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[MiguelItUp]

I've seen a bunch of valid criticism from much better reviewers. Unfortunately, a large portion of this review isn't since he's flat out creating a lot flaws that aren't there, it has nothing to do with opinions at that point.

As a result the review comes across as bratty, and considering some of the clips of his twitch playthrough I've see thrown around well...it looks like the review was pretty watered down in comparison. But, to be fair it's certainly not the first time of seen "brattiness" surrounding this game's discourse, and it certainly won't be the last.

This honestly sounds like you just don't like him as a reviewer, and that's fine. I think the flaws he pointed out are incredibly valid, and has everything to do with opinions, his personal opinions. That's the whole point of a review.

I don't think it comes off as bratty as well. They played it live with a Twitch audience, so of course it's going to give off a different vibe than someone quietly talking into a microphone about their opinion on the game. But the opinion on it all is still very much the same. The people that didn't throw TLOU2 into a 5/5 or 10/10 (or anything close) category all shared the same sentiments and opinions. Which shouldn't be a surprise, especially at this point. EVERYONE praised its graphics, music, audio, etc. Well, and rightfully so. The divide is with the story, direction, writing, and characters.

I've never been a gigantic Joe fan, but I still watch his stuff occasionally. But if you watch this review and your take away is "bratty" I feel like that's a result of a different opinion or even bias.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

You can’t prove or disprove “bad writing” as in all arts beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn’t matter if there is logical consistency or whatever if a story runs people the wrong way they get to call it “bad” and for them they are right.

People just need to accept that not everyone thinks the same way about art. You may think you have “an objective opinion” but lol if you do then you are fooling yourself.

 

[Senua]

lol his reaction to the sex scene is something that i can expect from a 10 years old boy not a grown ass man

I think it's cos Abby kinda looks like a man lol

 

[GymWolf]

I think it's cos Abby kinda looks like a man lol

Probably a mix of things, but he is clearly disturbed by the sex scene existing in the first place.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

I think it's cos Abby kinda looks like a man lol

Also because sex is forbidden in all games, you are called a Man baby if you want Lara Croft to have big tits, but hey here is a full frontal fuck scene, cos it gets a woke pass. Imo it’s more about the double standard than anything.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Didn’t get a chance to watch the review yet, but in this modern day of entitled and complain about everything gamers, I think a 6/10 based on the details I’m hearing in this thread is low for TLOU2. Oh well, it’s Joe’s opinion though, so that’s fine. I really enjoyed it and don’t think it deserves all the hate it receives. I just hate that now things like story and writing are seemingly more important than gameplay, fun and graphics. Sure, some things could of been better in the story and writing, but holy crap, I definitely feel that I see a lot of overreacting everywhere online.

Most modern gamers imho don’t truly know what a legitimately horrendous game really is. You hating on DOA6 or SF5, eh? Let me introduce you to a little broken gem called Shadow: War of Succession on the 3DO.

 

[Saruhashi]

You can’t prove or disprove “bad writing” as in all arts beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn’t matter if there is logical consistency or whatever if a story runs people the wrong way they get to call it “bad” and for them they are right.

People just need to accept that not everyone thinks the same way about art. You may think you have “an objective opinion” but lol if you do then you are fooling yourself.

I think there are some objective standards in writing, film making etc.

Usually a work has to be extremely good to go off well established tracks and come back with something great.

It's why stuff like The Room is so spectacularly bad.
They're breaking all of the rules but absolutely none of it works.
So it goes all the way out to "so bad it's good" territory.

Kind of like if at the end of Lord of the Rings Gandalf stopped and said "hahaha I had the One Ring all along, Frodo has a fake" then pulled his face off to reveal it's actually Boromir underneath and then he kills everyone. Roll credits.

That would be objectively bad writing. Some audience members might be like "what a goddamn twist, I loved it" but at the end of the day it's still bad writing.

Storytelling has been around for so long that there are pretty well established conventions and standards.
Doesn't mean that these can't be bent and broken but 9 times out of 10 any attempt to do so will result in bad results.

I think the best way I would describe it is that, while the emotional reaction to a story is subjective, there are objective standards of quality in the actual crafting of the story.

 

[Alebrije]

The game is great in a lot of aspects but for a strong oriented story game I agree that deserves a 6 or 7 qualification.

