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manfestival
Member
It is crazy that the berserk story is so good that it held that garbage 3d animation show. The desire for more berserk anything makes just about everything a hit with the license except games(citation needed)
bigedole
Member
Its better just to read the manga.
Is this from the recent anime release? Good lord is it awful lol. When I was reading about how terrible the 3d was, it reminded me of the show Kingdom, where people complain about the 3d a ton especially the first season. But honestly, the show was good enough I could get past it... this just looks awful though haha.
Helios
Member
yeahokaywhatever
Member
There's an upcoming movie, so it won't end there. You may like the series Overlord.
bigedole
Member
Overlord is one of my favorite shows. Hope Madhouse keeps going with it!
Sakura
Member
I will check out the movie when it comes out.
I do like Overlord, but I find it is missing an antagonist to the main cast. There is no real tension, or anything that can pose a risk to Ainz and friends. It is never a question of if they can do something, but simply how they go about doing it.
Shouta
Member
Yeah, I really like Overlord but it lacks real tension and stakes. It also doesn't challenge its main characters even on a talk-y level either which is unfortunate.
The show being technically about the villains and the setting is really what carries the show, I think.
The show being technically about the villains and the setting is really what carries the show, I think.
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RokkanStoned
Member
Well, I'd say a definite antagonist isn't really that suitable for a story like Overlord. It's after all an OP story like One Punch Man, but treading a line between "life is shit and people are bastards" and lots of humor, mixed with a sense of mystery. That said, the Light Novel does point out various looming considerations of threats, as we know of the dragons and their wild magic, we know a bit about the Six Great Gods, the Eight Greed Kings and the Thirteen Heroes and the Evil Dieties, and the Godkins.
The perspective you get is usually not only from Nazarick, but the narrative is often delegated to people/areas of the New World that's going to be explored, and there's a huge amount of world building, leading to the tension being the characters you learn to love and how they will fare with Nazarick being involved somewhat. With the large amount of world building and hints that Maruyama puts out, we also can never be sure what's out there, like with what happened to Shalltear in season 1. So there's a mystery aspect to it as well, with a build up happening to larger conflicts.
There's also various dangers being posed in the narrative itself, whether the denizens of Nazarick being freer and acting agents, whether they'll at some point be a risk to Nazarick itself. You also have Albedo's sister Rubedo (skipped mentioning her in the anime), where hintings of possible future danger lies, where Maruyama never makes it clear whether she'll be great or a disaster for Nazarick. There's also Demiurge who's constantly "Sasuga!"'ing over Ainz, to the point where he might fully believe that Ainz is all knowing and that whatever he throws at Ainz, he'll believe that Ainz has it all under control.
Lots of potential grounds for tension, but it's laid all over in the book instead. Ainz is also the story's own antagonist as well, as in vol 7 (The Invaders of the Great Tomb), where Ainz - especially in the LN - shows his hand as a sad, almost pathetic coward, clinging to a past he idolizes. He's in a way his own enemy as well.
Again, as I tell most people, read the LN. The anime is basically advertisement for the LN. Vol 7 got really shafted for all the build-up it had. Foresight was an extremely great group that the anime doesn't do justice.
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bigedole
Member
Honestly, I loved the way we were led to look at them sympathetically and given hope that they would find some common ground/escape from the situation, and then they were just brutally crushed anyways lol. I think that's what makes the show unique, as you said it's being presented from the perspective of the proverbial bad guys. But they're not really the bad guys.
Sakura
Member
Don't get me wrong. Like I said, I like Overlord, and I enjoy the setting and world that has been built. But nothing shown has really posed a threat to Nazarick. Even people who are considered to be the strongest warriors, just die instantly without being able to put up a fight. Everything else is just hypotheticals. Like, well maybe this or that could happen which might pose a threat, but nothing really yet. As you say, potential grounds for tension, but no actual tension really exists at this point. So I think it is very different from something like Youjo Senki.
Shouta
Member
I liked Foresight and I have no doubt the LNs build them up better but that doesn't really change what happens to them in the end. In fact, building them even more would make the conclusion to that even less palatable because I want the story to address the lack of rational morality on Ains' part in that whole situation which is the giant ass elephant in the room there, from a reader perspective.
Part of what makes One-Punch Man endearing despite the curb-stomp power of Saitama is that we get to see the side characters get developed and watch them struggle against threats. They may get beat but we can cheer on the underdog there. But with Overlord, Nazarick is typically on the opposite side of that conflict and thus we lose that underdog element to cheering on the new world characters. We know they're gonna lose or there might be some silly thing to happen let them live a little longer because they aren't the focus of the show. Since we know the conclusion, it's hard to really get invested in anything other than the moving pieces.
That is the show's strength, lots of things that are going on at any given time. It's like watching a strategy map with a bunch of icons moving around. It's just harder to get into it the same way I can with a more focused series though.
Part of what makes One-Punch Man endearing despite the curb-stomp power of Saitama is that we get to see the side characters get developed and watch them struggle against threats. They may get beat but we can cheer on the underdog there. But with Overlord, Nazarick is typically on the opposite side of that conflict and thus we lose that underdog element to cheering on the new world characters. We know they're gonna lose or there might be some silly thing to happen let them live a little longer because they aren't the focus of the show. Since we know the conclusion, it's hard to really get invested in anything other than the moving pieces.
That is the show's strength, lots of things that are going on at any given time. It's like watching a strategy map with a bunch of icons moving around. It's just harder to get into it the same way I can with a more focused series though.
