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[Stardust_Comet]

That's perfectly fair, but I'm having a hard time seeing how that is sexist because it makes some people uncomfortable? It just means that those people have a problem in one way or another with overt female sexuality being on display (which in and of itself may or may not be a product of a sexist society).

vvv- Well I mean, why not? Few people here have played the game and the other reviews mostly just agree that the game is fucking amazing. So, like, what else is there to discuss here?

People may be calling it sexist from the view point of how rare it is to get a main female lead for a big actiony rpg that is not sexualised.

Gaming companies do have a lot of concern with males being interested in a game if the main protagonist can only be female. There's no absolute evidence that men won't buy games starring female protags, but when originally the gaming industry was targetted at men, gaming companies have little reason to go against the logic of "men buy games that feature men in them". (Of course, this isn't to say it's necessarily true, but we don't have a lot of gaming companies willing to take that "risk")

A lot of times, if a game must have a female as the main character and it's set to be a game targetted to a male audience, the female will be overly sexualised. So from this point of view, people who see a main female protag being overtly sexualised for no in-story reason, they will see the game to be sexist.

 

[Kriken]

Nice to see the game get the scores it deserves

 

[enron hubbard]

Did Nintendo pay for the original Bayonetta to get similar reviews? Seems like quite the ploy.

YES! Ahaha

 

[Dice]

That's perfectly fair, but I'm having a hard time seeing how that is sexist because it makes some people uncomfortable? It just means that those people have a problem in one way or another with overt female sexuality being on display (which in and of itself may or may not be a product of a sexist society).

I personally feel like having "too much" is part of the point. It's not about good or poor taste because it isn't for the purposes assumed. It's not like Senran Kagura's attempt at perpetual titillation, but the expression comes off completely different. We're going past titillation, past discomfort, to normalization, even in the core game mechanics. How much will it take to make you accept it as a fact of her? She is relentless in establishing this, and the camerawork is an expression of that.

Apparently some other people do see an attempt at perpetual titillation, and naturally that comes off terribly unwarranted and awkward for them and out of place from what they conceive as the core intent of an action game with a powerful woman. And that is fine, but I would extend to them that perhaps if something is so terribly awkward and out of place, it isn't because its execution of concept is misguided and split from itself, but their interpretation of its concept and intent is misguided.

 

[Curufinwe]

The guy who spent years publicly referring to a woman as his "vaginal companion" sure is easily offended by the digital "sexism" of Bayonetta 2.

 

[Acid08]

Boy this escalated quickly, its now a full blown discussion on gender and sexuality.

Majority of game protagonists are a sexulaised power fantasy ideals, I find no difference in topless Kratos running around in a skirt to Bayo really. On the surface there is really no difference.

What I think takes people aback is the innate use of sexuality in the combat mechanics of Bayonetta, everything she does in combat is fetishized to a degree that is ludicrous at times.

I don't think its fair to label anyone who acknowledges this as 'narrow-minded' or 'ignorant'.

The difference is that those power fantasy characters are there for men almost all of the time. Kratos is a male power fantasy. That is the inherent problem with lots of game characters.

Bayonetta may or may not be an example of a female power fantasy, depends on your perspective. It isn't a perspective we see a lot of though because most, if not all, of the reviews are written by men and I would assume most, if not all, of the discussion in this thread is by men too. If any review outlet actually wanted to be more progressive then maybe having a review written from the female point of view would work much better than just having dudes say what is and isn't empowering for women. It really isn't a mans place to say.

 

[roknin]

Played the demo.

Saw the scores.

Was already sold before.

I don't know if I can do any better than day zero but I will find a fucking way

Lol wth is going on in this gif? XD

 

[Diprosalic]

Nailed it again



This one was easy, though

you posted ">91" but it sits at 91 so you were wrong.

