Support NeoGAF

[Cranberrys]

Please rewatch the video, then go read actual Greek philosophers and Greek historians. That is by no means a fact. Women did not have free reign and they were treated *very* differently in Sparta vs Athens.

• The Aspasia was known as a "hataera", an ancient Greek courtesan or concubine, especially one of a special class of cultivated female companions. They were also a metic, a foreign resident of Athens, one who did not have citizen rights in their Greek city-state of residence.
  • Being what she was, she was free of the legal constraints that normally bound women to their homes in Ancient Athens. Therefore she was able to interact in social gatherings that were normally forbidden for most Athenian women.
• The vast majority of women were not frontline fighters, rarely would there ever be a women in a skirmish situation. Their roles were to raise children and tend to the household.
• The Greek World was not as "diverse" as is portrayed in the game. Indo-europeans brought in the language. The Greek people were and still are a mix of those indo-european migrations and older indigenous groups (that were still fair of skin). The Pelasgians were most likely the original indigenous group in the area. They didn't have darker skin tone like Dravidian people found in the southern and eastern ends of Africa.
  • Due to climatological sciences, we know that since the end of the ice age the Mediterraneans did not have high UV levels that would introduce evolutionary pressure to increase melanin levels within the Pelasgians. (A Eruopean Population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete, look it up via Scholar.Google).
• Spartans were ancient Eugensists who killed any who they thought were "weak". They made clear demarcations between themselves and the other greeks. They did not give them citizenship or equal rights.
• Ancient Greece had clear issues with race.
  • Xenophanes - "Our gods have flat noses and black skins, say the ethiopians. The Thracians say our gods have red hair and hazel eyes."
  • Aethiopia literally means "The Land of Burnt Faces"
  • Greece once had a huge Empire and ruled over multiple other groups. This lead to those groups speaking Greek - however that does not mean that they were anymore ethnically greek just as Japanese who speak English are British.
  • Hippocrates himself had believed that climate, geography, and location lead to the physical and mental characteristics of people:
    • "Concerning the listlessness and the cowardice of peoples, the seasons are especially the cause why asians are less martial than the europeans and more tame in their character, for making no dramatic shift either to the hot nor to the cold, their seasons are temperate." | "For there are no mental disturbances nor strong change of the body, from which it is more likely that the passion is roused and indulges the senseless and high-spirited rather than when it is in a steady state." | "For it is change of everything which wakes the disposition of men and does not allow it to rest." | " For these aforesaid reasons it seems to me that the asian race is weak and yet further so because of their customs. For much of asia is ruled by a king." | "And where men do not rule themselves nor are autonomous but are ruled by a despot, there is no reason for them to concern themselves over this. So when they do not practice the military disciplines, but they work to seem pacifistic."
  • Sparta had the Xenelasia - expelling foreigners who were deemed injurious to the city-state.
• Homosexuality and Pederasty *DID* exist, but it is greatly debated by the extent of which it occured.
  • Pederasty was the relationship between an Erastes (Adult Male) and an Eromenos (Younger Male), usually in their teens. However, this was believed to be more of a Mentor/Mentee relationship, not one that was inherently sexual. It also was only allowed for Citizens as any non-citizens could not engage in pederastic relationships. All surviving artwork involving pederasty does not show any sexual relationships between the Erastes and Eromenos.
  • Aristophanes wrote the famous Greek play: Lysistrata. This involves a ploy by Athenian women to stop having sex with their men so they would stop waging war with Sparta. If most greek men could gain sexual release through other means, this ploy would not have worked, but it did.
  • Greek Homosexuality by K.J. Dover explains better than I can in his book. He notes that there are 600 "homosexual" relations depicted out of nearly 80,000 known Greek vases. That is not great evidence to show a prevalent homosexual nature within Greek culture.
  • Xenophon: "Lycurgus adopted a system opposed to all of these alike. Given that someone, himself being all that a man ought to be, should in admiration off a boy's soul endeavor to discover in him a true friend without reproach, and to consort with him - this was a relationship which Lycurgus commended, and indeed regarded as the noblest type of bringing up." | "But if, as was evident, it was not an attachment to the soul, but a yearning merely towards the body, he stamped this thing as foul and horrible; And with this result, to the credit of Lycurgus be it said, that in lacedaemon the relationship of lover and beloved is like that of parent and child or brother and brother where carnal appetite is in abeyance."
  • Sparta also had very different words for Erastes and Eromenos.
    • Eispnelas, meaning inspirer.
    • Aites, meaning listener.
  • Grown men would not have had engaged in open homosexual relationships. One character: Alkibiades is shown as an unrelenting figure in the game's homosexual relationships. While history does show he was an active bisexual, it is suggested that he suffers from psychopathy. He was a self-serving and treacherous individual.
• Greek Men and Women (Promiscuity) is not at all as it is portrayed in the game.
  • There were laws that prevented men from seducing noble women who were under the protection of a kyrios. However, men were able to sleep with slaves and prostitutes despite being married - but noble women were not one of those. If caught, they would be executed by the Kyrios without trial.
  • Women were able to have sex with specific men as designated by the Kyrios in order to produce a stronger offspring, however they were *not* allowed to sleep with whomever they wanted.

