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Very lengthy article with a lot of quotes and slides in it.

Turn-Based Battles Aren’t Dead—How Metaphor: ReFantazio Reinvents JRPG Combat

Turn-based RPGs are evolving! Metaphor: ReFantazio battle designer Kenichi Goto reveals how innovative mechanics like the Fast Battle System and Refinement System modernize the genre while keeping strategic depth intact.

noisypixel.net

“When I say ‘turn-based RPG,’ what comes to mind?” Goto-san asked, revealing how his own nephew considered some standard mechanics of the genre to be burdensome—especially when a single party member’s death could mean game over. These moments, according to Goto-san, can feel frustrating and “old-fashioned” to modern players. “We wanted to challenge that,” he stated, explaining that the team’s goal was to create a turn-based experience that didn’t rely on punishing or time-consuming design.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Turn-based is based.

I hope they don't worry too much about "worldwide fans" and just keep doing what they've been doing during the last 30 years.

 

[LordOcidax]

Turn Based games are more alive than ever…

 

[Nankatsu]

Excuse me, but where exactly did Metaphor reinvent anything? Game played the safest route possible.

 

[anyasok]

Metaphor was such a boring game for me tbh that i still havent finished it

 

[Seyken]

I really don't agree that Metaphor's battle system was a modernization of turn-based battles. It was pretty much the same system as the other Atlus' games, but now you can skip lower level enemies, that's it.

The Trails series is doing much more when it comes to "modernizing" turn based battles and those games are made on a shoestring budget.

 

[Kazdane]

Interesting because I think Metaphor's biggest mistake was keeping pretty much the same combat system as Shin Megami Tensei. It's not the most welcoming for new players and I've had friends telling me they just played in Story Mode because they didn't want to deal with it. If I were to suggest a turn-based battle game to other people, it probably would be Octopath Traveler II's or something similar. Octopath, imo, even in the first game, does a much better job at presenting a fresh turn-based battle system.

 

[Spukc]

Turn-based is based.

I hope they don't worry too much about "worldwide fans" and just keep doing what they've been doing during the last 30 years.

Turned based in final fantasy V got perfected
They need to be grindy
They also need to stick to people you start with and invest in.

Also if you want to grind to make the game easier let people do this

 

[March Climber]

Excuse me, but where exactly did Metaphor reinvent anything? Game played the safest route possible.

They're probably talking about being able to 'skip' lower level mobs, which is something I agree with.

I also think a great way of handling turn-based combat will be the new hybrid choice system that some newer games are doing, where you can choose between turn based and realtime combat.

2x and 3x fast forward options have also been a great help.

 

[GHG]

Nothing about this game was "modernised" though. It was very much a call-back to old school jrpgs, and incidentally that's why I loved it.

 

[Zacfoldor]

Turn based games use your brain.

Ball games use an artificial ball. They are based off your reaction time and muscle fiber.

Any game that isn't turn based is a ball game.

Smart people play turn based.

 

[Myths]

If I have to use the speed function in your game more often than not, you aren’t doing anything groundbreaking or stimulating.

Throwing a couple of slides on screen as if it’s a patented and novel concept is laughable. Probably hundreds of RPGMaker indie games buried in the abyss that have employed similar concepts and ideas.

 

[Grizzled Ghost]

They're probably talking about being able to 'skip' lower level mobs, which is something I agree with.

That was in Persona 5 already

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think Square Enix struggles with the concept of turn based because historically their games weren't as strategy based. They were just pretty much straight forward if your stats are good enough you'll win the fight if you have any half way decent strategy.

I felt for the first time that changed "a bit" with FFX though it was still kind of the case, but at least they gave range more of a meaning as well as returning to somewhat of a job system. I think where FFX failed was the sphere grid that reduced the value of said job system.

The Persona games that are so based on cultivating balance between elements makes it far more strategic than traditional turn based final fantasy games.

Square used to be better about testing all sorts of different battle systems, but they kind of just gave up and decided to make action RPGs.

 

[Danjin44]

Atlus make my favourite turn based combat system, I LOVE Press Turn....it simple to understand while still being fun and strategic.

 

[yogaflame]

I love turn based battles in RPG. The best experience I had with turn base battles were Xenogears and Legend of Legaia.