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bigedole
Member
I'm not sure I understand your point. What is the realistic difference between alchemy boy at the end of the first arc this season fighting the Troll and bicycle-chan in OPM? It's basically the same thing, and you empathize with both. The New World characters and their struggles have basically been at the center of every arc while Ainz and Nazarick are there for enjoyable comeuppance pretty much. Not every show has to be about the heroes struggling to grow/overcome odds, right? This one is about uncertain quasi-villains stomping their way through the New World while meeting/befriending people who do struggle and mostly fail but sometimes overcome too with some help.
The dynamic between Ainz and Nazarick, and Ainz/Nazarick and the rest of the world are at the heart of what makes the story entertaining for me. But I also managed to enjoy Irregular at Magic High, Problem children from another world and King's Avatar (Especially this, really liked this show!) because sometimes it's just fun to watch the guys you don't like get stomped.
RokkanStoned
Member
Of course we've been shown threats to Nazarick. The first season even had one. The problem with "strongest warriors" in the NW is the scale is way different, where you're basically a national hero at about lvl 30. Still, season 2 surprised you with a group of adventurers trashing one of the Pleiades. The whole sense of experiencing Overlord is that not only is Ainz a big coward that's paranoid about everything and being overly careful, but there's also legitimate threats that's lying there that Maruyama is keeping just to possibly fuck you up. It's different from most "tension" in other animes, where you can pretty much discount any fear of things going wrong. In Overlord Maruyama is floating so many possible ideas that he's grounded in his writing, possibly exploring only some of them. In vol 11 we get to know about a place that's probably never going to explored, but giving a real sense of the unknown and possibly questioning whether Ainz should explore it.
Again, the tension is certainly there, but the anime never really gives you the information, the space or the build up to it. People the last 2 volumes in suspense over one thing in the part of the current arc in the LN. Everyone knew Maruyama can easily take an unpopular direction. Like with how Arche's fate was changed from the web novel. There's even a danger being considered in this very arc that'll be brought up.
That's why I always recommend the Light Novels, as they truly reflect the story and it's pacing.
The build-up of Foresight makes for the best perspective on Ainz, because you've learned how he ticks and while you've been fanboying for him most of the time, the shock of your misunderstanding of Ainz and your realization of Ainz clashing, it creates a moment where you understand both sides and you'll admit that Ainz isn't a good guy, but you understand what's driving him and why he does what he does.
Hekkeran accurately senses part of Ainz's character in the confrontation:
It was a question that only a person paralyzed by indecision would ask, because only by asking could a person know what was true or false.
It was a purely human attitude, Hekkeran thought. It wasn’t the reaction of a monster, but of a coward. This was a good chance.
In regards to Overlord you'll find yourself cheering on the underdog and the for the OP, even if they come in conflict. You try to hope for a solution where mercy will be spared. You try to also hope no one of Nazarick is killed as well, because Ainz's cowardice and paranoia would be overwhelmed by his rage and would not bode well for a good part of the world. The world of Overlord isn't supposed to be fair and things like Nazarick are at an inherent advantage against most people.
In a sense the world building is Overlord's strength and in general Ainz has kept things pretty much on the down low, because he's been so cautious. This also means that the threats that exist haven't been made aware of Nazarick, nor have we explored even near enough of the world.
There's so much mystery, like something that'll never get mentioned in the anime, like the fact that Clementine's body went missing.
So I feel like the tension is a more slow-mounting one and it's also the fact that you never know what'll happen. Who knows, there might be possibly even be Ainz dying. If I'd give a comparison to what experiencing the Overlord universe is like, it'd be like the wild speculations and lore considerations in Soulsborne games. I mean, we even have big things in regard to the real world in Overlord, about the dystopia and meetings between guild members and mega corporate conspiracies.
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SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Germany loses
Pejo
Gold Member
Animation aside, i was just so happy to finally see more than the Golden Arc over and over again. Has it been confirmed dead again, or is there a chance we'll get more?
I'm really getting tired of anime where the MC constantly picks the wrong girl. Re:Zero was the first one that came to mind. Now we have that Einhjar anime and the Reunion one, they're both doing it.
I've been enjoying Black Clover lately, though this arc isn't nearly as good as the last one, and the opening theme is way way worse than Black Rover. It's basically just bleach/DBZ with a new coat of paint, but whatever.
Sorry for the disjointed thoughts, it's been a while since I posted anything about the anime I've been watching.
I've also been re-watching Rirouni Kenshin slowly, what a classic.
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SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Waifu wars not even once
Shouta
Member
I'm not sure I understand your point. What is the realistic difference between alchemy boy at the end of the first arc this season fighting the Troll and bicycle-chan in OPM? It's basically the same thing, and you empathize with both. The New World characters and their struggles have basically been at the center of every arc while Ainz and Nazarick are there for enjoyable comeuppance pretty much. Not every show has to be about the heroes struggling to grow/overcome odds, right? This one is about uncertain quasi-villains stomping their way through the New World while meeting/befriending people who do struggle and mostly fail but sometimes overcome too with some help.
The dynamic between Ainz and Nazarick, and Ainz/Nazarick and the rest of the world are at the heart of what makes the story entertaining for me. But I also managed to enjoy Irregular at Magic High, Problem children from another world and King's Avatar (Especially this, really liked this show!) because sometimes it's just fun to watch the guys you don't like get stomped.
