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[Men_in_Boxes]

Extraction Shooters are PvP RPGs. They're PvP rogueites.

You start off weak, fight your way through high risk scenarios to level up your characters lethality & abilities...and then ultimately you do this to fight the FINAL BOSS. Your power curve journey all had a purpose, to save the world/universe.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but none of the Extraction Shooters released, and none of the Extraction Shooters soon to be released, have a win condition. Why isn't this final piece a part of the Extraction Shooter formula? To me, it sounds like common sense, but if developers (and players) all over the world don't find this necessary, then I must be missing something. Why don't they have a win condition?

 

[MMaRsu]

A win condition?

The win is making it out the map alive with your stuff.

Sounds to me like you never even played an extraction shooter before.

 

[Tg89]

I don't really see an obvious win condition.

Is the "winner" whoever manages to extract with the most stuff? Whoever gets the most kills? Whoever extracts first? Last? Whoever completed the most quests while in there? Whoever gains the most value while in the match? It's all pretty arbitrary. The losers are well defined, it's the people that don't extract. Winners are harder and a lot of it comes down to the goals the individual had when they went in to begin with.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

A win condition?

The win is making it out the map alive with your stuff.

Sounds to me like you never even played an extraction shooter before.

Adding a victory condition, or a difficult end game goal, wouldn't diminish the value or impact of extracting with your loot alive.

 

[MMaRsu]

I don't really see an obvious win condition.

Is the "winner" whoever manages to extract with the most stuff? Whoever gets the most kills? Whoever extracts first? Last? Whoever completed the most quests while in there? Whoever gains the most value while in the match? It's all pretty arbitrary. The losers are well defined, it's the people that don't extract. Winners are harder and a lot of it comes down to the goals the individual had when they went in to begin with.

Exactly. When I still played Tarkov and I needed a specific item I'd go into a raid to find that item.

Even if I got out with horrible loot, if I still got that item I 'won'

 

[SScorpio]

If you have a finite goal, that at least some of the players will achieve it and stop playing.

Hunt: Showdown is probably the closest to what you are looking for. You can solo or group up and are given goals to accomplish, gathering something, or killing a boss. You get tokens for completing the goals which gives you additional rewards if you successfully extract with them.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Exactly. When I still played Tarkov and I needed a specific item I'd go into a raid to find that item.

Even if I got out with horrible loot, if I still got that item I 'won'

RPG's and Roguelites have this exact scenario. I need the Sword of Truth to progress to the next city. I have to take it off the cities corrupt mayor who's hiding under the castle surrounded by his minions.

Getting the Sword of Truth doesn't require an RPG not to have a final win condition goal. Why would players extracting with the Gun of Truth in an Extraction Shooter mean it can't have a Kefka or Illusive Man?

 

[Kiya's Guard]

A win condition as a campaign finale? Or as a match win? Because extracting alive is already a win, and extracting with loot is extra win. Tarkov has a couple boss characters, and cod dmz also had a couple if i recall. They don't grant you a win, but exclusive loot, and that's the win.

Also, let's say there's a match win condition. So you start the round (in tarkov you can go in an already on progress map) and suddenly there's a popup that you lost everything because someone before you killed a boss (if he won that means you lost) wouldn't that be unfair?

 

[clarky]

Adding a victory condition, or a difficult end game goal, wouldn't diminish the value or impact of extracting with your loot alive.

Then it wouldn't be an extraction shooter, if you needed to do something else other than extract to "win"

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

If you have a finite goal, that at least some of the players will achieve it and stop playing.

I don't think that's really an issue. Roguelites are often designed around repeating the loop after beating the final boss. The gameplay loop, the power growth curve is fun by itself. You could also make it as difficult and rare as the developers need.

Then it wouldn't be an extraction shooter, if you needed to do something else other than extract to "win"

Why would adding a difficult end game goal turn an extraction shooter into a different genre? The extraction process would be just as valuable and intense (more intense actually) as it ever was. It's not going to turn into a new genre just because they grow the loop.

 

[SJRB]

The win condition is not dying, you doofus.

 

[clarky]

I don't think that's really an issue. Roguelites are often designed around repeating the loop after beating the final boss. The gameplay loop, the power growth curve is fun by itself.

Why would adding a difficult end game goal turn an extraction shooter into a different genre? The extraction process would be just as valuable and intense (more intense actually) as it ever was. It's not going to turn into a new genre just because they grow the loop.

