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[Negotiator101]

Office workers don't owe you their custom. If they're no longer coming into the office five days a week, the impact on your business is not theirs to worry about. If your business is no longer viable because conditions change, you have my sympathy, but that's exactly how a free market economy functions. History is littered with millions of thriving businesses that folded when there was no longer a demand for what they offered. That's the reality and my circumstances don't change that at all.

I respect your stance on the matter, and appreciate that things are different for everyone.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Employees can do what they want. If they want to hold out WFH if bosses say it's back to the office go ahead and dont show up.

Why any worker wants to gives bosses ammo to fire them is insane. Put down the ego and just go back to the office like before covid. Somehow they figure out how to wake up in the morning and drive to work in 2019. I'm sure you can figure out how to do it again in 2024.

It's like a company with a business casual dress code. If you come in wearing sandals and get warning to wear closed toe shoes, why keep trying over and over again? Dont complain if one day you get booted. Thats life. Theres rules and you already got numerous chances. Be a rebel, and collect unemployment insurance I guess. lol

One things for sure. even if the company doesnt gas you for not showing up, good luck with performance evaluations. When the VPs and directors calibrate evaluations in a board room, have fun when your name pops up and everyone says you never show your face.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Anecdotally, most every job I've ever worked at least, the people bond over their shared hatred of their employer rather than any shared sense of purpose.

Absolutely.

 

[BbMajor7th]

Theres rules and you already got numerous chances. Be a rebel, and collect unemployment insurance I guess. lol

Almost every workplace perk we enjoy in the modern age was won, for all of us, by 'rebels'. People who challenged the status quo, stood together, risked dismissal and eventually won things we all now take for granted. Businesses will always - ALWAYS - be looking for ways to maximize their own gains and that's absolutely fine, so long as workers are all doing exactly the same for themselves. It's a simple tug of war, and if people on one side start giving up, every one of them will end up face down in the mud.

 

[kevm3]

I wonder if the C-suite executives or Zelnick are also following the RTO mandate as well?

Gotta practice what you preach, and culture flows down from the top. Again, if people have settled into a routine of WFH then expecting them to go back after 4 years would in some cases mean you’re gonna lose people, and otherwise cause friction and disrupt people’s lives. Which is a real factor. Especially if some of your best talent does just fine WFH and they’re gonna be the people you lose if you force a square peg into a round hole. The unintended consequences of the RTO mandate may not be worth it. But I think some companies are going to find that out the hard way.

They probably have houses/townhomes right next to the workplace, so for them, RTO would simply be waking up and driving 2 minutes down the road.

 

[rm082e]

Not returning to work wherever that may be actually has a devastating effect on neighbouring businesses most notably cafes and restaurants, fast food and shops. The workers aren't there to shop, go for lunch etc. So to everyone saying working from home is great hasn't really thought how it affects the economy.

No, we have, and we accept that there will be some negative impacts like this. But it's well worth the trade-offs for all the benefits we get:

• I save money on gas and wear & tear on my car. I also got to drop my insurance to a lower tier because I barely drive anymore. That savings helps offset the increased cost of electricity I'm using at home.
• I don't spend money on office clothes that I don't like wearing. I have one pair of slacks and two shirts just in case I have an in-person meeting.
• I save money by not being tempted to eat out as often. I've always been a meal prepper, but I still strayed off my diet plan more often at the office.
• I can better manage my sleep, which is a huge benefit as I'm getting older. If I've completed all my tasks and don't have anything left for the day, I can go take a nap.
• I'm not wasting five hours a week sitting in a car where I have an increased risk of injury or death. I now use those hours to exercise, which is a benefit to my health.
• I think people significantly over-rotate on mental health, but for sure I'm happier and more comfortable being in my home office.
• I can use little bits of downtime (15 minutes between meetings) to accomplish a small task around the house (laundry, dishes, etc.). At the office, it can be hard to meaningfully use that 15 minutes. By weaving these things in through the day, it frees up more time in the evenings.
• My company got out of all their office space, so they are no longer paying for the expense. They're no longer wasting tons of energy on an office that only got used 35% of the time. I would occasionally stop by on a weekend to pickup something and we had a whole floor with AC/heat for no one. It was stupid.

With all of those benefits to me as the remote worker, I can't see how giving those things up so I can go spend more money on an overpriced sandwich at a deli is my responsibility. I also feel sympathy for the commercial real estate market, but that's counter-balanced by the sticker shock of residential real estate. If we wind up tearing down office buildings that are sitting half empty to build new houses that will balance out the market, that's just economic natural selection.

