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[HighPoly]

I mean, I'm not asking specificly about salaries or jobs in general. I'm asking americans, what is the American Middle Class lifestyle today?
Like, What kind of cars, size of houses, health security, travels.
But I already know that statistics and salaries are extremely random, because it will depend on which States or Cities these families are living.
But anyway, I'm curious about because as I remember, the 80's movies sold a kind of american dream on televisions for another countries.
I remember that movie HOME ALONE, with a giant vitorian house with a bunch of kids, expensive toys and lifestyle.
But I've seen the lower middle class drama in the first BACK TO THE FUTURE. Something Marty MacFly changed through his time travel.
I could post so many movies from 80's, 90's and early 2000's that sells an amazing American Lifestyle, but I ignorantly know that this is not true, specially today(2023).

So, Let's talk!

 

[jason10mm]

Home Alone was DEFINITELY upper class. But lots of shows had to use larger spaces for film purposes than the characters technically could afford. 80's/90's had plenty of middle class (Married with Children, Rosanne) along with upper class (Fresh Prince, The Nanny, Silver Spoons).

I'd say a middle class experience today would be both parents working, big screen tv in every room, kids on ipads/iphones all the time, and 1 big vacation a year. At least a 3 bedroom living space, probably 4, so depends on the # of kids if they bunk up. No servants, housecleaners, or nannys though, unlike other countries that stuff is almost all reserved for upper class in America. We use day care and do the house work ourselves.

 

[AJUMP23]

I would say you have 2 cars, most people are in debt for. A medium house around 2000SQ.FT. A mortgage and a lot of credit card debt.


This article broke me as I tell my young employees to invest now and invest often. It is your best best to grow wealth.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/investing/the-average-401k-balance-by-age


I explained to one of my guys about a Roth IRA and encouraged him to do it. I doubt he will.

 

[jason10mm]

One thing that used to be a big plot point for films was the lower class/middle class kid hoping for a scholarship so they could go to college. Notice that is COMPLETELY gone now? Kids just take out loans, no matter what. Another one was kids looking at the military as a way out of their circumstances. Don't see that too often now either, I think like 70% of military recruits have a family member who served, so it's becoming a family business (which should REALLY worry people).

 

[GutsOfThor]

A MISERABLE PILE OF SECRETS!

 

[HighPoly]

Home Alone was DEFINITELY upper class. But lots of shows had to use larger spaces for film purposes than the characters technically could afford. 80's/90's had plenty of middle class (Married with Children, Rosanne) along with upper class (Fresh Prince, The Nanny, Silver Spoons).

I'd say a middle class experience today would be both parents working, big screen tv in every room, kids on ipads/iphones all the time, and 1 big vacation a year. At least a 3 bedroom living space, probably 4, so depends on the # of kids if they bunk up. No servants, housecleaners, or nannys though, unlike other countries that stuff is almost all reserved for upper class in America. We use day care and do the house work ourselves.

That's a similar lifestyle here in my home, but the diference is that we are considered Upper Middle Class in my country, not middle/middle class.
Middle Class from Brazil uses a ''public health security'', fathers drives their own cars but teenagers or even an early young adult uses public transportation, no iphones or OLED TVs.
The first car is always a distant dream to be true, unless you buy a weird used machine.
I think being a middle class in Chicago, Los Angeles, New York is diferent than being a middle class in some medium town in TEXAS, IOWA, Kansas.
Am I right?

 

[jason10mm]

That's a similar lifestyle here in my home, but the diference is that we are considered Upper Middle Class in my country, not middle/middle class.
Middle Class from Brazil uses a ''public health security'', fathers drives their own cars but teenagers or even an early young adult uses public transportation, no iphones or OLED TVs.
The first car is always a distant dream to be true, unless you buy a weird used machine.
I think being a middle class in Chicago, Los Angeles, New York is diferent than being a middle class in some medium town in TEXAS, IOWA, Kansas.
Am I right?

Well, you can quibble about lower middle, middle middle, and upper middle all day, but I'd say that virtually ALL tweens on up have a cell phone in America, regardless of class. The only difference is the newness of the model. Whether or not you have a car as a teen is debatable, depends on if you have a job that merits it. Car insurance for a teen is expensive so I imagine middle class parents would need to justify a car for a kid, while upper class use a car as a present regardless of need. We LIVED to get our own car when I was a kid, but I was pretty solid middle class and didn't get my own car till college because I didn't need one till then. Most of my friends had their own cars in high school though (I survived borrowing one of my parents cars when needed).

Certainly location plays a part, but I suspect at the 10,000 foot level there isn't much difference between city and rural kids other than the types of jobs they work after school and the variety of food/recreation options. But a mall is a mall for sitting around trying to sneak into a movie and stretching a food court meal out to last all day so you have some money left over for ice cream so you can chat up the hottie working the counter.