The Greek world was consumed by gender and race. This is shown through the various accounts of ancient Greeks and the physical history we have of that ancient civilization.

You are probably right, the thing is the game is produced to appeal to a certain demographic in a modern society, it's not accurate history by any means, I was just saying that sexuality wasn't perceived the same way then. Plus, by today standards, the game couldn't really afford to even show the Spartan society as it really was. I remember when 300 was first published some people found it "fascist" or other non sense and when the movie was released the same thing happened. So yeah, you're right, the game is marketed to suit the core belief it's target audience or not to raise controversy, not be accurate.

In any case, I enjoy Odyssey and I'm having a blast playing it.

 

[Dr. Claus]

You are probably right, the thing is the game is produced to appeal to a certain demographic in a modern society, it's not accurate history by any means, I was just saying that sexuality wasn't perceived the same way then. Plus, by today standards, the game couldn't really afford to even show the Spartan society as it really was. I remember when 300 was first published some people found it "fascist" or other non sense and when the movie was released the same thing happened. So yeah, you're right, the game is marketed to suit the core belief it's target audience or not to raise controversy, not be accurate.

In any case, I enjoy Odyssey and I'm having a blast playing it.

I do enjoy quite a bit about Odyssey, but the story/history tidbits have just urked me more than the previous entries of the series. Especially after the absolutely *brilliant* Origins which married the myths, history, and fictional lore almost perfectly.

I would disagree with you on the idea that they can't show Spartan society as it really was. RDR2 has shown a pretty accurate depiction of its time period including scenes of rape, racism, sexism, and more.

I am glad you are enjoying the game, but I just feel it is a major step down (both narratively and world design-wise) than its predecessor. I was also super looking forward to it as well.

 

[Alexios]

Maybe they just didn't research shit enough. Even the architecture is off with pillars all over in random places like they were going for the "ancient ruins" look since the originals were being built.

They could have certainly portrayed a society as it was if they wanted and simply show a strong female character go against the era's norm, that would have had more impact even.

And yeah there are historical examples of women doing so back then too, but the norm still was an oppressing society. You can show truth without celebrating it.

I mean, slavery was seen as a good thing at the time, lol (it just wasn't restricted to certain colors or anything, everyone was equal to become a slave, lol).

 

[Koala Driving a Ferrari]

AC Odyssey is a really good game. Definitely pick it up.

 

[KrisB]

Loving the game. Just reached level 31 last night so still have plenty to go.

I picked up the season pass as well last week but will probably finish the main content first before dipping into the DLC stuff.

 

[Exentryk]

Beautiful views:

 

[Exentryk]

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

I hated Origin. Played about 6 hours then stopped. Waste of money for me.

I'm liking Odyssey. Played about 25 hours now.

 

[Exentryk]

 

[DS_Joost]

What if I simply don't like that since they had to make 2 main characthers they both end up being shallow and the story suffers from it. I'm I still a misogynist pig then?

No, you just are a dense fuck. They wrote the story for one character. Wether that character is male or female doesn't matter for shit. At all. I love the characters, you clearly don't. They would've been the same regardless.

 

[nowhat]

So I got this game off the PSN holiday sales, currently at level 15. I didn't get Origins, so can make no comparison there.

