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[Mibu no ookami]

why does this guy have two keyboards

As someone who works in IT and has multiple keyboards connected to my setup, I can say in the best case it's because he has a KVM or multiple monitors hooked up to different computers and he's able to utilize using they keyboard for different things.

What's maybe more likely or probably closer to the truth is that he thinks it gives him clot on his streams. The dude is a major grifter and I doubt any developers are actively talking to him. Half his video is speculation and the other half is reading public articles written by other gaming journalists...

More to the point, why are we pretending like Shadow of Mordor was this perfect game? It has an 84 MC with a 7.9 user score. Was it unique and a generally good implementation of a licensed property at a time where companies like activision were throwing out slop? Sure, but it was no where close to Batman or Spider-Man.

That Black Panther game, does anyone think that it has any likelihood of being anywhere close to as good as Arkham or Spider-Man? It must according to him since it has the "OGs" from Shadow of Mordor? The Black Panther game has been in development since 2023 and we still haven't seen anything from it either.

As someone who likes superhero games (for the most part) we probably are reaching a level of oversaturation with them and I think that played a part in Wonder Woman being canceled.

You have 1943 Marvel game featuring black panther and you have a black panther game on top of it. Throw in a greenlit Batman Beyond game on top of Wolverine and because of the leak you know X-Men is coming as is Spider-Man 3... and yeah, it might make sense to cut your losses on Wonder Woman. You also have Jade Raymond's old studio Motive doing an iron man game. The blade game that is also in dire straits after the shelving of the movie.

 

[MiguelItUp]

2 games with Wonder Woman. Dunno what San Diego was working on.

Might be part of James Gunn's new plan for DC.

Yeah that's the thing, I don't think anyone does. Apparently they were working on SOMETHING though.

Gunn already mentioned something about how if people want a DC like Rivals game, they'll look into it. So, while I'm sure a lot of this was just WB being WB, Gunn probably has more to do with future game development than we may have though.

Maybe Nightdive can scoop up the rights now for NOLF. And remaster FEAR.

I wish. I know rights issues and all that, but my god if they could get Aliens Vs Predator 2, I would be sent over the moon.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

They should have sold monolith, they would 100% have found a buyer. Seems bizarre to just shutter it when they could have nabbed a good chunk of change from a decent buyer.

This is what my main question about this whole shitfest is. Why not sell Monolith? WB could've gotten some money and Monolith would've had the chance to live on. And their reputation was as a studio was solid.

Who is going to buy and why?

People like to pretend like Monolith had this great value. They never did, but certainly not now.

Who would buy them, what value do they have without the LOTR license? Why would you buy the studio rather than just recruiting some remaining key people?

 

[KINGMOKU]

Well gee whiz, years of working, with nothing to show for it.

Wonder if they got an email as well?

 

[Allandor]

So, we don't get a nolf Remake/remaster I guess...

 

[Madflavor]

Warner Bros Games needs to be burn. Whoever the higher ups are, needs to clean fucking house and get rid of management. They own Lord of the Rings and DC, and look what they've done with it. How do you drop the ball so hard on making games with IPs that huge?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Warner Bros Games needs to be burn. Whoever the higher ups are, needs to clean fucking house and get rid of management. They own Lord of the Rings and DC, and look what they've done with it. How do you drop the ball so hard on making games with IPs that huge?

LOL, they have one of the best-selling games of the generation in Hogwarts Legacy... a game that has sold more this generation than most publishers have sold across their entire library...

Not saying they're perfect or can't improve. I thought they were misguided with Gotham Knights and definitely Suicide Squad. But I can see why they made Gotham Knights, it just wasn't for me. Same with Suicide Squad.

I'm sure you thought Marvel Rivals was going to flop.

 

[ClanOfNone]

So, we don't get a nolf Remake/remaster I guess...

Maybe Gaming Jeebus will smile upon us and we’ll get Nightdive remasters for NOLF and TRON 2.0.
TRON was amazing, I’d love to play that again even more than NOLF.

 

[kruis]

I keep hearing this.