 

[jshackles]

Where I live:

Lower class = homeless or functionally homeless. If it's a traditional family, they might be all living in a 500sq ft apartment if they're lucky. Lots of people working "regular" / retail jobs making $15/hr are living in their cars while showering once a week at a homeless shelter so they can stay employed. You work "part time" to the legal upper limit of 38 hours a week, so that your company doesn't have to pay you benefits or give you vacation time. Unlike the 80s and 90s, these aren't high school dropouts, they're typically people with a college education (either associates or bachelors degree). Almost zero upwards mobility. Home ownership is out of the question, because a typical 3 bedroom house here costs nearly $500k which is difficult to achieve on even a combined $30/hr salary. Rent is almost $2,500 a month for the cheapest place, thus the high number of homeless.

Middle class = you make over $100,000 as a single person or a combined income over about $180k for two people, and can afford that somewhat decent apartment. Your rent has more than doubled in the last 5 years. If you're lucky you bought a house 10 or more years ago before the boom, but it's going to be several decades old now and likely small or need a lot of repairs. You can afford basic things like groceries, a car payment or two, and have just a little bit of money left over for things like your hobbies. Making that kind of cash, you probably have some paid time off which is great, but not enough money left over to take a vacation (too expensive) - if you budget, you might be able to afford a domestic trip every couple of years. That being said, you realize that your money is better spent trying to save up to either buy a house or move somewhere else. If you're in a situation where you have a roof over your head, you're likely also going to be supporting your kids / siblings / parents / grandparents / nieces and nephews / close friends, since they would otherwise be homeless without your help (see above). Even though you make so much money, you're likely still living paycheck to paycheck, especially if you're renting.

Upper class = You're statistically over 65. You "worked your ass off" somewhere in California at a job you started in 1985 before retiring 5 years ago with a giant pension or some huge golden parachute. You have tens of millions of dollars in the bank, sometimes more. You own a home here, but you only stay there a few months out of the year because "the winters here don't agree with you". You pay some poor homeless looking motherfucker $15/hr to come clean your house once a week the rest of the time while you're away. You paid over a million dollars for your house in a bidding war, but came out on top (sucks for the other guy). You probably have a nice fishing boat or yacht, that you also pay someone else to maintain or operate for you. You don't work, and your only contribution to society really is that you're bringing your vast fortune into the local economy. You look down on everyone below you, because you think to yourself "why don't they just get a job that pays them enough to live comfortably?"

 

[k_trout]

middle class just working class with better credit score

 

[RJMacready73]

growing up we where all so jealous of America cause the movies depicted this incredible urban lifestyle of skateboarding around big housing developments with lots of trees and pool parties, hanging out at the mall etc, then i took a bus from Toronto to Rochester and got my eyes opened

 

[diffusionx]

it really doesn't exist. The middle class has been completely gutted. Either you are a college educated professional making a decent salary (with most of that going into basic upkeep of life) or you are just barely surviving financially.

The days when say a painter or a bricklayer could support his wife and five+ kids (yes) in a peaceful, clean neighborhood with schools that taught those kids well are long, long, long gone.

 

[Trunx81]

Middle class = you make over $100,000 as a single person or a combined income over about $180k for two people, and can afford that somewhat decent apartment.

Over 100k is upper class in Europe. 180k is rich.

My wife´s dad was a simple factory worker at a car manufacturer, but could still buy a flat, car and family holidays back in the day. Something nearly impossible nowadays.

Also, is there a "how to invest"-thread on Gaf somewhere? Really never got into it because everyone is saying "You loose so much in the beginning".

 

[jshackles]

Over 100k is upper class in Europe. 180k is rich.

10 years ago, it used to be considered rich here too.

Unfortunately we have been hit with the deadly combination of gentrification, runaway inflation, and a constrained housing market that's only catering to the ultra-wealthy. The housing market is probably the worst element of this, as I mentioned the high homeless rate above. A new construction home here typically sells for over $1M+, and people are buying them readily. This means builders and developers have no incentive to create low or middle income housing, and there are no jobs in the area that pay enough to afford new housing here (it's all coming in from out of state). There are no new apartment buildings being built, and the result is that rent prices on the existing available spaces, which are aging terribly, are going through the roof.

The only real end result in sight is total collapse. Nobody lower or middle class wants to live here anymore, and are moving off in droves. Now places like Starbucks and large chain grocery stores are shutting down because they can't find workers. The rich people will eventually (probably) not want to live here because they won't have a steady supply of servants to be their maid, walk their dog, prepare their food, etc.

 

[T4keD0wN]

I think most people (especially in us) have been fooled into thinking theyre middle class when in reality they have to actually work to survive which means they are lower class (aka worker class)
The gap between classes has grown a lot. Jeff bezos and someone who has just 50mil usd are nowhere in the same class.
To sum it up: Everyone who works 10h+ is lower class. Those who dont ever have to are middle class. Those who rule and have 10+ figures worth of money are upper class.