I get that remote work is not for everyone. Some people want to go into an office. And I get that some businesses don't do well with remote work because they need people in person to get the work done. I don't think there's one right answer for everyone. But the idea that shifting to remote work is a mistake, or a bad decision for the companies/employees who can do it successfully seems more like an ideological stance than a logical conclusion.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

They probably have houses/townhomes right next to the workplace, so for them, RTO would simply be waking up and driving 2 minutes down the road.

Add to that, they certainly wouldn't be there 8 hours a day.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

No, we have, and we accept that there will be some negative impacts like this. But it's well worth the trade-offs for all the benefits we get:

• I save money on gas and wear & tear on my car. I also got to drop my insurance to a lower tier because I barely drive anymore. That savings helps offset the increased cost of electricity I'm using at home.
• I don't spend money on office clothes that I don't like wearing. I have one pair of slacks and two shirts just in case I have an in-person meeting.
• I save money by not being tempted to eat out as often. I've always been a meal prepper, but I still strayed off my diet plan more often at the office.
• I can better manage my sleep, which is a huge benefit as I'm getting older. If I've completed all my tasks and don't have anything left for the day, I can go take a nap.
• I'm not wasting five hours a week sitting in a car where I have an increased risk of injury or death. I now use those hours to exercise, which is a benefit to my health.
• I think people significantly over-rotate on mental health, but for sure I'm happier and more comfortable being in my home office.
• I can use little bits of downtime (15 minutes between meetings) to accomplish a small task around the house (laundry, dishes, etc.). At the office, it can be hard to meaningfully use that 15 minutes. By weaving these things in through the day, it frees up more time in the evenings.
• My company got out of all their office space, so they are no longer paying for the expense. They're no longer wasting tons of energy on an office that only got used 35% of the time. I would occasionally stop by on a weekend to pickup something and we had a whole floor with AC/heat for no one. It was stupid.

With all of those benefits to me as the remote worker, I can't see how giving those things up so I can go spend more money on an overpriced sandwich at a deli is my responsibility. I also feel sympathy for the commercial real estate market, but that's counter-balanced sticker shock of residential real estate. If we wind up tearing down office buildings that are sitting half empty to build new houses that will balance out the market, that's just economic natural selection.

I get that remote work is not for everyone. Some people want to go into an office. And I get that some businesses don't do well with remote work because they need people in person to get the work done. I don't think there's one right answer for everyone. But the idea that shifting to remote work is a mistake, or a bad decision for the companies/employees who can do it successfully seems more like an ideological stance than a logical conclusion.

Part of compensation is covering costs. Thats why as a start, someone doing a job in New York or Toronto will get paid more than someone doing a similar job in Boise or Regina. So if someone now WFH is saving tons of money, then technically the company should decrease pay and benefits since workers are banking money. who says someone has to buy fast food at lunch. If someone can make a cheap sandwich and salad WFH, just do the same thing in the morning and brown bag it.

As for mental health, it seemed everyone could do their office job fine before covid already. Covid red alerts passed years ago.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Part of compensation is covering costs. So if someone now WFH is saving tons of money, then technically the company should decrease pay and benefits since workers are banking money. who says someone has to buy fast food at lunch. If someone can make a cheap sandwich and salad WFH, just do the same thing in the morning and brown bag it.

As for mental health, it seemed everyone could do their office job fine before covid already. Covid red alerts passed years ago.

That's... not how wages work. They don't go down. Not unless you want your entire staff to quite en masse. Being more resourceful than someone else and being able to do your entire job effectively while at home, and in the process saving yourself from all those costs associated with commuting, that's simply a benefit to the individual.

 

[Phobos Base]

Part of compensation is covering costs. Thats why as a start, someone doing a job in New York or Toronto will get paid more than someone doing a similar job in Boise or Regina. So if someone now WFH is saving tons of money, then technically the company should decrease pay and benefits since workers are banking money. who says someone has to buy fast food at lunch. If someone can make a cheap sandwich and salad WFH, just do the same thing in the morning and brown bag it.

As for mental health, it seemed everyone could do their office job fine before covid already. Covid red alerts passed years ago.

The pay differences are for the general cost of living, not commuting. Just like how an employer won't pay for your train ticket to travel into the office

 

[StreetsofBeige]

That's... not how wages work. They don't go down. Not unless you want your entire staff to quite en masse. Being more resourceful than someone else and being able to do your entire job effectively while at home, and in the process saving yourself from all those costs associated with commuting, that's simply a benefit to the individual.

