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[Keihart]

Need a tissue?

gross, go do that in the bathroom or get a room.

 

[Yselacrey00]

So he read all the fucking spoilers and knew all the story before playing the game and he's surprised he didn't like it? No shit dude. Where's the build up? It's line me reading the end of a book and then complaining I didn't like the rest because I know how it ends. It's like watching GoT last first.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

So he read all the fucking spoilers and knew all the story before playing the game and he's surprised he didn't like it? No shit dude. Where's the build up? It's line me reading the end of a book and then complaining I didn't like the rest because I know how it ends. It's like watching GoT last first.

They actually found in a study that more people enjoyed a story if they already knew the ending.

Spoiler alert: spoilers make you enjoy stories more

Did someone spoil the next episode of "Game of Thrones"? They might have done you a favor.

www.universityofcalifornia.edu

 

[Yselacrey00]

They actually found in a study that more people enjoyed a story if they already knew the ending.

Spoiler alert: spoilers make you enjoy stories more

Did someone spoil the next episode of "Game of Thrones"? They might have done you a favor.

www.universityofcalifornia.edu

Maybe some people. But you just have to watch Joe's playthrough. He's complaining since the beginning that Joel is going to die and that you have to play with Abby and that she's going to walk out alive, etc etc etc. He even walks out when Joel scene is about to come up. How can you review a game and expect to line it if you're acting like a child don't wanting to play ir nor even see it?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Maybe some people. But you just have to watch Joe's playthrough. He's complaining since the beginning that Joel is going to die and that you have to play with Abby and that she's going to walk out alive, etc etc etc. He even walks out when Joel scene is about to come up. How can you review a game and expect to line it if you're acting like a child don't wanting to play ir nor even see it?

Joe isn't my go-to critic for story/dialogue/character. He's pretty good at selling you on how well a game plays, that's about it. His movie reviews are straight ass.

 

[emmerrei]

This game really disappeared in record times. After those months, nothing remained. Just a generic game with a useless story, and no progress on the actual plot of the first one. But i guess, kids learned that the vendetta isn't the answer to everything, because you know, it's baad.
The online mode would have atleast gived some people more occasion to appreciate the only thing good in this game, the gunplay. Gunplay completly wasted, in the whole game, the best they done is to throw at you like 6-7 enemies at max, in big areas. But no one seems to talk about that, too. Only the last area showed something more, but too late, the game ended.

 

[sol_bad]

How many single player games have active threads for years? It's normal for topics to stay primarily active for 3-4 months for single player story based games.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

How many single player games have active threads for years? It's normal for topics to stay primarily active for 3-4 months for single player story based games.

If anything it was active for longer than necessary because of how upset it made people.

 

[Kadayi]

So he read all the fucking spoilers and knew all the story before playing the game and he's surprised he didn't like it? No shit dude. Where's the build up? It's line me reading the end of a book and then complaining I didn't like the rest because I know how it ends. It's like watching GoT last first.

You bumped a thread from July for that?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

You bumped a thread from July for that?

He just played the game, been going about seemingly bumping every thread he can find about it. He should have waited until PS5 when the second wave of people playing the game kicks in.

 

[Kadayi]

He just played the game, been going about seemingly bumping every thread he can find about it. He should have waited until PS5 when the second wave of people playing the game kicks in.

There's a goddamn OT, no need to bump dead topics.

 

[sol_bad]

I admittedly only watched the first 10 mins of Joe's review and then stopped. He was aking like a man baby because Naughty Dog "disrespected" a loved character.

 

[The Cockatrice]

They actually found in a study that more people enjoyed a story if they already knew the ending.

Spoiler alert: spoilers make you enjoy stories more

Did someone spoil the next episode of "Game of Thrones"? They might have done you a favor.

www.universityofcalifornia.edu

Americans love spoilers and the people who participated were prolly in that group. I highly doubt most ppl love spoilers. Imagine if the whole world hated surprises.

 

[RJMacready73]

i had to work hard to actively avoid all spoilers for the game for absolutely ages, knew nothing other than some general outrage and wokeness... actually thought they had turned Joel gay or something but when i started to play the game and came across each new "outrage" i just kept thinking... fucking seriously... really... you're getting worked up over this.. The game for me was an absolute masterpiece, kept me right on the edge of my seat, had me shouting at the screen, had to me actively forcing myself to play thinking nonononono dont go down this route etc etc.. world class stuff and the only other game to make me do that was the first one, yeah Druckman keep making em the way you want em and fuck the internet, roll on TLOU3 Wokeharder

 

[Spaceman292]

They actually found in a study that more people enjoyed a story if they already knew the ending.