Easiest way to measure it is by money since power cannot be measured: Anyone below 5mil worth is lower class. 5-500mil would be middle class. Above 500mil is upper class.
So middle class would be major CEOs or mid-tier business owners, major celebrities and very important politicians.
Essentially people who never have to work again, but still have too little power to be above the law. So their "lifestyle" would easily allow for yachts, multiple mansions, hypercars, owning a dozen building, terrible looking suits and being surrounded by dishonest people. A middle class person doesnt live in the same reality as most, theyre pretty much "demi-gods".

 

[HighPoly]

I think most people (especially in us) have been fooled into thinking theyre middle class when in reality they have to actually work to survive which means they are lower class (aka worker class)
The gap between classes has grown a lot. Jeff bezos and someone who has just 50mil usd are nowhere in the same class.
To sum it up: Everyone who works is lower class. Those who dont ever have to are middle class. Those who rule and have 10+ figures worth of money are upper class.

Easiest way to measure it is by money since power cannot be measured: Anyone below 5mil worth is lower class. 5-500mil would be middle class. Above 500mil is upper class.
So middle class would be major CEOs or mid-tier business owners, major celebrities and very important politicians.
Essentially people who never have to work again, but still have too little power to be above the law. So their "lifestyle" would easily allow for yachts, mansions and hypercars and terrible looking suits.

do you think a magister judje that make 16k per month, could be considered a middle or upper middle class?
well, considering that his wife got a job and make around 4k monthly... 20 thousand dollars monthly for a small family with 2 adults and 2 kids.

 

[Rentahamster]

A miserable little pile of credit card debt.

 

[haxan7]

10 years ago, it used to be considered rich here too.

Unfortunately we have been hit with the deadly combination of gentrification, runaway inflation, and a constrained housing market that's only catering to the ultra-wealthy. The housing market is probably the worst element of this, as I mentioned the high homeless rate above. A new construction home here typically sells for over $1M+, and people are buying them readily. This means builders and developers have no incentive to create low or middle income housing, and there are no jobs in the area that pay enough to afford new housing here (it's all coming in from out of state). There are no new apartment buildings being built, and the result is that rent prices on the existing available spaces, which are aging terribly, are going through the roof.

The only real end result in sight is total collapse. Nobody lower or middle class wants to live here anymore, and are moving off in droves. Now places like Starbucks and large chain grocery stores are shutting down because they can't find workers. The rich people will eventually (probably) not want to live here because they won't have a steady supply of servants to be their maid, walk their dog, prepare their food, etc.

California? It's not that bad where I live. I recently relocated from Northern Virginia (very expensive area) to the Eastern Panhandle of WV, only an hour's drive away, and house prices are at least 30% lower across the board, if not more.

 

[T4keD0wN]

do you think a magister judje that make 16k per month, could be considered a middle or upper middle class?
well, considering that his wife got a job and make around 4k monthly... 20 thousand dollars monthly for a small family with 2 adults and 2 kids.

Thats a good question and very complex to answer, there is a lot of potential in there. I think that position can hold a lot of possible influence, however the power shouldnt be taken into account for a judge in the most ethical scenario, since if things go right it would actually give no advantage, if things go wrong then it should absolutely be considered (i will not consider it for ethical reasons). I am not a lawyer so i dont know if the judges can invest (looking at the state of the world ill presume they do), with that income and potential power it could be possible to become even upper middle class, but definitely not without investments and a little bit of luck (more of avoiding extremely bad luck in this case imo). With just the income alone id consider it upper lower class (early on) and after a certain amount of time passes they would become middle class, but since they earn enough money to live and have more than enough left to invest then realistically they would be middle class.

The more money one has the easier it is to make even more money, but all of this takes time. The point in time is the most important factor and the more time passes the higher id potentially and realistically rank them. As long as they rely on work as the primary source of income they will be lower class (the income is good enough to get to middle class with time) and once they wont or they amass enough wealth they will become middle class. Id definitely say that the odds are in their favour to realistically become lower middle class fairly quickly and the growth can snowball from there. The "true" middle would be nearly guranteed and upper middle class would definitely be within reach for them.

 

[jason10mm]

do you think a magister judje that make 16k per month, could be considered a middle or upper middle class?
well, considering that his wife got a job and make around 4k monthly... 20 thousand dollars monthly for a small family with 2 adults and 2 kids.

Come now, that is CLEARLY upper middle class, if no upper class depending on location. 20k/mo, even after taxes, is enough for a good home, 2 good cars, 401k, eating out regularly, 2-3 decent vacations a year, and toys for the kids. If you are living "paycheck to paycheck" with 20k/mo it's YOU that is the problem, not "the system".

 

[jshackles]

California?

Oregon

I've considered multiple times moving back East where I grew up, houses there are 1/5th the price if not cheaper.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

My wife and I make about 150k in orange county California.

