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[Dr.Guru of Peru]

I don't support Trump at all, but..

I am actually OK with sending the bill every time someone gets deported to Mexico. Not just there though -- every country that gets someone that was deported should pay the costs. The whole wall thing is pretty bullshit though. Mexico or any other country shouldn't have to build anything, but paying the cost of deportation seems fair to me.



This, too.

...why?

 

[Lonely1]

So I ask again: Did you even RTFA (hell, even the OP would suffice) or are you just making stuff up at this point? Because it doesn't involve Mexico's congress doing anything.

Yes, it involves rising tariffs of Mexican travelers. But how many CEO's and Mexican politicians traveling to the USA would take to cover that multibillionaire project? And he has no way to enforce Mexico to pay for deportations, that's pure insanity.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Yes, it involves rising tariffs of Mexican travelers. But how many CEO's and Mexican politicians traveling to the USA would take to cover that multibillionaire project? And he has no way to enforce Mexico to pay for deportations, that's pure insanity.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform

Can you point me to the sentence at the above link where he says Mexican government will pay the cost of deportations?

 

[pcostabel]

Someone Photoshop Donald face on this:

 

[Lonely1]

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform

Can you point me to the sentence at the above link where he says Mexican government will pay the cost of deportations?

So, how many Mexican CEOs and diplomats traveling will it take to cover the costs of the wall?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform

Can you point me to the sentence at the above link where he says Mexican government will pay the cost of deportations?

White men deciding that they want to spend $500 billion deporting American children and thinking that it's going to be easy to drill for oil in a war zone surrounded by ISIS make me fear for my country.

 

[cpp_is_king]

So, how many Mexican CEOs and diplomats traveling will it take to cover the costs of the wall?

the United States will,

(1) among other things:

(2) impound all remittance payments derived from illegal wages;

increase fees on all temporary visas issued to Mexican CEOs and diplomats (and if necessary cancel them);

(3) increase fees on all border crossing cards – of which we issue about 1 million to Mexican nationals each year (a major source of visa overstays);

(4) increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico (another major source of overstays);

(5) and increase fees at ports of entry to the United States from Mexico [Tariffs and foreign aid cuts are also options].

I think you're forgetting about 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Who knows how long it will take? 10 years? 50? Doesn't matter. The point is it gets paid for.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think, at the least, almost everyone can see how "make Mexico buy that shit" is going to appeal to the GOP base.

 

[spock]

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform

Can you point me to the sentence at the above link where he says Mexican government will pay the cost of deportations?

You've made some great points by the way. However most of those trying to debate you are looking for how things cant be done and/or projecting their bias/beliefs/wants/etc. There's also this view/tone that its a bad thing to put all actual American citizens first in regards to jobs, health, etc. For those who want more social systems and programs for Americans the first step is minimizing and maximizing things for American citizens in all systems (trade, immigration, jobs, etc.) that run this country. Addressing what are basically international related leaks that are to the detriment of Americans makes the most sense as a starting point. Improve things here first then start working on how that relates to everyone else.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Article 30

Mexican nationality is acquired by birth or by naturalization.

A. The Mexican nationals by birth are:

I. Those born in the Mexican territory, regardless of their parents’ nationality;

II. Those born in a foreign country of Mexican parents born in national territory, of Mexican father born in national territory, or of Mexican mother born in national territory;

III. Those born in a foreign country of Mexican parents by naturalization, of Mexican father by naturalization, or of Mexican mother by naturalization; and

IV. Those born on board of Mexican military or merchant vessels or aircrafts.


B. The Mexicans by naturalization are:

I. Those aliens who obtain from the Department of Foreign Affairs a naturalization card.

II. Any foreign woman or man who marries a Mexican man or woman and establishes residence inside the Mexican territory, provided that foreigner complies with the other requirements set forth by the law for that purpose.

Oh, and to enjoy full citizenship with rights and obligations

Article 34

Mexican citizens shall be those individuals who are considered as Mexicans and fulfill the following conditions:

I. To be at least 18 years old, and

II. To have an honest way of life.

SAUCE; http://www.trife.gob.mx/en/consultations/political-constitution-united-mexican-states

Thanks for the information!

 

[Armaros]

I think you're forgetting about 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Who knows how long it will take? 10 years? 50? Doesn't matter. The point is it gets paid for.

So this is "closing tax loopholes will pay for billions of dollars of tax cuts" level of budgeting correct?

The fact that people actually believe his proposals are possible and good AND logical make me fear for this country.

You know stuff like Visa costs and Foreign aid is a pittance correct? The majority of that stuff wont even pay for the guards, much less building the damned wall itself. And you will utterly break the system if you overcharge for these things, have fun destroying all border economies.

 

[sangreal]

So, how many Mexican CEOs and diplomats traveling will it take to cover the costs of the wall?

That still isn't all it says...

