rate to encourage business to move back here).

Personally I think reducing the reliefs is a bad thing, towards the year end companies would spend money on capital items inorder to use the tax reliefs this provided a boost to the economy, now there is much less reason for them to do so so they hang on to the cash.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Sounds like UK tax law is messed up.

If they aren't breaking any tax laws, and it doesn't look like they are, then you guys should close that loophole.
 

nib95

Banned
The cost of investments is capitalised and spread over many years meaning you pay now but the full cost does not hit your profit in the year.

This means you make a profit even though you have had to borrow money to expand because you paid out more than you took in because of the cost of the investment.


The reliefs are available to all businesses, although the coalition has reduced the reliefs available from this year (and instead lowered the headline tax rate to encourage business to move back here).

Personally I think reducing the reliefs is a bad thing, towards the year end companies would spend money on capital items inorder to use the tax reliefs this provided a boost to the economy, now there is much less reason for them to do so so they hang on to the cash.

We need to stop babying these mega companies like their investments are that much more beneficial to our economy than smaller businesses. They're not. Also we need to realise that these companies or others replacing them would exist irrespective of tax cuts since the demand is still here as are the healthy potential profits even with the taxes. The idea that Vodafone, Topshop, Starbux etc would not make a profit or be able to expand without these tax breaks is frankly insulting. They're several times more profitable than smaller chains. Coupled with the tax cuts you speak of and to me this system just seems assinine.

I for one am glad these reliefs have been reduced and feel much more needs to be done.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
how does paying a 6% charge for licensing 'intellectual property' let you take it off your tax bill? Surely thats just a cost you have to cover like many other businesses?

and its not fucking IP anyway, its a franchisee cost at best.

Governments should look at the tricks being used - because there are a few being used over and over again, and shut them the fuck down.

Fuck amazon, fuck Starbucks. They want our money, then pay the government a decent rate of tax.

Basically I'm paying more tax because starbucks don't want to.


Inland Revenue should just be able to go 'you are taking the piss, thats not an IP license - pay up. Sales of how much? Here is a tax bill'

Why is it so complicated?


and if they squeal 'oh but then we can't afford to run a business in your country, we'll take our business elsewhere', we go 'fuck off then'. Starbucks can't just leave, because then Nero/costa etc would take their income, we wouldn't even blink.
 

winstano

Member
Meanwhile, as a small business owner/self employed person with completely transparent transactions, I'm getting taxed out of the arse.

That's what really fucks me off about this situation. On one hand, the govt have the attitude of "People need to make their own way! Small businesses are great! People, make your own money, we'll help you!" whilst taxing them to oblivion, yet the likes of Voda, Starbucks etc get away with paying absolutely shit all. Just... Guh. Fucking ridiculous.
 

Rourkey

Member
We need to stop babying these mega companies like their investments are that much more beneficial to our economy than smaller businesses. They're not. Also we need to realise that these companies or others replacing them would exist irrespective of tax cuts since the demand is still here as are the healthy potential profits even with the taxes. The idea that Vodafone, Topshop, Starbux etc would not make a profit or be able to expand without these tax breaks is frankly insulting. They're several times more profitable than smaller chains. Coupled with the tax cuts you speak of and to me this system just seems assinine.

I for one am glad these reliefs have been reduced and feel much more needs to be done.

I wonder how many people were employed by the Tea shops that the UK had before all the coffee chains opened up?

There is a whole industry here now and i'm sure it's a much bigger benefit to the economy that what we had before, employs a lot more people and will ultimately will pay a whole world more in tax.

You think that little locally owned cafe down the road declares all its income on its tax and VAT returns? You think it declares all its employees and doesn't have a couple being paid cash in hand?

At least the big companies fill in their forms properly even if you dont like the fact they pay the taxes inline with the way the law is set out for them.

A friend of mine has graduated from uni and is now working in a starbucks as a management trainee because she has to do a a year in a store first, shall I tell her what she is doing is morally wrong?
 
Why not kick them out? It's not like their own alternatives to it and Amazon. And I think the public would even support it considering the context

I wonder how many people were employed by the Tea shops that the UK had before all the coffee chains opened up?

There is a whole industry here now and i'm sure it's a much bigger benefit to the economy that what we had before, employs a lot more people and will ultimately will pay a whole world more in tax.

You think that little locally owned cafe down the road declares all its income on its tax and VAT returns? You think it declares all its employees and doesn't have a couple being paid cash in hand?

At least the big companies fill in their forms properly even if you dont like the fact they pay the taxes inline with the way the law is set out for them.

A friend of mine has graduated from uni and is now working in a starbucks as a management trainee because she has to do a a year in a store first, shall I tell her what she is doing is morally wrong?

Are we sure about that? What's the tax rate? 20%? And Starbucks have around 700 stores in the UK, each with an average of 4 employees. That's 2,800 people. Assuming they all get paid 20K, that's £56m potentially input into our economy. But they made a profit of around £1b. If the tax rate is 20%, that's a potential £200m that they owed the nation.

Am I doing this right
 

SteveWD40

Member
I wonder how many people were employed by the Tea shops that the UK had before all the coffee chains opened up?

This one I do agree on, all these "independents", where the fuck were you before the big chains showed up? I remember trying to get a coffee when I was 17 and it was nigh on impossible outside of a shitty cup of instant in some greasy spoon.

They all jumped on the bandwagon then cried when they couldn't compete.
 

DBT85

Member
A friend of mine has graduated from uni and is now working in a starbucks as a management trainee because she has to do a a year in a store first, shall I tell her what she is doing is morally wrong?

Is she paying income tax and NI?
 

winstano

Member
A friend of mine has graduated from uni and is now working in a starbucks as a management trainee because she has to do a a year in a store first, shall I tell her what she is doing is morally wrong?

