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[ROMhack]

females are more social than males generally, so it would make sense if an outcast female feels more outcast than an anti-social male.

this is only the same as a male not being strong or masculine (traditionallly) he would feel more out of place than he would if he didn't fit in with fashion or whatever

This is it for me. Being introverted doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as seeming weak and puny like tiny bug.

 

[MMaRsu]

Cause girls get shit on in online enviroments by edgelords, incels and desperate clowns

 

[ROMhack]

Cause girls get shit on in online enviroments by edgelords, incels and desperate clowns

True. I actually suspect that the attention-grabbing-ness of some girl gamers (ie Twitchers) is down to the fact that can at least exert control on how they'll be judged. May as well embrace it if they know they'll be treated differently.

 

[Kenpachii]

what dose era say

Normway banned

Banned ( lifetime) promoting unacceptable sexist narratives. History of severe infractions.

 

[Dontero]

Wrong.
Your first point assumes that there is a causal link between girls playing games(A) and developing impaired social skills(B).
But the study only showed that there is a correlation. The data offers no indication that these things (A and B) are causally connected, so the conclusion

The second point is meaningless because the study didn't establish any metric to measure "difference".

But you see difference between men and women and study says exactly that if girls play games they do worse than girls who do not play games. You may not know exactly if it is due to certain games but effect is clear.
If study didn't establish any difference then how it can be published by peer review journal ? IF that is the true then literally there is no study.

That being said i don't say it is "wrong" imho as a man i think girls are to oversocialized and they focus to much on people instead of things.

Cause girls get shit on in online environment by edge-lords, incels and desperate clowns

And men don't ? It always amuse me when someone can say that and completely ignore that out there it is not just women who get it but EVERYONE equally. I am yet to hear anyone saying something if male streamer gets "fucked" "gay" etc and they get that constantly.

If women want to get into gaming they should became more like a men. Ignore everything, something you learn from very young age and learn how to be aggressive when you need it.

 

[Mistershine.]

But you see difference between men and women and study says exactly that if girls play games they do worse than girls who do not play games. You may not know exactly if it is due to certain games but effect is clear.
If study didn't establish any difference then how it can be published by peer review journal ? IF that is the true then literally there is no study.

That being said i don't say it is "wrong" imho as a man i think girls are to oversocialized and they focus to much on people instead of things.



And men don't ? It always amuse me when someone can say that and completely ignore that out there it is not just women who get it but EVERYONE equally. I am yet to hear anyone saying something if male streamer gets "fucked" "gay" etc and they get that constantly.

If women want to get into gaming they should became more like a men. Ignore everything, something you learn from very young age and learn how to be aggressive when you need it.

The study says that there is a link between poor social skills and gaming, not that gaming is the cause. Gaming could be the result.

 

[Dontero]

The study says that there is a link between poor social skills and gaming, not that gaming is the cause. Gaming could be the result.

How can there be "link" when you measure two groups and they give you different answer based on what they do ?
That is not link anymore but direct result.

The only question here is that study can be replicated. If it can then it is direct fact. Then researchers should find out what is exactly the cause and what mechanism causes this.

 

[SonGoku]

Gamers who clock in hours tend to be socially awkward

 

[lukilladog]

When I played fighting games at the arcades, the very few girls trying to do it always got blasted within the game, but they always were treated in a privileged manner, nobody would clown them or mock them. I think the lack of that (the mocking) made them feel like they were not part of those groups, and probably hurt their social confidence to some degree. I think we men have a duty to not treat women like snowflakes

 

[Dragon Lord]

I wonder if it is being taken into account that girls and boys also tend to be socialized differently, with society setting different goals for what represents “good social skills” in girls versus boys.

 

[Aurelian]

And men don't ? It always amuse me when someone can say that and completely ignore that out there it is not just women who get it but EVERYONE equally. I am yet to hear anyone saying something if male streamer gets "fucked" "gay" etc and they get that constantly.

If women want to get into gaming they should became more like a men. Ignore everything, something you learn from very young age and learn how to be aggressive when you need it.

This shows a lack of experience of what it's actually like.

Men in online gemes generally don't have other players hitting on them, implying their entire gender isn't good at games, or threatening to rape them. I've seen that last one happen on a live stream. Many women will purposefully avoid using voice chat or otherwise clearly identifying their gender because they know they'll endure some pretty harsh verbal attacks.