Because while you are messing around with your difficult end game goal id just be at da chopper extracting all my loot

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The win condition is not dying, you doofus.

That's the win condition in an RPG and a rogue lite too.

Both genres have a final boss you doofus.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Because while you are messing around with your difficult end game goal id just be at da chopper extracting all my loot

I don't see how that would be an issue. Mercenaries running around with different objectives is already part of the core formula.

 

[clarky]

I don't see how that would be an issue. Mercenaries running around with different objectives is already part of the core formula.

DMZ does/did what you are describing already with the package.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

You win by making it out alive (surviving PvE and/or PvP depending on the game) with an inventory containing the highest value of loot you were able to find. Simple as.
The meta goal is gradually filling your banks, allowing you to buy better gear, adding to the chances of survival and taking more risks for more reward. At the end of a season everyone's stash gets wiped for everyone to start fresh from a level playing field.
This risk and reward game loop is what makes games like these addicting and successful, they don't need an extra 'win condition'.

The Fortnite (Battle Royale =/= extraction looter/shooter) picture and comparisons to PvP RPG and roguelites just make this a unnecessarily confusing. Maybe you should try playing one to get a grasp.

 

[kevboard]

there are newer shooters that basically combine extraction shooters with battle royales.

so they exist.

Dr Disrespect's game Deadrop for example,
or Off The Grid which just came out is also a battle royale mixed with extraction shooter

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Off The Grid has "win condition"

 

[Tg89]

RPG's and Roguelites have this exact scenario. I need the Sword of Truth to progress to the next city. I have to take it off the cities corrupt mayor who's hiding under the castle surrounded by his minions.

Getting the Sword of Truth doesn't require an RPG not to have a final win condition goal. Why would players extracting with the Gun of Truth in an Extraction Shooter mean it can't have a Kefka or Illusive Man?

Better question - why does the game need a win condition?

I feel like this is just some gen z adhd brain shit where you always need a defined goal. The game has an obvious loop as it is, it doesn't need some arbitrary end boss or something.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Because extraction shooters are dogshit.

 

[Bry0]

I don’t really understand, if surviving the match doesn’t count, what about tarkov where you can complete quests and level traders and build up your hideout? Doesn’t completing those count as “wins”?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

DMZ does/did what you are describing already with the package.

What was the package? I played around 20 hours of DMZ when it first launched. Did they add this later?

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

Hunt: Showdown has a boss fight in every match.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Better question - why does the game need a win condition?

Win conditions provide for a more engrossing long term goal. Do you really think Star Wars would be as good if Luke didn't fight Darth Vader & Palpatine? Would Rocky be as good without Apollo Creed? Why do these movies need a dramatic climax? Derp...

You don't have too look around for more than a couple of seconds to realize how the vast majority of single player games, multiplayer games, movies, TV's, books, sports, board games etc have a win condition.

I feel like this is just some gen z adhd brain shit where you always need a defined goal. The game has an obvious loop as it is, it doesn't need some arbitrary end boss or something.

If you think win conditions are a new thing, you might be a boomer who suffers from severe brain fog.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

The “win condition” in extraction shooters is extracting. The victory is getting better loot/stats and living.

Hunt 1896 does have bounty bosses you can choose to engage against and kill to give you bonuses if you extract with the tokens they drop. That’s a little different though because in Hunt you don’t drop in with nothing, you can drop in with whatever weapons and gear you want.

Sure, most games have final bosses but they aren’t needed in extraction shooters.

 

[clarky]

What was the package? I played around 20 hours of DMZ when it first launched. Did they add this later?

The Weapon case, doesn't trigger the win state you are after though, you still need to get out. Or the High value targets like the Chemist.

Like i said if there was an actual win condition then it would defeat the whole purpose of what makes extraction shooters great.

I don't want to be worry about going for a goal or someone else going for it and triggering a loss to fuck up my run on top of an already stressful experience.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You win by making it out alive (surviving PvE and/or PvP depending on the game) with an inventory containing the highest value of loot you were able to find. Simple as.
The meta goal is gradually filling your banks, allowing you to buy better gear, adding to the chances of survival and taking more risks for more reward. At the end of a season everyone's stash gets wiped for everyone to start fresh from a level playing field.

This is the formula for all RPGs and roguelites. Start weak, grow stronger, defeat final boss.