No, because there's a huge difference between the people that work in the stores serving coffee and those at the top working out how to avoid the taxes. Only the biggest morons would say "OH ANYONE WORKING AT STARBUCKS IS A CRIMINAL", because at the end of the day, people need to work. It's just a shame that those who are at the bottom of the scale will face higher taxes than the bosses and corporations they are working for.

The more money a company has, the better lawyers they can get to work out more loopholes, the more tax they avoid. The rich get richer etc.
 

Dead Man

Member
I wonder how many people were employed by the Tea shops that the UK had before all the coffee chains opened up?

There is a whole industry here now and i'm sure it's a much bigger benefit to the economy that what we had before, employs a lot more people and will ultimately will pay a whole world more in tax.

You think that little locally owned cafe down the road declares all its income on its tax and VAT returns? You think it declares all its employees and doesn't have a couple being paid cash in hand?

At least the big companies fill in their forms properly even if you dont like the fact they pay the taxes inline with the way the law is set out for them.

A friend of mine has graduated from uni and is now working in a starbucks as a management trainee because she has to do a a year in a store first, shall I tell her what she is doing is morally wrong?

So there were no jobs before there were coffee shops? WHAT?
 

nib95

Banned
I wonder how many people were employed by the Tea shops that the UK had before all the coffee chains opened up?

There is a whole industry here now and i'm sure it's a much bigger benefit to the economy that what we had before, employs a lot more people and will ultimately will pay a whole world more in tax.

You think that little locally owned cafe down the road declares all its income on its tax and VAT returns? You think it declares all its employees and doesn't have a couple being paid cash in hand?

At least the big companies fill in their forms properly even if you dont like the fact they pay the taxes inline with the way the law is set out for them.

A friend of mine has graduated from uni and is now working in a starbucks as a management trainee because she has to do a a year in a store first, shall I tell her what she is doing is morally wrong?

Of course small businesses do those things, but the gains, or should I say avoided tax responsibilities, still pale in comparison to the amounts these reports are showing these big companies have been paying. You claim "a world more in taxes" and "fill in their forms properly" but clearly that's bullshit. Since they pay hardly any taxes, and the percentages are miniscule in comparison to the amounts small businesses pay even after the scams you speak of. Which by the way get chased up, investigated and fined by inland revenue routinely.

Personally I'd rather there be 300 local cafes that pay a semi reduced tax rate to 350 franchised or big company cafes that pay a stupendously tiny amount of taxes. Those other 50 store locations will be snapped up by some other company or business anyhow.
 

numble

Member
Are we sure about that? What's the tax rate? 20%? And Starbucks have around 700 stores in the UK, each with an average of 4 employees. That's 2,800 people. Assuming they all get paid 20K, that's £56m potentially input into our economy. But they made a profit of around £1b. If the tax rate is 20%, that's a potential £200m that they owed the nation.

Am I doing this right
They didn't make a profit of 1 billion. Revenue is not profit. Tax is on profit.

If I spend 100 to make and sell something for 110, I get revenue of 110, but only profit of 10.
If I spend 1 and make and sell something for 11, I get revenue of 11, but profit of 10.
 

Suairyu

Banned
I wonder how many people were employed by the Tea shops that the UK had before all the coffee chains opened up?

There is a whole industry here now and i'm sure it's a much bigger benefit to the economy that what we had before, employs a lot more people and will ultimately will pay a whole world more in tax.

You think that little locally owned cafe down the road declares all its income on its tax and VAT returns? You think it declares all its employees and doesn't have a couple being paid cash in hand?

At least the big companies fill in their forms properly even if you dont like the fact they pay the taxes inline with the way the law is set out for them.

A friend of mine has graduated from uni and is now working in a starbucks as a management trainee because she has to do a a year in a store first, shall I tell her what she is doing is morally wrong?
The tax system is built to expect small businesses hiding some of the money. The taxman, while a knob, also understands smaller businesses have to fiddle the figures sometimes to stay afloat.
 
They didn't make a profit of 1 billion. Revenue is not profit. Tax is on profit.

If I spend 100 to make and sell something for 110, I get revenue of 110, but only profit of 10.
If I spend 1 and make and sell something for 11, I get revenue of 11, but profit of 10.

I know what revenue is. I just read the OP as profit
 
Personally I'd rather there be 300 local cafes that pay a semi reduced tax rate to 350 franchised or big company cafes that pay a stupendously tiny amount of taxes. Those other 50 store locations will be snapped up by some other company or business anyhow.

The idea of the government manipulating the market to pick winners and losers doesn't sound like it'll end well. In fact, it's precisely those kinds of clauses and exceptions that mean our tax code is 11,520 pages long, and it is this complexity that accountants "exploit" to save companies tax.

Why not vastly simplify the tax system to stop businesses being able to abuse loopholes, then let the customers decide who wins and who loses?
 

nib95

Banned
The idea of the government manipulating the market to pick winners and losers doesn't sound like it'll end well. In fact, it's precisely those kinds of clauses and exceptions that mean our tax code is 11,520 pages long, and it is this complexity that accountants "exploit" to save companies tax.

Why not vastly simplify the tax system to stop businesses being able to abuse loopholes, then let the customers decide who wins and who loses?

I'm advocating removing these loopholes. Obviously the less loopholes the better, though I'd say now because of the loopholes these larger companies have enjoyed, it puts smaller businesses at a massive disadvantage and I do believe this should be considered.

Having said that, loopholes will always exist and I think it's naive to think otherwise. Even if the system is simplified, the corporations will find a way. That's why I think far more effort needs to be taken to investigate and impose at the top instead of what currently exists today, which is investigations and fines routinely on the lower and middle ends of the scale instead.
 
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