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[Cauliflower of Love]

Typically, those maps made Jewish settlements and outposts look tiny compared to the areas where the Palestinians lived. The new map in the briefing book was different. It showed large swaths of territory that were off limits to Palestinian development and filled in space between the settlements and the outposts. At that moment, Lowenstein told me, he saw “the forest for the trees”—not only were Palestinian population centers cut off from one another but there was virtually no way to squeeze a viable Palestinian state into the areas that remained. Lowenstein’s team did the math. When the settlement zones, the illegal outposts, and the other areas off limits to Palestinian development were consolidated, they covered almost sixty per cent of the West Bank.

Kerry met regularly with Obama in the Oval Office. During one of those meetings, Kerry placed the maps on a large coffee table, one after another, so Obama and his advisers could study them. Ben Rhodes, one of Obama's longest-serving advisers, said the President was shocked to see how “systematic” the Israelis had been at cutting off Palestinian population centers from one another.

Later, Kerry presented some of the maps to Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian President. Kerry’s goal was to show Abbas that the Obama Administration understood the extent to which the two-state solution was threatened. Abbas was taken aback. Instead of feeling reassured, he told a confidant that the maps convinced him that the Americans believed “the chances of a viable Palestinian state is next to nil.” Abbas was taken aback. Instead of feeling reassured, he told a confidant that the maps convinced him that the Americans believed “the chances of a viable Palestinian state is next to nil.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...hat-shocked-barack-obama?mbid=social_facebook

 

[Thetinman]

People needed a map to know this? The Israelis government were never looking for a two state solution it was always all of nothing and just a little more. And the Palestinian government had nothing but crooks and thieves with no real reason to want a real home land or get back what was theirs they thought they'd play the long game.

 

[JordanN]

I was thinking about the Israel-Palestinian conflict the other day, and I believe the biggest missed opportunity was Israel should have created a Palestinian state in the Sinai when they still controlled it.

Yeah, it would have sucked for the Palestinians to lose their homes they had in Gaza and the West Bank, but a Palestinian state that was trying to claim Jerusalem as its capital was always a lost cause. Both the 1948 and Six Day War showed the Arabs were outmatched in every way, Israel just wasn't going away.

They should have just taken the loss and go with my idea, and just turn the Sinai into the new Palestinian homeland.

 

[cryptoadam]

Oh well should of accepted 1937 peel commision plan, 1947 UN partition, 1949-1967 when land was controlled by Jordan, or protested Jordan stripping WB Arabs of their citizenship in 1988, accepted Olmert/Barak offers.

Remember the Palestinians themselves said

This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area.

But homes are just bricks and concrete, they can be torn down and people moved. Israel removed all settlers/settlements in Gaza and Sinai.

 

[cryptoadam]

I was thinking about the Israel-Palestinian conflict the other day, and I believe the biggest missed opportunity was Israel should have created a Palestinian state in the Sinai when they still controlled it.

Yeah, it would have sucked for the Palestinians to lose their homes they had in Gaza and the West Bank, but a Palestinian state that was always trying to claim Jerusalem as its capital was always a lose cause. Both the 1948 and Six Day War showed the Arabs were outmatched in every way.

They should have just taken the loss and go with my idea, and just turn the Sinai into the Palestinian homeland.

I agree, or they should of negotiated to keep Area C and the Jordan valley and given back the rest of the WB to Jordan when they made peace with Jordan in 94 (talking about Israel).

 

[Corderlain]

Palestine is a terrorist state and should not be helped in any capacity. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with the US or the EU and neither should be doing anything about the matter.

 

[llien]

The map from OP:

 

[Harksteed]

Palestine is a terrorist state and should not be helped in any capacity. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with the US or the EU and neither should be doing anything about the matter.

lol

 

[Death Dealer]

They should have just taken the loss and go with my idea, and just turn the Sinai into the new Palestinian homeland.