Also for the ones saying people does not know what a good story is because someone did not like TLOU2 story , well stories as wines are the best depending of your tastes. For me os not about the dark / depressing world that Ellie build around her is how the writters included hours of useless story in order to explain it. the climax of the story is to soon te rest is basically a road to oblivion with a silly ending. If the idea was to be empathic with Abby I bet a lot of people did not care so much about her...and this also translated to Elli.

Also the game takes so much time to reach the ending that a lot of players did not care about the final stages like the Santa Barabara plot. It seems that they did not know how to end the story and like those music bands that end thier songs just slowy reducing the volume until nothing sounds...that us how TLOU2 ended....

 

[Yoboman]

Imagine thinking professional gaming sites are more beholden to game publishers for early review copies than Youtubers are on pandering to their audiences who finance them to such a point their entire existence both online & offline is based on Patreon & views.

This whole idea that Youtubers are just inherently more honest is utterly ridiculous.

A lot of these Youtubers would go down in flames if they deviated from the sign posted dogma of their fan base

Just check the backlash to dunkey being like "yeah was pretty good"

 

[Clear]

To be honest all the character motivations seem well thought through, its just that a whole load of key points aren't adequately highlighted, and there are structural issues with the game's flow and construction as a whole that really exacerbate these issues.

The plain truth is that many people calling it "bad writing" actually don't have much skill with or understanding of the craft. That they use such a blunt, imprecise dismissal is indicative of them being unable to really articulate why it didn't work for them

 

[Saruhashi]

Imagine thinking professional gaming sites are more beholden to game publishers for early review copies than Youtubers are on pandering to their audiences who finance them to such a point their entire existence both online & offline is based on Patreon & views.

This whole idea that Youtubers are just inherently more honest is utterly ridiculous.

Oh god. We actually agree on something.

Though I think it does depend on the Youtuber.

Skill Up and ACG definitely seem to do their own thing and don't particularly seem like they pander to their audience or to the bigger publishers.

 

[nowhat]

I'd personally be impressed to see them outright refuse review copies but I think that's a bit unrealistic.

Uhh, ACG did in this case? Hence his review coming after the release of the game.

 

[Yoboman]

What I disagree on with Joe is Joel's death - I think that was fine. I think if ND actually wanted to subvert expectations there, then Joel would've lived - I swear everyone called him dying the moment the game was announced. It's a natural conclusion to his character arc. He was already very lucky to make it to the age he did, given the shit he pulled, in that kind of world. But it's pretty much everything afterwards that I had the issues with. I didn't really enjoy any of the new side characters, there were far too many conveniences in the story to drive it forward and the incredibly on the nose attempts at making Abby likable. Abby's part of the game didn't feel natural at all, the writers drew way too many similiarities between her and Ellie, making her feel more like a fictional creation rather than a real person. What I liked about TLOU 1 is how understated and "real" it felt, despite the setting. TLOU 2 on the other hand, you have a pregnant woman on either side, both main characters lost a father figure, Abby and Lev speedrun a bond very very similiar to Joel and Ellie's from TLOU 1 in the matter of 2 days (it took Joel and Ellie several months).... shit, even the fucking dog - you killed this one specific dog in a brutal manner in a QTE as Ellie, then 30 mins later you learn that this dog belonged to Abby's crew and she was super cute and everything. Like yeah come on. I get it. Why does it need to be so hammered in? To me, all this actually achieved the opposite of the intended effect.

I actually ended up liking TLOU 2 more than I thought I would based on the leaks, but I always figured the greatest challenge of this narrative would be to make the player empathic towards Abby, and for me and I think several others it just didn't really work. i didn't really care wether she lived or died in the end, personally, because I just didn't care about her all that much in the first place.

This is one of the better criticisms I've read and I totally agree, I definitely rolled my eyes at the parallel of both sides having a pregnabg character and killing them is bad. That felt so hamfisted

And I like the idea of an Abby and Lev parallel relationship. But yeah speedrun is a good way to put it. Like the idea is good in theory but it'd be better serviced over a long period and let our mind fill in the gaps like the first game. Here its a bit like "you gonna die for this kid you met 2 days ago?"

 

[GymWolf]

Imagine thinking professional gaming sites are more beholden to game publishers for early review copies than Youtubers are on pandering to their audiences who finance them to such a point their entire existence both online & offline is based on Patreon & views.

