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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
ElleryJamesRoberts said:
Could you give me a quick detailed update on where you think the PS5 is going to fall specification-wise? Price aswell.

Need it for curiosity
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DoYxys4.gif
 
ResilientBanana

ResilientBanana

Member
JAMMA said:
I agree that Microsoft studios are going to do this. I just have no information one way or another if it’s not the way all studios will be doing this per Microsoft policy. I have not seen said Tweets, can you produce them?

They have however given their views on their vision at Microsoft for supporting all Xbox consumers going forward.

I really would love the hard quotes to support that this is Microsoft Studios ONLY. They don’t exist that I’ve seen.



Let’s say I have 2 neighbors, we’ll call one Bob and the other Joe.

If Bob comes out and states that he has signed a contract with the city to guarantee that he will keep his his trees trimmed that are on his front yard for at least a year, and we’ve heard nothing specifically from or about whether Joe has done the same, we can’t say with confidence that Joe doesn’t also have to trim his own trees for at least a year too.

We simply have no idea if Joe has also signed a contract to trim his trees or not just because Bob has done so.
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These are probably some of the worst speculation/ assumptions I’ve ever read. Why assume something without any proof of it? Microsoft flat out said first party. They have no say on what third parties do and if they did less third parties would work with them.
 
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it_wasn't_me

it_wasn't_me

Banned
darkinstinct said:
If he knew, he would've broken his NDA, which is a stupid idea if people know who you are. So I'd say he doesn't have target specs but just heard about them. It's also not impossible to undersell target specs. It's easy enough to develop for 8 TF and then have 12. It's only a problem if you have to do it the other way around. But we are entering purely speculative territory now. Facts are: In June the only GPU devs could use to develop towards Xbox Series X specs was a 5600 XT with 8 TF.
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Facts are: devs also can develop games for Vega cards and later scale up for Navi cards. And pricesly Matt referred to that. IIRC read somewhere that first PS5 dev kits were with Vega GPU. And also before first PS5 dev kits, devs already started develop next-gen games according to given spec sheets. Year in advance. Later will try to find Matt's posts
 
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DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
it_wasn't_me said:
Facts are: devs also can develop games for Vega cards and later scale up for Navi cards. And pricesly Matt referred to that. IIRC first PS5 dev kits were with Vega GPU. And also before first PS5 dev kits, devs already started develop next-gen games according to given spec sheets. Year in advance
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I also believe that is where the original 13TF number came from (their rough performance target?) before RDNA kits came later in the year.
 
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Vinex

Vinex

Neo Member
DeepEnigma said:
Devkits and debugs do connect to the PS Store and can download anything “for free.”

At least that is how it was with my time at SSDS years ago.
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Well, I heard that the PS4 devkits weren't connected to PSstore, don't hold me to this, that what I just heard long time ago.
 
Neo Blaster

Neo Blaster

Member
Sycomunkee said:
These are probably some of the worst speculation/ assumptions I’ve ever read. Why assume something without any proof of it? Microsoft flat out said first party. They have no say on what third parties do and if they did less third parties would work with them.
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You've got to consider thirds are the ones normally making crossgen games every start of generation, so they can risk less with a bigger install base. By the time Xbox first party studios begin releasing next gen only titles is exactly the time thirds will do so.
 
ResilientBanana

ResilientBanana

Member
Neo Blaster said:
You've got to consider thirds are the ones normally making crossgen games every start of generation, so they can risk less with a bigger install base. By the time Xbox first party studios begin releasing next gen only titles is exactly the time thirds will do so.
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Now that’s a rational way of thinking. I think the conspiracy theory of Microsoft forcing some form of imaginary policy is not the right way to go about things like some people are pretending to be the case.
 
BGs

BGs

Industry Professional
darkinstinct said:
I think a better example would've been to just take what we have. If Lockhart is 4 TF and PS5 is 9.2 TF and XSX is 12 TF - that's a huge gap. But in that case Lockhart as the 1080p machine would hold back XSX (the 4K machine) while PS5 could just drop resolution to 1080p and use the full 9.2 TF for that. Games would look much better on PS5. If they added something along the lines of DLSS to reach a 4K output, XSX is done for. There are smart approaches to reach a goal and there are brute force approaches to do so.
Click to expand...
I think not a better example.