Those two situations are pretty similar but really, the situation with Nphriea isn't nearly as tense or heroic because of the details. Spoilers just in case folks haven't watched either yet.
The entire Carne Village attack was orchestrated and we knew that Lupus was watching over the village. In addition to Ains making it clear he had an interest in Nphri's alchemical talents drains any sort of tension from the scene itself because we know that nothing is going to go wrong at that point. With Mumen Rider, it's an attack by a real villain who also happened to down a bunch of heroes including Genos, a major character. There was also the tension of whether Saitama would make it in time to save everyone. He does but we don't know if or when he would show up because of the Sea King being able to rampage like he did.
In addition, the point of Mumen Rider standing up there was far more dramatic and interesting because he's standing up to a monster with no powers of his own with a high chance of him dying. Nphri actually was tricking the Troll and had his own skills to try and do something as well. When you combine that with the situation, it's just stuff happening
In addition, the point of Mumen Rider standing up there was far more dramatic and interesting because he's standing up to a monster with no powers of his own with a high chance of him dying. Nphri actually was tricking the Troll and had his own skills to try and do something as well. When you combine that with the situation, it's just stuff happening
Not every show needs to be about heroes struggling. That wasn't my point either. It's that the conflicts are all basically one-note because there's no real stakes at all. The new world characters can't touch Nazarick at all in a fight and, up until this point, there's been nothing the New World folks have done strategically, intellectually, etc that makes them interacting with Nazarick engaging. Can you imagine how much more engaging it would be to see if the conflicts between Nazarick and everyone else if there was actually some back and forth between them in these? Up until now it's been all in service to making Ains and Nazarick look overpowered which I guess is to be expect considering it's an isekai show.
As I said to bigdole, the conflicts aren't particularly engaging because of the way the dynamics created by the set-up of the series works. Granted, that's not what makes Overlord interesting as a whole, the world-building is what makes the series. It'd just be so much more engaging on a encounter to encounter basis if we didn't know how things turned out or that the standing of Nazarick actually could potentially change as a result of it.
In many respects, Maruyama is like the writers of the Kiseki series from Falcom. There's this strong sense of direction, world-building, and long-game but man, the individual moments leading up to it can be incredibly weak until you get the bigger picture. I really wish it was more like the Yakuza games where there's this overarching sense of how the plots fits together but each individual story is tense and works well on its own.
Just to be clear, I don't have an issue with the show myself as there's a lot of subtext that is under the surface. The show doesn't need the extra monologue and all that to get some of the core character stuff in there like with Ains. I just have problems with what's actually occurring and that's an issue with the source material, lol.
bigedole
Member
Is Black Clover worth watching? It's rated so low on MAL, and I really really dislike shows with whiney MCs unless that whineyness is short lived in the service of good character development.
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SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Its Naruto basically.
Pejo
Gold Member
MC is actually one of the least whiny in a shounen series that I've seen. He's extremely one-dimensional though, but yea, it's enjoyable enough. Animation varies greatly between eps, but I've wached much worse.
Sakura
Member
To be honest I think it would be really cool if a member of Nazarick was killed. I don't have a problem with the series being from the perspective of the "bad guys", but I would enjoy it way more if there were people that could stand up to them. It's not even just in terms of raw power. In terms of political skills or "intelligence", Nazarick seems to be above everyone else so far. Even if they couldn't stand up to a straight fight, I would love to see a human nation outmanoeuver Nazarick politically. Just give me something that shows the entire world isn't a push over.
RokkanStoned
Member
See, this is what I can't take seriously. There are indeed stakes, but they have various levels to them. There's the stake of the people being given the narrative, there's the stake of the other members of Nazarick, etc. If you care about the overall stakes, there's the various threats to Nazarick looming in the background, possibly being made aware or forced to deal with Ainz.
We've already learned that the NW can touch Nazarick in a fight as well, with season 2 cementing that. Season 3 will point out another one as well.
I think you're perspective is assuming that a level 100 character walking in the lvl 1-30 zone, keeping it mostly on the downlow, will be a good representation. Back and forth assumes equal forces, but if you're end-game level, you're not expecting in a large world, for your raid bosses or other lvl 100s to come walking to you instantly. Especially if you're a coward that's paranoid. To me it seems like a very narrow way of approaching tension in fiction, because tension can be easily dismissed in most series and even then they usually are one-offs or small setbacks making for the next turnabout.
The tension, from the perspective of the LN, is exploring the world, trying to solve the mystery, wondering what'll happen to characters,
If you assume you know how things'll turn out from an encounter-to-encounter basis, that seems to me like that the you've taken into the perception that Nazarick will never lose. And again, this is an OP story, much like One Punch Man, but from a different angle. It has reasons for worry, but if what's back of your mind is "Nazarick will never lose" then that'll just poison your experience of it, more so it's not the experience of most people reading it. They can indeed possibly lose, but don't expect some idealized and heroic person like Climb to make a big surprise. Don't expect to go beyond your limits and find some amazing thing. People aren't equal in Overlord. They might lose their standing, but this is not the story of the underdog. This is a story of Nazarick the great force, sometimes in opposition, sometimes just as support, against/to Nazarick. I think it's not something that can be dismissed about "no back and forth", because that's not what tension is about, nor is it
I'll just blatantly point out the obvious things that threatens Nazarick:
Godkins (descendents of other players mating with NW people), other players (Ainz was only one, but previously there's been I imagine at least 20 other players, with forces likely surpassing Nazarick, and likely going to be more in the future), True Dragon Lords and their wild magic (even a blade that can cut anything due to being imbued with it), a more specific True Dragon Lord like Deep Darkness Dragon Lord, who has killed a player or the hints towards a possible Rubedo betrayal.