I like the 3 state solution. Israel, Egypt, Jordan. Give Gaza back to Egypt. Give the West Bank back to Jordan. Palestinian statehood is not realistic.

 

[luigimario]

IDF to the rescue! Didn't take long for Cryptoadam to come running in don his apologist hat.

 

[cryptoadam]

I like the 3 state solution. Israel, Egypt, Jordan. Give Gaza back to Egypt. Give the West Bank back to Jordan. Palestinian statehood is not realistic.

I saw someone mention another 2 state solution and I like it. 2 Jewish states. Israel with West Jerusalem as its capital, and Judea in the WB and East Jerusalem as the capital.

Arabs in WB would become citizens of Judea.

Looking at the Palestinians, and the wider Arab world I don't think its controversial to say that sound open progressive and democratic governance are not things that are likely to happen.

Judea would be a bit like Lebanon with a power sharing agreement.

 

[cryptoadam]

IDF to the rescue! Didn't take long for Cryptoadam to come running in don his apologist hat.

I know I am doing a good job when I piss off people who are anti-Israel.

 

[michaelius]

The map from OP:

I'm pretty sure people there can count too so they won't ever accept single state solution just to wake up with Hamas goverment next day after elections.

 

[HoodWinked]

There was a point that seemed a reasonable compromise but that didnt last long

 

[Death Dealer]

Judea would be a bit like Lebanon with a power sharing agreement.

I could see that working, although I don't know if the Arab residents of the West Bank would agree to it.

 

[take_it_easy]

I really don't see how this ends any other way than israel consuming the west bank.

 

[cryptoadam]

I could see that working, although I don't know if the Arab residents of the West Bank would agree to it.

I think if you got rid of the PA you might have a chance. Even the Palestinans themselves in poll after poll have said they don't trust the PA and went them gone. Remove PA and other terrorist groups and deal with the local heads of clans/families.

3rd option should be for them to regain their Jordanian passports that were stripped from them in 1988 and give Palestinians in both the east bank and the west bank the same rights and they can decide if they want to be ruled by the Hashemites from Saudi or not.

 

[Jon Neu]

Israel is a terrorist state and should not be helped in any capacity. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with the US or the EU and neither should be doing anything about the matter.

Fixed.

 

[luigimario]

I really don't see how this ends any other way than israel consuming the west bank.

Well that was the plan from the beginning.....

 

[womfalcs3]

Palestine is a terrorist state and should not be helped in any capacity. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with the US or the EU and neither should be doing anything about the matter.

At least you recognize Palestine as a sovereign state.

 

[Makariel]

I remember seeing a few maps like that in the Economist some time ago. However, the maps there were making a few more distinctions between Israeli, Palestine and occupied lands, as well as contrasting them with maps of natural resources and land usable for the primary sector, which is a dimension that the maps above don't quite get across. Sadly I can't remember what issue it was and I just threw out a whole stack of papers the other week.

 

[Ka-Kui]

It's a tragedy that Israel has been allowed to get away with this.

Western nations simply don't care because the propaganda that Arabs/Muslims are inherently evil has been too successful - to the point that it appears to be a good thing that an entire people have lost their land and autonomy.

It's either they conform to western ideals or they perish.

 

[Catphish]

It's a tragedy that Israel has been allowed to get away with this.

Western nations simply don't care because the propaganda that Arabs/Muslims are inherently evil has been too successful

That, and nobody wants to deal with the deluge of anti-Semitism accusations unleashed at the first public criticism of Israel.

 

[cryptoadam]

It's a tragedy that Israel has been allowed to get away with this.

Western nations simply don't care because the propaganda that Arabs/Muslims are inherently evil has been too successful - to the point that it appears to be a good thing that an entire people have lost their land and autonomy.

It's either they conform to western ideals or they perish.

But Arabs never had autonomy in the area of Palestine until Israel signed the Oslo accords and allowed the Palestinians to govern themselves under the PA for the first time in history.