I can both see the criticism for the game and not. Yes, there's a vast open world to explore, which is great (although I'm not a fan of the naval combat, but perhaps it's just me). At the same time, the level caps are hard. Like JRPG hard. If a quest is at your level or below, go to town. One level above yours, it'll be a challenge. Two levels above yours, doable but hard. Three levels or more, you can forget about it.

Which brings me to what's bugging me about this game - I'd like to see where the main story is going. But I'm unable, as the next main mission is way above my level. So I'll have to do the side content, which are fetch quest galore. There may be some amusing motivation for the quests (thumbs up for the horny granny), but ultimately it's "go to location, pick X items or kill Y enemies". Which is not great. The same criticism could be said for Dragon Age Inquisition too, which I don't actively hate - but the difference is, here that grind is mandatory. In DA:I it was optional.

I'm going to give this game a chance and level up enough to progress the main story. For a while at least. But I can totally understand why XP boosters could be beneficial. And that's not good game design, in my oh-so-humble opinion.

 

[Exentryk]

I'm going to give this game a chance and level up enough to progress the main story. For a while at least. But I can totally understand why XP boosters could be beneficial. And that's not good game design, in my oh-so-humble opinion.

For EXP, here is a tip. Whenever you get to a new place, go to the statue and pick up all the quests it has. Then go about playing the game as you would. Usually you end up completing some objectives even when not trying to, and these gives a lot more exp than other quests.

 

[Mentaur]

I never bothered with the quests available from the statue, and just did all the more story-based sidequests. I found I was well over-levelled the entire game. This is what reviews advised too. The only time I ever found myself in an area I was under-powered for was when I stopped off whilst sailing to find my father for the first time. The area was clearly marked so I had myself to blame. I came back there about 50 hours later!

 

[AgentP]

How do you get lots of wood quickly? That seems to be my bottleneck for upgrades.

Also I ran into an issue last night. Every-time I looted something I got no message and I could not equip some items my levels (not DLC) and could not breakdown any equipment. Seems like I'm bugged.

 

[Humdinger]

Beautiful looking game with a huge world to explore, fun gameplay, and an interesting setting. Sadly that setting was altered and changed to push a particular agenda...

Yeah, I was disappointed by that. I had hoped to inhabit and be immersed in a sense that I was walking the streets of ancient Greece, which is one of my favorite civilizations of antiquity. But instead, I felt like I was in a version of that civilization that had been "cleaned up" according to modern progressive sensibilities -- a sanitized, "diversified" version of history. It didn't feel very authentic to me at all. It prevented me from being immersed in the world.

 

[Calibos]

massive eyerolling at the way this thread is going.

Not sure what’s worse?...actual SJW or the anti-SJW crowd calling everything out as “SJW agendas”

...let it go and just enjoy the actual “Video Game” because that’s what it is.

 

[Dr. Claus]

massive eyerolling at the way this thread is going.

Not sure what’s worse?...actual SJW or the anti-SJW crowd calling everything out as “SJW agendas”

...let it go and just enjoy the actual “Video Game” because that’s what it is.

Some of us have a hard time enjoying the "actual video game" due to these issues. A video game encompasses the story, characters, world, design, and core gameplay. Just because core gameplay is good does not suddenly make the other parts irrelevent.

 

[VertigoOA]

I feel burned out on this already. Too big of a game. It’s solid but still the usual Ubisoft slog that’s never actually ... fun

 

[Exentryk]

Love the Multi-Shot ability!

How do you get lots of wood quickly? That seems to be my bottleneck for upgrades.

Also I ran into an issue last night. Every-time I looted something I got no message and I could not equip some items my levels (not DLC) and could not breakdown any equipment. Seems like I'm bugged.

Defeating ships gets you a lot of wood fairly quickly.

 

[Exentryk]

With all these build options, I just had to make a spreadsheet, lol.

 

[Exentryk]

One shotting unique hunt beasts feels great!

 

[JohnnyFootball]

One shotting unique hunt beasts feels great!

oh jesus i hated that mutherfucker!!

 

[KrisB]

Finished the main game quest line and dipping into some of the DLC quests now. Level 52 and still loving this.

Can't believe how massive this map is. Still have a handful of islands left to explore.

 

[GTR R35_Supra RZ]

Can we agree, Best AC yet?

 

[Outrunner]

Beautiful looking game with a huge world to explore, fun gameplay, and an interesting setting. Sadly that setting was altered and changed to push a particular agenda, the world seemed empty and not worth exploring for much of it, and that story was horrendous.