 

[Feindflug]

it's a shame that a reportedly fantastic game will be experienced by so few

I would say that thanks to Nintendo now we can at least experience a reportedly fantastic game that it was never coming out.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

The guy who spent years publicly referring to a woman as his "vaginal companion" sure is easily offended by the digital "sexism" of Bayonetta 2.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

People may be calling it sexist from the view point of how rare it is to get a main female lead for a big actiony rpg that is not sexualised.

Gaming companies do have a lot of concern with males being interested in a game if the main protagonist can only be female. There's no absolute evidence that men won't buy games starring female protags, but when originally the gaming industry was targetted at men, gaming companies have little reason to go against the logic of "men buy games that feature men in them". (Of course, this isn't to say it's necessarily true, but we don't have a lot of gaming companies willing to take that "risk")

A lot of times, if a game must have a female as the main character and it's set to be a game targetted to a male audience, the female will be overly sexualised. So from this point of view, people who see a main female protag being overtly sexualised for no in-story reason, they will see the game to be sexist.

Oh for sure, this isn't even up for debate. There's nothing that makes me happier than seeing a normal fucking woman in a video game, which happens so rarely I just want to scream.

However, considering how many males refuse to buy Bayonetta because of the theme/character, either PG have no idea what they are doing, or that wasn't what they were going for. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's the latter.

 

[War Peaceman]

That Polygon review is a sad display of boneheaded puritanism. Way to completely miss the point of Bayonetta's character.

Bayonetta is all about power and poise and confidence. The way she exults in her sexuality and wields it as a weapon is entirely consistent with her persona. She's never ever reduced to a sexual ornament for male characters or the audience. She claims equal standing with, or flat out dominates, every man she meets. She's isn't the damsel in distress who waits for the studly hero to sweep her off her feet and save the day. She pulls her own weight and takes care of her friends. Bayonetta is the superhero everyone else relies on. Her sexuality is self-gratifying and intimidating, not inviting, and that's one of the core strengths of her character.

It's worth mentioning that Bayonetta's designer is a woman who took inspiration for Bayonetta's extended proportions from fashion illustrations, whose figures are tall and elegant to emphasize physical grace rather than sexuality. If Bayonetta was supposed to pander to a straight male audience, where are the balloon tits and other stereotypical features of the woman-shaped background props that countless games employ for no other reason than cheap sex appeal? Why the bizarre spider-like limbs and long neck, exaggerated qualities that enhance her acrobatic movements and statuesque poses while she fights? Her design complements her actions, which complement her personality, which complements both.

Bayonetta is a fully realized character, possibly the only self-actualized female protagonist in complete control of her sexuality that the entire medium has to offer. Shame on Arthur Gies for misrepresenting Platinum's great work and failing to celebrate such a progressive character. Shame on Polygon.

I don't give a damn about scores, but this is a great post. Deserves recognition.

 

[Shane]

Actually sexist is used in that review, although it doesn't make any sense to me.

Phone just crashed so re-writing this...

You're right. I stand corrected.

In that case, I'm left baffled as to why the score isn't much lower. Does that mean sexism is savable if the game plays well? Strange stance to take.

Going to have to revisit that review and have a further think.

 

[iJudged]

Holy shit!

 

[DALBEN]

Wow, i want this .

 

[air jordans for dogs]

Might have to get a Wii u this Christmas...

 

[Phat Michael]

The guy who spent years publicly referring to a woman as his "vaginal companion" sure is easily offended by the digital "sexism" of Bayonetta 2.

What?

 

[Strim]

wow, Last game was the freaking best game of the last decade, and no one noticed. Like it or not, Bayonetta is a Classic.
Its funny cause, as bayonetta being a Dominatrix, she is a cruel feminist by default

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Something should make a "you're goddamn right" gif with Hashimoto.

 

[cacildo]

My brother took the Wii U to Berlin with him. The guy ain't coming back till late December...

Fuck it I'm buying my own Wii U AND Bayo 2 on launch day. I ain't waiting that long to play this game. Loved the first one to death.

If you buy yourself a new one, you and your brother can talk in wiiu chat!

(Ive never had anybody to talk over wiiu chat.