The Arabs of Palestine didn't have autonomy under the Ottomans, or under the British or under the Jordanians.

 

[Typical]

The only viable solution is for Iran to develop nukes. Israel is a disgrace of a “nation” and Palestinians have suffered long enough under Nazi like condition.

 

[bucyou]

The only viable solution is for Iran to develop nukes. Israel is a disgrace of a “nation” and Palestinians have suffered long enough under Nazi like condition.

So pretty much Iran needs to nuke Israel?


How idiotic.

 

[cryptoadam]

The only viable solution is for Iran to develop nukes. Israel is a disgrace of a “nation” and Palestinians have suffered long enough under Nazi like condition.

so your solution is for Iran to nuke Israel? Even the Iranian people are fed up with the Mullahs and their obsession with Palestine, thats why they were chanting "Death to Palestine" at a recent rally.

Nazi like conditions? Its the Palestinians that fly the Swatsika, praise Hitler, talk about burning the Jews, and actually colaborated with the Nazi during WW2.

 

[Death Dealer]

I think if you got rid of the PA you might have a chance. Even the Palestinans themselves in poll after poll have said they don't trust the PA and went them gone. Remove PA and other terrorist groups and deal with the local heads of clans/families.

I've read one of the main reasons the PA is actually against a lasting peace settlement is be ause once they're replaced with a legitimate government, all of the PA's corruption and graft will be out in the daylight and the PA leaders could face severe punishment from their own people.

Corruption in Palestine: A Self-Enforcing System
https://al-shabaka.org/briefs/corruption-in-palestine/

 

[Unknown Quantity]

so your solution is for Iran to nuke Israel? Even the Iranian people are fed up with the Mullahs and their obsession with Palestine, thats why they were chanting "Death to Palestine" at a recent rally.

Nazi like conditions? Its the Palestinians that fly the Swatsika, praise Hitler, talk about burning the Jews, and actually colaborated with the Nazi during WW2.

So the right to return to their ancestral land is not a good enough reason either, isn't that why they've been protesting?

We'll steal your land, systematically discriminate against you, mass genocide, and any criticism = anti-Semitism from semites.

That 3000 year old declaration from God can't be disputed can it.

The script is getting a little boring, looks like you're getting your supremacist Jewish State.

 

[Corderlain]

It's not a right lmfao
They got conquered too bad so sad. Either join or leave and come back to fight for the land. This has been simple since the beginning of time.

 

[Unknown Quantity]

So conquering a country or half a continent and commiting mass genocide against people of a certain race or religion means you won?

Then you get to keep their land and valuables, right?

Grow up brah

 

[cryptoadam]

I've read one of the main reasons the PA is actually against a lasting peace settlement is be ause once they're replaced with a legitimate government, all of the PA's corruption and graft will be out in the daylight and the PA leaders could face severe punishment from their own people.

Corruption in Palestine: A Self-Enforcing System
https://al-shabaka.org/briefs/corruption-in-palestine/

Well Abbas does live in a multi million dollar Villa. He bought a 10 Million dollar private Jet a few months ago. His sons are some of the richest Palestinians, and their company has its tentacles in all of the Palestinian economy. Suha Arafat lives on millions of dollars a month in Paris and even the French at one point opened an investigation into her funds.

Palestinians want Abbas gone

Some 79 per cent of those polled, meanwhile, demanded “that the PA immediately lift all the measures taken against the Gaza Strip, such as public sector’s salary deductions and the reduction in access to electricity”, with just 17 per cent saying such measures should be removed “only after Hamas fully hands over control over the Strip to the reconciliation government”.

As for Abbas himself, 61 per cent of the public want him to resign while 33 per cent want him to remain in office. With respect to the succession, 60 per cent said that “in the case of Abbas’ absence, the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, Aziz Duwaik from Hamas, must become president for two months in implementation of the Basic Law”. Some 29 per cent opposed this.