 

[March Climber]

I think Square Enix struggles with the concept of turn based because historically their games weren't as strategy based. They were just pretty much straight forward if your stats are good enough you'll win the fight if you have any half way decent strategy.

That's not just Square Enix, it's the issue with quite a large amount of turn based JRPGs, including licensed I.P. It's why I can understand how people grew tired of them last gen and the gen before. The grind was and still is, largely unnecessary.

It's why I'm thankful these younger/newer gen turn-based developers are at least attempting methods to lessen the feeling of wait/grind with multiple different methods.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

That's not just Square Enix, it's the issue with quite a large amount of turn based JRPGs, including licensed I.P. It's why I can understand how people grew tired of them last gen and the gen before. The grind was and still is, largely unnecessary.

It's why I'm thankful these younger/newer gen turn-based developers are at least attempting methods to lessen the feeling of wait/grind with multiple different methods.

Who else are you talking about.

Square Enix probably represented 80% of the turn based JRPG market... With the only really significant property being Persona...

 

[March Climber]

Who else are you talking about.

Square Enix probably represented 80% of the turn based JRPG market... With the only really significant property being Persona...

The multitude of JRPGs from the PS3 and PS4 generation from publishers such as Xseed/Marvelous, Bandai Namco (non-tales games), NIS, Falcom, etc.

I know many people here might have forgotten them, but I haven't forgotten. They were a dime-a-dozen on the Vita, PS3, and PS4 and a ton of them were either easy to the point of boring grinds, or extremely difficult to the point of requiring grinding (which in turn made them boring anyway).

While I like this new renaissance of smarter-made turn-based JRPGs, we can't forget how we got to this point of companies like Square Enix being afraid to even touch the genre or at most dip their toes in it.

 

[Puscifer]

Turn-based is based.

I hope they don't worry too much about "worldwide fans" and just keep doing what they've been doing during the last 30 years.

I think they have it figured out. To me they've perfected the sense of back-and-forth turn based systems need to be engaging. The last DQ let you reposition characters but it really didn't add to anything.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Atlus make my favourite turn based combat system, I LOVE Press Turn....it simple to understand while still being fun and strategic.

Only "bad" part about it is learning the names of the spells. Man was my first playthrough in an SMT game confusing as hell. "Makarakarn" you say? yeah sure buddy.

I think they have it figured out. To me they've perfected the sense of back-and-forth turn based systems need to be engaging. The last DQ let you reposition characters but it really didn't add to anything.

Yeah I love it. As Danjin said it's very strategic while not being too complicated, and very engaging as well.

 

[a'la mode]

I've always thought Grandia's (especially 2) take on turn based combat is some of the best, playing around with timings and cancels was pretty engaging and allowed you to implement some strategy. Not that it was perfect, it could use some updates, but I'd enjoy more of that.

 

[Fbh]

Turn based can be good as long as devs find a way to keep battles interesting and dynamic by forcing the player to adapt their strategy at regular intervals (and not just during boss battles). SMT for example is great at this with the press turn system and the way it encourages you to constantly update your party with new demons.

It can become boring though when games don't challenge you enough and you just end up going through 90% of the game using the same abilities in the same order in every fight. While I still enjoyed the game, I thought DQ11 definitely suffered a bit from this (specially in the second half)

 

[Danjin44]

Only "bad" part about it is learning the names of the spells. Man was my first playthrough in an SMT game confusing as hell. "Makarakarn" you say? yeah sure buddy.

True the names can confusing when you first start playing SMT/Persona.

 

[Wildebeest]

A lot of these classic console games had very easy battles because they were aimed at young kids unlike early RPG games for platforms like the Apple II which were made for adults. Now, it might be that some of those kids never got a taste for any sort of difficulty growing up and just see RPGs as a very slow burn narrative genre with boring trash battles.

 

[Minsc]

Final Fantasy Tactics is peak gameplay. We should do another strategy RPG but make in mainline.

 

[Grizzled Ghost]

Who else are you talking about.

Square Enix probably represented 80% of the turn based JRPG market... With the only really significant property being Persona...

I feel like Nis/Falcom almost put out as many jrpgs in a year as Squeenix does in a generation

Koei/techmo crank out those Atelier game too

 

[xenosys]

Excuse me, but where exactly did Metaphor reinvent anything? Game played the safest route possible.

Atlus haven't invented anything for 20 years tbh. They use the same formula and occasionally throw a fresh coat of paint on their newest game and western journos wank themselves silly over it like Atlus have just discovered fire.