Only one creepy kid kept calling me several times, never answered him. That was right when i first got the system. Had to block him after some time)

 

[RespectThySole]

Wow I'm shocked that this got a 10 from Gamespot. I can't remember the last time I've seen one of those from them. I might have to pick up a Wii U at some point. If a new Metroid is announced that would seal the deal as I'm also looking forward to Smash and Xenoblade.

 

[……forgetit]

Nintendo definitely pay for good reviews.

It is their last chance of this year to sell the system.

This is a joke right?

 

[Irminsul]

Bayonetta may or may not be an example of a female power fantasy, depends on your perspective. It isn't a perspective we see a lot of though because most, if not all, of the reviews are written by men and I would assume most, if not all, of the discussion in this thread is by men too. If any review outlet actually wanted to be more progressive then maybe having a review written from the female point of view would work much better than just having dudes say what is and isn't empowering for women. It really isn't a mans place to say.

Well, Leigh Alexander was already quoted in this thread, approving of Bayonetta.

Though I do wonder how a single woman could state what is or isn't empowering for all women. Obviously the opposite isn't true as well ("No one can say what is or isn't empowering because no one can speak for all!"), but who or what group determines if something is or isn't empowering?

Also, if what you said is true, is every woman talking about men's power fantasies in no position to do so?

 

[DICKS AHOY]

The guy who spent years publicly referring to a woman as his "vaginal companion" sure is easily offended by the digital "sexism" of Bayonetta 2.

Had to google what you meant but holy shit if that's true. What a hypocrite.

 

[Trojan X]

91 after 31 reviews, wow, that's excellent! Really happy to see that

Now Nintendo, buy Platinum Games and the Bayonetta Franchise!

Best to buy Bayonetta off SEGA if they can. Buying Platinum Games means no Metal Gear Rising and many other multi platform games that Platinum is working on. Ultimately, what we can really hope for is for Bayonetta 2 sales to explode and the name, Platinum Games, increase greatly in credibility and awareness. If that happens, then we can pray that tons of people will purchase both previous and new Platinum titles because Platinum Games are unfortunately not going to make much money from Bayonetta 2 due to royalty shares deal(3 way split between Nintendo, Sega and Platinum).

Sorry to deflate the bubble... but hey! Bayonetta 2 review wise is incredible!!! I TOLD YOU ALL!

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Great scores. I need this game now.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

Well, Leigh Alexander was already quoted in this thread, approving of Bayonetta.

Though I do wonder how a single woman could state what is or isn't empowering for all women. Obviously the opposite isn't true as well ("No one can say what is or isn't empowering because no one can speak for all!"), but who or what group determines if something is or isn't empowering?

Also, if what you said is true, is every woman talking about men's power fantasies in no position to do so?

I honestly don't think that part of the discussion is very important. These are all ideas, and while it might be relevant to understand where the ideas come from, they still stand on their own and shouldn't be dismissed based on who stated them.

(This goes for all serious discussion, in my book.)

 

[DrDrizzay101]

People may be calling it sexist from the view point of how rare it is to get a main female lead for a big actiony rpg that is not sexualised

Definitely true. Although it's quite rare to have anything less than a "very attractive" human protagonist of either gender. Not talking about non-human or stylized characters, but rather reasonably realistic designs. When was the last time you played a game like that with an ugly or even plain protagonist? (Not including character creation). Nathan Drake, Kratos, Joel from TLoU, both Dantes but especially new Dante, Booker DeWitt, etc. etc. Of course it's still more extreme on average for female representations.

Jimquisition had an episode a while back about that in fact.

 

[Trojan X]

Oh my...! Great timing Saur!! This guy is a demi-God on Bayonetta with that incredible black bible he made of the first game. Now him and others are working on something incredible for Bayonetta 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BNUfsCVIv8&list=UUIygi3xVEx3hGJXZo59eJQw



I'm so happy right now! I got that "golden age of gaming" feeling! A feeling that is incredibly rare for me experience these days...