61% want him gone. 79% want him to help people in Gaza. There are other polls out there showing that anyone but Abbas would be elected if the PA ever held elections.

https://www.cfr.org/blog/corruption-palestinian-authority

The rule of law is weak both because the parliament never meets to pass laws and due to executive interference: “the judiciary and the prosecution in the West Bank and Gaza Strip continue to lack independence.”


Government jobs, which are prized due to the weak private economy, are awarded on the basis of cronyism rather than merit: “Appointments at higher posts continued without transparency or fair competition, in disregard for the principle of equal opportunity. No job announcements were published in the newspapers, nor were there any competitions over appointments.”

Moneys are spent on non-existent entities, and here’s the best example: “salaries and raises were paid to employees of an airline company that no longer exists on the ground.” That is Palestine Airlines, about which the report says this: “The Palestinian treasury paid salaries to hundreds of employees in the ‘Palestinian Airlines’, which is a governmental company that has a board of directors, headed by the Minister of Transportation. This ‘company’ is not registered as a company in accordance with the law, nor does it have a governing law of its own, although the decree by which it was established goes back to 1994….The budget for this ‘company’ is included in the budget of the Ministry of Transport and Transportation with no details.” A non-existent airline—whose employees were not only paid salaries but given raises.


Finally, there is the case of the Presidential Palace (pictured above). This giant edifice—50,000 square feet for the Palace itself plus another 40,000 in other buildings—cost the bankrupt Palestinian Authority $17.5 million. The public uproar forced President Mahmoud Abbas to convert the edifice into a public library. As the report states, “Honorable as it may sound to convert the presidential palace into a public library, it remains to be the epitome of misuse of public funds as well as a bad example of lack of prioritization.”

And this is not even discussin pay to slay that the Palestinians are fighting tooth and nail over and would rather see people starving in the streets then change.

 

[cryptoadam]

So the right to return to their ancestral land is not a good enough reason either, isn't that why they've been protesting?

There isn't a right to return. Indian and Pakistanians aren't going back either. 90% of Palestinians alive today never stepped foot into "Palestine" and the majority of them are in "Palestine" in the WB and Gaza. There isn't anywhere to return to.

And the Iranians aren't protesting for right of return, they are protesting against their crappy governement because their currency is near worthless and they are running out of water. And regular day to day Iranians are sick of the Mullahs and their wars and endless support of terrorist when the Iranian people are the ones in need.

We'll steal your land, systematically discriminate against you, mass genocide, and any criticism = anti-Semitism from semites.

No land was stolen and there is no genocide. Calling it a genocide is anti-semtisim because its a lie. Less people have died in the Arab-Israel conflict than Assad has killed, or that Iran killed in the Iraq-Iran war, and probably whats going in Yemen. Jews came to the land and PURCHASED the land at very high prices. The Arabs attacked and lost a war thats life, instead of attacking they should of accepted 37 or 47 partition.

That 3000 year old declaration from God can't be disputed can it.

God schomd. 3000 years of history can't be disputed. Even today they are finding more and more archelogical artifacts from ancient Israel. I know that the WAQF authorties do their best to try and destroy all historical evedince but they can't destroy it all.

The script is getting a little boring, looks like you're getting your supremacist Jewish State.

Supremacist Jewish state with 20% non jewish population LOL. Stop trying to paint jews as white supremacist it is the weakest of the lefts new attacks on Jews. Hitler would be rolling in his grave if he heard that Jews are whites now. Meanwhile how many Jews in Palestine? How many non muslims with its dwindling christian population?

As of 2015, Palestinian Christians comprise approximately 1–2.5% of the population of the West Bank, and less than 1% in the Gaza Strip

Who has the supremacist state ?

Palestine has a law against selling land to Jews. And quite timely since the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem just issued a Fatwa in regards to the sale of land to Jews.