We can't afford

- To have kids
- Can't afford a house. We could theoretically afford a studio condo, but would be house poor
- We have two used cars. Hers is paid off. I still owe 11k on mine


Not looking forward to student loan repayments resuming

 

[Sleepwalker]

Where I live:

Lower class = homeless or functionally homeless. If it's a traditional family, they might be all living in a 500sq ft apartment if they're lucky. Lots of people working "regular" / retail jobs making $15/hr are living in their cars while showering once a week at a homeless shelter so they can stay employed. You work "part time" to the legal upper limit of 38 hours a week, so that your company doesn't have to pay you benefits or give you vacation time. Unlike the 80s and 90s, these aren't high school dropouts, they're typically people with a college education (either associates or bachelors degree). Almost zero upwards mobility. Home ownership is out of the question, because a typical 3 bedroom house here costs nearly $500k which is difficult to achieve on even a combined $30/hr salary. Rent is almost $2,500 a month for the cheapest place, thus the high number of homeless.

Middle class = you make over $100,000 as a single person or a combined income over about $180k for two people, and can afford that somewhat decent apartment. Your rent has more than doubled in the last 5 years. If you're lucky you bought a house 10 or more years ago before the boom, but it's going to be several decades old now and likely small or need a lot of repairs. You can afford basic things like groceries, a car payment or two, and have just a little bit of money left over for things like your hobbies. Making that kind of cash, you probably have some paid time off which is great, but not enough money left over to take a vacation (too expensive) - if you budget, you might be able to afford a domestic trip every couple of years. That being said, you realize that your money is better spent trying to save up to either buy a house or move somewhere else. If you're in a situation where you have a roof over your head, you're likely also going to be supporting your kids / siblings / parents / grandparents / nieces and nephews / close friends, since they would otherwise be homeless without your help (see above). Even though you make so much money, you're likely still living paycheck to paycheck, especially if you're renting.

Upper class = You're statistically over 65. You "worked your ass off" somewhere in California at a job you started in 1985 before retiring 5 years ago with a giant pension or some huge golden parachute. You have tens of millions of dollars in the bank, sometimes more. You own a home here, but you only stay there a few months out of the year because "the winters here don't agree with you". You pay some poor homeless looking motherfucker $15/hr to come clean your house once a week the rest of the time while you're away. You paid over a million dollars for your house in a bidding war, but came out on top (sucks for the other guy). You probably have a nice fishing boat or yacht, that you also pay someone else to maintain or operate for you. You don't work, and your only contribution to society really is that you're bringing your vast fortune into the local economy. You look down on everyone below you, because you think to yourself "why don't they just get a job that pays them enough to live comfortably?"

Jesus christ, America is a dystopia. Burn it down.

 

[AJUMP23]

My wife and I make about 150k in orange county California.

We can't afford

- To have kids
- Can't afford a house. We could theoretically afford a studio condo, but would be house poor
- We have two used cars. Hers is paid odd. I still owe 11k on mine


Not looking forward to student loan repayments resuming

You should consider moving. Lots of places where you live very well on that wage. The housing market is really out of whack right now, but you should be able to buy a home on that income in most places.

 

[jason10mm]

My wife and I make about 150k in orange county California.

We can't afford

- To have kids
- Can't afford a house. We could theoretically afford a studio condo, but would be house poor
- We have two used cars. Hers is paid odd. I still owe 11k on mine


Not looking forward to student loan repayments resuming

JFC...MOVE!

You could make 1/3rd of that and live quite well in Nebraska.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

You should consider moving. Lots of places where you live very well on that wage. The housing market is really out of whack right now, but you should be able to buy a home on that income in most places.

We've talked about it. But we're not sure where we'd go. A lot of the places we considered are pretty bad too.

 

[AJUMP23]

We've talked about it. But we're not sure where we'd go. A lot of the places we considered are pretty bad too.

What industry are you in?

 

[NecrosaroIII]

What industry are you in?

Logistics. My wife is an accountant.

 

[AJUMP23]

Logistics. My wife is an accountant.

Maybe think about the south eastern US.

This is better

Median Home Price by State 2023 - Wisevoter

The median home price varies significantly across the states. California has the highest median home price at $843,800, followed by Hawaii at $715,900 and Washington at $668,400. These states reflect the higher cost of living and desirable locations, contributing to the higher home prices. On...

wisevoter.com

As long as you don't have bankruptcy and bad credit a home loan should be straightforward with your income.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Maybe think about the south eastern US.

This is better

Median Home Price by State 2023 - Wisevoter

The median home price varies significantly across the states. California has the highest median home price at $843,800, followed by Hawaii at $715,900 and Washington at $668,400. These states reflect the higher cost of living and desirable locations, contributing to the higher home prices. On...

wisevoter.com

As long as you don't have bankruptcy and bad credit a home loan should be straightforward with your income.

I've actually thought about Raleigh. Seems nice there.