Why is it that people always want to blame management? You realize you can do everything right in life and still fail? It's a competitive market and games cost a lot of money to develop. Studios are realizing that the AAA space is actually TOO competitive and there are too many games releasing and too many AAA studios.

We're not even 2 months into the year and we've already seen the following games release

Monster Hunter Wilds*
Kingdom Come Deliverance 2
Avowed
Civilization 7
Dynasty Warriors Origins
Like a Dragon: PYH

It's just an oversaturation of games, many of which are pretty high quality. This is like half the number of games you'd get at this level in an entire year 20 years ago.

What nonsense. I give you MHW and KCD2 as guaranteed multi million sellers, but the rest? Nah. Besides that, these games are nothing compared to what we got 25 years ago.

 

[Hudo]

Who is going to buy and why?

People like to pretend like Monolith had this great value. They never did, but certainly not now.

Who would buy them, what value do they have without the LOTR license? Why would you buy the studio rather than just recruiting some remaining key people?

Why not at least try to sell them?

 

[Esppiral]

Wonder woman game? Who asked for that?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Why not at least try to sell them?

Who said they didn't?

Too often we assume things didn't happen because we aren't privy to all the details.

Divestment is super complicated and there's not a whole lot of buyers in the market now. Most people are laying employees off, canceling games, and closing studios, not looking to buy studios that used to be slightly above average 7 years ago and was only relevant with the LOTR license.

Again, tell me who was going to buy them.

 

[RedC]

Wonder woman game? Who asked for that?

Remember the first film in 2017 was a massive success grossing over $800 million at the box office.

The problem was that WB Games should've already had a Wonder Woman game in development and planned to release it around that time to capitalize on it.

 

[TGO]

Well, No sympathy for these guys. They havent made a game in like 8 years. Wonder Woman was in development for years and we saw nothing. If you cant even show any work you've done in almost a decade then you dont deserve to be in the industry.

*Playstation Studios reading your post*

 

[Hudo]

Who said they didn't?

Too often we assume things didn't happen because we aren't privy to all the details.

Divestment is super complicated and there's not a whole lot of buyers in the market now. Most people are laying employees off, canceling games, and closing studios, not looking to buy studios that used to be slightly above average 7 years ago and was only relevant with the LOTR license.

Again, tell me who was going to buy them.

There might have been buyers. But yes, we don't know if they did not think about it. But you assumed that Monolith had no reputation and no value at all, which is just not true. They were one of WB's "crown jewels" and had a history even before they were bought by WB. The reason why they've wasted years on Wonder Woman was due to WB's mismanagement.

So basically we don't know shit. Which is fair enough, I guess.

 

[Madflavor]

LOL, they have one of the best-selling games of the generation in Hogwarts Legacy... a game that has sold more this generation than most publishers have sold across their entire library...

I'm sure you thought Marvel Rivals was going to flop.

Having one really successful game doesn't undo all their fuck ups does it? Hogwarts Legacy was a demonstration on how powerful their library of IPs are, and look what they've done with it. All of their misfires and anti-consumer practices have stacked up. Yes, they are incompetent.

And no I didn't think Marvel Rivals was going to flop because I never paid attention to that game's development to begin with.

Not saying they're perfect or can't improve. I thought they were misguided with Gotham Knights and definitely Suicide Squad. But I can see why they made Gotham Knights, it just wasn't for me. Same with Suicide Squad.

No they're far from perfect. They suck ass. They own some of the most highly marketable IPs in the world, and they've bungled the majority of them. It only makes Hogwart's Legacy seem like a fluke, considering the publisher.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

There might have been buyers. But yes, we don't know if they did not think about it. But you assumed that Monolith had no reputation and no value at all, which is just not true. They were one of WB's "crown jewels" and had a history even before they were bought by WB. The reason why they've wasted years on Wonder Woman was due to WB's mismanagement.

So basically we don't know shit. Which is fair enough, I guess.

What was their best selling game before Shadow of Mordor? Is the staff that worked on that game still present?

WB was never a great publisher to begin with, their "Crown jewels" or just regular average jewels. Even Avalance is not a great developer. Hogwarts Legacy is a fun but broken game devoid of any real depth, but sold super well. No reason to think a Wonder Woman game couldn't also be successful.