Spoiler alert: spoilers make you enjoy stories more

Did someone spoil the next episode of "Game of Thrones"? They might have done you a favor.

www.universityofcalifornia.edu

What kind of bumdingle study is that

 

[GymWolf]

Americans love spoilers and the people who participated were prolly in that group. I highly doubt most ppl love spoilers. Imagine if the whole world hated surprises.

The only spoiler i want is the one on my car or if i have to fuck a transvestite before knowing that he has a dick, that is a welcome spoiler before getting in bed with her\him\spaceship...

 

[Kadayi]

i had to work hard to actively avoid all spoilers for the game for absolutely ages, knew nothing other than some general outrage and wokeness... actually thought they had turned Joel gay or something but when i started to play the game and came across each new "outrage" i just kept thinking... fucking seriously... really... you're getting worked up over this.. The game for me was an absolute masterpiece, kept me right on the edge of my seat, had me shouting at the screen, had to me actively forcing myself to play thinking nonononono dont go down this route etc etc.. world class stuff and the only other game to make me do that was the first one, yeah Druckman keep making em the way you want em and fuck the internet, roll on TLOU3 Wokeharder

Why does Ellie spare Abby? Unlike the player, she's spent no time with her. She has no investment in her well being. She has no sense of Abbys struggles, You as the player who may have warmed to Abby in your playthrough may be 'OMG don't do it Ellie' at the end, but as a character, Ellie isn't burdened with any of that prior knowledge, and she's already killed hundreds of people to get to her (and she never wanted to give up the hunt in Seattle either). She doesn't even have a prior investment to forgive (as she had with Joel) as a reason not to see things through to the bitter end. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Abby should have died. But the ending simply doesn't work on a narrative level because it's built on player knowledge, not character knowledge.

 

[Freeman76]

I preferred it to the first one....usually agree with joe but not on this one

 

[RJMacready73]

Why does Ellie spare Abby? Unlike the player, she's spent no time with her. She has no investment in her well being. She has no sense of Abbys struggles, You as the player who may have warmed to Abby in your playthrough may be 'OMG don't do it Ellie' at the end, but as a character, Ellie isn't burdened with any of that prior knowledge, and she's already killed hundreds of people to get to her (and she never wanted to give up the hunt in Seattle either). She doesn't even have a prior investment to forgive (as she had with Joel) as a reason not to see things through to the bitter end. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Abby should have died. But the ending simply doesn't work on a narrative level because it's built on player knowledge, not character knowledge.

From my questionable memory of the ending did she not spare Abby because of a Joel flashback at the end, that the cycle of violence had to end and her killing Abby would give her no peace, she had no peace in the lead up to leaving to kill her she probably realized she would have no peace after and that she needed to simply let go of Joel and let go of revenge..

You say Ellie had no warming to Abby as we did as a player, but I would disagree to a certain extent, sure Abby killed Joel, but hey Joel murdered her family, yes Abby killed her friends but how many did Ellie waste of hers and not forgetting Twice Abby let Ellie live and with the state Ellie found Abby in and all Abby wanted was to protect the kid she surely seen in Abby, a bit of Joel.. Ellie going for the kill after all that would’ve simply killed Ellie as a character of any worth, I’m glad she didn’t kill Abby, that would’ve turned me completely off Ellie after getting to know Abby, both are deeply flawed characters who’ve committed terrible things but at least there’s still a bit of human in them which is why I thought the game was incredible and so many leagues above its peers…

 

[RJMacready73]

I preferred it to the first one....usually agree with joe but not on this one

I love Joe and his reviews are all spot on but after completing the game and finally watching his review he was sooo fucking wrong

 

[MilkyJoe]

They actually found in a study that more people enjoyed a story if they already knew the ending.

Spoiler alert: spoilers make you enjoy stories more

Did someone spoil the next episode of "Game of Thrones"? They might have done you a favor.

www.universityofcalifornia.edu

I think that's just for fuckwits

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Lol a dude complaining about another guys review

Look if you think this shit is a masterpiece good for you. But childish to expect everyone in the world to think the same as you.