This whole idea that Youtubers are just inherently more honest is utterly ridiculous.

You are perfectly right, both journalist and youtubers are mostly trash when it comes to reviewing videogames.

 

[Saruhashi]

To be honest all the character motivations seem well thought through, its just that a whole load of key points aren't adequately highlighted, and there are structural issues with the game's flow and construction as a whole that really exacerbate these issues.

The plain truth is that many people calling it "bad writing" actually don't have much skill with or understanding of the craft. That they use such a blunt, imprecise dismissal is indicative of them being unable to really articulate why it didn't work for them

Bullshit.

If we're talking about Angry Joe specifically then the dude has been reviewing games for at least a decade and has grown an audience of hundreds of thousands for his reviews.

To say that he has no skill or understanding is just utter nonsense.

I think we could at least agree that no game is 100% perfect?
So to some degree or another each game is open to criticism?

Your issue seems to be with how that criticism is articulated.

But you seem to then get confused and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
"This criticism is poorly articulated and can therefore be dismissed."

This is just another poor tactic being deployed to defend this game.

Oh, his criticism is blunt and imprecise so he doesn't understand the craft and so the 6/10 review is invalid. Game is still 10/10! Victory!

Of course, we can also agree that no reviewer is without fault also.
Maybe it's a bad review.
That's fine.
Criticism itself should be open to criticism.

Just seems like you think you've got this bulletproof tactic for defending the game which is "you used the wrong worlds to criticize the game so you don't understand the craft so your negative comments are invalid".

Next you'll be telling us we need to be prize winning writers before we can point out that someone else's writing is shit.

 

[Saruhashi]

Uhh, ACG did in this case? Hence his review coming after the release of the game.

Sorry, my bad. Will edit.

 

[Fbh]

If there are spoilers I'm not going to watch until I finish it.
So far 11 hours in I'm really liking it. I'm kinda curious to see how bad the second half is because that's the one that seems to make everyone hate the game.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Pretty much confirms what I thought about the game and why I am not going to play it. Sounds like an ultra depressing story that I don't really want to get involved with. Maybe I'll play a heavily discounted PS5 release.

 

[Azurro]

The best part of the review is Joe going "pregnant lady, wtf are you doing here?! Why are you pressing your belly against the ledge?!", the game really went insane with the strong independent woman bit here.

 

[Strategize]

This honestly sounds like you just don't like him as a reviewer, and that's fine. I think the flaws he pointed out are incredibly valid, and has everything to do with opinions, his personal opinions. That's the whole point of a review.

I don't think it comes off as bratty as well. They played it live with a Twitch audience, so of course it's going to give off a different vibe than someone quietly talking into a microphone about their opinion on the game. But the opinion on it all is still very much the same. The people that didn't throw TLOU2 into a 5/5 or 10/10 (or anything close) category all shared the same sentiments and opinions. Which shouldn't be a surprise, especially at this point. EVERYONE praised its graphics, music, audio, etc. Well, and rightfully so. The divide is with the story, direction, writing, and characters.

I've never been a gigantic Joe fan, but I still watch his stuff occasionally. But if you watch this review and your take away is "bratty" I feel like that's a result of a different opinion or even bias.

Acting like Mel just willingly put herself on the frontline rather than simply being a medic being transferred to another base isn't valid, it's just flat out wrong.

Acting like Abby doesn't have any internal conflict with being bad when it's practically beaten over your head with dream sequences and characters calling her out, and not undertsand it being a big reason as to why she protects Lev and Yara isn't valid. Again it's just flat out wrong.

These are two examples of things I'm talking about, if you want to see more go to page 1. These aren't opinions, they're just things he either missed or made up. There have been other reviewers have done a much better job at explaining their dislike without this kind of ignorance, and this is a guy with over 3 million subs.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

It's just Angry Joe's opinion. I agree with some of his takes and disagree with others. In the end, they're just that. Takes. His opinion.

I wonder if Youtube likes are an indication of a video's content being quality or not. I remember at one times, social media likes were a huge thing.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Acting like Mel just willingly put herself on the frontline rather than simply being a medic being transferred to another base isn't valid, it's just flat out wrong.