They iterate, which is fine, because that's exactly what Fromsoft have successfully been doing for 15 years, but no, they aren't inventing or re-inventing anything in the genre.

 

[Killer8]

I wouldn't listen to Atlus on this one. I'd listen to Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio who switched their main franchise to turn-based battles and have seemingly gone from strength to strength.

But even that game wasn't doing anything special. I guess i'd conclude that the battle system doesn't actually matter all that much, everything else does in an RPG. It's not the deal breaker people make it out to be.

 

[Humdinger]

Mmhm. I think of the Yakuza series and how they've turned to turn-based, and I also think of Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, with what looks like an innovative turn-based combat system.

I have not yet learned to like turn-based combat myself. The only turn-based game I ever really enjoyed was Lost Odyssey, 20 years ago on the Xbox. Every other turn-based combat game I've played has felt awkward and childish to me. The childish part was because these were all JRPGs, and the ones I played had a childlike quality in terms of characters, dialog, and art design. This was one reason I liked Lost Odyssey - it was a game for adults, with serious dialog and story. But beyond that, I just didn't like the "wait for your turn ... now select your option for this round" combat.

Yakuza is one of my favorite series, so I'll have to give turn-based combat another chance if I want to enjoy the LAD games. And Clair Obscur looks good, so I'll have to give it a chance there, too.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Mmhm. I think of the Yakuza series and how they've turned to turn-based, and I also think of Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, with what looks like an innovative turn-based combat system.

I have not yet learned to like turn-based combat myself. The only turn-based game I ever really enjoyed was Lost Odyssey, 20 years ago on the Xbox. Every other turn-based combat game I've played has felt awkward and childish to me. The childish part was because these were all JRPGs, and the ones I played had a childlike quality in terms of characters, dialog, and art design. This was one reason I liked Lost Odyssey - it was a game for adults, with serious dialog and story. But beyond that, I just didn't like the "wait for your turn ... now select your option for this round" combat.

Yakuza is one of my favorite series, so I'll have to give turn-based combat another chance if I want to enjoy the LAD games. And Clair Obscur looks good, so I'll have to give it a chance there, too.

Have you tried persona 5?

 

[Humdinger]

Have you tried persona 5?

Yes, I have. I made it about 50 hours, then quit. The turn-based combat was okay. I appreciated the flash and style of it, although it grew repetitive after a while. What ultimately caused me to quit was all the high school-type conversations and characters. I just didn't relate/connect. High school was a long damn time ago, heh...

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Considering Metaphor is literally the same Press Turn system SMT has used for the better part of 40 years I have no idea what this man is talking about

 

[Generic]

Turn based games use your brain.

Ball games use an artificial ball. They are based off your reaction time and muscle fiber.

Any game that isn't turn based is a ball game.

Smart people play turn based.

Not really, real time combat requires decisions to be made in split-seconds.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

Not really, real time combat requires decisions to be made in split-seconds.

Yes, and i'd also argue there's not much with regards to "being smart" about playing a game turn-based, as it's still a very straight forward process that doesn't include any kind of intellectual challenge. The most "difficult" part will be memorizing patterns and values attached to items and functions (methods, actions), but you can technically teach a monkey to memorize stuff. I like both and don't understand this discussion at all.

 

[Hudo]

Very lengthy article with a lot of quotes and slides in it.

Turn-Based Battles Aren’t Dead—How Metaphor: ReFantazio Reinvents JRPG Combat

Turn-based RPGs are evolving! Metaphor: ReFantazio battle designer Kenichi Goto reveals how innovative mechanics like the Fast Battle System and Refinement System modernize the genre while keeping strategic depth intact.

noisypixel.net

God bless this man. I would have sex in turn-based mode if I could.

 

[EDMIX]

God bless this man. I would have sex in turn-based mode if I could.

lol yessssssssssss! Putting on condom happens between a turn, its like an equip.

Be like +1 Speed, -4 Girth

 

[kremiso]

I've always thought Grandia's (especially 2) take on turn based combat is some of the best, playing around with timings and cancels was pretty engaging and allowed you to implement some strategy. Not that it was perfect, it could use some updates, but I'd enjoy more of that.

this
Grandia 2 is still my fave battle system, really i would like to see new titles exploring that mechanic

turn based for the win