I get that, but that's what technically should happen.

Instead, the best option for companies to counter that is offer lower wages for new employees who WFH people or just fire ones who arent showing up.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Don't ask, tell them they must or find a new job.

 

[rm082e]

Part of compensation is covering costs. So if someone now WFH is saving tons of money, then technically the company should decrease pay and benefits since workers are banking money. who says someone has to buy fast food at lunch. If someone can make a cheap sandwich and salad WFH, just do the same thing in the morning and brown bag it.

As I mentioned, I did that. I've been doing meal prep for nearly 20 years. Whether I bring my lunch or eat out is none of the companies' business. They didn't pay for my lunch when I was in the office, so there's no reason they should decrease my pay with remote work.

I'm not saving "tons of money" by working at home. I'm saving a little bit of money, but a lot of time and convenience. The company is saving money by not having to pay for an office, utilities, supplies, cleaning, etc.

As for mental health, it seemed everyone could do their office job fine before covid already. Covid red alerts passed years ago.

Covid may have been a catalyst, but it's not the ongoing driver. The driver today is workers not seeing any benefit to going back to the office. If a business sees a reason, they should explain it clearly to their workforce. If they can't justify it and it's just "because we said so", that's their prerogative. But as someone previously mentioned, that means the top workers will look for a new job where they can remain remote and the business will get the people who either prefer an office (seems like a small percentage), or the people who haven't found a better option...yet.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

As I mentioned, I did that. I've been doing meal prep for nearly 20 years. Whether I bring my lunch or eat out is none of the companies' business. They didn't pay for my lunch when I was in the office, so there's no reason they should decrease my pay with remote work.

I'm not saving "tons of money" by working at home. I'm saving a little bit of money, but a lot of time and convenience. The company is saving money by not having to pay for an office, utilities, supplies, cleaning, etc.



Covid may have been a catalyst, but it's not the ongoing driver. The driver today is workers not seeing any benefit to going back to the office. If a business sees a reason, they should explain it clearly to their workforce. If they can't justify it and it's just "because we said so", that's their prerogative. But as someone previously mentioned, that means the top workers will look for a new job where they can remain remote and the business will get the people who either prefer an office (seems like a small percentage), or the people who haven't found a better option...yet.

That assumes the top workers all gun for other companies. From what I've seen, people over the past bunch of years arent changing jobs because the other company has more lax WFH perks. They are changing simply because it's a promotion which surely pays more money.

Probably all of the higher performers I know and bosses all want more back to office life.

Over the years after covid shitshow made tons of us office staff WFH for a couple years (some cities and companies more strict than others), the trend lately is back to office bit by bit. If WFH was such a company money savers and mental/productivity booster (in this case specifically talking video games as an example), every company with office staff would mandate WFH for everyone as a profit boosting and employee motivator. But that hasnt happened.

 

[Negotiator101]

That's... not how wages work. They don't go down. Not unless you want your entire staff to quite en masse. Being more resourceful than someone else and being able to do your entire job effectively while at home, and in the process saving yourself from all those costs associated with commuting, that's simply a benefit to the individual.

What's this thread about? Why do you think that is? Work isn't being done as effectively from home, and that's why more and more businesses are moving their workforce back to their premises.

I presume you work from home? If your employer mandates that you return to the workplace or you'll be laid off what are you going to do?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

What's this thread about? Why do you think that is? Work isn't being done as effectively from home, and that's why more and more businesses are moving their workforce back to their premises.

I presume you work from home? If your employer mandates that you return to the workplace or you'll be laid off what are you going to do?

It probably comes down to shittier productivity at home, plus the incident where one dude WFH had his kid snooping around leaking info to Reddit.

When stakes are this big, I'd put the clamp down too. If someone cant even control or trust family roaming around the house, forget it.

Now someone will say.... "Well, why grill everyone when it was just one person's incident. Just grill that guy". Thats not how life works. Why does everyone in the company have to do those mandatory god awful HR code of conduct and anti-bribery courses every year? I'm no thief, and probably 99% of the other people arent either. But what happened was at some point in company history some shady shit went on and the company got grilled. So to cover their asses and act as corproate babysitter, now everyone has to trudge through these things where I got to do one per month across various dumb topics..... even needing to read dumb shit like make sure you create a complex password and dont bribe suppliers with cash or front row sports tickets.