 

[Lonely1]

I think you're forgetting about 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Who knows how long it will take? 10 years? 50? Doesn't matter. The point is it gets paid for.

(2) impound all remittance payments derived from illegal wages;

The moment those payments start to be impounded they will stop to be sent.

(3)Increase fees on all border crossing cards – of which we issue about 1 million to Mexican nationals each year (a major source of visa overstays)

I had to pay about $100 for a 10 year visa, which is supposed to cover the background check and processing fees. For how much does he intends to increase the cost? Keep in mind that Mexicans that meet the requirement for a Visa are a limited resource and can only pay so much.

(4) increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico (another major source of overstay)

The moment it stops being cost effective, the visas will stop, as those are mostly payed by the employer.

(5) and increase fees at ports of entry to the United States from Mexico [Tariffs and foreign aid cuts are also options].

Same as (3).

Unless you start charging unreasonable costs, is unlikely that (5) and (3) will even cover the maintenance of the wall... (2) is just a crackpot dream. And that isn't counting the damage to the USA economy from decreased business from Mexico...

 

[gutter_trash]

Thanks for the information!

so Mitt Romney can become Mexican if he wanted to

 

[Mael]

And as you point out, Germany and India had it. They both mostly abolished it. And the other countries that have it restricted are so restricted that it's hardly true jus soli. Look at France, for example.



Australia still has relatively strong jus soli, but then I'd argue they qualify as a "new world" country anyway

Regardless, as the examples you pointed out show, I think the end-game for most countries is to eliminate it.

I'll trust wiki on this one:

En France, le droit de la nationalité est régi par le code civil depuis 18031.

Le principe d'attribution de la nationalité française (celle que l'on obtient à la naissance) depuis la loi de 18892, ce que Patrick Weil appelle l' « usage républicain »3, est le double droit du sol : est français celui ou celle qui est né sur un territoire français dont un parent est également né sur un territoire français4. De plus, l'enfant d'un français est français, quel que soit son lieu de naissance (droit du sang).

Toutefois, un enfant né et ayant vécu au moins cinq ans en France peut devenir français à sa majorité s'il a sa résidence en France5. Cette reconnaissance de nationalité française a été subordonnée de 1993 à 1998, date d'application des lois Pasqua-Debré à une demande préalable, elle est désormais automatique, (sauf refus par l'intéressé6), ou à partir de l'âge de 13 ans si ses parents en font la demande et si l'enfant réside en France depuis l'âge de huit ans7,6.

Le double droit du sol s'appliquait jusqu'en 1993 aux enfants d'une personne née dans une ancienne colonie française. Depuis 1993, seuls les enfants de parents nés en Algérie avant 1962 (alors département français et non une colonie) sont concernés8,9.

A child who has been born in France and have lived for at least 5 years can become citizen if he asks for it when he's 18.
It's automatic unless the child makes a demand to not be a citizen.
At the age of 13, the parents can make the demand si the child reside in France since he's 7.
You get the idea, it's not hard to get the citizenship if you've been born in France and the word I hear is that even if you file is rather fraudulent you get it anyway.

 

[Metroxed]

Come on, Trump, not like this.

Forcing Mexico to pay for the wall is ridiculous. I don't know if the USA can modify their constitution but ending citizenship for children born from illegal immigrants is reasonable imo. I don't know any other country who gives citizenship just because children was born there.

Basically all countries in the Americas do:

Dark blue means everyone born inside the country gets the citizenship as a birthright (Jus soli), blue means people born inside the country could get the citizenship but there are limitations and/or restrictions (limited Jus soli, not everyone gets it) and grey areas do not give citizenship by just being born inside the countries, but rather by being born out of citizens (Jus sanguinis)

 

[EatinOlives]

Let's build a 1900 mile wall and send the bill to another country! Details? Who cares, whatever the bill ends up being, we can wait for 50+ years on payments via random fees.

Also, I'm sure if we all look in between our couch cushions we can eventually pay for this wall if we do it for long enough. We can fulfill our dream of kicking impoverished people out of our clearly superior country if we come together and believe in our dreams! USA! USA!

 

[Dai101]

so Mitt Romney can become Mexican if he wanted to

Sure. He still can't hold any public office charge.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

For some reason it always makes me smile when people refer to foreigners as "aliens". It makes every sentence look like it came out of a Sci-Fi book.

 

[Walpurgis]

(2) impound all remittance payments derived from illegal wages;

Am I reading this right? Is he proposing to steal money from migrant workers? Or is he talking about taking money from their employers?

 

[Lonely1]

Am I reading this right? Is he proposing to steal money from migrant workers? Or is he talking about taking money from their employers?

He should propose instead to impound all narco assets within the USA. That actually has the potential to pay for the wall and is probably more legally feasible.