Acting like Abby doesn't have any internal conflict with being bad when it's practically beaten over your head with dream sequences and characters calling her out, and not undertsand it being a big reason as to why she protects Lev and Yara isn't valid. Again it's just flat out wrong.

These are two examples of things I'm talking about, if you want to see more go to page 1. These aren't opinions, they're just things he either missed or made up. There have been other reviewers have done a much better job at explaining their dislike without this kind of ignorance, and this is a guy with over 3 million subs.

A person's opinion on anything isn't "wrong" especially when there are other opinions out there that share the same view. But even if they didn't, they're still opinions, there's no right or wrong opinion. Just ones that people do or don't agree with, that's it.

If he missed or "made them up" then so did every other streamer, influencer, or YouTuber that said something very similar. Again, I don't feel he's ignorant, but that's just my opinion. I don't think you went into the review feeling positive about him in the first place, so I'm not surprised by your conclusion.

All in all the guy has 3 million subs because he's an entertainer and people enjoy his content in its entirety. Which is more than just reviews.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

Hey guys, look, it's a Suicide Squad fan telling us what good writing is.

Hey guys, look, a game attempting to have a movie style of writing and absolutely failing at it.

Ironic, because the gameplay is the best part about it. Now all it needs is MP.

 

[JORMBO]

Agree with a lot of his review. I didn’t really like the game much. I wasn’t a huge fan of the first one but would place it as an 8/10 game. This one I would rank around 5/10. The only things I really liked about it were the big combat levels and graphics. Everything else was trash.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Agree with a lot of his review. I didn’t really like the game much. I wasn’t a huge fan of the first one but would place it as an 8/10 game. This one I would rank around 5/10. The only things I really liked about it were the big combat levels and graphics. Everything else was trash.

Basically same experience for me. I thought TLOU was solid, but I thought the story, writing, and characters were amazing. The gameplay for me was fine. For TLOU2 it basically swapped, haha. The story, writing, and characters were meh. But the gameplay was like the previous game, with some minor improvements. Feels too long as well IMO, and like it dragged a bit too much. By the end of it, it really does feel like a, "let's just see the credits already" experience. At least for me.

 

[Strategize]

A person's opinion on anything isn't "wrong" especially when there are other opinions out there that share the same view. But even if they didn't, they're still opinions, there's no right or wrong opinion. Just ones that people do or don't agree with, that's it.

If he missed or "made them up" then so did every other streamer, influencer, or YouTuber that said something very similar. Again, I don't feel he's ignorant, but that's just my opinion. I don't think you went into the review feeling positive about him in the first place, so I'm not surprised by your conclusion.

All in all the guy has 3 million subs because he's an entertainer and people enjoy his content in its entirety. Which is more than just reviews.

Okay? Then yes, anybody that said shit like that is also just straight up wrong. There's ways to express your distaste that doesn't include spreading some false information.

"I don't like the ending because I feel it's unsatisfying because Ellie still lost everything despite doing the right thing. A Sequel could fix that, but that not this game." That's an opinion. Here's a "plot hole" that's actually not but I didn't know, is just misinformation.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

You can’t prove or disprove “bad writing” as in all arts beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn’t matter if there is logical consistency or whatever if a story runs people the wrong way they get to call it “bad” and for them they are right.

People just need to accept that not everyone thinks the same way about art. You may think you have “an objective opinion” but lol if you do then you are fooling yourself.

I disagree. There is definitely objectively bad writing. That doesn’t mean one can’t use it as a muse to project or infer some thing greater than the original work but that doesn’t mean the mechanics of the muse isn’t flawed.

It just means a greater meaning can be derived from drivel. By many accounts the plot devices, pacing and organization in this game convey a Sloppy edit. The problem with this is The directors cut was provided So this is the vision.

 

[Breakfast at Noon]

Probably a mix of things, but he is clearly disturbed by the sex scene existing in the first place.

I just find CG characters having sex just fucking weird myself, maybe he's the same.. it's just off.

 

[Nico_D]

I think too there are some "rules" to qualify good writing. Those rules have been broken many times since Aristotheles, like by Samuel Beckett. In my opinion Waiting for Godot is a bad play mostly because I don't think it works technically as it goes against dramatic rules of a "good play". Hence, I think it is badly written.

