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Why I think Dark Cloud is better than Ocarina of Time

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Grand Theft Scratchy

Grand Theft Scratchy

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If I had to choose one PlayStation 2 PlayStation 2 game that captured the awe and wonder of the console, it would have to be Dark Cloud, and though it has been compared to The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I never grew bored of Level-5's then new IP. I fell in love with the atmosphere and also think the lack of voice acting made the cutscenes more immersive like imagining how the characters sound in a book you're reading. I loved exploring the randomly-generated dungeons and collecting the Georama pieces to rebuild towns and upgrading my weapons while fighting enemies. You could quickly switch between different characters that joined you throughout the story to better navigate dungeons which I liked. There also wasn't a big emphasis on solving puzzles, just recovering items used to place in the towns via Georama mode according to the villagers' wishes. Combat is also enjoyable with the occasional QTE sequence during duels. And there are so many great music tracks in the game, Some of my favorites are The Daily Life, Spirit King, Queens, A Sinking Ship, and Factory. Now this isn't to say Ocarina of Time is a bad game. It's okay but I never felt compelled to replay it. I got as far as Dodongo's Cavern before realizing I wasn't enjoying it despite it being hailed as a masterpiece.
 
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Alexios

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
So, nothing in the OP about what makes it better (to you) though? You didn't think this through, did you? I mean wrong opinions are fine to have, you can like Pong better than OoT too if that's your thing but clearly here you wanted a clickbait title yet had next to nothing to say. You don't even show real passion for the game. Meh.

Also, games can be great and still not lend themselves to replayability. You already know all the puzzles, all the boss weak points and tactics and all the events that made you go wow, not everything has to have endless replayability to still be "better" than something that may have more of that worked in. Hence sequels are a thing.
 
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Phunkydiabetic

Phunkydiabetic

Banned
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Keihart

Keihart

Member
I mean, maybe, the game is great....but it's also a completly different gen you know? 98 vs 2001 💁‍♂️
If we are gonna go that route, Breath of the wild it's better than both.
 
ULTROS!

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
I've played both without the nostalgia factor (Zelda OoT on the 3DS back in 2010 and Dark Cloud on the PS4 back in 2014-2015).

Let's just say I liked Dark Cloud more. Sure OoT is much more polished but I had more fun with Dark Cloud because of the city building.
 
Werewolf Jones

Werewolf Jones

Member
By the time I got the black dude with the stick this game was boring as shit. Got up to the Genie second form and ran out of resources. Couldn't be fucked starting over and grinding. As much as I love to shit on Ocarina of Time, this ain't it.
 
Grand Theft Scratchy

Grand Theft Scratchy

Banned
Al3x1s said:
So, nothing in the OP about what makes it better (to you) though? You didn't think this through, did you? I mean wrong opinions are fine to have, you can like Pong better than OoT too if that's your thing but clearly here you wanted a clickbait title yet had next to nothing to say. You don't even show real passion for the game. Meh.
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Do you mean to say different opinions are fine to have because wrong opinions doesn't make sense?

Anyway, Dark Cloud and Ocarina of Time are both action-adventure games and feature real-time combat along with exploring dungeons which you can do with different characters you meet throughout the story whom make it easier to navigate the dungeons as well as fighting enemies. What does Pong have to do with any of that?

I do admit I might have rushed the OP and I apologize for that because it does sound a little dry reading it back. I'm a little slow when typing out my thoughts.
 
Grand Theft Scratchy

Grand Theft Scratchy

Banned
Keihart said:
I mean, maybe, the game is great....but it's also a completly different gen you know? 98 vs 2001 💁‍♂️
If we are gonna go that route, Breath of the wild it's better than both.
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I grew bored of Wind Waker too if that game is a better comparison for you, but you can't be serious about Breath of Wild. It released 16 years after Dark Cloud versus the three years between Ocarina of Time and Dark Cloud.
 
Keihart

Keihart

Member
VysePSU said:
I grew bored of Wind Waker too if that game is a better comparison for you, but you can't be serious about Breath of Wild. It released 16 years after Dark Cloud versus the three years between Ocarina of Time and Dark Cloud.
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Yeah, i was exagerating. And yes, Dark Cloud is better than Wind Waker to me too.
But i really think there is no point in comparing OoT to Dark Cloud when they are on very different systems and by the time Dark Cloud was out, games had already learned from OoT.
 
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bronk

bronk

Banned
Dark Cloud is fucking fantastic. I just did a replay few months ago. It's just a joy to play. Weirdly I didn't like Dark Cloud 2 at all.
 
Bakkus

Bakkus

Member
Yeah, and Forsaken Fortress in Wind Waker has better stealth mechanics than Metal Gear Solids

Nightrunner said:
OoT is a relic anyway. There's not much about that game that holds up similar to many other games of the PS1N64 era.
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Let's see: music, pacing, overworld and dungeon design, set pieces, story, characters, puzzle solving satisfaction....at this point i'm wondering what does not hold up. 25fps, maybe? But that's something that must people are fine with for such an old 3D game.
 