I don't think it's right to put examples using that information. Does not fit reality.
 
ResilientBanana

ResilientBanana

Member
JAMMA said:
No, they have not flat out said that. You’re full of it. Matt Booty has said

“As our content comes out over the next year, two years, all of our games, sort of like PC, will play up and down that family of devices”

“We want to make sure that if someone invests in Xbox between now and [Series X] that they feel that they made a good investment and that we’re committed to them with content.”

This is ALL that’s been said. Repeating myself here, that could mean Microsoft studios specifically or Xbox as a whole.

You’re full if it, man. You’re literally a liar. That’s unfortunate, but I can’t prevent you from posting anything that’s factually incorrect with such bold claims. it’s all on you.

Your assumptions or reading between the lines is not evidence of facts. Good day.

I’ll leave you with some wisdom that I recently read:

“Why assume something without any proof of it?”

oh wait, that was you.
Just now.
Your advice... take it.
Click to expand...

Well here’s the verge article about it.

www.theverge.com

Microsoft says Xbox Series X won’t have exclusive first-party games at launch

The console will be backwards compatible and support Xbox Play Anywhere
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

Update January 10th, 6:50PM ET: Clarified that Microsoft is referring to first-party games published under Xbox Game Studios, and not all games on the Xbox platform
Click to expand...

thismeinteil said:
And all that TF talk lead to Stadia's instant success that rivaled the PS4 launch. Oh, wait...
Click to expand...

This isn’t even apples to oranges. This is like Apples to plywood.
 
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best

thicc_girls_are_teh_best

Member
Ralf said:
PS5 is NOT 13.8TF. Only hardcore fanboys may belive in this.....

Of course. PS5 is 14TF, HBM2, ultra SSD, dedicated RT procesor and super cooling solution. Dream more....
Click to expand...

Based on what we know, agreed. The 13.8TF claim is probably coming from that Japanese article (that didn't mention sources btw), but it was comparing PS5's Navi capabilities to Radeon VII's GCN TF capabilities. It wasn't actually saying PS5 is 13.8TF Navi. If you read the wording, it says "comparable to 13.8 TF Radeon VII", or something like that. Here is the direct translated quote:

The approximate absolute performance value is determined by the manufacturing process to be adopted and the size of the chip (the number of transistors), so in light of the above, the GPU of the PS5 "is at best about 13.8 TFLOPS of Radeon VII. "Below" appears dim.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The bolded part is where it leaves room to speculate they are speaking of relative architectural performance here, not actual Moore's Law direct numerical comparisons. Just throwing "of" in there can really change things. Granted, it is a translated article, and something could've been lost in translation, but the rest of the article reads pretty concisely and seems like a fair and accurate translation even knowing the differences in language.

However, for PS5 to actually be 13.8 TF Navi, this would imply (best case/most optimal scenario) a 60CU chip with all CUs turned on and clocked @ 1800MHz (upper limit of Navi's sweetspot). Only conflicting part with that is there's only evidence of Arden with 56-60CUs and that is seemingly the XSX chip (also all Oberon-related benchmarks and leaks point to a 256-bit memory bus which would seem too small/narrow for a chip that size which could easily hold a 384-bit GDDR6 bus; the memory bandwidths reported are in range with a 256-bit bus and 14Gbps or 16Gbps chips)

So basically, if Navi is 20-25% more efficient than GCN, that article was most likely speculating PS5 to be somewhere in the range of 10.35 - 11.04TF Navi...

...which is EXACTLY in line with the speculation that Oberon might have about 48 active CUs (as per some chip die estimates and graphics for the APUs drawn up with measurements, which was posted on Era a while back), as that can provide a range of 10.448 TF Navi - 11.0592 TF Navi, within Navi's sweetspot 1.7GHz - 1.8GHz range. It also lines up with what another poster mentioned a while ago in PS4 Pro's GPU having a block of CUs disabled in regression testing for PS4 compatibility.