Spoilers are in the video, but it perfectly explains my issues with the game.

See, my reaction to this is the same I have when people tell me Bayonetta is over sexualised and unrealistic. Yeah, it is, but it is just a video game.

Long gone are the days when video games were just a bunch of pixels that you could move in the screen, video games give now a way for developers and script writers to express themselves. So yeah, people who are highly invested in identity politics will transpire that to their work.

The same way I think it's OK for a developer to make a game about anime titties I think it's OK for developers to give history a twist to create the world they want, it's their creation so let them have it. If you don't like what they are selling you, don't buy it. I skipped both Origins and Odyssey same way I skipped Andromeda.

 

[Iceternal]

See, my reaction to this is the same I have when people tell me Bayonetta is over sexualised and unrealistic. Yeah, it is, but it is just a video game.

Long gone are the days when video games were just a bunch of pixels that you could move in the screen, video games give now a way for developers and script writers to express themselves. So yeah, people who are highly invested in identity politics will transpire that to their work.

The same way I think it's OK for a developer to make a game about anime titties I think it's OK for developers to give history a twist to create the world they want, it's their creation so let them have it. If you don't like what they are selling you, don't buy it. I skipped both Origins and Odyssey same way I skipped Andromeda.

But we can still give an opinion right ?

 

[Outrunner]

But we can still give an opinion right ?

Of course. I was addressing the video. I don't have an issue with opinions. I'm just tired of the constant politicisation of video game debates from both sides.

 

[Dr. Claus]

See, my reaction to this is the same I have when people tell me Bayonetta is over sexualised and unrealistic. Yeah, it is, but it is just a video game.

Long gone are the days when video games were just a bunch of pixels that you could move in the screen, video games give now a way for developers and script writers to express themselves. So yeah, people who are highly invested in identity politics will transpire that to their work.

The same way I think it's OK for a developer to make a game about anime titties I think it's OK for developers to give history a twist to create the world they want, it's their creation so let them have it. If you don't like what they are selling you, don't buy it. I skipped both Origins and Odyssey same way I skipped Andromeda.

Which I think is fine, as long as they make a note that this is not historically accurate. In multiple interviews, both Ubisoft and DICE had insinuated if not outright claimed that they were making their worlds true to history, which would include its populous, their actions, and more. That is my issue. I mean, I have zero problem with how Wolfenstein portrays WW2, because it is clear that it is alternate history and showcases that clearly. Not so much in the case of Odyssey/BFV.

 

[Humdinger]

Which I think is fine, as long as they make a note that this is not historically accurate. In multiple interviews, both Ubisoft and DICE had insinuated if not outright claimed that they were making their worlds true to history, which would include its populous, their actions, and more. That is my issue. I mean, I have zero problem with how Wolfenstein portrays WW2, because it is clear that it is alternate history and showcases that clearly. Not so much in the case of Odyssey/BFV.

It was a little disappointing that AC: Odyssey wasn't as historically accurate (and thus immersive) as I would have liked. However, looking back, I think my expectations were a little too high in that regard. I mean, yeah, the PR guys said it would be realistic, but they were PR guys. I knew about the multiple arrows hitting a field of enemies all at once; I knew about arrows going through walls -- goofy sh*t like that. Obviously they weren't going for realism. I should've known better.

However, it was still kind of a letdown. I was looking forward to feeling like I was immersed in ancient Greece, hanging out with Socrates. Instead, the world felt more modern than ancient, more gamey than immersive -- at least to me.

Glad that others are enjoying it, though. It was frequently named as a GOTY candidate, so it's no slouch.

 

[Dr. Claus]

It was a little disappointing that AC: Odyssey wasn't as historically accurate (and thus immersive) as I would have liked. However, looking back, I think my expectations were a little too high in that regard. I mean, yeah, the PR guys said it would be realistic, but they were PR guys. I knew about the multiple arrows hitting a field of enemies all at once; I knew about arrows going through walls -- goofy sh*t like that. Obviously they weren't going for realism. I should've known better.

However, it was still kind of a letdown. I was looking forward to feeling like I was immersed in ancient Greece, hanging out with Socrates. Instead, the world felt more modern than ancient, more gamey than immersive -- at least to me.

