DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Putting your disrespectful ass on ignore.
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$20 minimum wage for fast food workers in California
- Thread starter Eiknarf
- Start date
Putting your disrespectful ass on ignore.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Now you know what it feels like when someone calls your effort luck.
"That's life" only because we make life harder than it needs to be. That's the whole damn point, man. Other countries, poorer countries btw, don't make it as hard to live and guess what, the people there are happier. I would like American citizens to be happier too.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Lol. Yep. Dude can't do basic math but thinks he's smart enough to lecture others.
Davey Cakes
Member
Maybe someone IS trying to "pull up their socks" but the starting point is a fast food (or unskilled) job to cover the basics until a career shift is possible. People get upset at government spending but then defend a company like Walmart that pays its workers so little that they actually have instructions in the break room on how to apply for government assistance.
You guys are arguing around the simple point that in an advanced society all people are asking for is that full-time labor provides a reasonable floor. That's it. $20 might sound hefty for someone living in a flyover state, but it's near poverty wages for someone living in California.
I understand the "gain skills for gainful employment" thing but it's a process that everyone has to go through and the outcomes can vary wildly based on individual circumstances.
You guys are arguing around the simple point that in an advanced society all people are asking for is that full-time labor provides a reasonable floor. That's it. $20 might sound hefty for someone living in a flyover state, but it's near poverty wages for someone living in California.
I understand the "gain skills for gainful employment" thing but it's a process that everyone has to go through and the outcomes can vary wildly based on individual circumstances.
Ultimately it was luck. There are just as many unsuccessful people that have done the same things you have with the exact same skillset, the exact same capabilities as you or even better that ultimately didn't get to where you are. And there are people on this earth that have tried less than you, are lazier than the both of us combined, and have lives we could only dream of. So if hard work isn't the determining factor. What is? It's luck.
You can choose to put on a red shirt or green shirt and go running in the park, but you don't get to choose if someone shoots up that park while you're there. Since we know life is mostly luck based, we should have laws and regulations in place to mitigate it. So people aren't forced to live in destitution based on things they couldn't or had no ability to know would happen to them.
Just graduating college before the housing collapse of 2008 is already one of the biggest luck factors between the generations. No one younger deserved or could have foreseen that happening. And yet it has destroyed many lives even to this day.
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My son works at walmart and he is making $19.20/ hour to stock shelves.
I made sure to ask him exactly how much he is making. I wouldn't say a little over $19 an hour is a little bit...
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So where is the migration from poor paying areas to places with a better economy? We see this with the FLOOD of migrants coming up from the south (and from euasia) but why don't AMERICANS just move from socal to Arkansas where a fast food career can better support you?
I'll tell you, because folks want the gov to cover for them. With a cell phone in every pocket there is no longer any "lack of information" excuse for what a guy in the projects of LA can't go online and cultivate a relationship that nets them a job in a Burger King in some small town in Nebraska. You CAN do it, but does anyone WANT to? We ALREADY have a government provided "floor" that covers food, shelter, and most actual essentials for anyone with the clear mind to grab it. Ain't masses of folks starving to death in socal or anywhere in the US. The only homeless, really, are folks too crazy or drug addicted to solve it because there are plenty of places that can provide for someone willing and able to work.
It's all about the hustle. Hustle in school and do your schoolwork. Hustle in the job market and take what you can. Hustle in your job and make yourself THE MAN at your job. Take risks, get the rewards. No one is entitled to a life of no risk, no stress, that also gets you a single family home with a picket fence, 2 cars, 4 TVs, netflix, an xbox, 2 vacations a year, and braces for your kids. Thats just crazy talk. PLENTY of men did that hustle so their kids can live a better life. Plenty of women did it alongside or without their man as well. It's been that way since the dawn of time, only a tiny, tiny fraction of humans got to wake up in the morning and not have to fight for a meal and a safe place to lay back down a night. But today the portion of folks that can say they didn't have to fight this day has NEVER been higher, there is more surplus and excess than ever. You just gotta get out there and get yours.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Yup.
Nobody said in life there's a perfect correlation between hustle, education or skill set and life's rewards. I'm sure there's high school drop outs on social media who uploaded some videos and became super popular making click money based solely on some videos and a likeable personality. It's like the person during the early days of YT posting a video of a young black kid doing chocolate rain and the video alone has 100M views based on a 4 minute video.