And here's a thought: instead of telling the victims of verbal abuse to grow a thick skin, how about we shame the shitbags who hurl that abuse? That includes the ones who toss out homophobic slurs. The average age of a gamer is 34, according to the ESA; it's high time we grow the hell up and ask people to do better.

 

[lukilladog]

This shows a lack of experience of what it's actually like.

Men in online gemes generally don't have other players hitting on them, implying their entire gender isn't good at games, or threatening to rape them. I've seen that last one happen on a live stream. Many women will purposefully avoid using voice chat or otherwise clearly identifying their gender because they know they'll endure some pretty harsh verbal attacks.

And here's a thought: instead of telling the victims of verbal abuse to grow a thick skin, how about we shame the shitbags who hurl that abuse? That includes the ones who toss out homophobic slurs. The average age of a gamer is 34, according to the ESA; it's high time we grow the hell up and ask people to do better.

Most women that turn voice chat off do it for the same reasons men do it, too much stupidity around. It´s just a fact that the bottom of the IQ ladders belong mostly to men, but please, don´t put all men there, stop being sexist (talking to SJW´s in general).

 

[Aurelian]

Most women that turn voice chat off do it for the same reasons men do it, too much stupidy around. It´s just a fact that the bottom of the IQ ladders belong mostly to men, but please, don´t put all men there, stop being sexist.

Most? I know I said "many" are worried about sexual harassment, but there's a big difference between saying "many" and saying "most." Provide evidence, please, or scale back the scope of what you're asserting.

Also, I didn't say "all men" (please don't be That Guy who uses the "not all men" line). It's that women face abuse in multiplayer games that men typically don't. Yeah, most of the men in chat will be civil, but they're not the issue -- it's that there's a disturbingly high chance of one of them being a creep who goes well past the usual trash talking.

 

[Dontero]

This shows a lack of experience of what it's actually like.

Men in online gemes generally don't have other players hitting on them, implying their entire gender isn't good at games, or threatening to rape them. I've seen that last one happen on a live stream. Many women will purposefully avoid using voice chat or otherwise clearly identifying their gender because they know they'll endure some pretty harsh verbal attacks.

And here's a thought: instead of telling the victims of verbal abuse to grow a thick skin, how about we shame the shitbags who hurl that abuse? That includes the ones who toss out homophobic slurs. The average age of a gamer is 34, according to the ESA; it's high time we grow the hell up and ask people to do better.

1st.
Why is calling someone "faggot i will kill you" nicer thing than saying someone "i will rape you" ?
Last time i checked killing someone is worse than raping them. Go into any popular game chat and people talk about killing each other, slur, racially abuse so on and so forth. That is literally STANDARD among gamers.

This is why women should be like men and grow the fuck up. Someone saying he will rape you doesn't mean anything period. Reason why after a while you have "clean" chat in some games is because no one is baiting anymore people into verbal fights because no one is taking that bait.

But try to act offended and you will be eaten faster than fresh meat in piranha pond.

2nd
Why do you expect men to behave exactly the same with women in their group online when that does not happen in real life ? Why do you expect men to not act differently when women join games ? That does not happen anywhere, regardless if this is work, home, friends, or even just strangers.

Men who are in group with men behave differently that mixed groups which also behave differently than groups of only women. If you are gamer girl just look for other girl gamers and... voila no rape threats.

If you play randoms you don't expect civility. Welcome to online gaming.

3rd.
Civility itself. The idea that you can change civility on internet is as naive as trying to turn back river.
There are many reason for it. For one you are talking not about your own country but shitload of people who come from not only different backgrounds but entirely different cultures.

Do you think your plea will work for someone who is ok with killing gays and not just in game but real life ? About 90% of muslim world 1,5bln people believe that. How about Indians ? You can hear them pretty much everywhere nowdays when you play games. Those dudes come from society where they still believe in classes. If you are of certain class you are worse than them is literally nazi way.


So instead of being "victim", ignore it and move on, because you can't do anything about it.
Regardless of how much you will use block and mute regardless of how many times someone will be screeching in media, regardless of how much you will fight with it someone at the end of the day will call you faggot.

So the only way to not be a victim is to not be a victim and move on.
Girl ? Find other girls to play with. Voila.
Boy ? Go find other men you like to play with. Voila

Lastly never use ESA statistics or IGDA. Because manipulating data is very simple like in this case.
I am 32 year old i used to play a lot games daily but now i don't play that much.

And yet according to this stat i am main gamer. No i am not. Some kid group is because they spend most of their time playing games while me maybe few hours a week. This is also easily verifiable when you go into chat and you hardly hear adults.