It's really strange how many people seemingly understand the value of a final boss but can't understand how it could benefit a genre like the ES.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

This is the formula for all RPGs and roguelites. Start weak, grow stronger, defeat final boss.

It's really strange how many people seemingly understand the value of a final boss but can't understand how it could benefit a genre like the ES.

Not all extraction shooters follow this formula. And just because genre A has a mechanic, doesn’t mean genre B needs that mechanic.

Roguelikes and RPG’s don’t have enemy players run around trying to kill them. Other players are the final boss in extraction shooters.

 

[March Climber]

Men_in_Boxes Have you played Lethal Company?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Like i said if there was an actual win condition then it would defeat the whole purpose of what makes extraction shooters great.

I don't want to be worry about going for a goal or someone else going for it and triggering a loss to fuck up my run on top of an already stressful experience.

I think you have a rigid, limited understanding of what a victory condition could actually be. It could be ANYTHING the developers create. It could be triggering a final AI boss that only 4% of high level players can beat. It can be extracting with a high value item that triggers a 30 second story cutscene. It can be triggering something in the level that makes your character easy to find and beneficial to kill...if you survive for 10 minutes you get a gold coin.

All a victory condition would have to be is an end game carrot that's compelling and rewarding enough for most players to go after. This genre has season wipes so the win conditions could change / improve as time wears on.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Roguelikes and RPG’s don’t have enemy players run around trying to kill them. Other players are the final boss in extraction shooters.

They do. They're called underpowered enemy AI that you're tasked with defeating to level up your character and advance the story.

 

[clarky]

I think you have a rigid, limited understanding of what a victory condition could actually be. It could be ANYTHING the developers create. It could be triggering a final AI boss that only 4% of high level players can beat. It can be extracting with a high value item that triggers a 30 second story cutscene. It can be triggering something in the level that makes your character easy to find and beneficial to kill...if you survive for 10 minutes you get a gold coin.

All a victory condition would have to be is an end game carrot that's compelling and rewarding enough for most players to go after. This genre has season wipes so the win conditions could change / improve as time wears on.

No I don't, I'm not a mong.

I just told you that DMZ does all that already. I think you have a rigid, limited understanding of extraction shooters.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

They do. They're called underpowered enemy AI that you're tasked with defeating to level up your character and advance the story.

Yeah you’re talking about minions and grunts which a majority of extraction shooters also have. Not the same thing as other living people existing on the map and striving to kill you.

I don’t think you play or understand extraction shooters.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Men_in_Boxes Have you played Lethal Company?

Does it not have a win condition because it creates more compelling game design or does it not have a win condition because only one or two people made it and they had to spend their resources in different areas?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

No I don't, I'm not a mong.

I just told you that DMZ does all that already. I think you have a rigid, limited understanding of extraction shooters.

Then I didn't understand why you said adding a win condition would defeat the purpose of the genre. I don't understand that claim at all considering most other genres include it and it only improves the player experience.

 

[March Climber]

I think you have a rigid, limited understanding of what a victory condition could actually be. It could be ANYTHING the developers create. It could be triggering a final AI boss that only 4% of high level players can beat. It can be extracting with a high value item that triggers a 30 second story cutscene. It can be triggering something in the level that makes your character easy to find and beneficial to kill...if you survive for 10 minutes you get a gold coin.

All a victory condition would have to be is an end game carrot that's compelling and rewarding enough for most players to go after. This genre has season wipes so the win conditions could change / improve as time wears on.

This is eventually going to happen but the genre is still very new so it will take some time before it does.

We are just now starting to see a tiny amount of previews of new games that are blending extraction with other genres. Genre blending is the best thing to occur because the more it happens the more there is a chance of a traditional game dev trying their hand at the genre, like narratively.

Does it not have a win condition because it creates more compelling game design or does it not have a win condition because only one or two people made it and they had to spend their resources in different areas?

A bit of both, but when you play it you realize the extraction win-feeling is equivalent to that of winning big at a casino. There’s a moment where you can walk away and maybe come back to the game weeks or months later, but more people risk it and go ‘one more run’.

 

[bender]

Why don't extraction shooters have blackjack and hookers?

 

[clarky]

Then I didn't understand why you said adding a win condition would defeat the purpose of the genre. I don't understand that claim at all considering most other genres include it and it only improves the player experience.