 

[digoutyoursoul]

The guy who spent years publicly referring to a woman as his "vaginal companion" sure is easily offended by the digital "sexism" of Bayonetta 2.

How smooth

 

[Mr. Doop]

I can't wait for this to come out.

 

[Acid08]

Well, Leigh Alexander was already quoted in this thread, approving of Bayonetta.

Though I do wonder how a single woman could state what is or isn't empowering for all women. Obviously the opposite isn't true as well ("No one can say what is or isn't empowering because no one can speak for all!"), but who or what group determines if something is or isn't empowering?

Also, if what you said is true, is every woman talking about men's power fantasies in no position to do so?

I don't think I've ever seen a review/article written by a women telling men what they can/can't be empowered by. As we're seeing with these reviews and this discussion though, men feel very comfortable passing their judgement on what is and isn't empowering for women.

It's a problem with games writing in general, we very rarely get a perspective that isn't from a white male.

 

[TheGraykid]

Bayonetta as a character in simple terms is sex that punches people in the face. Things to consider:

1. Bayonetta doesn't really remedy one of the major problems that people have with female treatment in games, which is why do all of them have to be very heavily sexualised.

2. Bayonetta being created by a woman doesn't mean that the character cannot be in any way sexist.

3. Someone needs to explaim to me how this game is empowering especailly when it displays some of the worst examples of the male gaze in modern video games, I mean "Crotch shot, crotch shot, look at her tits rinse repeat." Is that empowering?! Really?! It just feels fan servicey. Making her beat people up inbetween those moments of fan service doesn't make it less disgusting for me. But I am open to change, make me understand.

 

[Totobeni]

Good scores.seems to be another one of the good games from Platinum Games.

Platinum Games good games: Bayonetta, Vanquish, Metal Gear Rising

Platinum Games bad games: MadWorld, Anarchy Reigns, Wonderful 101

so with this one PG will have more good games than bad ones. lets hope Korra don't make it a draw again.

 

[Bold One]

The difference is that those power fantasy characters are there for men almost all of the time. Kratos is a male power fantasy. That is the inherent problem with lots of game characters.

Bayonetta may or may not be an example of a female power fantasy, depends on your perspective. It isn't a perspective we see a lot of though because most, if not all, of the reviews are written by men and I would assume most, if not all, of the discussion in this thread is by men too. If any review outlet actually wanted to be more progressive then maybe having a review written from the female point of view would work much better than just having dudes say what is and isn't empowering for women. It really isn't a mans place to say.

My post was nothing to do with female empowerment, the idea that there aren't as many female lead roles in games is a different argument and discussion to the point I was making.

You don't need to be female to have a discussion about bayonetta nor do you have to be a feminist to have a 'progressive' perspective. Power fantasy is not gender specific, while Bayo might resonate more with female gamers doesn't mean male gamers can't have a blast with it and also feel powerful while playing with the character.

It is no one's place to say what is and is not empowering to anyone subset or class of people.

 

[T.O.P]

Oh my...! Great timing Saur!! This guy is a demi-God on Bayonetta with that incredible black bible he made of the first game. Now him and others are working on something incredible for Bayonetta 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BNUfsCVIv8&list=UUIygi3xVEx3hGJXZo59eJQw

disgonnabegud

 

[Ban Puncher]

Nintendo definitely pay for good reviews.

It is their last chance of this year to sell the system.

 

[Kiru]

Good scores.seems to be another one of the good games from Platinum Games.

Platinum Games good games: Bayonetta, Vanquish, Metal Gear Rising

Platinum Games bad games: MadWorld, Anarchy Reigns, Wonderful 101

so with this one PG will have more good games than bad ones. lets hope Korra don't make it a draw again.

Wait what ?!

 

[Hot Coldman]

I figure I should have to read a review to comment on it, and seeing as I really can't stand Polygon's reviews in general, I don't see this bucking the trend of me not reading their reviews. But sure, if someone wants to comment on Bayonetta's and the game's approach to sexual themes, why not. It's all open to interpretation. No-one takes to everything.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Good scores.seems to be another one of the good games from Platinum Games.