Glad that others are enjoying it, though. It was frequently named as a GOTY candidate, so it's no slouch.

There have always been gameplay issues with the realistic/historical setting since the first game - but they still treated the history with some respect and dignity, tried to marry the two as best they could. Even in Origins it was done very well, IMO. Here, it just felt like they didn't care and wanted to push their socio-political agenda over creating a living, understandable world that was somewhat true to its historical counter-part.

 

[AgentP]

I've made my guy a Hunter/Predator Shot/Headshot build. I'm very good at sniping and kiting, but when I get in close quarters I'm screwed. Does anyone recommend Devastating Shot over Predator?

 

[SirKicksalot]

I downloaded it and uninstalled it twice this week. I played Origins for 70 hours (including the expansions) and Odyssey for 20. I don't like Odyssey. The merc system, shit naval combat and badly designed world kill it for me.

 

[Shai-Tan]

It was a little disappointing that AC: Odyssey wasn't as historically accurate (and thus immersive) as I would have liked. However, looking back, I think my expectations were a little too high in that regard. I mean, yeah, the PR guys said it would be realistic, but they were PR guys. I knew about the multiple arrows hitting a field of enemies all at once; I knew about arrows going through walls -- goofy sh*t like that. Obviously they weren't going for realism. I should've known better.

However, it was still kind of a letdown. I was looking forward to feeling like I was immersed in ancient Greece, hanging out with Socrates. Instead, the world felt more modern than ancient, more gamey than immersive -- at least to me.

Glad that others are enjoying it, though. It was frequently named as a GOTY candidate, so it's no slouch.

To me the PR just looked like they were setting it in mythology in movies like the original Clash of the Titans than actual history. Maybe a little more grounded than Xena Warrior Princess with the historical characters but not by much. Look at how da Vinci was treated in a previous game. Not as silly as the tv show Da Vinci's Demon's but still close to zero engagement with authenticity.

 

[SirKicksalot]

Titan Quest's world is more authentic than Odyssey.

 

[Exentryk]

I've made my guy a Hunter/Predator Shot/Headshot build. I'm very good at sniping and kiting, but when I get in close quarters I'm screwed. Does anyone recommend Devastating Shot over Predator?

Devastating Shot is the main damage dealer against the big guys since you can charge it. Predator Shot is still good for forts where you want to snipe from far, so having both of them is not a bad idea.

In close quarters, you should be using Multi-Shot.

 

[Inspector Q]

I downloaded it and uninstalled it twice this week. I played Origins for 70 hours (including the expansions) and Odyssey for 20. I don't like Odyssey. The merc system, shit naval combat and badly designed world kill it for me.

I am almost at the point where I am going to uninstall it as well, unfortunately. I actually have never had a problem finishing an AC game up until this point, but for whatever reason this game is just boring me.

I am kind of scratching my head at just how janky the animations are in this game. I know people like to say that it's to make the combat more twitch based, but that still doesn't excuse how crappy the stealth kill and combat finisher animations look. Half of the stealth kills look dumb as hell with you pulling the broken spear through their body or flipping the enemy and stabbing them in the ass or some crap, lol. Then you add the shitty looking ragdolls that seemingly have no weight and it just gives the whole game an unpolished feel to it.

To be honest, even though I enjoyed both Syndicate and Origins, they also have these janky animations and weightless looking ragdolls. Not really sure why the series has regressed in these aspects, but here we are.

Probably going to give Odyssey another shot tonight or tomorrow and if it's not clicking I am just going to uninstall it.

 

[Humdinger]

To me the PR just looked like they were setting it in mythology in movies like the original Clash of the Titans than actual history. Maybe a little more grounded than Xena Warrior Princess with the historical characters but not by much. Look at how da Vinci was treated in a previous game. Not as silly as the tv show Da Vinci's Demon's but still close to zero engagement with authenticity.

True. I guess I let my expectations get out of whack. Not the first time that's happened. Won't be the last, lol.

 

[Exentryk]

Some random screenshots:

 

[crobb991]

so guys

just picked up the gold edition in a sale
£30 for the win lol

anyway

any pointers etc would help... going into this before origins as i havent done that one yet

 

[desertdroog]

One shotting unique hunt beasts feels great!

How? That farting hog is still giving me issues.