A win condition is literally that, you do something to "win" In an extraction shooter that would be extracting.

Here you are talking about win conditions that end the game:

Extraction Shooters are PvP RPGs. They're PvP rogueites.

You start off weak, fight your way through high risk scenarios to level up your characters lethality & abilities...and then ultimately you do this to fight the FINAL BOSS. Your power curve journey all had a purpose, to save the world/universe.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but none of the Extraction Shooters released, and none of the Extraction Shooters soon to be released, have a win condition. Why isn't this final piece a part of the Extraction Shooter formula? To me, it sounds like common sense, but if developers (and players) all over the world don't find this necessary, then I must be missing something. Why don't they have a win condition?

But here you change that and basically describe DMZ to a T:

I think you have a rigid, limited understanding of what a victory condition could actually be. It could be ANYTHING the developers create. It could be triggering a final AI boss that only 4% of high level players can beat. It can be extracting with a high value item that triggers a 30 second story cutscene. It can be triggering something in the level that makes your character easy to find and beneficial to kill...if you survive for 10 minutes you get a gold coin.

All a victory condition would have to be is an end game carrot that's compelling and rewarding enough for most players to go after. This genre has season wipes so the win conditions could change / improve as time wears on.

Your first idea goes against the very concept of extraction and your second idea has already been done.

 

[MMaRsu]

OP have you ever played an Extraction shooter before?

 

[Tg89]

Win conditions provide for a more engrossing long term goal. Do you really think Star Wars would be as good if Luke didn't fight Darth Vader & Palpatine? Would Rocky be as good without Apollo Creed? Why do these movies need a dramatic climax? Derp...

You don't have too look around for more than a couple of seconds to realize how the vast majority of single player games, multiplayer games, movies, TV's, books, sports, board games etc have a win condition.


If you think win conditions are a new thing, you might be a boomer who suffers from severe brain fog.

The game has a win condition though. It's just not as defined as you think it needs to be.

It seems like you don't really understand the genre honestly. Have you ever played EFT?

 

[Herbspiceguy]

Nah, that's the whole thing. He should be spending serious time on in the genre to get a better understanding, before even thinking up something like this.

Besides EFT, I wanna give a shout out to Dark and Darker, which is basically EFT meets Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[Griffon]

That's the win condition in an RPG and a rogue lite too.

Both genres have a final boss you doofus.

lol

The GaaS champion not even understanding that the point of GaaS is that it never ends.

League, Dota, PUBG, DayZ and such don't have final bosses either, Tarkov is like that too

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

lol

The GaaS champion not even understanding that the point of GaaS is that it never ends.

League, Dota, PUBG, DayZ and such don't have final bosses either, Tarkov is like that too

Title: Why don't Extraction Shooters have a victory condition?

Griffon : (gibberish)

OP:

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Your first idea goes against the very concept of extraction and your second idea has already been done.

I genuinely have no idea how a "compelling, late game carrot" goes against the very concept of extraction. You're going to need to walk me through that one.

The game has a win condition though.

What is it?

 

[Tg89]

What is it?

Extract with things.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Extract with things.

That's like getting the Sword of Truth in the 2nd town in a JRPG.

 

[realcool]

'Off the Grid' has a win condition. It's third-person PVP, so I'm less inclined to be interested in it.

 

[april6e]

I feel like you explained it extremely poorly but yes, I agree that extraction shooters should have more required objectives before extracting other than simply "collect loot and don't die". Similar to how games like Helldivers 2 can have over a dozen tasks you have to do around the map before you extract.

Also, while we are on this subject, I feel that the extraction genre's focus on PvP is a giant mistake. If Hunt Showdown was co-op PvE like Helldivers, it would be one of the greatest shooters ever. That game with the focus instead being on surviving against difficult eldritch enemies to nab loot and then make it out alive would be amazing. There is a extreme lack of PvE extraction games which is why Helldivers 2 did as well as it did on console.

 

[clarky]

I genuinely have no idea how a "compelling, late game carrot" goes against the very concept of extraction. You're going to need to walk me through that one.


What is it?

There is a difference between a "compelling late game carrot" which lets face it could me anything, and a win/victory condition as your OP suggests.

The definition of a win condition is game ending. In an extraction shooter that would be extracting, not shooting some boss.

 

[Ribi]

You know Hunt Showdown exists right?????

RIGHT?????