Yet it is widely respected and many people love it. And I can't tell them they shouldn't. In my opinion it is in the light of the very old and still working dramatic rules, objectively badly written play.

 

[GymWolf]

I just find CG characters having sex just fucking weird myself, maybe he's the same.. it's just off.

I get that, but his reaction was way over the top, i know it's his shtik but he looks like a childish moron tbh.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

A person's opinion on anything isn't "wrong" especially when there are other opinions out there that share the same view. But even if they didn't, they're still opinions, there's no right or wrong opinion. Just ones that people do or don't agree with, that's it.

If he missed or "made them up" then so did every other streamer, influencer, or YouTuber that said something very similar. Again, I don't feel he's ignorant, but that's just my opinion. I don't think you went into the review feeling positive about him in the first place, so I'm not surprised by your conclusion.

All in all the guy has 3 million subs because he's an entertainer and people enjoy his content in its entirety. Which is more than just reviews.

People keep comparing this to The Last Jedi, so I'll hover round that airport for this comparison.

Spoiler

You say an opinion "can't be wrong" especially if others espouse the same one. But, for an example... after TLJ came out one critique that got passed around was that "DJ shouldn't have know Holdo's plan" even though the film clearly shows him listening to Poe tell Finn the plan. Or there's the one where people got upset about the sacred Jedi texts being burned... even though the film shows Rey has them on the Falcon.

So, in a sense I agree this game is similar to The Last Jedi, it gets a lot of criticism from people not really paying attention.

Spoiler

These are no different from outright lies telling us that Joel told Abby's group x amount of info when Tommy told them everything. Or telling us Abby has no remorse over what she did.

Does not paying attention to a narrative count as a valid opinion?

 

[Azurro]

People keep comparing this to The Last Jedi, so I'll hover round that airport for this comparison.

Spoiler

You say an opinion "can't be wrong" especially if others espouse the same one. But, for an example... after TLJ came out one critique that got passed around was that "DJ shouldn't have know Holdo's plan" even though the film clearly shows him listening to Poe tell Finn the plan. Or there's the one where people got upset about the sacred Jedi texts being burned... even though the film shows Rey has them on the Falcon.

So, in a sense I agree this game is similar to The Last Jedi, it gets a lot of criticism from people not really paying attention.

Spoiler

These are no different from outright lies telling us that Joel told Abby's group x amount of info when Tommy told them everything. Or telling us Abby has no remorse over what she did.

Does not paying attention to a narrative count as a valid opinion?

You are really shook by Joe's review. His points are fine, there's nothing wrong with them, the skits are a bit exaggerated for humor purposes.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

You are really shook by Joe's review. His points are fine, there's nothing wrong with them, the skits are a bit exaggerated for humor purposes.

You guys might need better arguments than this.

 

[Clear]

Bullshit.

If we're talking about Angry Joe specifically then the dude has been reviewing games for at least a decade and has grown an audience of hundreds of thousands for his reviews.

To say that he has no skill or understanding is just utter nonsense.

DId I say anything specifically about Joe? No I did not.
Did I say everyone calling it "bad writing" is ignorant of the art and techniques of fiction writing? No, I actually wrote MANY in reference to general commentary on the internet.

Work on your reading comprehension. It undermines your credibility when debating this particular topic don't you think? I mean your failure to parse my short post doesn't reflect well on your perspicacity in dissecting the writing of a 20+ hour game.

I think we could at least agree that no game is 100% perfect?
So to some degree or another each game is open to criticism?

Your issue seems to be with how that criticism is articulated.

But you seem to then get confused and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
"This criticism is poorly articulated and can therefore be dismissed."

I've written many posts on the subject of TLOU2 on this forum, and at no point have I asserted a belief that its flawless and above criticism. In fact I've stated repeatedly my belief that its storytelling has major issues.

My point is that making blunt pronouncements like "the writing is bad" is mostly worthless. All I am getting from it is that the respondant didn't like the story or characterization, and honestly that doesn't mean shit to me!

You want me to care, you want me to discuss, EXPLAIN why you feel a specific thing is badly written.

Is that in any way, shape or form unreasonable?

This is just another poor tactic being deployed to defend this game.

Oh, his criticism is blunt and imprecise so he doesn't understand the craft and so the 6/10 review is invalid. Game is still 10/10! Victory!