Mismanagement without evidence of mismanagement is speculation and assumption and laziness. It ignores every factor and assumes that if management can't see every possible outcome, that they are to blame for everything. I can tell who has never worked as a manager before.

Ever have an employee get sick or hospitalized? Ever have someone just get a better offer somewhere else? Shit happens that is outside of your control. Your catch-all criticism for management to mean literally everyone, is a useless term.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Remember the first film in 2017 was a massive success grossing over $800 million at the box office.

The problem was that WB Games should've already had a Wonder Woman game in development and planned to release it around that time to capitalize on it.

Exactly, that's what I was saying! They've clearly mastered the art of "releasing things at weird times" or just flopping on marketing/timing in general, especially when there are related films or other media that could help game sales, etc.

The Wonder Woman game should've come out when the movies were still hot, doing the same thing with Suicide Squad could've been helpful a bit too I'm sure. Albeit the game was a mismanaged mess for other reasons.

Mad Max came out the same year as Fury Road, but the marketing behind it just felt pretty mild which probably didn't help sales much.

As time went on it felt like they were getting more and more overwhelmed by their own incompetence.

 

[Shaki12345]

WB Games management are retards. Nobody asked for a Wonder Woman game. Dumb fucks.

Hope the talented people there find a new job.

 

[RedC]

Exactly, that's what I was saying! They've clearly mastered the art of "releasing things at weird times" or just flopping on marketing/timing in general, especially when there are related films or other media that could help game sales, etc.

The Wonder Woman game should've come out when the movies were still hot, doing the same thing with Suicide Squad could've been helpful a bit too I'm sure. Albeit the game was a mismanaged mess for other reasons.

Mad Max came out the same year as Fury Road, but the marketing behind it just felt pretty mild which probably didn't help sales much.

As time went on it felt like they were getting more and more overwhelmed by their own incompetence.

WB likely underestimated how successful the first Wonder Woman film would be and understandably waited to see the results before investing in a big-budget, blockbuster AAA game.

 

[Astray]

Why is it that people always want to blame management?

Because gaming journalists actively protect their sources (almost always in mid to low level dev jobs) and write post-mortem stories that omit their role in failures.

 

[yurinka]

Why not sell Monolith?

They should have sold monolith, they would 100% have found a buyer. Seems bizarre to just shutter it when they could have nabbed a good chunk of change from a decent buyer.

Before closing a studio, companies try to sell it to reduce related costs and save jobs. If they closed it is because nobody wanted to buy it, even at a very low price.

WB likely underestimated how successful the first Wonder Woman film would be and understandably waited to see the results before investing in a big-budget, blockbuster AAA game.

I'd say the opposite, they thought the movie was successful so they thought that a AAA using that IP would be too. Pretty likely later realized in playtests that they were going a mediocre/bad game and that the IP wasn't going to be big enough to save it (pretty likely their playtest results were like Suicide Squad or worse), so cancelled it.

AAA industry is in shambles. Piss poor management.

The opposite. AAA industry makes more money than ever, has more people working on it than ever and has more studios than ever.

Warner Bros Games needs to be burn. Whoever the higher ups are, needs to clean fucking house and get rid of management. They own Lord of the Rings and DC, and look what they've done with it. How do you drop the ball so hard on making games with IPs that huge?

The one who owns LotR rights is Embracer, not WB.

 

[Astray]

What was their best selling game before Shadow of Mordor? Is the staff that worked on that game still present?

WB was never a great publisher to begin with, their "Crown jewels" or just regular average jewels. Even Avalance is not a great developer. Hogwarts Legacy is a fun but broken game devoid of any real depth, but sold super well. No reason to think a Wonder Woman game couldn't also be successful.

Mismanagement without evidence of mismanagement is speculation and assumption and laziness. It ignores every factor and assumes that if management can't see every possible outcome, that they are to blame for everything. I can tell who has never worked as a manager before.

Ever have an employee get sick or hospitalized? Ever have someone just get a better offer somewhere else? Shit happens that is outside of your control. Your catch-all criticism for management to mean literally everyone, is a useless term.