Basically, that article lines up very well with:

>Chip die estimates speculating an additional 12CUs on Oberon that were disabled (possibly for reasons either related to regression tests or bugs in the silicon that need to be fixed if they haven't already)

>Consistent GPU benchmark datamines (very likely the chip is still Oberon-related going this late into the cycle, high probability of a future GPU benchmark datamine for final Oberon chip showing 48 active CUs) (also some of the later steppings have been for bug fixes to the memory bandwidth, hinting possibility one reason we haven't seen a benchmark with more CUs active yet could be due to bugs that have to be worked out of the silicon).

>Github leak (the chip is very likely still Oberon or a future Oberon stepping; Github data already had other blocks such as RT disabled since RT would not be needed for regression testing of PS4 and PS4 Pro compatibility)

>Posters such as VFX_Veteran and R600 (who have speculated closer to the 9-10 TF Navi range; the Japanese article's comparison to Vega would line up with VFX, R600 etc's upper end limit if Navi delivers a 25% efficiency over GCN)

>Insiders such as OsirisBlack, KleeGameFan, Heisenberg etc (they have been providing 12/13TF number estimates for both systems and differentials of +/- 10%, but these estimates seem more in line with having used GCN as the basis of reference, i.e 12-13 GCN TF could be delivered via a range of 9TF Navi - 10.4TF Navi, and 48 CUs @ 1700MHz gives around 10.448TF Navi)(Keep in mind some insiders have at times also "accepted" a 9-10TF Navi range even after going 12/13 shortly after the XSX reveal at TGAs, when other leaks were coming out)

So essentially, ATM the most probable scenario seems to be a 48CU PS5 providing anywhere between 10.4 TF Navi - 11 TF Navi, and a 56CU XSX providing around at least 12.1 TF Navi (but potentially up to 12.9 TF), all estimates based on Navi's sweetspot range. The more realistic range would be PS5 pushing near 11 TF Navi and XSX pushing closer to 12.1 TF Navi (a differential of ~ 10%) , but it's still possible you could get a PS5 with 10.4 TF Navi and an XSX with 12.9 TF Navi (which would be a differential of ~ 24%). However there are likely going to be several factors that prevent that scenario from actually happening.

EDIT: Now to be fair, it's also possible XSX's speculated claims could have been conflating direct numerical comparisons with architectural references too, i.e rather than being 12TF Navi, XSX could actually be closer to 9 TF Navi (architecture improvements over GCN would give around 12 TF GCN performance). However, estimates of the APU size would suggest that there is more than enough room for around 52-56 active CUs, if not slightly more, and to reach 9TF Navi with that number the GPU would have be severely underclocked.

Perhaps at some point it was underclocked due to silicon bugs and early phase testing, but with that active number of CUs it would not have any problem reaching 12TF Navi at the low end of Navi's sweetspot. At the very least, XSX would be able to provide PS5's speculative low-end for TF performance (10.448), which in Navi, is still quite more than 9 TF Navi and therefore easily "more" than 2x the X.

Yet Phil very clearly said "2x" seemingly as an exact measurement, and an APU the size XSX's is estimated to be at, would not need to underclock itself so low to only deliver 9 TF Navi. So that is main reason why many feel the "2x of X" claim is in reference to 12TF Navi.
 
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RaySoft

RaySoft

Member
scie said:
Hey guys,

I was thinking about the case of the XSX and some things don´t add up. For example the ports on the back are in the middle of the machine. Most ports are soldered directly to the mainboard. When you think about the case, you will came up with something like this:



  • I don´t think the ports are soldered on a riser card. It would increase the cost to produce instead of using one single board
  • You can clearly see, where the bluray drive will be. Just flip the case
  • the PSU doesn´t have to be massive. You can get a 750W SFX PSU in 12,5cm x 6,4cm x 10cm size, so it can be easily at that position
  • the cooling block can also be a massive size like 10cm x 10cm x 15cm given the case size of 30cm x 16cm x 16cm
  • I think on top will be a fan pulling hot air out
BUT all those things leave a massive amount of unused space in the case, which is odd. If they went with a traditionally designe their console would be smaller!