Of course, we can also agree that no reviewer is without fault also.
Maybe it's a bad review.
That's fine.
Criticism itself should be open to criticism.

Just seems like you think you've got this bulletproof tactic for defending the game which is "you used the wrong worlds to criticize the game so you don't understand the craft so your negative comments are invalid".

Next you'll be telling us we need to be prize winning writers before we can point out that someone else's writing is shit.

This is not about this game, its about people like you making sweeping pronouncements without anything to back their assertions up. Its not helpful or informative or useful in furthering discussion.

You don't need to be a prize-winning author, you just need to put forward a cogent argument.

Which requires more than just saying something is "bad writing"!

 

[JCK75]

I think what people are missing is that Sony and ND have people afraid to be honest, they are going hard after anyone being critical of their games lately and this is a big deal.
The game is not a 10/10 by any standard

 

[GymWolf]

Don't bring that piece of crap without redeeming qualities of tlj to defend a good game like tlou2 please and thank you.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

I went to Twitch for the first time. To watch Angryjoe play TLoU2. You can hate the game or you can love the game. You can all agree, he played the game like SHIT. Its painful to watch some of these people play games. Does streaming lower your skill by 60 percent or something?

Its also weird the moment Joel dies people shut off and hate the game. I guess people take it really hard when some macho gets beatup by some female? Or they just arent used to a game not pandering? Anyways I hated the game, 9/10. Needs some editing.

 

[Saruhashi]

DId I say anything specifically about Joe? No I did not.
Did I say everyone calling it "bad writing" is ignorant of the art and techniques of fiction writing? No, I actually wrote MANY in reference to general commentary on the internet.


Work on your reading comprehension. It undermines your credibility when debating this particular topic don't you think? I mean your failure to parse my short post doesn't reflect well on your perspicacity in dissecting the writing of a 20+ hour game.

I've written many posts on the subject of TLOU2 on this forum, and at no point have I asserted a belief that its flawless and above criticism. In fact I've stated repeatedly my belief that its storytelling has major issues.

My point is that making blunt pronouncements like "the writing is bad" is mostly worthless. All I am getting from it is that the respondant didn't like the story or characterization, and honestly that doesn't mean shit to me!

You want me to care, you want me to discuss, EXPLAIN why you feel a specific thing is badly written.

Is that in any way, shape or form unreasonable?


This is not about this game, its about people like you making sweeping pronouncements without anything to back their assertions up. Its not helpful or informative or useful in furthering discussion.

You don't need to be a prize-winning author, you just need to put forward a cogent argument.

Which requires more than just saying something is "bad writing"!

"In fact I've stated repeatedly my belief that its storytelling has major issues."

So, uh, bad writing, then?


Maybe, just a thought, not everyone is as concerned as you about using the exact terminology or demonstrating their perspicacity in dissecting the writing of a 20+ hour game.

Maybe it's possible that "bad writing" is a short-hand that many people can understand?

If my friend tells me the "writing" in Star Wars Episode 9 is bad then I know what he means.
I don't get up on my high horse acting like a smug cunt because he didn't use the big boy words.

Who the fuck are you to dictate how exactly people should talk about this or any other subject?
"Reeeee your comment isn't helpful or informative."
Don't be a prick.

I guess we'd all better put on our good pants and bring some wine the next time we ever want to talk about a Naughty Dog game.
Maybe partake of a nice cheese board while we discuss how Druckman expertly explains that violence begets violence.
Holy fuck! It broke new ground!

Hahaha. Remember when Naughty Dog taught us lessons that are as old as The Bible? Then we smelled our own farts? Jolly good times!

You know damn well what people mean when they say "bad writing" and if you wanted to I'm sure you could press them on it. Instead of acting like a little, thesaurus wielding, bitch.

 

[Saruhashi]

Please don't bring that piece of crap without redeeming qualities of tlj to defend a good game like tlou2 please and thank you.

Now, now. "Piece of crap without redeeming qualities" is a very shallow analysis that is not helpful or informative for the discourse here on NeoGAF.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

I don't think the feelings neil wanted to convey was meant to lead people fo tearing up the discs lmao

If everyone that bought the disc tears it up. They would make making a killing.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

To be honest all the character motivations seem well thought through, its just that a whole load of key points aren't adequately highlighted, and there are structural issues with the game's flow and construction as a whole that really exacerbate these issues.