One of these things got mentioned in the movie pamphlet from what I assume is the recap movie of season 1:
The Deep Darkness Dragon Lord, who annihilated the players 300 years ago. Possess the ?????, one of the 20 world-class items, in his possession. His unique magic is damn strong and both his offense and defense is flawless, but unfortunately Shalltear is his nemesis. Against any other Floor Guardian, he would likely be victorious... Don’t fight one-on-one? Deploy the Gargantua? Don’t say that...
I assume that you just don't like how the tension is presented, because it seems like you acknowledge that major characters in an arc might die, and I assume you acknowledge that at least part of Nazarick can lose and thus some possibly damage to their standing can occur, and more so there are things that can screw up Nazarick as evidenced by season 1. Some of this might be the fault of the anime, because it's really lacking the rhythm of the LN and the sense of mystery oozing, but it's also okay not to like the circumstances of the story as well, though I will vehemently disagree on there being no tension or stakes in the story. Lots of stories don't work by a conventional hero's tale tension or the need for conflict or even threat of loss to give tension.
I mean, what are you expecting with Ainz trying to stay hidden since episode 2 of the first season, being a clearly OP character, with NPC settings being realized in the NW?
It is unfair, especially towards humans who are extremely weak in this world. This isn't a situation where things are equal, you can't politically outmaneuver someone holding the power over you, someone who you can't really read, someone who feeds you into prejudices of undeath. That's not to say that there aren't hints of possible human nations or humans that might outmaneuver them. However, it's obviously not a likely scenario. More so when you consider that the nobles don't know the threat of Nazarick and with them having their own internal struggles for power.
Again, this is an OP story from the get go. Tension isn't going to be from pure fighting or from a large foe appearing or someone marching in crushing someone. Strength is the absolutely most valued thing in the NW. Overlord is really more of a mystery story based in an RPG world where you are just experiencing a tiny part of the world, containing mostly lvl 1-30 people, where the main character is level 100 and paranoid. Even ganking scrubs he's worried about something happening and trying to use any precautions to avoid losses. I assume it's just the circumstances that make you cheer for someone bringing the big dog down a peg, but personally I felt like such a victory had already happened in vol 7 (The Invaders of the Great Tomb arc). It's not like you're playing some dungeon scenario where the Dungeon Keeper sends out conveniently equal forces.
I guess for some it's just the mix of an OP story, a evil leaning main character, the mix of horror and comedy, and the slow method of exploring the world due to Ainz's caution, that might feel jarring for some. In a way Overlord could play out in 1-2 days as well, if everyone just went all out, but even then there's no certainty that if they won that their rule would survive after the next 100 years or the next 100 years after that. It'll mostly be about your faith in the OP part of the story and glorification of Ainz and his power.
Then again, Philip will obviously destroy Ainz in the end anyways, once his plans play out. "Weakness is a sin".
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Shouta
Member
I have no problem with what the story is doing in regards to building anticipation for down the line. I do have a problem from event to event because the skeleton (pun intended) the story is running on isn't as engaging as it could be. For example, the encounter between Jircniv and Ains in the current anime arc is a fairly short political exchange and it doesn't really have the two actually engage with each other in a meaty way for viewer to watch. It's Jircniv monologuing shit afterwards and a "SASUGA, Ains-sama" moment where things occur. That works to move the story further but it's just way less interesting than if Jircniv and Ains had actually probed each other in their discussion directly. The episode is titled War of Words but they don't actually go back and forth with each other. It would have been so much more interesting if Jircniv tried to push as much as possible for information without pissing off Ains or seeing how he handles Jircniv's line of questioning, etc. Yeah, I'm engaged with where it led but it would have been so much more enjoyable to see those two actually go at it verbally.
Another example would be with Foresight. It would have been so much more interesting if the encounter and exchange with Ains gave this glimmer of hope that they'd actually get away by appealing to his humanity, or whatever's left of it lol, through the other characters getting him to think more intently and get his potential rationality to work there. It'd give more insight Ains directly and show a bit of potential weakness in him without hosing his power levels at all. The exchange as it is just so mundane and there's no hint of them getting anywhere safely in their dialogue, it's just a matter of how cruel of fate awaited them.
The anime is set for this upcoming Winter season. How different is the manga vs the light novel? Is it just mostly exposition? I really enjoy the manga myself especially as someone that can get a lot of info visually.
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SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Didn't they fix the ending in later adaptations cause it was too edge?
Hudo
Member
Excited for the anime! The manga and the light novel don't differ that much, if I remember correctly. But I found the interal monologue of Naofumi beneficial to his character and making some motivations and actions more understandable. You can see parts of it in the manga but it's toned back quite a lot, IMHO. I think the most aggravating thing about the manga is its slow release schedule. The light novel is far ahead.
Could be, I don't know, yet. But what I do know is that the light novel (and the manga) is diverting quite a lot from the original web novel. But I do agree that the ending of the web novel was quite something, lol.
RokkanStoned
Member
See, the problem you have seem to be more focused about the anime format. Because in the LN we take the perspective of Jircniv. He's being pretty sensible in his meeting with something so absurd as Nazarick. We get an idea of where he's going with what he's doing, trying to calculate what Ainz is doing.