I think WB Games generally are worse-run than most of the other western publishers.

A lot of their moves have been completely erratic with no actual plan behind them (which tracks because the larger corp has not been healthy at all since the AT&T merger).

 

[MiguelItUp]

WB likely underestimated how successful the first Wonder Woman film would be and understandably waited to see the results before investing in a big-budget, blockbuster AAA game.

Which I can understand not wanting to take risks... but that many years later? I mean, nothing against Wonder Woman, but she's not the most compelling super hero, she never has been.

 

[RedC]

I'd say the opposite, they thought the movie was successful so they thought that a AAA using that IP would be too.

That's actually in agreement with what I was saying.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think WB Games generally are worse-run than most of the other western publishers.

A lot of their moves have been completely erratic with no actual plan behind them (which tracks because the larger corp has not been healthy at all since the AT&T merger).

That's because they're so reliant on IP. They've been around since 2004, which isn't a super long time for a publisher in this industry. I don't recall a single hit game that didn't use a WB IP.

I just see them for what they are. No one really cared about them before Arkham Asylum, which might not have been as popular had it not been for Chris Nolan's batman movies and the batman fever they generated.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Which I can understand not wanting to take risks... but that many years later? I mean, nothing against Wonder Woman, but she's not the most compelling super hero, she never has been.

25th highest grossing superhero film of all time.

Ignoring team ups (except Guardians) and only looking at individual super hero franchises wonder woman would rank in top 10... that sounds pretty compelling to me.

The bigger problem is the gameplay mechanics, which despite his popularity I think plague Wolverine too. Note the Wonder Woman did better than any Wolverine stand alone movie to give some context to how well that movie did.

Batman works so well because of the stealth elements and the gadgets. Spider-Man is similar there plus even more fun web swinging.

Insomniac probably should have done X-Men first and then Wolverine as a side game like Miles Morales.

 

[RedC]

Which I can understand not wanting to take risks... but that many years later? I mean, nothing against Wonder Woman, but she's not the most compelling super hero, she never has been.

To be fair to WB games, It's difficult to anticipate the extent of potential development issues in executing this new ambitious game which was likely huge in scale and scope and high production values in the ever-increasing budgets and time it takes to release new games.

There's a reason why the AAA industry has become more and more reliant on franchises and non-stop sequels to games whose foundations in game systems, game mechanics, and brand appeal have already been established and proven to be successful in the marketplace.

 

[ProtoByte]

WB likely underestimated how successful the first Wonder Woman film would be and understandably waited to see the results before investing in a big-budget, blockbuster AAA game.

No, that had nothing to do with it. Well, very little, by the time the game was greenlit.

So Wonder Woman was a pretty major success in 2017; the same year Monolith released Shadow of War. Mired in lootbox controversy, but it still did some business.

So then for the next 4 years, Monolith was tossing around the idea of making an original IP instead of any one of WB's copious IPs that external studios would have to pay tens of millions for. WB Games management didn't have the cojones to tell them no until the very end of that duration. When they finally did, the leadership at Monolith left in frustration, and imo, it's 40% their own fault for playing chicken with WB with such a naive notion. In hilarious irony, this cadre that was so interested in flexing their creative muscles to make original IP went to EA - to make a Black Panther game.

The remaining devs at Monolith then decided on Wonder Woman, just months before the reveal at TGA 2021, promising to implement the nemesis system into the game. Problem is that the people who pioneered and understood the Nemesis system largely bounced for that Black Panther game. So they struggled with the technology enough that the game needed a reboot early last year that took that feature out, which is pretty fundamental to the game design.

It was on the chopping block because David Hadad - who greenlit the game - is out the door. Usually projects like, especially problematic and expensive ones, get reevaluated when their advocates leave. That, and James Gunn has this bright idea that he can line up live action movies, animated movies, live action television, animated television, AND video games into one selectively coherent DC multimedia universe. It just so happens that he's avoiding anything Wonder Woman like the plague.

 

[diffusionx]

Which I can understand not wanting to take risks... but that many years later? I mean, nothing against Wonder Woman, but she's not the most compelling super hero, she never has been.