The plain truth is that many people calling it "bad writing" actually don't have much skill with or understanding of the craft. That they use such a blunt, imprecise dismissal is indicative of them being unable to really articulate why it didn't work for them

I think you are misjudging people. The story could retain all the plot points, be told differently in terms of structure through a better editing process and be a point or two higher.

Hell having Abbie look like an female MMA fighter and not a female body builder would give the game a half point for better aesthetics which also a part of good writing in a visual medium.

 

[Captain Hero]

This is funny and I really enjoyed the comedy in this review .. I like Joe but this one was the poorest review ever it seems he was in a hurry to hit this game hard , I agreed with some points but this is not a professional one ..

I get it killing Joel like that is just unbelievable but crushing the game like a kid who didn’t get what he wants ! This is not what I expected

 

[GymWolf]

Now, now. "Piece of crap without redeeming qualities" is a very shallow analysis that is not helpful or informative for the discourse here on NeoGAF.

Yeah i'm sorry, i was a bit too gentle, next time i'm gonna use more strong terms to describe that giant turd that single handedly killed any interst in the saga for milions of people

 

[Saruhashi]

People keep comparing this to The Last Jedi, so I'll hover round that airport for this comparison.

So, in a sense I agree this game is similar to The Last Jedi, it gets a lot of criticism from people not really paying attention.

Does not paying attention to a narrative count as a valid opinion?

A big problem here is that you aren't really doing much more than deriding people who don't like the game.

First you were doing it with Angry Joe to basically have a run at invalidating the entire review,
Now it's claiming that people simply aren't paying attention.

Either way it amounts to trying to invalidate criticisms by suggesting that the people making them are dumb and so can be dismissed right away.

I'll give you credit for not going down the "entitled manbabies" route but it's still the same kind of tactic.

 

[Clear]

"In fact I've stated repeatedly my belief that its storytelling has major issues."

So, uh, bad writing, then?

Writing is part of it, but we're not talking about a book. We are talking about a game where a lot of the narrative is driven visually and the gameplay affects pacing and tone.

This should be obvious, but evidently you are none too bright....

...Snip

You know damn well what people mean when they say "bad writing" and if you wanted to I'm sure you could press them on it. Instead of acting like a little, thesaurus wielding, bitch.

Haha.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Lmao, I don't get it.

I mean, its an Angry Joe review and he's voicing his opinion on the things he doesn't agree with. Y'all seem to know about Joe and his schtick, so none of this should be a surprise to you. But he even mentions in his review that he gave the previous game a 10/10 which he doesn't throw around frequently at all. People are saying he's acting "bratty" or "childish", but I don't see that at all. Are you just saying that because his opinion is different than yours? Cause that's what it feels like, lol.

To me I see someone that's actually incredibly disappointed considering how much he loved the previous game. He was clearly passionate about it. Which is really the echoing sentiment and opinions with those that weren't the happiest with the game had.

It's really just a person's opinion, and that's it. There's no real reason to attempt to see it for more than what it is. I really don't understand the rage that comes with these reviews from people that are clearly huge fans of the game.

My understanding from what I've seen is that, if you really loved the game then there is absolutely no "negative" or "mediocre" scored review that you'll agree with. That's it, and that's fine.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

A big problem here is that you aren't really doing much more than deriding people who don't like the game.

First you were doing it with Angry Joe to basically have a run at invalidating the entire review,
Now it's claiming that people simply aren't paying attention.

Either way it amounts to trying to invalidate criticisms by suggesting that the people making them are dumb and so can be dismissed right away.

I'll give you credit for not going down the "entitled manbabies" route but it's still the same kind of tactic.

I didn't call anyone dumb, what does not paying attention have to do with intelligence? Often it's the more intelligent minds that wander like that. But yes, there are criticisms I can invalidate if they're NOT TRUE given the evidence present in the game. If someone is mad because

Spoiler

Joel told strangers where he lived and offered them to come by

their problem is with something that didn't actually occur.

 

[Saruhashi]

Writing is part of it, but we're not talking about a book. We are talking about a game where a lot of the narrative is driven visually and the gameplay affects pacing and tone.

This should be obvious, but evidently you are none too bright....

Haha.