"A faint pang of relief ran through Jircniv. His voice was more normal than he expected
― like that of a human being. If that was the case, reading him from his words might yet be
possible. “I humbly thank you for your most generous welcome, Ainz Ooal Gown-dono.”
One could not read facial expressions from a skull. What sort of greeting would best fit the
current situation? Jircniv carefully pondered that question."
[...]
"Countless feelings danced up in Jircniv’s heart. He was cautious, because he realized
that Ainz was not the type who handled matters solely with brute force. Clearly, he was a
cunning person, and had to be watched carefully. Similarly, he was relieved, because Ainz
was not the type who handled matters solely with brute force. At least, he did not seem like
someone who would wipe Jircniv out without bothering with negotiations."
[...]
At the same time, Jircniv had the sickening realization that everything that had
happened so far had occurred in accordance to Ainz Ooal Gown’s wishes. It was the ominous
feeling that everything had taken place just as Ainz had planned. “There is no need to
apologize for that, Gown-dono. It is not uncommon for subordinates to act as they please
from time to time. Citizens from our Empire have done the same themselves. That, I must
apologize for.”
[...]
One of the royal guards who had been released from the domination began moving,
and placed an urn beside Jircniv in a worried, panicky manner. Jircniv should have
immediately taken it up, but he was delayed by his thoughts. Were the actions of Gown’s minion
intended to make me say what I just did? If that’s the case, should I go off-script? No, that’s not an
option. This is like a staged fight with real blades. A single misstep will result in severe injuries… that
would be very bad.
[...]
“There is no need for you to apologize. It will be fine if you return home. After all, we
will be getting very busy over here shortly.” Ainz shrugged, like he had been kidding. Jircniv
had no idea what was going on any longer. Could it be that the apology was just a pretext to
get him to come here in order to fulfil some other objective? That clearly seemed to be the
case, but the circumstances seemed far too strange to be explained away like this. Something
wasn’t adding up here. Wait a minute? What did he just say?
“Forgive me, but what did you mean by ‘getting very busy’?”
“Thanks to this incident, we now know that we will be drawn into troublesome matters
even if we try to remain uninvolved. That being the case, I was thinking that we should move
to the surface and begin taking care of those matters ourselves.”
“That, that would mean…”
“First, we will have those fools who tried to harm us pay an appropriate price. After
that, we will crush all the troublesome people we encounter until the peace I so cherish is
restored.”
These words were the ranting of a lunatic. No ― that would be wrong. He was not mad.
When one considered Ainz Ooal Gown’s personal, military and economic strength, those
words were not mad at all. It was only Jircniv ― blinded by his limited experience ― who
found it hard to accept the facts. Ainz Ooal Gown was a man who could do what he said.
An uncontrollable feeling of dread welled up from beneath Jircniv’s feet. The Great
Tomb of Nazarick. What was supposed to have been a sleeping giant had been roused, and
it was about to begin a reign of terror on the surface world. Could it be that he called me here for
this? Is this a declaration of war? What should I do? Ainz Ooal Gown is essentially declaring war on
the Empire! Should I kneel before him for here the sake of the future?
In truth, that might have been the wisest thing to do. However― there would be no
pleasant fate in store for them if they accepted a monster’s rule. There was a possibility that
Ainz might simply kill everyone in the Empire and reanimate them as more Death Knights.
It might be a more agonizing fate than simple death. Jircniv racked his brains like he had
never done before in his life. By right, he should have brought this question back and
consulted with dozens of sages over what the proper course of action should be. But by then,
it would be too late. With a smile that cut through everything, Jircniv spoke, “I have a
proposal. How about forming an alliance?”
[...]
“I see. Then, let it be so. I will leave the details to you.” Jircniv was left speechless at the
speed with which Ainz had agreed to the proposal. He had not expected that at all. He could
not even muster up the will to say anything else. To begin with… Why didn’t he ask me to swear
loyalty to him? As an overwhelmingly superior individual in an infinitely advantageous position, why
would he even accept an offer of alliance? He had prepared dozens of answers for when Ainz
demanded fealty from him. But Ainz’ answer had exceeded the scope of Jircniv’s predictions.
What was he up to? Jircniv could not understand Ainz’ thinking at all. When battling a
stronger opponent, a weaker man would consider how to turn his opponent’s strength
against himself and trip him up. This was how one exploited the arrogance of the strong. But
if the stronger opponent was not an arrogant being, then that tactic was unusable. The weaker
man’s only way of fighting would have no effect. Ainz must have been thinking that way. He
would never act in an arrogant way that let others exploit him. No…
It’s possible that everything up till now has been going according to Ainz’ plans. After all, the
delay in his replies was far too short. Did that mean he already predicted all my possible choices and
prepared the appropriate responses? Jircniv was keenly aware that the terror that accompanied
Ainz Ooal Gown did not stem merely from his matchless might, but also from his
unfathomable intellect.
[...]
If all was really going as Ainz planned, then there was no way he would not have
thought of everything. Therefore, the meaning behind his words were obvious. These words
must be a ploy as well. He must have thought that if he stated his demands immediately, he would be
seen through. This monster sure has a lot of schemes. Or rather… perhaps it’s because he’s a monster
that his intellect surpasses that of humanity.
― like that of a human being. If that was the case, reading him from his words might yet be
possible. “I humbly thank you for your most generous welcome, Ainz Ooal Gown-dono.”
One could not read facial expressions from a skull. What sort of greeting would best fit the
current situation? Jircniv carefully pondered that question."