 

[Ribi]

This ain't an issue with videogames though its pretty clear its a social norms issue

 

[Aurelian]

1st.
Why is calling someone "faggot i will kill you" nicer thing than saying someone "i will rape you" ?
Last time i checked killing someone is worse than raping them. Go into any popular game chat and people talk about killing each other, slur, racially abuse so on and so forth. That is literally STANDARD among gamers.

This is why women should be like men and grow the fuck up. Someone saying he will rape you doesn't mean anything period. Reason why after a while you have "clean" chat in some games is because no one is baiting anymore people into verbal fights because no one is taking that bait.

But try to act offended and you will be eaten faster than fresh meat in piranha pond.

2nd
Why do you expect men to behave exactly the same with women in their group online when that does not happen in real life ? Why do you expect men to not act differently when women join games ? That does not happen anywhere, regardless if this is work, home, friends, or even just strangers.

Men who are in group with men behave differently that mixed groups which also behave differently than groups of only women. If you are gamer girl just look for other girl gamers and... voila no rape threats.

If you play randoms you don't expect civility. Welcome to online gaming.

3rd.
Civility itself. The idea that you can change civility on internet is as naive as trying to turn back river.
There are many reason for it. For one you are talking not about your own country but shitload of people who come from not only different backgrounds but entirely different cultures.

Do you think your plea will work for someone who is ok with killing gays and not just in game but real life ? About 90% of muslim world 1,5bln people believe that. How about Indians ? You can hear them pretty much everywhere nowdays when you play games. Those dudes come from society where they still believe in classes. If you are of certain class you are worse than them is literally nazi way.


So instead of being "victim", ignore it and move on, because you can't do anything about it.
Regardless of how much you will use block and mute regardless of how many times someone will be screeching in media, regardless of how much you will fight with it someone at the end of the day will call you faggot.

So the only way to not be a victim is to not be a victim and move on.
Girl ? Find other girls to play with. Voila.
Boy ? Go find other men you like to play with. Voila

Lastly never use ESA statistics or IGDA. Because manipulating data is very simple like in this case.
I am 32 year old i used to play a lot games daily but now i don't play that much.

And yet according to this stat i am main gamer. No i am not. Some kid group is because they spend most of their time playing games while me maybe few hours a week. This is also easily verifiable when you go into chat and you hardly hear adults.

On point 1:

Did I say that it was nicer? No. It absolutely isn't. Homophobia is a problem in game chat, too. But this is a chat about girls and online gaming, so the focus has been on them so far.

And again, instead of being an apologist who excuses and tolerates horrible behavior, how about you actually grow a backbone and condemn that behavior when it comes up? People keep doing it because the community doesn't make it clear that it's unacceptable.

On point 2:

I expect men to behave like decent human beings inside and outside of games. It's a radical concept for you, I know. And I don't think women should have to limit themselves to playing with fellow women just so that they don't have to deal with creeps. How about we make sure there are fewer creeps instead?

On point 3:

I'm sorry, but the notion that we should do nothing because the challenge is daunting is cowardly and defeatist. The situation will never get better if you assume you can never do anything about it. You make what contributions you can. If you can get one creep to stop hitting on every woman he hears in game chat, you've done something. If you can make one woman feel more comfortable sticking with a multiplayer match instead of quitting in disgust, you've done something.

 

[lukilladog]

Most? I know I said "many" are worried about sexual harassment, but there's a big difference between saying "many" and saying "most." Provide evidence, please, or scale back the scope of what you're asserting.

Also, I didn't say "all men" (please don't be That Guy who uses the "not all men" line). It's that women face abuse in multiplayer games that men typically don't. Yeah, most of the men in chat will be civil, but they're not the issue -- it's that there's a disturbingly high chance of one of them being a creep who goes well past the usual trash talking.

You know that most of the verbal attacks and harassment is just people being stupid, and when you ask for people to grow up you are referring to all gamers, because that´s where the 34 year old average comes from. If you are not a sexist you can apologize to men now.

 

[Aurelian]

You know that most of the verbal attacks and harassment is just people being stupid, and when you ask for people to grow up you are referring to all gamers, because that´s where the 34 year old average comes from. If you are not a sexist you can apologize to men now.

Most verbal attacks in general are people being stupid; that's a fairly safe assessment. But most against women? Sorry, but that requires specific evidence. And even if you do, you know that it only takes one creep to completely ruin a game session, right? And only a few to potentially put you off playing that game altogether? That's the issue -- that women, considerably more often than men, have to put up with considerably worse than trash talking and shouldn't be expected to just shrug that off.