But in general, there's a correlation. That's why every census survey will show people who have better jobs and money skew to higher education required. And higher education typically means higher skill set and school aptitude. That doesn't mean a blue collar guy manning a skyscraper crane cant make good money. And that doesn't mean a university grad will automatically mean the guy will become a millionaire. But there's correlation. And higher education takes more effort and smarts and shows you can trudge through a 4 year process.
And people know that if you want a good career, you typically got to put in the time. Nobody spends endless years and tuition for a shit career that pays bad. You do it because you like the career and if you go through the process of school and building knowledge and skills companies will offer those people better jobs and pay because if all they can do is go off a resume, they'd rather trust that person with a foot in the door interview than a random guy thinking he's so skilled and jobs are luck based he just wings it on a hope and prayer thinking life isnt about how you live and what you do, but he thinks it's based purely on a roll of a dice or if youre poor youre poor forever. You go in with that attitude and the hiring boss will cut the interview short and tell you to beat it.
And that makes zero sense because those two things conflict. On one hand, it's luck based. The other is born and bred destiny. But you can see that tons of immigrants or locals who came from crappy situations arent 100% poor slummers. Some might be, but many rise up. Nobody offers a dumbass school admissions or a degree or a good job just for laughs. They did something right to earn that opportunity.
If immigrants who come over with nothing and dont even know english can be successful anyone can. And the reason why so many of them are is because they will hustle instead of sitting around waiting for gov and taxes to bail them out.
What lazy people want is good money and jobs at as little effort and skill set as possible. Thats a paradise view that will never happen. And making it worse is government doesn't even support that view as their wage floor is low. So to make good money even they cut the cord on minimum wages and expect people to earn heir own big pay cheque. If you want more bucks you got to prove you are worth it, or making it easier to see and stamp get a promotion. If i talk to my boss and say I want 10% or 20% pay boost, he'll laugh and say why. If I can prove I can maybe he'll get approval. If not, i get stonewalled. I'm not going to go in with no proof or worth. What low skilled people want are pay boosts with zero - and I mean dead zero - proof of worth or performance. It's just... "I want more money". Well, prove to the boss you can make burgers or milkshakes better and faster than the guy next to you and maybe he'll boost you up.
It's like in a job interview and asking for compensation at the higher end of the band, while they start off people hoping they take the lower end. Well, you got to prove to them you are worth it. If not, you get offered (assuming they make you an offer) at the lower end.
I know what someone will say..... well, it's different because you cant compare a fry guy with anyone whose a veteran office worker. Sure I can. In life, thats how it goes. If youre a kid and ask for money from parents, you'll probably get offered crap or youre usual $2/week (which I blew at the variety store!). Now if you want $5 or $10, mom and dad will say what are you going to do about it? Smarten up, do more chores or as my dad wheel and dealed with me... I'll give you $10 for every A you get (or in grade school like 5 or 6 the top box was called something like "Exceptional" since my grade school didnt give A-F ratings, but middle school 7 and 8 did). I collected my share of money from around grade 5 to 8, until high school when I worked PT. And at that age you dont ask for allowance anymore.
Sounds simple to me. Be a man and prove your worth.
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So you get how that's luck, then, right? You do understand that means we aren't a meritocracy.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Sure. But merit is most of it.
Your inane posts from last night even contradict each other. On one hand you're posting about luck, then post about it's about zip code someone was raised in. So make up your mind.
But at the end of the day, businesses will pay people good money if you got the skills and value, and governments in every country have low end min wages. The jobs and money are there. You just got to rise and get it. Your wish of great jobs and pay based on luck and unskilled labour are a dream. And unfortunately for you, you've got a bad attitude towards work ethic and merit thinking that everyone's lives and career is based purely on luck or whatever zip code they were born in. I dont believe that. That's why people like myself and others blow past you.
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Because your zip code is also luck, dude. It's only a contradiction because you don't understand. You don't get to choose who births you, so you don't get to choose where your zip code is when you're born. Since the biggest factor for success is your zip code at birth, that means it's mostly luck. Not merit. If it's something beyond your control than it isn't merit-based.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
So what you're saying is all the people who did well in life, it's based on luck.
And being born and raised in a bad area is luck too, where for all the people in the world (including GAFFERS) who had a cruddy upbringing but did well in life later on are just lucky guys too.
Got it.