Selling land to Jews is now the worst crime in Islam

The Arab hating Jews and Bibi just spend 500 Million on the Arab sector of East Jerusalem. Have spent 100's of Millions more under Bennet to close the gaps between Arab and Jewish society. But keep spouting your nonsense.

 

[Jon Neu]

But Arabs never had autonomy in the area of Palestine until Israel signed the Oslo accords and allowed the Palestinians to govern themselves under the PA for the first time in history.

The Arabs of Palestine didn't have autonomy under the Ottomans, or under the British or under the Jordanians.

It's funny how the way you worded it, implying that the Palestinians should be thankful to Israel for stealing their land and kill them because they signed and accord to allow some kind of autonomy to Palestine.

 

[Jon Neu]

There isn't a right to return.

You should have said that to the millions of jews that "returned" to Palestine in a wave of illegal immigration.

Jews came to the land and PURCHASED the land at very high prices. The Arabs attacked and lost a war thats life, instead of attacking they should of accepted 37 or 47 partition.

Jews went ILLEGALLY to the land. And they went there with the only intention of stealing Palestine from the palestinians, that's why they were so heavily armed. It was literally an invasion. Palestinians did what other people would have done if a wave of illegal immigrants suddenly say their country is theirs now: defend themselves.

Supremacist Jewish state with 20% non jewish population LOL. Stop trying to paint jews as white supremacist it is the weakest of the lefts new attacks on Jews. Hitler would be rolling in his grave if he heard that Jews are whites now. Meanwhile how many Jews in Palestine? How many non muslims with its dwindling christian population?

As of 2015, Palestinian Christians comprise approximately 1–2.5% of the population of the West Bank, and less than 1% in the Gaza Strip

Who has the supremacist state ?

Yeah, how we can call supremacist a state created under the premise that Israel is the choosen people and therefore have the godly right to steal the land of the Palestinians/Canaanites because they made up God said so. Not supremacist at all.

And treating the palestinians the way they are treating them is also not supremacist at all. Hitler would be proud.

How many jews in Palestine? Well, Palestine is a third world country with areas where there are not even sanitized water. I wonder how is possible than jews prefer to be in the rich Israel they made on the backs and dead bodies of the oppresed and poor Palestine, instead of living drinking polluted water. Truly a mistery.

 

[Corderlain]

So conquering a country or half a continent and commiting mass genocide against people of a certain race or religion means you won?

Then you get to keep their land and valuables, right?

Grow up brah

That's how it's worked since the beginning of time you fart. You kill people you take their shit and lived where they lived. You are a product of millions of years of this.

 

[Death Dealer]

You should have said that to the millions of jews that "returned" to Palestine in a wave of illegal immigration.

Jews went ILLEGALLY to the land.

The United Nations created Israel. The area of Palestine used to be part of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire launched an offensive attack against Russia during WW1. And they lost. So that's how it goes.

 

[Jon Neu]

That's how it's worked since the beginning of time you fart. You kill people you take their shit and lived where they lived. You are a product of millions of years of this.

I guess you have the same approach to what Hitler did, then.

The United Nations created Israel. The area of Palestine used to be part of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire launched an offensive attack against Russia during WW1. And they lost. So that's how it goes.

The United Nations, the UK and the USA helped Israel defile Palestine and stole it while arming the jews, letting them migrate there illegally and looking away while they were killing arabs (just like they do now).

It was totally their fault.

 

[Jon Neu]

And by the way, Obama was so shocked about the israeli settlements that he did nothing about it.

 

[Corderlain]

We have a Goodwin's law everybody.

 

[Darkking2001]

That's how it's worked since the beginning of time you fart. You kill people you take their shit and lived where they lived. You are a product of millions of years of this.

Fundamentally wrong. Most wars were not genocides that is so far wrong its pathetic only the really disgusting wars were like that.