[...]
"Countless feelings danced up in Jircniv’s heart. He was cautious, because he realized
that Ainz was not the type who handled matters solely with brute force. Clearly, he was a
cunning person, and had to be watched carefully. Similarly, he was relieved, because Ainz
was not the type who handled matters solely with brute force. At least, he did not seem like
someone who would wipe Jircniv out without bothering with negotiations."
[...]
At the same time, Jircniv had the sickening realization that everything that had
happened so far had occurred in accordance to Ainz Ooal Gown’s wishes. It was the ominous
feeling that everything had taken place just as Ainz had planned. “There is no need to
apologize for that, Gown-dono. It is not uncommon for subordinates to act as they please
from time to time. Citizens from our Empire have done the same themselves. That, I must
apologize for.”
[...]
One of the royal guards who had been released from the domination began moving,
and placed an urn beside Jircniv in a worried, panicky manner. Jircniv should have
immediately taken it up, but he was delayed by his thoughts. Were the actions of Gown’s minion
intended to make me say what I just did? If that’s the case, should I go off-script? No, that’s not an
option. This is like a staged fight with real blades. A single misstep will result in severe injuries… that
would be very bad.
[...]
“There is no need for you to apologize. It will be fine if you return home. After all, we
will be getting very busy over here shortly.” Ainz shrugged, like he had been kidding. Jircniv
had no idea what was going on any longer. Could it be that the apology was just a pretext to
get him to come here in order to fulfil some other objective? That clearly seemed to be the
case, but the circumstances seemed far too strange to be explained away like this. Something
wasn’t adding up here. Wait a minute? What did he just say?
“Forgive me, but what did you mean by ‘getting very busy’?”
“Thanks to this incident, we now know that we will be drawn into troublesome matters
even if we try to remain uninvolved. That being the case, I was thinking that we should move
to the surface and begin taking care of those matters ourselves.”
“That, that would mean…”
“First, we will have those fools who tried to harm us pay an appropriate price. After
that, we will crush all the troublesome people we encounter until the peace I so cherish is
restored.”
These words were the ranting of a lunatic. No ― that would be wrong. He was not mad.
When one considered Ainz Ooal Gown’s personal, military and economic strength, those
words were not mad at all. It was only Jircniv ― blinded by his limited experience ― who
found it hard to accept the facts. Ainz Ooal Gown was a man who could do what he said.
An uncontrollable feeling of dread welled up from beneath Jircniv’s feet. The Great
Tomb of Nazarick. What was supposed to have been a sleeping giant had been roused, and
it was about to begin a reign of terror on the surface world. Could it be that he called me here for
this? Is this a declaration of war? What should I do? Ainz Ooal Gown is essentially declaring war on
the Empire! Should I kneel before him for here the sake of the future?
In truth, that might have been the wisest thing to do. However― there would be no
pleasant fate in store for them if they accepted a monster’s rule. There was a possibility that
Ainz might simply kill everyone in the Empire and reanimate them as more Death Knights.
It might be a more agonizing fate than simple death. Jircniv racked his brains like he had
never done before in his life. By right, he should have brought this question back and
consulted with dozens of sages over what the proper course of action should be. But by then,
it would be too late. With a smile that cut through everything, Jircniv spoke, “I have a
proposal. How about forming an alliance?”
[...]
“I see. Then, let it be so. I will leave the details to you.” Jircniv was left speechless at the
speed with which Ainz had agreed to the proposal. He had not expected that at all. He could
not even muster up the will to say anything else. To begin with… Why didn’t he ask me to swear
loyalty to him? As an overwhelmingly superior individual in an infinitely advantageous position, why
would he even accept an offer of alliance? He had prepared dozens of answers for when Ainz
demanded fealty from him. But Ainz’ answer had exceeded the scope of Jircniv’s predictions.
What was he up to? Jircniv could not understand Ainz’ thinking at all. When battling a
stronger opponent, a weaker man would consider how to turn his opponent’s strength
against himself and trip him up. This was how one exploited the arrogance of the strong. But
if the stronger opponent was not an arrogant being, then that tactic was unusable. The weaker
man’s only way of fighting would have no effect. Ainz must have been thinking that way. He
would never act in an arrogant way that let others exploit him. No…
It’s possible that everything up till now has been going according to Ainz’ plans. After all, the
delay in his replies was far too short. Did that mean he already predicted all my possible choices and
prepared the appropriate responses? Jircniv was keenly aware that the terror that accompanied
Ainz Ooal Gown did not stem merely from his matchless might, but also from his
unfathomable intellect.
[...]
If all was really going as Ainz planned, then there was no way he would not have
thought of everything. Therefore, the meaning behind his words were obvious. These words
must be a ploy as well. He must have thought that if he stated his demands immediately, he would be
seen through. This monster sure has a lot of schemes. Or rather… perhaps it’s because he’s a monster
that his intellect surpasses that of humanity.
That's also without considering the other parts that were cut out, like:
how Jircniv imagines that Ainz planned to send Demiurge to the Emperor and use his abilities of "brainwash"ing, while also gaving a scapegoat in Demiurge. Heck, Ainz proposes for him and his party to stay the night and Jircniv becomes terrified at the prospect of Demiurge mind controlling everyone. Some of the point of the War of the Words is seeing the Emperor playing himself while thinking far too deeply about outplaying Ainz.
As we learn from Ainz's perspective after the meeting:
"When it came to Demiurge’s plan, however, Ainz was desperately flailing in the dark.