"Writing is part of it"

So "bad writing" is a valid criticism then?
Glad we could... ahem... Clear that up.

Why would criticism need to incorporate EVERY aspect of the game just because it's a game?

I think Shadow of the Colossus could be a great experience. It's a great concept with amazing world building and character design with a thoughtful and impactful narrative. However the controls and the gameplay in my opinion are horrific and this is why I do not like the game.

One very bad aspect ruined the entire package for me.

So just because some of the narrative is driven by visuals or because the gameplay affects pacing and tone doesn't mean that I have to forgive bad writing.

OK, it's not the whole game but it can still be bad enough to ruin the whole game.

If writing is part of it, which you openly admit, then bad writing can ruin part of it and if part of it is ruined then there you go. 5 or 6 out of 10 is understandable.

I can kind of understand it from your perspective.
"The game validated my sense of superiority, ten out of ten".

So it must offend your sensibilities to see the plebs with their "unhelpful" and poorly expressed opinions give the game a lowly 6 out of 10.

 

[Saruhashi]

Lmao, I don't get it.

I mean, its an Angry Joe review and he's voicing his opinion on the things he doesn't agree with. Y'all seem to know about Joe and his schtick, so none of this should be a surprise to you. But he even mentions in his review that he gave the previous game a 10/10 which he doesn't throw around frequently at all. People are saying he's acting "bratty" or "childish", but I don't see that at all. Are you just saying that because his opinion is different than yours? Cause that's what it feels like, lol.

To me I see someone that's actually incredibly disappointed considering how much he loved the previous game. He was clearly passionate about it. Which is really the echoing sentiment and opinions with those that weren't the happiest with the game had.

It's really just a person's opinion, and that's it. There's no real reason to attempt to see it for more than what it is. I really don't understand the rage that comes with these reviews from people that are clearly huge fans of the game.

My understanding from what I've seen is that, if you really loved the game then there is absolutely no "negative" or "mediocre" scored review that you'll agree with. That's it, and that's fine.

"My understanding from what I've seen is that, if you really loved the game then there is absolutely no "negative" or "mediocre" scored review that you'll agree with. That's it, and that's fine."

Such an excellent comment.

I think a lot of people actually do understand this though and that's why you see a shift towards building strawmen and trying to invalidate the negative reviewers, to some extent.

It's kind of like how the Joker movie was getting positive buzz from critics and nerds were getting hyped for the movie so there was a push to portray it as "a movie for incels" and start hinting that there might be violence in the theaters when the movie releases.

They couldn't undo the good reviews and they couldn't deny that some people would see this as an excellent movie and from the trailers alone you knew it was going to be a high quality production so instead they tried to take a run at a negative spin with "well even if it is a good movie what kind of person would even want to watch a movie such as this?" Then suddenly Joker was "a movie for angry white men."

We all know that no game is perfect.
So we all know that eventually someone will lay all the flaws out and they'll be just out there for all to see.
Buuuut what if we get in ahead of that and try to poison the well by implying that naysayers "didn't pay attention enough" or "aren't being helpful or informative"?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

"My understanding from what I've seen is that, if you really loved the game then there is absolutely no "negative" or "mediocre" scored review that you'll agree with. That's it, and that's fine."

Such an excellent comment.

I think a lot of people actually do understand this though and that's why you see a shift towards building strawmen and trying to invalidate the negative reviewers, to some extent.

It's kind of like how the Joker movie was getting positive buzz from critics and nerds were getting hyped for the movie so there was a push to portray it as "a movie for incels" and start hinting that there might be violence in the theaters when the movie releases.

They couldn't undo the good reviews and they couldn't deny that some people would see this as an excellent movie and from the trailers alone you knew it was going to be a high quality production so instead they tried to take a run at a negative spin with "well even if it is a good movie what kind of person would even want to watch a movie such as this?" Then suddenly Joker was "a movie for angry white men."

We all know that no game is perfect.
So we all know that eventually someone will lay all the flaws out and they'll be just out there for all to see.
Buuuut what if we get in ahead of that and try to poison the well by implying that naysayers "didn't pay attention enough" or "aren't being helpful or informative"?

Why don't you respond to what people actually say instead of talking around what they say and creating your own straw men? If you were willing to engage honestly the straw men you create might fall right apart.