Look at when the game started development, it's obvious they chose WW because they wanted a girlboss game.

 

[Chuck Berry]

There's silver lining here

Jace Hall, one of the OG founders of Monolith, is the one that owns the rights to the Condemned IP

Which means...

There's still a chance for a Condemned 3

 

[RedC]

No, that had nothing to do with it. Well, very little, by the time the game was greenlit.

So Wonder Woman was a pretty major success in 2017; the same year Monolith released Shadow of War. Mired in lootbox controversy, but it still did some business.

So then for the next 4 years, Monolith was tossing around the idea of making an original IP instead of any one of WB's copious IPs that external studios would have to pay tens of millions for. WB Games management didn't have the cojones to tell them no until the very end of that duration. When they finally did, the leadership at Monolith left in frustration, and imo, it's 40% their own fault for playing chicken with WB with such a naive notion. In hilarious irony, this cadre that was so interested in flexing their creative muscles to make original IP went to EA - to make a Black Panther game.

The remaining devs at Monolith then decided on Wonder Woman, just months before the reveal at TGA 2021, promising to implement the nemesis system into the game. Problem is that the people who pioneered and understood the Nemesis system largely bounced for that Black Panther game. So they struggled with the technology enough that the game needed a reboot early last year that took that feature out, which is pretty fundamental to the game design.

It was on the chopping block because David Hadad - who greenlit the game - is out the door. Usually projects like, especially problematic and expensive ones, get reevaluated when their advocates leave. That, and James Gunn has this bright idea that he can line up live action movies, animated movies, live action television, animated television, AND video games into one selectively coherent DC multimedia universe. It just so happens that he's avoiding anything Wonder Woman like the plague.

Thanks for providing context.

 

[Hudo]

What was their best selling game before Shadow of Mordor? Is the staff that worked on that game still present?

WB was never a great publisher to begin with, their "Crown jewels" or just regular average jewels. Even Avalance is not a great developer. Hogwarts Legacy is a fun but broken game devoid of any real depth, but sold super well. No reason to think a Wonder Woman game couldn't also be successful.

Mismanagement without evidence of mismanagement is speculation and assumption and laziness. It ignores every factor and assumes that if management can't see every possible outcome, that they are to blame for everything. I can tell who has never worked as a manager before.

Ever have an employee get sick or hospitalized? Ever have someone just get a better offer somewhere else? Shit happens that is outside of your control. Your catch-all criticism for management to mean literally everyone, is a useless term.

There is enough evidence of mismanagement by WB. Look at Rocksteady's Justice League game, which was, as far as we know, a result of poor management by Rocksteady's, for which WB are responsible. Wonder Woman was assigned to Monolith by WB, so was Gotham City Impostors (if you want to believe rumors). Multiversus was just handled poorly on all fronts.
If multiple studios of a publisher produce shit things and/or have trouble handling their projects properly, it is clearly a sign of mismanagement by the publisher.

Monolith regularly put out well-rated games that, at the very least, sold well enough for the studio to make new games. And they've produced more well-rated games during their history than all of WB's other studios. And sure, many of the OGs had already left. But the Mordor games were made without the OGs, and those sold and rated fairly well. So were Fear, Fear 2 and Condmened, they also had different people involved than the OGs (except for Craig Hubbard, he stuck around for quite a while). So it doesn't seem that Monolith's culture had a bus factor like that.

 

[Edder1]

Imagine you have a wealth of cool IPs from Warner Brothers and Monolith chose Wonder Woman as their next game because they wanted to be woke and progressive... These fools have clowned themselves and deserve to go down in flames.

 

[AJUMP23]

We are never getting the nemesis system again are we?

 

[Team Andromeda]

So sad to see Monolith go . Loved so many of their games

 

[Mister Wolf]

No, that had nothing to do with it. Well, very little, by the time the game was greenlit.

So Wonder Woman was a pretty major success in 2017; the same year Monolith released Shadow of War. Mired in lootbox controversy, but it still did some business.