What do you think about that?

scie
Click to expand...
Your "waste of space" is where the other cooler block is located. That's why the mainboard is situated nearly in the middle, so they can cool the APU from both sides.
 
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D

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
iamvin22 said:
I'm pretty sure both Nintendo and Sony also use Taiwan and Japan for manufacturing as well as China.
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Doesn't matter. Many parts will be produced in China (and Taiwan), Japan would only be for final assembly. It all depends on when the outbreak peaks and if the manufacturers can go through their backlog of orders since early February in time for the ramp-up of console production. Assembly of those should start around August, so you are looking at parts production starting in June. Right now there will be a 14 day backlog, that should be easy enough to work through in three months. But if the virus keeps going all the way through February and into March, the number of consoles available at launch will be substantially lower than planned. Even if the parts could be produced outside of China, the capacities are long planned. You can't just shift to another country.
 
TherapistGaymer

TherapistGaymer

Banned
joe_zazen said:
I will give Timdog this: he makes money from his superfanboy status.
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Which I'm sorry to say but it's so weak. He mistakes Sony vs Microsoft for the NFL or UFC. Ugh I can't stand that man's passive aggressiveness. He has a heart too, but damn does he literally act like he's part of a cult. Funny thing is Xbox are clearly wanting to move away from consoles and there is no reason for him to care about wanting more power or the PS5 to fail. I think eventually all gaming will eventually do this but damn it's such a reliant way to be codependent on an internet connection. Microsoft is literally telling everyone we want to reach billions. It's becoming their main focus. So I just dont understand power talk at this point. I've owned Xbox and Playstation. I just like more 65% single player/ 35% multiplayer experiences, so yes I want Sony to have power to push those awesome cinematic experiences. I'm just not a dude who barks at other people through a headset chasing a dopamine rush in a loop. I compete with myself before others so my point is that Timdog is just barking and manboy cheerleading for a brand a bit too hard and it's not so sexy lmao. We all should want healthy competition not one to slay the other. Last gen Microsoft did exactly what they are doing now just adding more power. I still look foward to getting the PS5 and Series X if I just don't build a PC first since now a PC is the better out of the two. Sorry guys so long - it's a Sunday morning.
 
TherapistGaymer

TherapistGaymer

Banned
HeisenbergFX4 said:
Dunno it could be looked at as either dog is about to get eaten and doesnt realize it or

The dogs doesnt care whats going on around him as the big bully keeps yelling turn around and look at me and when the dog does the bully runs to hide.
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So true man lmao. Most of the time though when a tamed dog acts like that it's because it has been trained, secure in itself, or completely less threatened by the pouncing bear that has to demonstrate its strength. This is fun we should all talk like this in the forum with funny gif s to lighten the mood! Lol
 
Rim

Rim

Member
DeeThaDogg said:
Still doesn’t explain why he didn’t go through it in the first place if he was so sure about the validity of his information.
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I'm just honestly asking lol
I don't know how it works.

But I do agree that he should. Since he been wrong many times in the recent times.
 
S

scie

Member
raysoft76 said:
Your "waste of space" is where the other cooler block is located. That's why the mainboard is situated nearly in the middle, so they can cool the SPU from both sides.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I thought about that, but do they really need to cool from both sides? I haven´t seen an APU yet which needed cooling from both sides and even the cooling block on top side can be massive in size, given the dimensions of the case. It makes no sense to put a cooling block there to cool the APU from the other side, you need access through the mainboard on which the APU is soldered on. So you can´t cool the APU from that side.

If the mainboard is situated nearly the middle and there is a cooling block in my "waste of space" what is it cooling? The memory? No, it will be soldered on the same side as the APU. The only thing I can think of at the moment would be the SSD, but even than, you don´t need so much cooling. A "bigger" headspreaer would be sufficient.
 
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