Also keep in mind we don't do this shit anymore cause of how fucked up it is

 

[King of Foxes]

The whole thing is a mess, its a choice between a shit sandwich or a shit taco, I guess the lesser of two evils is the best option. The Jews are not running people over in Europe so I guess i'm more okay with their actions.

 

[luigimario]

The whole thing is a mess, its a choice between a shit sandwich or a shit taco, I guess the lesser of two evils is the best option. The Jews are not running people over in Europe so I guess i'm more okay with their actions.

Hahahaha probably the most absurd comment I've read on here. That's like me saying "I don't mind that the isreali lobby practically controls western politics, media. wealth........well practically the whole western hemisphere, allowing for mass migration into the western world because it's western christians that kill muslim children with drones". Absurd!

Jews don't drive lorries, but they will bomb hotels. One example comes to mind, of the Kind David Hotel bombing, done by jewish terrorists, an attack against the ruling British, and left 150 people dead or injured. Decades later, it is still celebrated in Isreal. The attack was praised by Netanyahu and his Likud government. Gives you an idea of the Isreali mind set.....

 

[O-N-E]

Fundamentally wrong. Most wars were not genocides that is so far wrong its pathetic only the really disgusting wars were like that.

Also keep in mind we don't do this shit anymore cause of how fucked up it is

There's that insane narrative again. What genocide? By what criteria? The population of Arabs between the Jordan River and Mediterranean sea has been steadily climbing through all these years, nearly matching the Jewish population and projected to outpace it in the coming years. Globally they've risen from 1948's 1.4 million to 11 million (likely more, as that statistic is from 2012).

Which category of genocide is that? Do you really think the evil Jews who, as luigimario has mentioned above, control the Western world's politics, media and wealth would be so incompetent as to allow those numbers to flip?

1939, the global Jewish population is estimated to have been around 17 million. In 1945, 11 million. That's a real, earnest attempt at genocide.

 

[King of Foxes]

Hahahaha probably the most absurd comment I've read on here. That's like me saying "I don't mind that the isreali lobby practically controls western politics, media. wealth........well practically the whole western hemisphere, allowing for mass migration into the western world because it's western christians that kill muslim children with drones". Absurd!

Jews don't drive lorries, but they will bomb hotels. One example comes to mind, of the Kind David Hotel bombing, done by jewish terrorists, an attack against the ruling British, and left 150 people dead or injured. Decades later, it is still celebrated in Isreal. The attack was praised by Netanyahu and his Likud government. Gives you an idea of the Isreali mind set.....

Oh you're one of those people? A jews run the world and are behind everything believer?

 

[luigimario]

Oh you're one of those people? A jews run the world and are behind everything believer?

Hahaha Ah I was making a statement as absurd as the one you made. I literally say that in the post you quote but, hey, English comprehension isn't easy.....

 

[Corderlain]

Fundamentally wrong. Most wars were not genocides that is so far wrong its pathetic only the really disgusting wars were like that.

Also keep in mind we don't do this shit anymore cause of how fucked up it is

Oh boy here we go with the feels.

No it's not fundamentally wrong. This is quite literally how the world has fucking worked since the beginning. There is no genocide this is a massive lie. This shit is happening all the time still. Stop pretending.

 

[Darkking2001]

No it isn't buddy most wars were over resources, you take over more land and subjugate the people as it's usually a pain in the ass to replace them.
It's when you have a massive power gap when this kind of shit happens Jews vs Nazi's, Native Americans vs Colonist

O-N-E
Keep in mind I don't think it's reach that staged yet, I'm just responding to someone who thinks "most" wars were basically genocides and thats how humans are and we should be content with that shit type of behavior.

 

[Corderlain]

Myanmar and the Rhodigan Muslims.

 

[Darkking2001]

Yes I know of that and its fucked up and shouldn't have happened....now what?
You can keep going listing most wars being like that
Spoliler aleart your probably gonna get like 200 - 300 events like this meanwhile I'm gonna dread having to post about like 10000+ conflicts nothing like that