So sick of hearing about this pretentious ass game and it’s cultists. I’m sorry you are triggered by Angry Joe. I’m sorry not everyone loves the same videogame you do. Get a life

 

[Kadayi]

From my questionable memory of the ending did she not spare Abby because of a Joel flashback at the end, that the cycle of violence had to end and her killing Abby would give her no peace, she had no peace in the lead up to leaving to kill her she probably realized she would have no peace after and that she needed to simply let go of Joel and let go of revenge..

You say Ellie had no warming to Abby as we did as a player, but I would disagree to a certain extent, sure Abby killed Joel, but hey Joel murdered her family, yes Abby killed her friends but how many did Ellie waste of hers and not forgetting Twice Abby let Ellie live and with the state Ellie found Abby in and all Abby wanted was to protect the kid she surely seen in Abby, a bit of Joel.. Ellie going for the kill after all that would’ve simply killed Ellie as a character of any worth, I’m glad she didn’t kill Abby, that would’ve turned me completely off Ellie after getting to know Abby, both are deeply flawed characters who’ve committed terrible things but at least there’s still a bit of human in them which is why I thought the game was incredible and so many leagues above its peers…

Again that's all in a flashback that you as the player understand, but it's never explained to Ellie. The only opportunity it could have occurred is when torturing Nora, but even then, that doesn't give Ellie pause for thought in her pursuit of revenge. Ellie is not the one who wants to walk away. It's a contrivance that just doesn't work for a lot of people. I'm not against the narrative arc. I think it could have worked, but honestly, I just don't think the writers did a good enough job in terms of kicking the tires when coming up with the storyline and grounding themselves within the frame of both the setting as is (which is not a future based on ours, versus a future based on a division point in 1993). I really recommend giving Waypoint Radio 6 hour deep dive into the game a listen, because they really take the writing to task throughout, and on paper, you'd think they'd be all for it: -

The Last of Us Part II Spoilercast: Part 1 from Waypoint Radio | Podcast Episode on Podbay

Listen to The Last of Us Part II Spoilercast: Part 1, an episode of Waypoint Radio, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web.

podbay.fm

The Last of Us Part II Spoilercast - Part 2 from Waypoint Radio | Podcast Episode on Podbay

Listen to The Last of Us Part II Spoilercast - Part 2, an episode of Waypoint Radio, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web.

podbay.fm

 

[sobaka770]

Again that's all in a flashback that you as the player understand, but it's never explained to Ellie. The only opportunity it could have occurred is when torturing Nora, but even then, that doesn't give Ellie pause for thought in her pursuit of revenge. Ellie is not the one who wants to walk away. It's a contrivance that just doesn't work for a lot of people. I'm not against the narrative arc. I think it could have worked, but honestly, I just don't think the writers did a good enough job in terms of kicking the tires when coming up with the storyline and grounding themselves within the frame of both the setting as is (which is not a future based on ours, versus a future based on a division point in 1993). I really recommend giving Waypoint Radio 6 hour deep dive into the game a listen, because they really take the writing to task throughout, and on paper, you'd think they'd be all for it: -

The Last of Us Part II Spoilercast: Part 1 from Waypoint Radio | Podcast Episode on Podbay

Listen to The Last of Us Part II Spoilercast: Part 1, an episode of Waypoint Radio, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web.

podbay.fm

The Last of Us Part II Spoilercast - Part 2 from Waypoint Radio | Podcast Episode on Podbay

Listen to The Last of Us Part II Spoilercast - Part 2, an episode of Waypoint Radio, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web.

podbay.fm

Ellie doesn't need to understand Abby and her journey. She needs to complete her own. The Joel flashback and the scene shown to the player that Ellie already knows about forgiveness is trigger enough because it's the linchpin of her arc where she realises that she was about to forgive Joel for choosing her over the whole damn world and she totally abandoned that in her pursuit of vengeance because she can't let go of the man. So logically it makes sense and is a much better arc than killing Abby and learning nothing from it.

 

[Kadayi]

Ellie doesn't need to understand Abby and her journey. She needs to complete her own. The Joel flashback and the scene shown to the player that Ellie already knows about forgiveness is trigger enough because it's the linchpin of her arc where she realises that she was about to forgive Joel for choosing her over the whole damn world and she totally abandoned that in her pursuit of vengeance because she can't let go of the man. So logically it makes sense and is a much better arc than killing Abby and learning nothing from it.