 

[AJUMP23]

I've actually thought about Raleigh. Seems nice there.

The Tech Triangle there is nice.

 

[HighPoly]

Thats a good question and very complex to answer, there is a lot of potential in there. I think that position can hold a lot of possible influence, however the power shouldnt be taken into account for a judge in the most ethical scenario, since if things go right it would actually give no advantage, if things go wrong then it should absolutely be considered (i will not consider it for ethical reasons). I am not a lawyer so i dont know if the judges can invest (looking at the state of the world ill presume they do), with that income and potential power it could be possible to become even upper middle class, but definitely not without investments and a little bit of luck (more of avoiding extremely bad luck in this case imo). With just the income alone id consider it upper lower class (early on) and after a certain amount of time passes they would become middle class, but since they earn enough money to live and have more than enough left to invest then realistically they would be middle class.

The more money one has the easier it is to make even more money, but all of this takes time. The point in time is the most important factor and the more time passes the higher id potentially and realistically rank them. As long as they rely on work as the primary source of income they will be lower class (the income is good enough to get to middle class with time) and once they wont or they amass enough wealth they will become middle class. Id definitely say that the odds are in their favour to realistically become lower middle class fairly quickly and the growth can snowball from there. The "true" middle would be nearly guranteed and upper middle class would definitely be within reach for them.

Here in Brazil our income is around 22~26k monthly, and despite all those diferences between currency, the convertion hits 5,400 dolars.
that sounds like a below than what an amarican salary for middle class use to be. But I guarantee, we have the same american middle/middle class lifestyle.
Don't ask me how... I think Brazil is cheaper in some areas, that are essential areas, like food, health security for example... I mean, we have a pretty good house for brazillian standars, two good cars, tvs, smartphones, and I speacially like to buy my collectibles like Action Figures, and consoles, games. I'm studying my second university.
This is a curious thing

 

[Robot Carnival]

the middle class always seems more like a made up term to start with. you either work for a living or you have enough money to let others do the work for you.

 

[Aesius]

it really doesn't exist. The middle class has been completely gutted. Either you are a college educated professional making a decent salary (with most of that going into basic upkeep of life) or you are just barely surviving financially.

The days when say a painter or a bricklayer could support his wife and five+ kids (yes) in a peaceful, clean neighborhood with schools that taught those kids well are long, long, long gone.

My wife and I live in an LCOL area, make a combined $200k, and live about the same as my parents who made $50k combined when I was a kid in the 90s. A huge chunk of our expenses is eaten up by daycare for our two boys. When my brother and I were little, we either went to my grandmother's house or my mom stayed home with us, so no daycare costs there. They also bought their house for $50k in the early 80s, and while interest rates were sky-high at the time, they refinanced several times and got lower and lower payments every time.

My wife has a 2022 model car but I'm still driving a 2003 model. Just can't justify the cost of another car payment on top of everything else. We also don't really spend any money on ourselves, it pretty much all goes to bills, food, and kids' stuff (which is much cheaper than you might think, outside of daycare, which is literally another mortgage payment).

 

[jason10mm]

the middle class always seems more like a made up term to start with. you either work for a living or you have enough money to let others do the work for you.

Come now, its pretty well established that the "middle class" DO work, it's just the standard of living is higher than strictly hand to mouth/paycheck to paycheck laborers, but below the "landed gentry" of the upper class. The middle class has always been entrepreneurs, small business owners, white collar office workers, established blue collar professionals, folks with enough money to own a residence, put money aside for savings, and buy some luxury items.

The main thing that changed was the inflation of the standard of living to require two incomes, with the wife going to work.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

I looked up what class we were in for our area and it said we’re upper class and I was just like lmfao. I should be grateful to make what I do but come on.

True, we save money every month, don’t carry credit card debt and only have a mortgage, but that’s because one of our cars is 13 years old, we budget aggressively and took the kids out of daycare which was $2200/mo, mostly because we have family around that can help. We’re not financially stressed at all but it’s definitely from being very on the ball and not because I feel like we’re rolling in money. If I got really sick tomorrow and couldn’t work, it’s not hard to think that we’d be in financial ruin before long. That doesn’t scream upper class to me. But hey we travel a lot.

btw I found out what my brother in law’s take home monthly was because they’re getting a divorce and I about shit my pants. They’ve got two brand new cars and apparently a mountain of credit card debt and his monthly take home is like a third of mine…don’t fucking live off debt people, he’s in the find out phase of FAFO

 

[Blade2.0]

Non-existent.