And when I say grow up, I don't just mean asking the creeps and sexists to grow up. I also mean that the respectful majority should step up. Don't just pat yourself on the back for not being a jerk online; actively call out those jerks when you see them.

 

[Mistershine.]

How can there be "link" when you measure two groups and they give you different answer based on what they do ?
That is not link anymore but direct result.

The only question here is that study can be replicated. If it can then it is direct fact. Then researchers should find out what is exactly the cause and what mechanism causes this.

Study co-author Professor Lars Wichstrøm, of NTNU, said: 'It might be that poor social competence drives youth's tendency to play video games for extensive periods of time.

'That is, youth who struggle socially might be more inclined to play games to fulfill their need to belong and their desire for mastery because gaming is easily accessible and may be less complicated for them than face-to-face interactions.'

 

[sdrawkcab]

This is very interesting.

What I'd like to consider though, is the reason why girls would game, especially at that age. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so hear me out...

A lot of people use games as a means of escape for some personal problem or circumstance they're experiencing. Could it be, that it's not the video games themselves that caused these social problems with the girls, but that those girls were experiencing similar personal problems that lead them to using video games as a means of escape, and it's the problems they faced in life that's the real cause of their social awkwardness? So, consequently, the playing video games gets the blame...?

Yeah, that's a long stretch, and I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'd really like to know what causes the social damage with girls. Could it be that they're ashamed to admit to other girls that they play video, or discuss it with them, and don't have the same interests as girls their age, so they have to pretend to be interested in the things the other girls are interested in? And so, this leads to their social awkwardness? Again, just fishing with theories here. Maybe I should read the article lol

 

[Dontero]

On point 1:

Did I say that it was nicer? No. It absolutely isn't. Homophobia is a problem in game chat, too. But this is a chat about girls and online gaming, so the focus has been on them so far.

And again, instead of being an apologist who excuses and tolerates horrible behavior, how about you actually grow a backbone and condemn that behavior when it comes up? People keep doing it because the community doesn't make it clear that it's unacceptable.

On point 2:

I expect men to behave like decent human beings inside and outside of games. It's a radical concept for you, I know. And I don't think women should have to limit themselves to playing with fellow women just so that they don't have to deal with creeps. How about we make sure there are fewer creeps instead?

On point 3:

I'm sorry, but the notion that we should do nothing because the challenge is daunting is cowardly and defeatist. The situation will never get better if you assume you can never do anything about it. You make what contributions you can. If you can get one creep to stop hitting on every woman he hears in game chat, you've done something. If you can make one woman feel more comfortable sticking with a multiplayer match instead of quitting in disgust, you've done something.

1. In other words let us ignore that men to men voice chats are vile and focus on mixed chats and expect we can find solution where we can't for men to men chats. If you can't fix men to men chats how do you supposed to fix that in mixed chat ? That is like truing to build house starting from the roof.

2. It doesn't matter if this is radical concept to you or me. What matters is reality. Reality is that group of stragers rarely behave civil in group. So again same issues as above. You expect something from virtual world that doesn't happen in real life.

3. It is not about being defeatist. It is about tackling actual issues and trying to come up with solution that makes sense and is logical. If you whole idea is that you can fix mixed chat before you can fix men to men chat then your whole idea is idiotic and doesn't even deserve any work toward it because it is simply illogical.

So the only logical solution at least for now that is achievable is to:

- Grow thicker skin
- Don't play with randos
- Find girl community and play with them

There is no currently any other logical solution.

And yes you need to entertain idea that this kind of thing could have answer you won't like: "Can't be fixed"
Group behavior is object of studies for decades and so far no one found any answer to it. What makes you think that you can fix online if you can't fix offline ?

The only way so far to properly "fix" it is to completely curb and destroy groups which counters whole point of finding solution.

 

[Kenpachii]

Most verbal attacks in general are people being stupid; that's a fairly safe assessment. But most against women? Sorry, but that requires specific evidence. And even if you do, you know that it only takes one creep to completely ruin a game session, right? And only a few to potentially put you off playing that game altogether? That's the issue -- that women, considerably more often than men, have to put up with considerably worse than trash talking and shouldn't be expected to just shrug that off.

And when I say grow up, I don't just mean asking the creeps and sexists to grow up. I also mean that the respectful majority should step up. Don't just pat yourself on the back for not being a jerk online; actively call out those jerks when you see them.