I'm not saying she needs to kill her. I'm saying that the setup doesn't work.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Ellie doesn't need to understand Abby and her journey. She needs to complete her own. The Joel flashback and the scene shown to the player that Ellie already knows about forgiveness is trigger enough because it's the linchpin of her arc where she realises that she was about to forgive Joel for choosing her over the whole damn world and she totally abandoned that in her pursuit of vengeance because she can't let go of the man. So logically it makes sense and is a much better arc than killing Abby and learning nothing from it.

Ellie can forgive Abby but not Seth, eh?

 

[Yselacrey00]

Why does Ellie spare Abby? Unlike the player, she's spent no time with her. She has no investment in her well being. She has no sense of Abbys struggles, You as the player who may have warmed to Abby in your playthrough may be 'OMG don't do it Ellie' at the end, but as a character, Ellie isn't burdened with any of that prior knowledge, and she's already killed hundreds of people to get to her (and she never wanted to give up the hunt in Seattle either). She doesn't even have a prior investment to forgive (as she had with Joel) as a reason not to see things through to the bitter end. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Abby should have died. But the ending simply doesn't work on a narrative level because it's built on player knowledge, not character knowledge.

I would agree. But Abby let her live twice, let dina and tommy live. Norah told Ellie Abby's and the wlf point of view. That Joel killed Abby's father and he was the only one able to make a vaccine, etc. So that played a big part on Ellie's decision. She was done with it but the flashbacks kept coming back, once she sees Abby is defeated and she's about to die, ellie realizes there's just no point on killing her. Tommy turn around would make less sense, he's telling ellie that she gets to live and all the sudden he wants her dead. Anyway, you know that Ellie doesn't wanna go, she just wanna forget and she thinks the only way to do it is by finishing it and killing Abby.

 

[Clear]

Abby doesn't get "spared", Ellie just realizes the futility of it all because the dead stay dead. More than that having faced the embodiment of her fear, she's no longer shackled by the existential terror of knowing the the monster that killed Joel and could have killed her just as easily is still out there.

Its not exactly deep pyschology, but it is a natural conclusion to her character arc based on established traits and motivations.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

To not be murdered while at the brink of drowning fits the definition of getting spared to the tee. When you have to engage in word games to support your point, then that point is automatically moot.

 

[Clear]

To not be murdered while at the brink of drowning fits the definition of getting spared to the tee. When you have to engage in word games to support your point, then that point is automatically moot.

Its not just semantics. Not doing something is less meaningful than the reasons why that choice was made. And in this case its clearly signposted that the motivation for the entire third act is the PTSD that's crushing Ellie. What did you think her freakout in the barn was there for? If it was only about getting revenge then Tommy's appearance would have been enough.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Its not just semantics. Not doing something is less meaningful than the reasons why that choice was made. And in this case its clearly signposted that the motivation for the entire third act is the PTSD that's crushing Ellie. What did you think her freakout in the barn was there for? If it was only about getting revenge then Tommy's appearance would have been enough.

Of which that does not fit the character verisimilitude due to the sunken cost for Ellie to find Abby. It also makes little sense when Ellie had a variety of weapons to kill Abby with, but intentionally disadvantage herself for the sake of "revenge is bad".

 

[Clear]

Of which that does not fit the character verisimilitude due to the sunken cost for Ellie to find Abby. It also makes little sense when Ellie had a variety of weapons to kill Abby with, but intentionally disadvantage herself for the sake of "revenge is bad".

The point is not "revenge is bad", the point is that to live in constant fear is a type of living death.

And the reality is that killing Abby isn't going to end that. It just restarts another cycle with the same inevitable outcome.

 

[Kadayi]

And the reality is that killing Abby isn't going to end that. It just restarts another cycle with the same inevitable outcome.

Whose left? Lev?

 

[Ulysses 31]

Whose left? Lev?

Theoretically, it could be a relative of anyone Ellie killed during the campaign.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

The point is not "revenge is bad", the point is that to live in constant fear is a type of living death.

And the reality is that killing Abby isn't going to end that. It just restarts another cycle with the same inevitable outcome.

Ellie goes 'pop, pop' on Abby and Lev. No witnesses. Game ends* Yeah, sure Jan, "inevitable outcome".

That also still does not address the lack of sense in the lead up to the final fight considering the sunken cost and Ellie having a massive advantage.

 

[Kadayi]

Theoretically, it could be a relative of anyone Ellie killed during the campaign.