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Generic
Member
A happy ending...
Mistake
Member
As someone who was born in an extremely shit situation, I disagree. I said fuck it all and made my own success. Paid off the family house a few years ago after I turned 30.
Sometimes I thought the same, but then think of everyone who has a lot less and turn myself around.
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The Pleasure
Member
Smells like virtual twat and motor oil.
TheGrat1
Member
Minimum wage is basic economics. It is bad policy but ideology gets in the way. When an artificial price floor is set above the equilibrium point of supply and demand, for any product/service, it creates a shortage. When it comes to labor we call that shortage unemployment.
Anyone who advocates for a "living wage" must detail the minimum lifestyle one must be able to achieve, with no government assistance, working any job at 40 hours per week. Otherwise it is just a pointless feel good platitude.
Where can you live? (Rural, suburbs, inner city)
Low or high cost of living area? (big city, medium city, middle of nowhere)
Transportation? (Walk, bike/scooter, bus/train, personal car/motorbike)
Domicile? (apartment, house, condo)
Living status? (live alone, 1 roommate, 2 roommate, 3+rommate, live with family)
Relationship status? (single, boyfriend/girlfriend (do they live with you?), married)
Children? (Zero, 1, 2, 3, 4+)
Entertainment/Travel budget? (Never go out, one vacation per year, go out once a month, go out once per week, etc.)
How much debt (in terms of income to debt ratio)? (1:0, 1:.5, 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, etc.)
Detail that lifestyle and then we can put a real number on it.
Something more recent and germane to the topic of this thread:
For everyone who says if you can not pay X your business does not deserve to exist: Please, show us how it is all done. Open your own fast food business, pay your employees this essential "living wage", and school the rest of the business world. You will attract all of the best employees and have the most motivated workers in your sector. Should be easy since you are not greedy, right? I predict reality will ensue very quickly for you.
Anyone who advocates for a "living wage" must detail the minimum lifestyle one must be able to achieve, with no government assistance, working any job at 40 hours per week. Otherwise it is just a pointless feel good platitude.
Where can you live? (Rural, suburbs, inner city)
Low or high cost of living area? (big city, medium city, middle of nowhere)
Transportation? (Walk, bike/scooter, bus/train, personal car/motorbike)
Domicile? (apartment, house, condo)
Living status? (live alone, 1 roommate, 2 roommate, 3+rommate, live with family)
Relationship status? (single, boyfriend/girlfriend (do they live with you?), married)
Children? (Zero, 1, 2, 3, 4+)
Entertainment/Travel budget? (Never go out, one vacation per year, go out once a month, go out once per week, etc.)
How much debt (in terms of income to debt ratio)? (1:0, 1:.5, 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, etc.)
Detail that lifestyle and then we can put a real number on it.
12:10 is a perfect example of an ideologue. Even when it is shown that the policies he advocates for have pushed people to the brink, he still supports cutting off their only source of employment because it falls outside of his prescription. His self-assured moral superiority allows him to condemn desperate people with no shame. He really thinks he is helping. Milton Friedman called them "Do-gooders who do harm."
Something more recent and germane to the topic of this thread:
For everyone who says if you can not pay X your business does not deserve to exist: Please, show us how it is all done. Open your own fast food business, pay your employees this essential "living wage", and school the rest of the business world. You will attract all of the best employees and have the most motivated workers in your sector. Should be easy since you are not greedy, right? I predict reality will ensue very quickly for you.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I can say this one thing... $15/hr in Atlanta is not going to give you a living wage in MOST places out here. Maybe if you are in a boarding house where rent is like $700/mo, but for a single parent that's still not going to cut it because those places are for single people with no dependents. So where do they go? What do they do? "Go back to school!" You say? Well, what are they going to do in the interim WHILE they're in school? What if they don't find a job right out of school after graduation? What then? Live in a shelter?
In the 70s, you could actually make a modest living on the minimum wage. What happened? Part of it is that minimum wage was decoupled from inflation. Back then, when inflation rose, so did the minimum wage. It was a measure that made sure that the living wage (read up on FDR) would not fall below inflation. But that's what the government let happen.
What's the solution?
In the 70s, you could actually make a modest living on the minimum wage. What happened? Part of it is that minimum wage was decoupled from inflation. Back then, when inflation rose, so did the minimum wage. It was a measure that made sure that the living wage (read up on FDR) would not fall below inflation. But that's what the government let happen.