But that's not the point, the point is to stick it to Mexico. Is either that or he doesn't have idea of the situation of legal immigration to the USA, since most people crossing the border illegally aren't from Mexico.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

538 describes some of the ways describing on inaccurate this plan is before getting into the absurd costs involved.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...mmigration-plan-gets-wrong/?ex_cid=538twitter

On the same day that Scott Walker says he supports and has the same plan.

 

[Suikoguy]

538 describes some of the ways describing on inaccurate this plan is before getting into the absurd costs involved.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...mmigration-plan-gets-wrong/?ex_cid=538twitter

On the same day that Scott Walker says he supports and has the same plan.

Walker planning on putting his support behind Trump?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Walker planning on putting his support behind Trump?

No, he's trying to steal back Trump's voters by arguing that he hates immigrants just as much as Trump does.

 

[Dai101]

He should propose instead to impound all narco assets within the USA. That actually has the potential to pay for the wall and is probably more legally feasible.

That would lead to a lot of wall street banks to lose a shit load of money. Which means it will never happens.

 

[HylianTom]

Yes, Donald.. drag them all rightward with you. Make them commit to "self-deportation"-like comments..

 

[Theonik]

Because voters without a firm grasp on facts and a deep distrust of immigrants will vote for him.

It was a rhetoric question. It is pretty obvious who he's pandering to.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Do you guys even realize that the majority of illegal immigrants are not Mexican?

 

[Link]

Basically all countries in the Americas do:

Dark blue means everyone born inside the country gets the citizenship as a birthright (Jus soli), blue means people born inside the country could get the citizenship but there are limitations and/or restrictions (limited Jus soli, not everyone gets it) and grey areas do not give citizenship by just being born inside the countries, but rather by being born out of citizens (Jus sanguinis)

I know I'd sure like to be more like those gray countries!

 

[sangreal]

Do you guys even realize that the majority of illegal immigrants are not Mexican?

I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but I was curious so I spent 2 minutes to look it up and find out you couldn't be more wrong

http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_ill_pe_2012_2.pdf

Mexico continued to be the leading source country of unauthorized
immigration to the United States (see Table 3). There were 6.7
million unauthorized immigrants from Mexico in 2012, representing
59 percent of the unauthorized population.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Lets say hes Pres and puts the Mexican government in a hard spot because hes putting pressure and restrictions on them in the ways hes outlines and perhaps moreso. What do you think they will do when they start feeling that pressure/burden?

You are gonna have to invade them and put them in chains to make them build that wall, no chance otherwise.

 

[sangreal]

You are gonna have to invade them and put them in chains to make them build that wall, no chance otherwise.

I don't think building a wall is the right solution but I am not sure why so many people are having trouble with this -- he is not suggesting Mexico will build a wall. He is proposing the US builds a wall and takes money from regular dealings (visas, trade, remittances) with Mexico to pay for it.

 

[cpp_is_king]

You are gonna have to invade them and put them in chains to make them build that wall, no chance otherwise.

Alternatively people in this thread could just read the actual proposal so they stop repeating this line over and over, since they would know what it actually says.

 

[danm999]

I don't think building a wall is the right solution but I am not sure why so many people are having trouble with this -- he is not suggesting Mexico will build a wall. He is proposing the US builds a wall and takes money from regular dealings (visas, trade, remittances) with Mexico to pay for it.

Actually the policy he is suggesting the US strong arm Mexico with tariffs, increased visa fees, threats to cuts to foreign aid etc. until they agree to pay for it.

Mexico must pay for the wall and, until they do, the United States will, among other things: impound all remittance payments derived from illegal wages; increase fees on all temporary visas issued to Mexican CEOs and diplomats (and if necessary cancel them); increase fees on all border crossing cards – of which we issue about 1 million to Mexican nationals each year (a major source of visa overstays); increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico (another major source of overstays); and increase fees at ports of entry to the United States from Mexico [Tariffs and foreign aid cuts are also options]. We will not be taken advantage of anymore.

The context there makes it obvious all those measures as a means to an end; the end being Mexico paying whatever amount it is that builds and maintains the wall.

 

[mr2xxx]

Brilliant, satisfy the crazies by creating a plan that has 0% of happenning. No one gets hurt and the Trump train continues rolling Choo choo.

 

[sangreal]

Actually the policy he is suggesting the US strong arm Mexico with tariffs, increased visa fees, threats to cuts to foreign aid etc. until they agree to pay for it.



The context there makes it obvious all those measures as a means to an end; the end being Mexico paying whatever amount it is that builds and maintains the wall.

I see it as a difference without a distinction, but fair enough. My point stands though, that he is not expecting Mexico to go and build a wall, willingly or otherwise

Brilliant, satisfy the crazies by creating a plan that has 0% of happenning. No one gets hurt and the Trump train continues rolling Choo choo.

that sums up the entire primary process

 

[danm999]

I see it as a difference without a distinction, but fair enough. My point stands though, that he is not expecting Mexico to go and build a wall, willingly or otherwise

Yes I do believe he is promising what he knows he cannot deliver.