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Nightrunner

Nightrunner

Member
Bakkus said:
Yeah, and Forsaken Fortress in Wind Waker has better stealth mechanics than Metal Gear Solids


Let's see: music, pacing, overworld and dungeon design, set pieces, story, characters, puzzle solving satisfaction....at this point i'm wondering what does not hold up. 25fps, maybe? But that's something that must people are fine with for such an old 3D game.
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LMAO story, set pieces and characters in OoT? You must have dreadfully low standards I guess. They were fine for the time and as far as puzzle solving satisfaction goes if you've ever actually played a real puzzle game like Myst then the simplistic puzzles of OoT won't impress you. I'm not praising Dark Cloud but when I played OoT I realized it had aged terribly unlike say the original TLoZ or ALTTP. Old 3d game with all the jank that comes with it is the perfect way to sum up OoT IMO. Zelda games in general don't have good stories either but hey you do you.
 
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Alexios

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
There's nothing janky about OoT though, it's a really polished experience that still holds up despite pioneering tons of things as far as 3D action gameplay goes, they got them right the first time around which is nuts. It's even fully playable in an age we're used to dual analog shit yet it's without.

You don't have to like it but it's not janky, it plays intuitively despite incorporating so many different elements. The only outdated part is the frame rate but the 3DS remaster fixes it (while remaining 99% faithful yet appealing to modern gamers just fine, a testament to the original's quality).

And it's a good thing it doesn't have tons of elaborate cut scenes and everything but keeps the gameplay in focus most of the time and quickly gets back to it when it doesn't, not a bad thing, lol.

Plenty games stll have problems getting that kind of melee combat or boss fights with weak points and stuff to feel decent despite having so many others to look at for research and implementation ideas when OoT didn't have that luxury.

Granted everyone tries (and usually fails) to copy the Souls games these days but even those have clear influences from OoT with very similar lock-on/attack/dodge fighting, just going for more tactical depth than a simpler game that doesn't focus on punishing technical difficulty in that manner.

The Myst comparison is quite off and frankly stupid, the games you say aged well don't have that crazy puzzles or stories or anything on that level either so clearly you understand games can convey that sort of thing in a way that fits them and is satisfying as a whole without going super deep.

Throwing a Myst style puzzle and MGS story telling would just kill the pacing in games that clearly aren't trying to be like either of those series, it's really weird to even suggest that.

OP still doesn't say anything about how this game's better than OoT though, just the reasons the guy liked the game, much of it could even apply to OoT (no voice acting for dialogues and such for example).
 
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Nightrunner

Nightrunner

Member
Al3x1s said:
There's nothing janky about OoT though, it's a really polished experience that still holds up despite pioneering tons of things as far as 3D action gameplay goes, they got them right the first time around which is nuts. It's even fully playable in an age we're used to dual analog shit yet it's without.

You don't have to like it but it's not janky, it plays intuitively despite incorporating so many different elements. The only outdated part is the frame rate but the 3DS remaster fixes it (while remaining 99% faithful yet appealing to modern gamers just fine, a testament to the original's quality).

And it's a good thing it doesn't have tons of elaborate cut scenes and everything but keeps the gameplay in focus most of the time and quickly gets back to it when it doesn't, not a bad thing, lol.

Plenty games stll have problems getting that kind of melee combat or boss fights with weak points and stuff to feel decent despite having so many others to look at for research and implementation ideas when OoT didn't have that luxury.

Granted everyone tries (and usually fails) to copy the Souls games these days but even those have clear influences from OoT with very similar lock-on/attack/dodge fighting, just going for more tactical depth than a simpler game that doesn't focus on punishing technical difficulty in that manner.

The Myst comparison is quite off and frankly stupid, the games you say aged well don't have that crazy puzzles or stories or anything on that level either so clearly you understand games can convey that sort of thing in a way that fits them and is satisfying as a whole without going super deep.
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Eh the game has aged poorly mechanically. Combat in the original TloZ, LttP, Oracle games etc. and even Wind Waker+ is perfectly serviceable. OoT feels dross. Plenty of games pioneered lots of different things but to argue they haven't been improved upon is asinine at best. Did I criticize OoT for not having elaborate cutscenes (I don't think so) and the statements you're making about melee combat are again really weak. MML used lock on before OoT but it improved on it just like further games improved on that. Bosses with clear weak points is an idea that goes back to 2d gaming genius.
Here's a few problems I have with the game: Really simplistic combat. Forgettable story, world and characters, see Soul Reaver if you wanna see a well realized world + characters ofc not without its own jank/flaws like too many block puzzles but nuh ma large empty field and mu horse. Puzzles that are really simplistic or annoying (first 3d game growing pains and all). Choppy framerate notwithstanding OoT is definitely not this holy grail of timeless perfection people like to pretend it is. You like the game so much you think it's infallible and I don't but what I don't understand is this need to prove the game is so great instead of y'know just accepting that early 3d games have aged somewhat and that isn't a crime (it comes with the medium).
 