The actual talks with Jircniv Rune Farlord El-Nix had been played entirely off the cuff,
trusting that there would be a way through no matter what. As for how confident he was of
having said the right thing during the negotiations… well, simply put, he had no confidence
at all."
Ainz is caught under the overwhelming expectations people have for him and in a way the terror of things going out of control is tearing him apart. In a way Ainz himself and Nazarick are their own worst enemies and Ainz loses complete control at times and the people of Nazarick believe him to be infallible and make things even worse for him because they suspect he's seen 10 steps ahead.
Because a lot of this is ever present, presenting the narrative of someone losing control and also being part of an organization that's almost too big to fail, with zealous underlings, playing up the comedy part.
Ainz further mentions how:
"If they did not know his motives, then the chances of them accidentally working against
his aims would be higher. In particular, two of the Guardians felt uneasy about this lack of
knowledge, namely Shalltear and Sebas, who had already committed mistakes in the past.
Both of them watched Ainz with eager faces, ears pricked up so they would not miss a single
word of Ainz’ answer.
Ainz suppressed the stress he felt from being the focus of everyone’s attention, and
searched for a way out of this predicament. First, I need to decide whether or not to affirm or deny
Shalltear and Aura’s words. If I affirm them, that means conquering the Empire is part of the plan. If
I deny them, it means we won’t be conquering the Empire for now… but which side are Demiurge and
Albedo hoping for? Oh no, not good, I took too long…With a cold smile on his face, Ainz laughed.
He took a deep breath. The odds were one in two. If he screwed up here, all he would have
to do was change the course somehow. And besides―
Shalltear is always messing up, so I should reject her in this! “I feel that would be a foolish
course of action, Shalltear." The light in the Guardians’ eyes brightened as they heard Ainz'
words. That was probably not a mistake. After hearing the words of their great master, they
might be able to gain some wisdom from that erudite mind of his. I’m not what you think I am!
Ainz looked over to Demiurge. In order not to be mistaken as a full-fledged cry for help, he
began softly and carefully."
As we learn from Ainz's perspective after the meeting:
"When it came to Demiurge’s plan, however, Ainz was desperately flailing in the dark.
The actual talks with Jircniv Rune Farlord El-Nix had been played entirely off the cuff,
trusting that there would be a way through no matter what. As for how confident he was of
having said the right thing during the negotiations… well, simply put, he had no confidence
at all."
Ainz is caught under the overwhelming expectations people have for him and in a way the terror of things going out of control is tearing him apart. In a way Ainz himself and Nazarick are their own worst enemies and Ainz loses complete control at times and the people of Nazarick believe him to be infallible and make things even worse for him because they suspect he's seen 10 steps ahead.
Because a lot of this is ever present, presenting the narrative of someone losing control and also being part of an organization that's almost too big to fail, with zealous underlings, playing up the comedy part.
Ainz further mentions how:
"If they did not know his motives, then the chances of them accidentally working against
his aims would be higher. In particular, two of the Guardians felt uneasy about this lack of
knowledge, namely Shalltear and Sebas, who had already committed mistakes in the past.
Both of them watched Ainz with eager faces, ears pricked up so they would not miss a single
word of Ainz’ answer.
Ainz suppressed the stress he felt from being the focus of everyone’s attention, and
searched for a way out of this predicament. First, I need to decide whether or not to affirm or deny
Shalltear and Aura’s words. If I affirm them, that means conquering the Empire is part of the plan. If
I deny them, it means we won’t be conquering the Empire for now… but which side are Demiurge and
Albedo hoping for? Oh no, not good, I took too long…With a cold smile on his face, Ainz laughed.
He took a deep breath. The odds were one in two. If he screwed up here, all he would have
to do was change the course somehow. And besides―
Shalltear is always messing up, so I should reject her in this! “I feel that would be a foolish
course of action, Shalltear." The light in the Guardians’ eyes brightened as they heard Ainz'
words. That was probably not a mistake. After hearing the words of their great master, they
might be able to gain some wisdom from that erudite mind of his. I’m not what you think I am!
Ainz looked over to Demiurge. In order not to be mistaken as a full-fledged cry for help, he
began softly and carefully."
So, the kind of tension that's ever present in scenes with Ainz never gets translated well in the anime. Same with Foresight where they absolutely had Ainz going, where the single mistakes of using the wrong name cost them. And that's just because of Ainz choices early in season 1. It's also a reflection on Ainz himself, how human and pathetic he is, while still being an undead.
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S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Is it ever explained just HOW he is trapped in the game?
Shouta
Member
I didn't have that problem with the manga myself. The motivations and actions were pretty understandable based on what's presented, as far as the manga has made it anyway. What parts did you feel like Naofumi benefited from the inner monologue?
That's a problem not with the anime to me though. It's an issue with the original source material. The author is relying on that exposition to texture what's happening between the characters for the reader. It's telling us that Jircniv is tense but when you look at the actual interaction without that exposition, are the characters saying things that could make each other nervous or is there a tell that they're nervous in how they're speaking to each other? The anime just makes it clear how it's lacking because there's only the dialogue and some of the visual stuff but no text to supplement it. That goes for a lot of the other stuff happening as well. That text can't be adapted wholesale into the anime and as a result, what we're getting is just what happens. It shows just how the encounters with Nazarick and the New World is just so flat.