So then for the next 4 years, Monolith was tossing around the idea of making an original IP instead of any one of WB's copious IPs that external studios would have to pay tens of millions for. WB Games management didn't have the cojones to tell them no until the very end of that duration. When they finally did, the leadership at Monolith left in frustration, and imo, it's 40% their own fault for playing chicken with WB with such a naive notion. In hilarious irony, this cadre that was so interested in flexing their creative muscles to make original IP went to EA - to make a Black Panther game.

The remaining devs at Monolith then decided on Wonder Woman, just months before the reveal at TGA 2021, promising to implement the nemesis system into the game. Problem is that the people who pioneered and understood the Nemesis system largely bounced for that Black Panther game. So they struggled with the technology enough that the game needed a reboot early last year that took that feature out, which is pretty fundamental to the game design.

It was on the chopping block because David Hadad - who greenlit the game - is out the door. Usually projects like, especially problematic and expensive ones, get reevaluated when their advocates leave. That, and James Gunn has this bright idea that he can line up live action movies, animated movies, live action television, animated television, AND video games into one selectively coherent DC multimedia universe. It just so happens that he's avoiding anything Wonder Woman like the plague.

Would be funny if they recreated the Nemesis System for Black Panther while avoiding the copyright.

 

[IDKFA]

Imagine you have a wealth of cool IPs from Warner Brothers and Monolith chose Wonder Woman as their next game because they wanted to be woke and progressive... These fools have clowned themselves and deserve to go down in flames.

First, do we know that it was Monolith who decided on WW, or did Warner tell them to make it?

Second, how is WW "woke and progressive"?

 

[Come On Tars]

Could have made so much money and saved the studio if they made another shadow of Mordor.

 

[rochet]

Could have made so much money and saved the studio if they made another shadow of Mordor.

They should of made another Mordor or a Fear Remake/Reimagined. Good studio lead by crappy WB production. Shame they will be one of the few studios that will be missed.
Here is a good video:

 

[freemandos]

The old Monolith Productions was one of my favourite developers. The studio was crippled by Warner Bros a long time ago, and now...well, why am I not surprised?

 

[captainnapalm]

The more I see about how the main Monolith guys left and who was writing this Wonder Woman game - I think nothing of value was lost. It was going to be Suicide Squad all over again. I wouldn't shed a tear if Rocksteady closed down now either - The Rocksteady we knew and loved is already gone. Same seems true for Monolith.

 

[ProtoByte]

Would be funny if they recreated the Nemesis System for Black Panther while avoiding the copyright.

They're more likely than ever to license it out, but tbh, the Nemesis patent gets way too much anti-brigading focus online because people like to LARP as corporate rebels.

Devs can and have come up with systems that are very similar - patents are quite specific. Watch Dogs Legion and even AC Odyssey kinda have iirc, which are not small examples that would get passed over by WB if they had cause and an itchy legal finger.

The main reason why you don't see Nemesis-likes is because it's quite hard to implement. It requires expertise, time and consequently money that most don't have all together. Maybe 20 people leaving was all it took for not even Monolith to have the know-how to iterate on it for WW.

 

[Tomofdahook17]

It's really incredible how much each company jerks off to the next one, to the point that they all make similarly shitty games and have to shut down entire studios because of how cookie cutter they are.

They are falling like dominoes.

 

[Physiognomonics]

I am guessing this is due to WW 1984 flop and that it was a service game?

 

[ProtoByte]

I am guessing this is due to WW 1984 flop and that it was a service game?

No. It's a complicated story, but the TLDR is that WB Games leadership was playing chicken for 4 years, and Monolith splintered which messed up the technology logistics while trying to reverse engineer the Nemesis system and restructure the studio after the entire leadership team left.

 

[Physiognomonics]

No. It's a complicated story, but the TLDR is that WB Games leadership was playing chicken for 4 years, and Monolith splintered which messed up the technology logistics while trying to reverse engineer the Nemesis system and restructure the studio after the entire leadership team left.

Why did they leave?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

These people are so loveable and kind.....good riddance cow, and i hope you never work in the game industry again

 

[RafterXL]

This game was absolutely going to be terrible. They/them thinks they had a story the "world needed to hear in these really difficult times". With the gender mafia running the show, this was going to 100% be slop.