Platinum Games good games: Bayonetta, Vanquish, Metal Gear Rising

Platinum Games bad games: MadWorld, Anarchy Reigns, Wonderful 101

so with this one PG will have more good games than bad ones. lets hope Korra don't make it a draw again.

No no no no no no NO

 

[ryushe]

Wow...

I knew it'd be great and all, but... Wow..

 

[BY2K]

The guy who spent years publicly referring to a woman as his "vaginal companion" sure is easily offended by the digital "sexism" of Bayonetta 2.

Had to look for that.

What an hypocrite.

 

[scitek]

It's someone's fucking opinion. Personal emotion reaction to an inherently subjective thing. He liked the game. Grow up.

Your PETA Oprah comment is amazingly ignorant as well.

The problem is the person doing it seemingly enjoys being a professional troll, so it's hard to take anything he writes seriously tbh.

 

[Stardust_Comet]

Oh for sure, this isn't even up for debate. There's nothing that makes me happier than seeing a normal fucking woman in a video game, which happens so rarely I just want to scream.

However, considering how many males refuse to buy Bayonetta because of the theme/character, either PG have no idea what they are doing, or that wasn't what they were going for. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's the latter.

That is a big problem, not knowing what PG had in mind with how sexualised Bayonetta is. She's clearly both played as being sexually empowered and objectified for the "male gaze". However, is part of meant to be a sort of satire or parody? Are the multiple crotch shots actually serving a point to make you feel uncomfortable to reflect how Bayonetta is very abrasive as a character? Or is PG just pandering to the male gaze?

Too bad we'll really never know what PG's intentions of having so many crotch shots as it were. Personally, I prefer to just ignore the scenes and consider it more as "Bayonetta is abrasive and crude as a person, so the game itself is reflecting that" because I do enjoy the game and I do enjoy how much Bayonetta does not give a fuck and just continues doing her thing her way.

It really is disappointing to hear a lot of males didn't buy the game because of those reasons. But I can understand if they were turned off by viewing the game as too sexualised to the point of discomfort, or if the idea of taking down angels and god is unappealing because of religious reasons.

 

[Smellycat]

Those are some amazing reviews!!

 

[Axass]

Wake me up when we'll return to judge games for their gameplay first and foremost.

Also, my girlfriend loved the demo and has no problem with Bayonetta. Yeah, I know it's anecdotical evidence. So is the Polygon review.

Polygon seems like they want to be a premiere outlet for criticism, by sacrificing a game's score to make a point about a larger issue. If Bayonetta 2 was released in a hypothetically perfect world, they'd likely give it a 9 or 10. But since representation is still an issue, and they feel this game is an offender - it must be the sacrificial lamb for greater progress.

It's a theory that may be appealing to some types, but doesn't do much in the way of consumer advocacy.

Yes.

 

[Boss Doggie]

That is a big problem, not knowing what PG had in mind with how sexualised Bayonetta is. She's clearly both played as being sexually empowered and objectified for the "male gaze". However, is part of meant to be a sort of satire or parody? Are the multiple crotch shots actually serving a point to make you feel uncomfortable to reflect how Bayonetta is very abrasive as a character? Or is PG just pandering to the male gaze?

Too bad we'll really never know what PG's intentions of having so many crotch shots as it were. Personally, I prefer to just ignore the scenes and consider it more as "Bayonetta is abrasive and crude as a person, so the game itself is reflecting that" because I do enjoy the game and I do enjoy how much Bayonetta does not give a fuck and just continues doing her thing her way.

It really is disappointing to hear a lot of males didn't buy the game because of those reasons. But I can understand if they were turned off by viewing the game as too sexualised to the point of discomfort, or if the idea of taking down angels and god is unappealing because of religious reasons.

That's the best way to see her, since it is part of her character.