 

[Happosai]

Where I live:

Lower class = homeless or functionally homeless. If it's a traditional family, they might be all living in a 500sq ft apartment if they're lucky. Lots of people working "regular" / retail jobs making $15/hr are living in their cars while showering once a week at a homeless shelter so they can stay employed. You work "part time" to the legal upper limit of 38 hours a week, so that your company doesn't have to pay you benefits or give you vacation time. Unlike the 80s and 90s, these aren't high school dropouts, they're typically people with a college education (either associates or bachelors degree). Almost zero upwards mobility. Home ownership is out of the question, because a typical 3 bedroom house here costs nearly $500k which is difficult to achieve on even a combined $30/hr salary. Rent is almost $2,500 a month for the cheapest place, thus the high number of homeless.

Middle class = you make over $100,000 as a single person or a combined income over about $180k for two people, and can afford that somewhat decent apartment. Your rent has more than doubled in the last 5 years. If you're lucky you bought a house 10 or more years ago before the boom, but it's going to be several decades old now and likely small or need a lot of repairs. You can afford basic things like groceries, a car payment or two, and have just a little bit of money left over for things like your hobbies. Making that kind of cash, you probably have some paid time off which is great, but not enough money left over to take a vacation (too expensive) - if you budget, you might be able to afford a domestic trip every couple of years. That being said, you realize that your money is better spent trying to save up to either buy a house or move somewhere else. If you're in a situation where you have a roof over your head, you're likely also going to be supporting your kids / siblings / parents / grandparents / nieces and nephews / close friends, since they would otherwise be homeless without your help (see above). Even though you make so much money, you're likely still living paycheck to paycheck, especially if you're renting.

Upper class = You're statistically over 65. You "worked your ass off" somewhere in California at a job you started in 1985 before retiring 5 years ago with a giant pension or some huge golden parachute. You have tens of millions of dollars in the bank, sometimes more. You own a home here, but you only stay there a few months out of the year because "the winters here don't agree with you". You pay some poor homeless looking motherfucker $15/hr to come clean your house once a week the rest of the time while you're away. You paid over a million dollars for your house in a bidding war, but came out on top (sucks for the other guy). You probably have a nice fishing boat or yacht, that you also pay someone else to maintain or operate for you. You don't work, and your only contribution to society really is that you're bringing your vast fortune into the local economy. You look down on everyone below you, because you think to yourself "why don't they just get a job that pays them enough to live comfortably?"

Lower and Middle nearly spot-on. Upper...I'm good friends with many upper class businessmen or women. Most are still working. A few are in their 40's. They don't have a narcissistic view of their fellow man. Have met a few who got there the easy way (piggy backing off their parents business and immediately started the work world as a VP). Also know a few who (not really look down) wonder why so many don't apply themselves more to reach their level of success.

Less than 3% of the founder or CEOs I know are retired. I saw some go their office 7-days when times were tough during the pandemic.

 

[Fuz]

Upper class = You're statistically over 65

Useless as fuck then.

And the lesson is, children: be lazy.

 

[jshackles]

Lower and Middle nearly spot-on. Upper...I'm good friends with many upper class businessmen or women. Most are still working. A few are in their 40's. They don't have a narcissistic view of their fellow man. Have met a few who got there the easy way (piggy backing off their parents business and immediately started the work world as a VP). Also know a few who (not really look down) wonder why so many don't apply themselves more to reach their level of success.

Less than 3% of the founder or CEOs I know are retired. I saw some go their office 7-days when times were tough during the pandemic.

I live in an area that's considered "touristy" and "a destination", which probably makes the upper class here pretty different than they might be at most places. Because of the extremely high cost of living where I'm at, the only people here who are upper class are people who generated their considerable wealth elsewhere and brought it here. I've met countless people here who worked their whole lives at normal jobs so that they could retire here, only to have completely run out of money a few years later and be forced to start working again for minimum wage. It's really sad.

Even someone with a top position here, like the head administrator of the local hospital, wouldn't make enough money to be considered upper class. (don't even get me started on health care here) They might make enough to qualify for a 30 year mortgage on a modest 3 or 4 bedroom home, but wouldn't be able to afford a newly constructed house.

Two thirds of all real estate transactions here happen in cash / lump sums, meaning the buyer doesn't carry a mortgage. If you rub shoulders with the "who's who" about town, you'll hear gossip about "that guy who started and sold off Survey Monkey" not getting along with "that guy who started a company that sold off to Youtube", or "that former CEO of McDonald Douglas" bought another different house here because he didn't like being neighbors during the summertime with "that guy who has 28 New York Times bestselling fantasy novels".

The elite come here to retire (for a few months out of the year) - and it is absolutely to the detriment of everyone else in the region.

 

[SF Kosmo]

it really doesn't exist. The middle class has been completely gutted. Either you are a college educated professional making a decent salary (with most of that going into basic upkeep of life) or you are just barely surviving financially.

The days when say a painter or a bricklayer could support his wife and five+ kids (yes) in a peaceful, clean neighborhood with schools that taught those kids well are long, long, long gone.

Yeah, it's generational to an extent, but if you graduated highschool after 2005, it's pretty much this.