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Alexios

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Nowhere did I argue they haven't been improved, to use straw man arguments is asinine. You criticize that I say OoT does this or that well without explaining how yet you've not explained anything beyond how you find stuff "dross", "poor" and other such adjectives that explain nothing beyond being opinions. Nowhere did I call the game infallible, perfect or anything similar either, you're not explaining why thinking OoT is good is wrong beyond how you subjectively hate it or find this or that better, you just constantly use straw man arguments and ad hominem, nothing of substance.
 
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Nightrunner

Nightrunner

Member
Al3x1s said:
Nowhere did I argue they haven't been improved, to use straw man arguments is asinine at best. You criticize that I say OoT does this or that well without explaining how yet you've not explained anything beyond how you find stuff "dross" and other such adjectives that don't explain shit either.

Nowhere did I call the game infallible or anything else either, you're not explaining why I'm wrong, just how much of a fanboy I am with more straw man arguments and ad hominem.
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Maybe read my post again? Dismissing everything with muh strawman argument shows you aren't really interested in any criticism. You said polished and pioneering I explained how the game wasn't. I never asked for a Myst style puzzle just saying that people praising brain dead puzzles in a game with really simplistic ones must have low standards for puzzles (nice edit there btw). I'm not asking for a MGS style story Soul Reaver had a similar setup and minimal cutscenes and a far better realized world/story/characters IMO.
 
Moses85

Moses85

Member
OP, you made my day. I can’t Stopp laughing. This video looks so ridiculous.

Even to name it in the header with oot is an insult to OOT.
 
Yoshi

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Randomly generated dungeons automatically disqualify it. Human-designed levels are way superior over random stuff. And no puzzles? Why even compare it to Zelda then? Puzzles are an integral (and awesom) part of the Zelda gameplay.
 
Geki-D

Geki-D

Banned
Yoshi said:
And no puzzles? Why even compare it to Zelda then? Puzzles are an integral (and awesom) part of the Zelda gameplay.
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There were set rules to get the best results when designing the towns, clues you had to pick up on and stuff. You could say those were the games puzzles. But yeah, the generated dungeons do drag the game down, for the most part they were just a bunch of long corridors and empty rooms (also fuck the water survival mechanic). If it wasn't for that, and the dungeons were actually hand designed with puzzles in them then I'd say the game is easily better than OOT. OOT feels pretty barebones & safe, Dark Cloud actually had a load of intricate and original gameplay mechanics. I never did play Dark Chronicles, the sequel. Not sure if it fixed stuff or not.

Otherwise if you're looking for a game like OOT but far superior on PS2 then hit up Okami.
 
Gavin Stevens

Gavin Stevens

Formerly 'o'dium'
People who don't like Zelda 64 are too young to understand the pant pissing excitement of seeing that damn trailer come on the TV with the music from Conan. You have no idea what it was like to open that shit up on Christmas morning. You have no soul, and I wish a thousand warts on your penis. Good day.
 
DrJohnGalt

DrJohnGalt

Banned
Apples and oranges.

Dark Cloud is great (I preferred the sequel, however) and OOT is great as well. But are they really even the same type of game?

I did a replay of Dark Cloud last summer and it's still got the charm, a decent story, and the village builder aspect was fun, but the inverted sticks and grinding for items to unlock levels killed it for me.

Zelda games are hit-or-miss, but OOT was solid. Not my favorite, but certainly not close to the worst. It's got more story, more dynamic gameplay, and is less grindy than Dark Cloud.

That said PS2 > N64 :lollipop_winking:
 
Grand Theft Scratchy

Grand Theft Scratchy

Banned
Al3x1s said:
OP still doesn't say anything about how this game's better than OoT though, just the reasons the guy liked the game, much of it could even apply to OoT (no voice acting for dialogues and such for example).
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I've already explained why I like the game more than Ocarina of Time only to have you respond by saying I have the wrong opinion. I'm not here to change anyone's mind about a classic N64 title but it's discouraging when the immediate response from people is to laugh at me for having a different opinion.
Moses85 said:
OP, you made my day. I can’t Stopp laughing. This video looks so ridiculous.

Even to name it in the header with oot is an insult to OOT.
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It's a video game, not a person. What is this mob mentality?
 
Shifty

Shifty

Member
VysePSU said:
I've already explained why I like the game more than Ocarina of Time only to have you respond by saying I have the wrong opinion. I'm not here to change anyone's mind about a classic N64 title but it's discouraging when the immediate response from people is to laugh at me for having a different opinion.

It's a video game, not a person. What is this mob mentality?
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The thread title says "Why I think Dark Cloud is better than Ocarina of Time", but your opening post only covers why you liked Dark Cloud so much. It doesn't really touch on Ocarina outside of saying it's still a good game.

Ergo, you could probably have done this thread as "Why Dark Cloud is great" without invoking the big-ticket classic that is Ocarina of Time and the associated ire from people that feel strongly about it.

As it stands, there's not really an argument to rebuke, so 'lol no' is the best you're gonna get out of most posters that disagree. Plus there's the stuff about the games being generations and genres apart, which would probably be wise to address if you're looking to draw a direct comparison between them.

I think calling 'mob mentality' is a bit much, particularly considering that the original title was somewhat clickbaity.
 
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