 

[NumberThree]

Bayonetta as a character in simple terms is sex that punches people in the face. Things to consider:

1. Bayonetta doesn't really remedy one of the major problems that people have with female treatment in games, which is why do all of them have to be very heavily sexualised.

2. Bayonetta being created by a woman doesn't mean that the character cannot be in any way sexist.

3. Someone needs to explaim to me how this game is empowering especailly when it displays some of the worst examples of the male gaze in modern video games, I mean "Crotch shot, crotch shot, look at her tits rinse repeat." Is that empowering?! Really?! It just feels fan servicey. Making her beat people up inbetween those moments of fan service doesn't make it less disgusting for me. But I am open to change, make me understand.

Here are a couple of articles that should be an interesting read:
http://web.archive.org/web/20110607.../213466/bayonetta-empowering-or-exploitative/
http://obligatoryspiderqueen.wordpr...-t-c-h-bayonetta-in-total-control-of-herself/

You don't have to agree with what they're saying but at least you should have an idea what the other viewpoint is. I especially like the latter:

Because under the fluff and noise, this is a game about murdering the patriarchy with its own tools of oppression.

Take the high heeled shoes that you’re expected to suffer for the visual enjoyment of men and make them implements of murder. Take the long hair associated with gentle passive womanhood and strangle the crap out of them. Do it with your BFF, who you appeared to be forced into competition with by the patriarchy but who was always truly on your side. When your clothing comes off to reveal your naked body, you’re the opposite of vulnerable, tearing massive enemies limb from limb.

This is a game where you play as a witch fighting angels and you kill the father who wants to use and supress you with a lipstick bullet. This is a game where the heroine flat out states “I don’t like babies but I enjoy making them.” It’s a game that appears to be about nurturing a child but is actually about defending yourself.

I want to be this witch. I want to run up the sides of walls in the moonlight and shoot angels with my awesome heels and look totally amazing while I’m doing it. I want every pose I strike to be ready for an issue of Vogue. I want to stand back to back with my sister and smash the corpse of god into pieces after I throw it into one of the most potent symbols for masculine gods: THE MOTHERFUCKING SUN.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Oh Polygon.

Sexualized characters in games are not problematic or offensive. The degree to which they are utilized in games is eye-roll-inducing, certainly - especially with regards to games that attempt to present darker, more mature material with a straight face - but targeting friggin' Bayonetta of all games as being so 'offensive' that it impacts one's entertainment is baffling.

If you think players' minds and attitudes about women are negatively warped by a game as ludicrously over-the-top as Bayonetta, then surely you would also believe that players' minds and attitudes about violence are negatively warped by all the blood and gore in games. The latter assertion, however, has long been staunchly disregarded by anyone who is actually capable of discerning the events in games for their inherent virtual nature. I don't understand why the same cannot be done for the former.

This idea that these kinds of games can have such an effect on one's world-view on women is so utterly preposterous, yet it's a notion that sites like Polygon bandy about relentlessly. If I had to take a guess, I would assume the kind of people who constantly games like this for their supposed negative messages place far, far, far too much faith in the ability for games (or films, or books) to change one's overall outlook in life. For all their talk about how this affects gender relations in the real world, I question just how much time they have spent inhabiting said real world. The fact they think Bayonetta wrapping her legs around a monster's head and flinging him off a fighter jet flying through downtown New York is harmful to the player's attitude towards women in their personal life makes me suspect the answer to the previous question is not very much.

People place far too much stock in the supposed dangers of sexualization in games. The presence of sexualization is not inherently bad. The prevelance of - and reliance on - sexualization in games is stupid, cringey, embarassing. Offensive? No, and certainly not in a game like Bayonetta, where the sexualized main character is sufficiently daft and devoid of subtly as the rest of the game.

Look, writers like Gies and Walker and Kuchera and all the rest can shout at me until they are blue in the face about women in games and women in reality. Thing is, there isn't a damn thing they could teach me that my mother didn't teach considerably better many years ago.