I graduated college and (eventually) worked my way into a good paying professional career, but it took a good decade from when I graduated to really get any professional traction and start climbing the ladder, and by the time I did houses in my area were $700,000 and that dream was gone.

I make good money, far more than my parents ever did, but I still feel like I have less to show for it.

 

[AJUMP23]

Useless as fuck then.

And the lesson is, children: be lazy.

What are you talking about that is when you entrench yourself in government office.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Hard to say because people are in debt so much, you cant really go by what they show (home and car) or by how much money they make. They might have snazzy stuff in plain view, but have giant debt, can barely keep up payments and have a bad credit score to boot.

I have a modest detached home, nice car, the inside of my home is clean and uncluttered. But it's all boring clothes and furniture all closer to Walmart or Sears quality than Crate & Barrel or Saks. I actually bought two golf shirts from Walmart a month ago for $19.99 each. LOL. I dont give a shit. I never spend money on that stuff. So going by that, it might look like I'm doing ok. But in reality I got a stash of cash invested or in real estate. One guy down the street from me has a similar home, but an awesome Corvette stashed in his garage he never drives. But I dont know. Maybe he's broke. Or maybe a closet gazillionaire.

 

[ThatStupidLion]

King bed?

Congratulations you made it.

 

[Robot Carnival]

Come now, its pretty well established that the "middle class" DO work, it's just the standard of living is higher than strictly hand to mouth/paycheck to paycheck laborers, but below the "landed gentry" of the upper class. The middle class has always been entrepreneurs, small business owners, white collar office workers, established blue collar professionals, folks with enough money to own a residence, put money aside for savings, and buy some luxury items.

The main thing that changed was the inflation of the standard of living to require two incomes, with the wife going to work.

maybe I should clarify a little. yes I know "middle class" exists because every politian always talk about it. but to me, the term itself doesn't mean much other than being someone's talking point. depending on the location where you live, the condition that you mentioned that would qualify a person/family as "middle class" can mean very different things. being able to own a house, 2 cars, support a pet and 2 kids in San Francisco is VERY different than being able to do the same thing in Casper Wyoming. the majority of "middle class" Americans these days probably can't even afford to have more than $1000 rainy day cash in case of emergency, which definitely doesn't fit into the "middle class" ideal.

the truth is, if you ask me, "middle class" had always been nothing more than an idea to get people to work towards but doesn't actually have any real meaning to it. back in the old days, the standard "middle class" means you can have your own house that you probably going to pay off after 25~30 years, goes on vacation maybe once or twice a year, and able to afford to have an accident without putting you into bankruptcy. but as time passes by, the economic norm had changed. how companies work had changed. and the dynamic between emoplyer and emoplyee had definitely changed. used to be, you can just come out of school, find a basic white collar job, stick with it, work hard, and you would be able to afford the "middle class" dream. these days, the value of basic white collar job had significantly decreased thanks to technology. the cost of education had gone up and in turns created an unfair playing field. those who's parents are well off would have an advantage over those who're not when it comes to education, which of course, isn't anything new in itself. but this inbalance had gotten bigger and bigger now and that goes for a lot of other things in life too. hell, you said it yourself, the inflation made it so that in order to maintain the "middle class" life style, the wife would have to go to work too. I feel that in itself defeats the whole ideal of "middle class". because by that logic, if both parents and the 2 kids are all working to support this life style, would it also counts as "middle class" if they're living in the same house and life style as what those who you consider "middle class" lives?

in any case, it's just my opinion that the term "middle class" had never been a real thing other than a pretty slogan during election time, at least in the US. I might be wrong by a wide margin. and if that's the case, that's fine too. the most important thing, no matter what "class" you're in, is to have a good time with what you can made do and try to get the best life you can.

 

[GeekyDad]

Well...

This was fun.

 

[Regginator]

The "middle class" are temporarily embarrassed millionaires from the higher-income spectrum of the working class.

 

[jason10mm]

the truth is, if you ask me, "middle class" had always been nothing more than an idea to get people to work towards but doesn't actually have any real meaning to it. back in the old days,

What is this communist nonsense? The "middle class" has existed for a THOUSAND YEARS since merchants, artisans, and craftsmen could own their own property and thus were neither nobility nor serf.

Put in modern economic terms the "middle class" exists between the dirt poor living paycheck to paycheck (or off government dole) and the folks with capital to invest or enough passive income generators to not have to work at all but still maintain a high standard of living.

The "middle class" today often encompasses both partners working because the lifestyle has inflated, not the cost of the basics or wage stagnation. Look at the size of the homes today versus the 40s. Every family member had a computer in their pocket. There is a TV in every room. Cars are far more advanced than they were. The trips are more elaborate, no more roadside motels with the whole family crammed in to see Disney. But easy credit is a trap, that is true.