Go showcase me where a girl got shot death behind her PC because she got swatted?

Go tell me how girls have it worse.

Online games are full with toxic teenagers that do nothing else then make the other guys life misserable for the sake of entertainment.

U biting and getting all upset is exactly what feeds them.

Have you ever been to a school in your life? You learn to deal with this behavior in seconds.

Sorry but you won't find "grown up people" online unless you play older games or tight community's of people in general older people.

U can mute people all day long in games if they can't behave.

 

[Chairman Tickles]

Girls experience negative social development if they spend most of their time playing games because most girls shun that activity, and abuse girls who play games and treat them as outcasts. Simple as that. Boys and men will embrace other boys and men who enjoy a game or three. Many women will look down their nose on female gamers. So these girls who game end up having to try and fit into male social groups, and they often can't because the way men behave in groups is very different to that of women. So these girls who game end up being stuck in no man's land; can't keep up with the hyper competitive boys, shunned by girls.

Anyone blaming men for this is a low-t soyboy dipshit. It's women that exclude female gamers. Men can't be blamed for not being able to integrate outcast girls into their social groups. Women sure as shit don't include outcast men into their groups.

 

[HarryKS]

This study is bullshit. We all know that gender is fluid, a man is a woman as a woman is a man but a woman can also be a man who's a woman and vice-versa.

 

[HyGogg]

Another way to read this is that social structures enforce gender conformity and penalize those who do not conform.

Girls experience negative social development if they spend most of their time playing games because most girls shun that activity, and abuse girls who play games and treat them as outcasts.

Yeah, basically this. It's possible that it can come from both sides, as well, but the more important point is that this is a study about how girl gamers are treated, not about how games affect the minds of girls.

 

[niveaformen]

I think there can be several explanations:

- the type of games they play
- the possibility that girls with tendency to have poor social skills gravitate towards gaming more than "regular" girls
- that the online gaming environment is more aggressive towards girls and makes them susceptible to become introverts

it did say 2 years later, they have a control group. do solitary hobbies/interests also impair these skills... ? Interesting point about the aggressiveness, wonder if they mentioned it

 

[lukilladog]

Most verbal attacks in general are people being stupid; that's a fairly safe assessment. But most against women? Sorry, but that requires specific evidence. And even if you do, you know that it only takes one creep to completely ruin a game session, right? And only a few to potentially put you off playing that game altogether? That's the issue -- that women, considerably more often than men, have to put up with considerably worse than trash talking and shouldn't be expected to just shrug that off.

And when I say grow up, I don't just mean asking the creeps and sexists to grow up. I also mean that the respectful majority should step up. Don't just pat yourself on the back for not being a jerk online; actively call out those jerks when you see them.

Of course most against women, it can´t be other way, only 4% of population are sociopaths. You just have to deal with creeps ruining your precious game sessions individually instead of blaming everyone else, particularly men. I think you are the one that needs to grow up, all those professional victims need to grow up.

 

[Silvawuff]

I'm a woman. I grew up playing video games. Video games saved my life. There are more pros to gaming than cons. If there's any social disparity to blame for problems with social skills, gender and video games are probably last on my list. I think people need to buck up and accept responsibility for their lack of attention/knowledge, and stop blaming a hobby.

 

[drotahorror]

Crap. I have a 10-year-old daughter who loves games.

I don't think I can put that genie back in the bottle now.

Mine's 10 as well and she plays nonstop. She's great in school and likes to play with her friends. Hard to pry her away from Roblox though and lately she's spending hours playing the Danganronpa games. She does spend too much time on them, but it's her passion.

 

[llien]

Come on guys, study shows correlation, it doesn't show hat is causing what.
It might well be (and, in my opinion, is more likely) that girls who have no friends escape from real world like that.

Men in online gemes generally don't have other players hitting on them, implying their entire gender isn't good at games, or threatening to rape them. I've seen that last one happen on a live stream. Many women will purposefully avoid using voice chat or otherwise clearly identifying their gender because they know they'll endure some pretty harsh verbal attacks.

I think you need to differentiate between game types, as I, despite being male, also tend to avoid voice communication (hell, I even was leading raids in WoW with chat only comm).

Chatting with people you know is one thing, getting into group of random people is another.

I also vaguely recall US servers being more aggressive/hostile than EU.

 

[Anesidora]

I've been painfully shy since around the age of three. I gravitated towards games as I grew older because they made me feel less lonely. In my case, games didn't cause me to be socially awkward. Social awkwardness steered me towards gaming.