Well neither Killing Abby or sparing her is going to alter that situation lets be honest. Maybe Manny's Dad will be the antagonist of TLOU3? 'This one is for you Pendejo!!!'

 

[Clear]

Until you start considering things from the perspective of Ellie as a character, you'll remain stuck in the weeds on the subject of her motivations.

This has been done to death. Joel thought he killed everyone, put significant distance between himself and his former enemies, had Ellie hide her gift, and still fate caught up with him. But Ellie is supposed to go, "Nah, it'll be fine"?

 

[Ulysses 31]

Until you start considering things from the perspective of Ellie as a character, you'll remain stuck in the weeds on the subject of her motivations.

This has been done to death. Joel thought he killed everyone, put significant distance between himself and his former enemies, had Ellie hide her gift, and still fate caught up with him. But Ellie is supposed to go, "Nah, it'll be fine"?

Can't really expect Ellie to be fine with they way Abby disposes of Joel in her presence either, can you?

Considering what the game shows of Abby, her torturing Joel, after he helped her, seems out of character for her.

 

[Clear]

Can't really expect Ellie to be fine with they way Abby disposes of Joel in her presence either, can you?

Considering what the game shows of Abby, her torturing Joel, after he helped her, seems out of character for her.

Of course not. Its a legitimate inciting event. However by the time we get to the confrontation in the theater Ellie has already had her fill of bloodshed and seeing Abby with a knife to Dina's throat rams home the point that there's always more and worse losses to endure if she continues her warpath.

That essentially concludes Ellie's quest for revenge as her character's primary motivation.

Its funny, its like how people considered the death of Skull face in MGSV not to be the end of the story because there were plot threads and elements of continuity left untied. There seems to be a real lack of understanding about the grammar of storytelling and how that intersects with game design.

Abby's story offers a counterpoint in showing how a "successful" revenge plot actually concludes. She avenges her father, and does so relatively cleanly (unlike Ellie, no collateral damage so her moral self image remains that of a justified avenger and not a bloodthirsty assassin), and still is haunted by her failure to save her father, and gets to watch her friends slaughtered due to blowback!

The bottom line is that if you actually care about Ellie, you should be actively rooting against her killing Abby at the end. Because you've seen the cost it exacts in Abby's story arc, and how the notion of redemption in both her and Joel's stories only holds so long as they stay one step ahead of their past sins finding them out.

 

[RJMacready73]

Of course not. Its a legitimate inciting event. However by the time we get to the confrontation in the theater Ellie has already had her fill of bloodshed and seeing Abby with a knife to Dina's throat rams home the point that there's always more and worse losses to endure if she continues her warpath.

That essentially concludes Ellie's quest for revenge as her character's primary motivation.

Its funny, its like how people considered the death of Skull face in MGSV not to be the end of the story because there were plot threads and elements of continuity left untied. There seems to be a real lack of understanding about the grammar of storytelling and how that intersects with game design.

Abby's story offers a counterpoint in showing how a "successful" revenge plot actually concludes. She avenges her father, and does so relatively cleanly (unlike Ellie, no collateral damage so her moral self image remains that of a justified avenger and not a bloodthirsty assassin), and still is haunted by her failure to save her father, and gets to watch her friends slaughtered due to blowback!

The bottom line is that if you actually care about Ellie, you should be actively rooting against her killing Abby at the end. Because you've seen the cost it exacts in Abby's story arc, and how the notion of redemption in both her and Joel's stories only holds so long as they stay one step ahead of their past sins finding them out.

this guy gets it

 

[Ulysses 31]

Of course not. Its a legitimate inciting event. However by the time we get to the confrontation in the theater Ellie has already had her fill of bloodshed and seeing Abby with a knife to Dina's throat rams home the point that there's always more and worse losses to endure if she continues her warpath.

That essentially concludes Ellie's quest for revenge as her character's primary motivation.

You sure about that she had her fill? It's Tommy that pushes to go back while the person who traveled through states for revenge and did the actual killing is still alive.

Its funny, its like how people considered the death of Skull face in MGSV not to be the end of the story because there were plot threads and elements of continuity left untied. There seems to be a real lack of understanding about the grammar of storytelling and how that intersects with game design.

Haven't played any Metal Gear game so I can't speak to that.