What's the solution?
One person doing something doesn't mean the whole fucking world can.
Mistake
Member
Never said I came from a Cambodian sweatshop. Did you?
Crazy how shit can fuck up people's plans outside of their control in this country just like any others.
Toons
Member
Government has no problem putting a hard number on any other accommodations. I had disability income for years due to multiple illnesses I was born with. Then one year after finding a decent part time job was told I now make too much money, so they won't give me any disability income even though I still have that disability. It was based on a hard number. Where did they pull this number from? Who knows!
Of course you also can barely get Healthcare if you dont make ANY money either...
There doesn't have to be a set amount. The amount doesn't even have to be the same for every town or city. But an individual working 40 hours a week or more and living within means should not have any concerns that they will not have a play to lay their head down at night or a meal to eat. We have a ton of money in this country and its being actively, blatantly, publicly hoarded from the vast majority bu the vast minority. Thats a problem any way you slice it.
If 20 bucks an hour helps these folks even a little bit more(they certainly aren't gonna be living it up) then its a good thing.
Havoc2049
Member
Working fast food isn't full time employment though. Only the managers are full time and everyone else is part time. Fast food and restaurants aren't designed to provide full time work with good wages and benefits.
Mr1999
Member
After living in California for practically my entire life, $20 just isn't going to cut it. Going from $16 dollars or whatever it was an hour to $20 or $22, it's not going to change your life. Some might argue that such a wage doesn't justify the work, and that you should be getting bare minimum, but ultimately, it's a dead end job either way with no prospects for advancement. I guess it's okay if you're content with earning that amount and heading home without any worries, but you could find similar opportunities elsewhere with just a few college units in a semester.
Yea I get that burgers will cost more now, but the constant excuses for price hikes across various industries prior to this felt disingenuous anyways. I remember working for a company during the 2008 downturn and one day they gathered us all in the cafeteria to spin a tale of financial hardship, laying off some workers then increasing the workload for the remaining employees by having them operate multiple machines.
When the economy improved, the workload remained the same as did the pay, they never went back after they saw their profits increase and same productivity, why would they? Now days employers just ask for more overtime instead of hiring more workers. The problem now is that you have a lot of companies in California where they pay ""good" positions only $2 more than the $20 fast food workers get, and some might think its not fair, which In some cases that might be true, but that's not the burger flippers fault. Just saying, if they could get away with paying you peanuts, they would.
Yea I get that burgers will cost more now, but the constant excuses for price hikes across various industries prior to this felt disingenuous anyways. I remember working for a company during the 2008 downturn and one day they gathered us all in the cafeteria to spin a tale of financial hardship, laying off some workers then increasing the workload for the remaining employees by having them operate multiple machines.
When the economy improved, the workload remained the same as did the pay, they never went back after they saw their profits increase and same productivity, why would they? Now days employers just ask for more overtime instead of hiring more workers. The problem now is that you have a lot of companies in California where they pay ""good" positions only $2 more than the $20 fast food workers get, and some might think its not fair, which In some cases that might be true, but that's not the burger flippers fault. Just saying, if they could get away with paying you peanuts, they would.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Out of interest, how much would somebody need to make per hour to live comfortably in LA or San Francisco. I mean earning enough money to actually enjoy life and not just scrape by every month.
Mr1999
Member
I can use my sister for reference, somewhere around $32 an hour, not sure about San Francisco.
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SoloCamo
Member
Don't see how unless that is being supplemented by others in the household. That salary alone would barely afford you a half decent life in Florida, and I'm not talking a major city.
Mr1999
Member
I don't know how it is now, but It was hard for her when she was financing her car and had other bills, but she managed to get it before the pandemic, so the monthly payment for her car was around $300. She just paid it off last year, she mentioned how she's was able to save. Lucky for her is that her rent is reasonable at $1300 per month due to rent control. If she were to move out now and seek a new rental, she'd likely face double that amount and start at whatever the asking price was. Still, my cousin was able to get in a house in Lancaster and is paying a little over $1600 a month, but again this was few years ago and things could have changed. Housing is indeed the biggest issue, I lucked out another way (wifey) and don't have to pay much if anything for it so I get to save much more easier and buy toys every month (not in california).