Some of you guys are just silly. Get the FUCK out of those big cities by the coasts with that insane real estate and be "middle class" in "middle america" and see how easy it can be. Yeah, there aren't 50 hip restaurants in a mile radius, not every concert rolls through, and yah might have to see a cow at times, but trust me, it's worth it

 

[diffusionx]

What is this communist nonsense? The "middle class" has existed for a THOUSAND YEARS since merchants, artisans, and craftsmen could own their own property and thus were neither nobility nor serf.

Put in modern economic terms the "middle class" exists between the dirt poor living paycheck to paycheck (or off government dole) and the folks with capital to invest or enough passive income generators to not have to work at all but still maintain a high standard of living.

The "middle class" today often encompasses both partners working because the lifestyle has inflated, not the cost of the basics or wage stagnation. Look at the size of the homes today versus the 40s. Every family member had a computer in their pocket. There is a TV in every room. Cars are far more advanced than they were. The trips are more elaborate, no more roadside motels with the whole family crammed in to see Disney. But easy credit is a trap, that is true.

Some of you guys are just silly. Get the FUCK out of those big cities by the coasts with that insane real estate and be "middle class" in "middle america" and see how easy it can be. Yeah, there aren't 50 hip restaurants in a mile radius, not every concert rolls through, and yah might have to see a cow at times, but trust me, it's worth it

Except the big cities by the coasts *were* where middle class people lived in prior generations. "just move to Iowa bro" is conceding the point.

The problem isn't that people have "computers in their pocket" - those things are cheap, relatively speaking. TVs are way cheaper than they were in prior generations. All of that is vastly outweighed by the cost of housing and other essentials. My grandpa raised a huge family in Bergen County NJ on one laborer income, go look at housing prices there today. Actually I'll tell you - it's $700K median. The idea that his grandchildren need to scatter in the wind and move to Iowa and South Carolina to have even a semblance of what he did is so destructive to the bonds of family and commmunity. It's horrible.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Some of you guys are just silly. Get the FUCK out of those big cities by the coasts with that insane real estate and be "middle class" in "middle america" and see how easy it can be. Yeah, there aren't 50 hip restaurants in a mile radius, not every concert rolls through, and yah might have to see a cow at times, but trust me, it's worth it

Thats the thing. People want the grand scale of coolness and head office jobs in metro areas, but a lot of people cant afford it but sill stick around as if they are on a leash. Chill out and find a job and modestly priced home in a small town and it can be great. Way back one of sales guys I worked with lived in Saskatoon. His family home cost him $170,000. He wasnt paid as much as a Toronto account manager, but at the time a similar home would probably still be close to a million (now its much worse). At the time, we'd laugh when we'd talk investments on the phone as my condo at the time cost me $320,000 (which he laughed at).

He loved living there. And his wife worked too. Paying off a $170,000 house should be easy street. But trying to pay off a $800,000-1,000,000 house not so easy. Now, a good condo in Toronto is that price.

Its all a mentality game. People assume the best places and standard of living in the city since thats all you see in media. They probably think anyone living in a small place are all dirt broke Deliverance hicks riding tractors and working at a plant making toasters for Walmart. Not true.

 

[jason10mm]

Except the big cities by the coasts *were* where middle class people lived in prior generations. "just move to Iowa bro" is conceding the point.

The problem isn't that people have "computers in their pocket" - those things are cheap, relatively speaking. TVs are way cheaper than they were in prior generations. All of that is vastly outweighed by the cost of housing and other essentials. My grandpa raised a huge family in Bergen County NJ on one laborer income, go look at housing prices there today. Actually I'll tell you - it's $700K median. The idea that his grandchildren need to scatter in the wind and move to Iowa and South Carolina to have even a semblance of what he did is so destructive to the bonds of family and commmunity. It's horrible.

Sooooo, life stays static forever? Of course demographics change. All those retired folks camping in out in what used to be family neighborhoods reduce supply. Population is what, double what it was when your granddad started out?

My point about cell phones is that is a NEW (relatively speaking) cost. The device is anywhere from $100-1000 every few years and the plans are what, $20-50/person? So that is a few hundred/mo that never existed before the 2000s. Same with TV. We had 2 tvs growing up. A family one and a little kitchen one. The times we had cable is was just $20 or so. Long distance calls or dial up internet was of course quite expensive and so were precious and tightly controlled by mom. But now homes just eat a 50-80/mo internet bill and tack on another 50-200 in cable/satellite/streaming. Again, another couple hundred gone.

Are these things absolutely necessary? Nope. 1 family PC with a basic internet plan will do for juniors homework, dads bill paying, and moms shopping. We don't HAVE to be chained to these things. Yet even poor households...there they are.

So you can't really compare 50's-90s living with now, the baked in costs for the drastically improved electronic options is just insane. And it applies to other areas as well, just look at what grocery stores offer now compared to then, and wonder why shit is more expensive, those organic free range grain fed omega3 eggs don't come cheap but that stuff used to be the exclusive provence of expensive grocers or rural farmers markets, now they are everywhere.