 

[Exentryk]

so guys

just picked up the gold edition in a sale
£30 for the win lol

anyway

any pointers etc would help... going into this before origins as i havent done that one yet

Whenever you get to any new area, go to the statue and pick up all the quests. Then go play the game as you normally would, and you'll complete some of these objectives even without trying. These give very nice experience, so it'll help in the long run.

Other than that, usually try to do the main missions first in the area, because if you go for question marks and then do main mission, you might get sent back to an area you've already cleared/etc.

How? That farting hog is still giving me issues.

Just a very powerful build. Can see the details in the vid below:

 

[AgentP]

How? That farting hog is still giving me issues.

I just killed in two shots. He followed a bear way out of his territory and I killed him without getting hit on his way back

 

[Dante83]

I picked up this game a week ago. While I like the environments and the naval battles, the game is a technical mess on my base ps4. There were times where the game just pauses, stutters and it becomes a slide show. I had to restart the game after that and it resolves. There are also times where the game just pauses to load in-between when I am just running forward to a new place. It breaks up the immersion. I don't recall origins having such issues. I feel that AC origins is the superior game overall.

 

[Exentryk]

Close call there...

 

[desertdroog]

Whenever you get to any new area, go to the statue and pick up all the quests. Then go play the game as you normally would, and you'll complete some of these objectives even without trying. These give very nice experience, so it'll help in the long run.

Other than that, usually try to do the main missions first in the area, because if you go for question marks and then do main mission, you might get sent back to an area you've already cleared/etc.


Just a very powerful build. Can see the details in the vid below:

Thanks!

 

[AgentP]

I picked up this game a week ago. While I like the environments and the naval battles, the game is a technical mess on my base ps4. There were times where the game just pauses, stutters and it becomes a slide show. I had to restart the game after that and it resolves. There are also times where the game just pauses to load in-between when I am just running forward to a new place. It breaks up the immersion. I don't recall origins having such issues. I feel that AC origins is the superior game overall.

It does this on the XBX too. Origins didn't do this.

 

[Exentryk]

Finished the game (with all three questlines - Family, Cult, Atlantis). My favourite questline was the Atlantis one. Thoughts on the game below:

Pros:

• Gorgeous Graphics
• Traversal (Running, Climbing, Boating... everything is just so smooth)
• Horse Controls (Best ever!)
• Combat:
  • Better implementation of perfect dodging (than Origins)
  • Skill based design
  • Good controls for using skills (shortcut buttons)
  • Good crowd control skills
  • Build variety
  • Stat details page
  • Masteries
• Better cutscene framing (than Origins)

Cons:

• Poor Story
• Poor Writing
• Weak Characters
• Quantity over Quality
  • World: The world is too large, and due to that they've ended up filling it with a lot of repetitive stuff. Most places look the same.
  • Quests: There are some decent quests, but most of them are very basic/poor and end up just being about clearing forts/bandit camps.

Overall, I enjoyed my time with it quite a bit and most of that credit goes to the gameplay side of things. If only they can improve the story and writing and focus on quality over quantity, they could have something really great.

I'm not sure if I'm gonna get the DLC - it will need to have lots of new combat skills and some very interesting storylines for me to bite. Will keep an eye on the upcoming stuff.

 

[AgentP]

How do you use special arrows? Also, I need to get to level spear, but don't have anyone to uncover. Can I just head to the area and stumble upon the cult members? Will the bird spot them?

 

[Exentryk]

How do you use special arrows? Also, I need to get to level spear, but don't have anyone to uncover. Can I just head to the area and stumble upon the cult members? Will the bird spot them?

Press left on the dpad to switch arrows. You need to have unlocked the "Paralysing Arrows" skill so you can first craft special arrows.

Regarding the cultist in the arena, you can choose to just fight him straight away. This guide can help with killing Cultists.

 

[Gun Animal]

i would expect devs to inject their moral views into their games, it's only natural. But I would have rather seen a realistic depiction of ancient greece framed in such a way as to say "this is wrong" than erasing it entirely. It would be like if Assassin's Creed III didn't show slavery or the subjugation of native americans, instead pretending that colonial america was a progressive utopia. This also happened with Battlefield V and COD WWII. It's a perplexing trend. I think maybe these types of people---adverse to labels as they are, i'll refrain from calling them "SJWs"---aren't interested in making their case anymore. As someone said, maybe the time for arguments has passed.