What's actually interesting though is that the problem is kind of isolated. The interactions the New World has with itself and the interactions Nazarick has with itself actually work fairly well. It's just when you mix the the two that issues arise. The only interaction between Nazarick and the New World that I thought really worked was Brain and Shalltear but that was using the underdog challenging a greater foe dynamic. The Season 2 fight with Entoma might have been good if it weren't for the huge ass asterisk in that encounter, lol.
Hudo
Member
Shouta
Member
Ah, that. It's clear in the manga too, I think. The way he talks to others and the visual stuff help there. His expressions and mannerisms change pretty clearly as he begins to get familiar with someone. He does monologue a bit as well but I'd imagine it's not as much as the novel version.
RokkanStoned
Member
You're not really pointing out the issue with the source material here. Your objection makes no sense to me, as not only is there stuttering and asking to repeat something within said conversation, but we're also dealing with high level politics here in the form of someone with a literal blank face, from an absurd position of power and someone else who's extremely good at remaining his composure and keeping it cool. That's kind of the point of the internal thoughts, as what we're witnessing is a battle to outsmart the other, with a clear disadvantage from the outset. There's a big contrast between what Jircniv is thinking and how he's trying to present himself.
What the anime fails at is pacing and framing of the situation, since you don't have the perspective that the LN takes. It's mostly just running through the scene for the most part, never trying to pace things to allow for a better sense of tension in the scenes. The experience of time in the narrative of the LN and in the anime is very different. Calling something flat when it's supposed to be a case of intense internal turmoil and outer poker face, just seems absurd and more so like unwarranted criticism.
More so, you're not really pointing out how they are flat, especially taking consideration the perspective the source material takes. We're getting Jircniv's actual thoughts, as the narrative is split between the outer narrator telling us the context ("as Jircniv heard") and Jircniv yelling in his mind "So it's not just Roune, he wants to get everyone here as well?!". If one was supposed to tell everything with outer cues, it would pretty much ruin the whole situation and misrepresent Jircniv. More so since Jircniv also keep various things mostly to himself and it drives further subplots in the future volumes.
Is your experience of flatness actually just your dislike of the general theme of Nazarick indifference to people not from Nazarick and how it plays out? Are you critiquing a story element here? It feels like I'm missing or at least not getting part of your criticism.
The Mad Draklor
Member
I've finished reading Empress of Another World, which is actually a Korean manhua. It is definitely a fresh take on the "isekai" series. I thought the story was well written and ended satisfyingly.
JohnSpartan1982
Neo Member
Anyone else thinks Blade Runner 2049 borrowed ideas from Armitage III even the preggo cyborg thing?
Shouta
Member
I have a number of criticisms of Overlord. Some of them aren't a big deal like "Where is everything going with this?" because the series is playing the long game overall and they're intent on exploring the world as well. I mean, I'm a Kiseki/Trails fan, I'm used to being led on for decades at this point.
My core criticism boils down to the fact that the series does a lot more telling than showing. So much of what makes Overlord is entrenched in the medium it was created in, the novel. Technically the written word but you know what I mean. A lot of the world-building and lore for the series isn't expounded upon by the things that are going on but by the author during it. It's such a pivotal part of the author's style that it actually ends up affecting his story and plot. The anime makes this issue clear because it has to pare down the content to what is essential to understand and move the story forward.
This leads to my original complaint, the essential events in this series are just, standard. It's because the interesting stuff is in the exposition rather than what's happening. I mean, all of your talk about the events we've discussed haven't been about the characters actually interacting but the exposition that results from being in the situation. I have a problem with the ACTUAL events that go on. I've even stated it with what happens Jircniv and Ains but that totally seems to bounce off you for some reason.
It's cool that Jircniv sweats bullets in the exposition but that exchange itself is so bland and uninteresting.
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
petran79
Banned
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Sakura Doritos
Member
I really love Black Clover. The MC is over the top but he eventually takes a side seat while they fill in other characters. I’m hooked.
Between this, My Hero and Overlord I’m not missing the current filler in Baruto
Sakura Doritos
Member
I’m coming into Overlord cold as I don’t do manga or j-novels. So I expected something like a reverse Sword Art or Log Horizon.I have a number of criticisms of Overlord. Some of them aren't a big deal like "Where is everything going with this?" because the series is playing the long game overall and they're intent on exploring the world as well. I mean, I'm a Kiseki/Trails fan, I'm used to being led on for decades at this point.
My core criticism boils down to the fact that the series does a lot more telling than showing. So much of what makes Overlord is entrenched in the medium it was created in, the novel. Technically the written word but you know what I mean. A lot of the world-building and lore for the series isn't expounded upon by the things that are going on but by the author during it. It's such a pivotal part of the author's style that it actually ends up affecting his story and plot. The anime makes this issue clear because it has to pare down the content to what is essential to understand and move the story forward.
This leads to my original complaint, the essential events in this series are just, standard. It's because the interesting stuff is in the exposition rather than what's happening. I mean, all of your talk about the events we've discussed haven't been about the characters actually interacting but the exposition that results from being in the situation. I have a problem with the ACTUAL events that go on. I've even stated it with what happens Jircniv and Ains but that totally seems to bounce off you for some reason.
What I found was something in ways better. The first and second seasons really made me like Ains and start to like his murderous troops. In season 3 this show has taken me off the rails. I’ve loved almost every character in S3 yet I can’t stop appreciating the evil that is spilling out as well hoping it’s going to tie into something big.
So honestly I don’t get what you are saying. Maybe it’s because you came into it with completely different expectations.
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