Abby's story offers a counterpoint in showing how a "successful" revenge plot actually concludes. She avenges her father, and does so relatively cleanly (unlike Ellie, no collateral damage so her moral self image remains that of a justified avenger and not a bloodthirsty assassin), and still is haunted by her failure to save her father, and gets to watch her friends slaughtered due to blowback!

The bottom line is that if you actually care about Ellie, you should be actively rooting against her killing Abby at the end. Because you've seen the cost it exacts in Abby's story arc, and how the notion of redemption in both her and Joel's stories only holds so long as they stay one step ahead of their past sins finding them out.

Not sure that causing traumatic psychological damage to at least 2 people can be considered as no collateral. It's not clear if Joel even knows why she's torturing him, no acknowledgement that he did save her life. She was too needlessly cruel to be considered a justified avenger.

The player maybe but Ellie doesn't know what Abby has gone through, the 2 never cared enough to really speak to each other throughout the game and not even at the end. Why would Ellie's realization that this vengeance comes at to high a price come at the end after getting 2 fingers(this should fuel her rage) bit off instead of when she's killing God knows how many to get closer to Abby?
Why would she give Abby a "fair" fight if she intended to kill her at first?

 

[Clear]

You sure about that she had her fill? It's Tommy that pushes to go back while the person who traveled through states for revenge and did the actual killing is still alive.

Haven't played any Metal Gear game so I can't speak to that.

Not sure that causing traumatic psychological damage to at least 2 people can be considered as no collateral. It's not clear if Joel even knows why she's torturing him, no acknowledgement that he did save her life. She was too needlessly cruel to be considered a justified avenger.

The player maybe but Ellie doesn't know what Abby has gone through, the 2 never cared enough to really speak to each other throughout the game and not even at the end. Why would Ellie's realization that this vengeance comes at to high a price at the end after getting 2 fingers(this should fuel her rage) bit off instead of when she's killing God knows how many to get closer to Abby?
Why would she give Abby a "fair" fight if she intended to kill her at first?

I think its inarguable that an awful lot of Ellie's trauma is self inflicted. Her schism with Joel predates Abby's involvement and her path across Seattle begins with torture and ends in the unplanned murder of a pregnant woman.

Another point is that nobody who actually knows Joel thinks he's in any way an innocent, he might be reformed and to a degree as civilized as anyone can be in a lawless dystopia but he's done a lot of bad shit in order to survive. Abby's dad is a surgeon, a life-saver and not a combatant. That he was trying to create a cure to the cordyceps plague is just icing on the cake that says his murder was an atrocity, a crime against humanity.

He got in Joel's way, so he offed him. Even if you factored in he did it for sentiment, or as a pragmatic act to secure his and Ellie's escape from Salt Lake isn't going to mitigate it in any way to Abby or her friends/comrades. If you were in Abby's shoes you'd want an explanation too.

 

[Kadayi]

Of course not. Its a legitimate inciting event. However by the time we get to the confrontation in the theater Ellie has already had her fill of bloodshed and seeing Abby with a knife to Dina's throat rams home the point that there's always more and worse losses to endure if she continues her warpath.

Please, up until Abby turns up, Ellie is all about sticking around to finish the job even after the Owen and Mel situation and only agrees to leave because Tommy and Goose convince her that they have to head back to Jackson because of Dina's pregnancy. Then Abby turns up to spoil the party and whips her silly. Sure Abby lets her go at the behest of Lev, but that's on Abby not on Ellie. If anything Ellie should possess even more motivation to put an end Abby. Especially given she revealed her secret to Abby and she knows Abby is looking to reconnect with the Fireflies, which would undoubtedly mean people would come after her for the cure.

It's not clear if Joel even knows why she's torturing him, no acknowledgement that he did save her life. She was too needlessly cruel to be considered a justified avenger.

You'd think one the first things they'd ask a guy who effectively stole the cure for the virus would be 'Where's the girl' Right?

You'd also think that they might wonder what the relationship is between this girl begging for Joel's life is with this man also?

Top tier writing. Masterpiece 10/10 GoTG ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Clear]

Please, up until Abby turns up, Ellie is all about sticking around to finish the job even after the Owen and Mel situation and only agrees to leave because Tommy and Goose convince her that they have to head back to Jackson because of Dina's pregnancy. Then Abby turns up to spoil the party and whips her silly. Sure Abby lets her go at the behest of Lev, but that's on Abby not on Ellie. If anything Ellie should possess even more motivation to put an end Abby. Especially given she revealed her secret to Abby and she knows Abby is looking to reconnect with the Fireflies, which would undoubtedly mean people would come after her for the cure.