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SoloCamo
Member
That makes way more sense, especially the rent control part. I'm paying more than that for rent and I'm under the market average by hundreds in my area (and again, this is not a major city in FL) . Thankfully the landlord of our house is on good terms and knows we take care of the place rarely asking anything of them. As an example the house next door (which has one less bathroom) is going for $1900 a month.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
That's around £50k a year before tax. In some places in the UK that's a decent wage for one person. In London it's nothing. You'd struggle to get a one bedroom flat in London on that money.
I think the minimum wage should be how much a person needs to live and not just survive, but pay them enough so they can buy a property. In which case, in London the minimum wage should be £50 per hour, or just shy of $61 dollars an hour. That's what fast food restaurant and bar staff should be getting in London. Instead, their getting, and this is assuming minimum wage, around $14 per hour.
Wastelander92
Member
Sh has anyone seen an increase in service since this took effect?
RPS37
Member
I honestly would always blame bad service on this whenever something would go wrong.
Unknown?
Member
No, get mad at the politicians that are debasing the dollar and making it worth less. Minimum wage wouldn't need to increase if they didn't debase by spending more than they make.
People should demand better purchasing power of their dollar rather than more dollars.
Also this kills mom and pop shops.
They do this anyway regardless if the wage is $20 an hour or not, it might've sped it up in some specific ones but this was always the end goal, at least this way the workers can get more money before being made redundant.
Edit: maybe they can go and work at Walmart and Target since they're thinking of scaling back on self service because *drum roll* it's making stealing easier and it's cutting into their profits!
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Kenpachii
Member
And then you introduce money income for people that have no work ( whatever its called in amerika ) and u tax mcdonalds extra and other large corporations like it which they can get rid of if they employ more people again.
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Bojji
Member
This shit would happen regardless of that wage increase (probably faster now). If companies could operate without paying anything to employees - they would do that...
Unknown Soldier
Member
I hope you don't have a cell phone then because you would be mad to find out how successful Apple, Samsung, et. al are when their products are all made in slave labor conditions in China LMAO
Hudo
Member
If you want to be anal about it then technically, Apple and Samsung don't produce these components themselves. They outsource that to Foxconn et al., who are exploiting their workers.
Edit: Also, what is your point? There are multiple perspectives at play here. From a business point of view, I'd view any situation where I have to exploit my workers in order to make a profit as a precarious one. Something that is not viable in the long-term. And that's not some "deep-ass knowledge". That's just some common sense. I can still buy shit from these businesses, if their products fulfill my criteria as a consumer, even if they exploit their workers. As my job as a consumer is to look for the best overall package.
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Bojji
Member
Same goes for clothes and other electronics. Not to mention cobalt mines and child (almost) slave labor in Africa.
Corporations are movies villain level of evil, not many people are truly evil but corporations are as their only goals are to make profit and grow.
They will exploit anyone or anything (like rainforests etc.), once they will be able to replace cheap workers from China/India/Africa with Ai and robots they will do that. Right now it's still to expensive probably (relatively new tech).
Unknown?
Member
All of those complaints can be applied to government too. Also a lot of these companies are so big due to government.
Governments are the only entities that can enforce coercive monopolies and hold many many monopolies of their own.
Burning Blade
Member
That sounds really sweet and all, but that’s Walmarts business model and it’s worked out splendidly thus far.
jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
My local McDs (not California) just did this two weeks ago. The difference is, they only have two self-service kiosks. Not show in your video, but the drive through line is now constantly around the block.
Davey Cakes
Member
McDonald's was always going to automate as much as possible. Perhaps the minimum wage accelerated it.
I don't even know why people keep going there. The quality is at an all-time low and the food is expensive beyond its worth.
I don't even know why people keep going there. The quality is at an all-time low and the food is expensive beyond its worth.
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Bojji
Member
There are entities that should be able to control corporations but we all know that corporate money is pumped there to influence people, same goes for people in governments. Some corporations bought their way to become this big and essentially untouchable.
Then (corporations like) Apple claim to be the good good guys:
Apple knew a supplier was using child labor but took 3 years to fully cut ties, despite the company's promises to hold itself to the 'highest standards,' report says
Ex-employees told The Information that Apple kept working with suppliers, despite repeated labor law violations, when cutting ties was more costly.
www.businessinsider.com
Obviously judicial system is paid by corporations too:
But majority of people don't care so obviously new Iphones, Teslas and other shit sells like hot cakes.
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