Goose? You really shouldn't try and lecture people on the finer points of dialogue and character when you can't even get their names right.

Seriously, why the hell are you still doing this? How many posts have you made hating on a game you simply don't get? Give it up.

 

[Ulysses 31]

I think its inarguable that an awful lot of Ellie's trauma is self inflicted. Her schism with Joel predates Abby's involvement and her path across Seattle begins with torture and ends in the unplanned murder of a pregnant woman.

Yes, Joel makes it worse by lying and letting the Fireflies off the hook which I find puzzling.

I thought that part was a bit sloppily written, would Owen and Mel really never think to mention their baby as a survival tactic?

Another point is that nobody who actually knows Joel thinks he's in any way an innocent, he might be reformed and to a degree as civilized as anyone can be in a lawless dystopia but he's done a lot of bad shit in order to survive. Abby's dad is a surgeon, a life-saver and not a combatant. That he was trying to create a cure to the cordyceps plague is just icing on the cake that says his murder was an atrocity, a crime against humanity.

He got in Joel's way, so he offed him. Even if you factored in he did it for sentiment, or as a pragmatic act to secure his and Ellie's escape from Salt Lake isn't going to mitigate it in any way to Abby or her friends/comrades. If you were in Abby's shoes you'd want an explanation too.

Seemed clear to me that not even Joel himself thinks he's innocent when he mentions his hunter days so I don't think him finding a new daughter would in any way absolve him from that past. Abby's dad may have had good intentions but he was willing to kill without informed consent so I don't think he can be portrayed as a moral person, no matter how many zebra's he saves.

But we're not even sure if Abby ever told Joel why she's torturing him which I think is a missed opportunity. Yes I think it would make sense that Abby tells Joel who she is rather than have him guess and why she's doing what she's doing. Do you think Abby informed Joel why she's torturing him?

 

[Kadayi]

Goose? You really shouldn't try and lecture people on the finer points of dialogue and character when you can't even get their names right.

Seriously, why the hell are you still doing this? How many posts have you made hating on a game you simply don't get? Give it up.

LOL. So just because I make a joke, you're suddenly not going to address the points raised? How convenient ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also gotta love the old falling back on the 'hating' thing. Criticism is not hate. You're entitled to think TLOU2 is the greatest video game ever made, that's your prerogative, but from a narrative perspective, there are plot holes running throughout it that you could fly the Imperial fleet through and for more discerning among us who actually want better writing in games it's a contentious title given much like Mass Effect 3 it was heaped with near-universal praise by the gaming press but left many regular people less than impressed for all manner of reasons.

 

[Clear]

LOL. So just because I make a joke, you're suddenly not going to address the points raised? How convenient ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Like your attempts at criticism, your attempts at humor fall just as flat.

As I've explained ad nauseum to you, discarding meritless critique is not tantamount to considering the object under criticism to be beyond complaint.

 

[Bankai]

This is a great video!

Also, Joe is wrong and I don’t respect his opinion.

 

[Kadayi]

Like your attempts at criticism, your attempts at humor fall just as flat.

As I've explained ad nauseum to you, discarding meritless critique is not tantamount to considering the object under criticism to be beyond complaint.

So, in other words, you've once again got nothing. When it comes to failing, you're a clear winner ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Yselacrey00]

A

Yes, Joel makes it worse by lying and letting the Fireflies off the hook which I find puzzling.

I thought that part was a bit sloppily written, would Owen and Mel really never think to mention their baby as a survival tactic?

Seemed clear to me that not even Joel himself thinks he's innocent when he mentions his hunter days so I don't think him finding a new daughter would in any way absolve him from that past. Abby's dad may have had good intentions but he was willing to kill without informed consent so I don't think he can be portrayed as a moral person, no matter how many zebra's he saves.

But we're not even sure if Abby ever told Joel why she's torturing him which I think is a missed opportunity. Yes I think it would make sense that Abby tells Joel who she is rather than have him guess and why she's doing what she's doing. Do you think Abby informed Joel why she's torturing him?

Actually, Abby's dad says something like "the things we've done will be justified". He was part of the fireflies, was a doctor but I believe he was also in charge of hunting that immune person. I'm pretty sure he killed or ordered to kill or kidnap a lot of persons. So not an innocent person at all, just like Joel and everyone else who had to do horrible things to survive.