Sometimes companies have to go through stupid lengths to protect themselves just in case a few dumbasses spoil it for everyone.

if any of you at work dont have to do these mandatory HR courses, be thankful. Here's the kind of mindbenders you'd get in these things:

There is a bid process for a special project. Youre on the approval committee. Youre uncle makes a bid as he works at one of the suppliers and you didnt tell anyone at work. Is this a possible code of conduct violation? Y/N

You're friend Bob works at different company. He's trying to increase sales and asks if you can send him your contact list and pricing to help him out. Should you help Bob out? Y/N

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

What's this thread about? Why do you think that is? Work isn't being done as effectively from home, and that's why more and more businesses are moving their workforce back to their premises.

I presume you work from home? If your employer mandates that you return to the workplace or you'll be laid off what are you going to do?

I don't work from home, but between 2021-2023 I worked as a contractor for a large Fortune 500 company and 75%+ of us worked from home, particularly the internal employees, but I was allowed to work from home as well because I had/ have a great boss. The business operated/operates exactly the same, no issues. Everyone has long since adjusted to what fits their lifestyles, and there is no need/ desire at all to simply turn back the clock to 2019.

You're making a blanket generalization that "it's not working", which is not accurate across the board. It entirely depends on the situation and what industry you are talking about. Which is why your blanket statement really just fundamentally doesn't make sense. People who have been WFH since COVID, in an office-based environment where literally the entire job is Teams meetings and computer work, you can absolutely do the same job just as effectively from home. And just go into the office as needed for certain meetings, or an office party or gathering, etc for some kind of in-person event. Add to that, people's lived have changed in the last 4 years. People got pets during COVID, they had kids, they got rid of vehicles, etc. So simply stating "it's not working", you're applying a blanket generalization to an extremely complicated and nuanced issue, across hundreds of different industries. And that simply isn't true across the board. Might be true in your specific experience or situation, but it is not so across the board.

 

[lefty1117]

I wonder what Rockstar's real estate situation is. Are they in a long lease? Do they own their office buildings?

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

I get that, but that's what technically should happen.

Instead, the best option for companies to counter that is offer lower wages for new employees who WFH people or just fire ones who arent showing up.

Wages will never go down. Not unless you want your HR functions to not be able to recruit anyone ever again.

 

[rm082e]

It probably comes down to shittier productivity at home, plus the incident where one dude WFH had his kid snooping around leaking info to Reddit.

When stakes are this big, I'd put the clamp down too. If someone cant even control or trust family roaming around the house, forget it.

Any serious business should have a zero trust policy to begin with. Workstations/laptops should automatically lock after 5 minutes of inactivity and require a password to unlock. There should be a clear policy around how mobile devices are used for work (like Teams and Outlook blocking screenshots). The IT Team should be regularly doing table-top exercises to try and find where a threat could get in and put a guard in place to prevent it.

Now someone will say.... "Well, why grill everyone when it was just one person's incident. Just grill that guy". Thats not how life works. Why does everyone in the company have to do those mandatory god awful HR code of conduct and anti-bribery courses every year? I'm no thief, and probably 99% of the other people arent either. But what happened was at some point in company history some shady shit went on and the company got grilled. So to cover their asses and act as corproate babysitter, now everyone has to trudge through these things where I got to do one per month across various dumb topics..... even needing to read dumb shit like make sure you create a complex password and dont bribe suppliers with cash or front row sports tickets.

As a member of an IT Security team, everyone has to do the security training because consistently 5-15% of employees fall for scam emails. And it's a rotating list of people not the same folks every time. I've seen this happen to every level of team member from C-Suite to the receptionist. I've also seen people in the modern day using stupid simple passwords. Part of the IT team's job is to protect the business from potential threats. When the employees are a target, then the IT Team has to engage with the employees and do what they can to shore up defenses.

I saw no change in risk when we went fully remote. It's the same issues at the same rates.

I get that a game developer is a situation where remote work could be more of a concern. If you have an artist doing sketches on paper and they are left out on a desk, that could be a problem. But that's a very industry specific issue.

 

[Negotiator101]

I don't work from home, but between 2021-2023 I worked as a contractor for a large Fortune 500 company and 75%+ of us worked from home, particularly the internal employees, but I was allowed to work from home as well because I had/ have a great boss. The business operated/operates exactly the same, no issues. Everyone has long since adjusted to what fits their lifestyles, and there is no need/ desire at all to simply turn back the clock to 2019.

You're making a blanket generalization that "it's not working", which is not accurate across the board. It entirely depends on the situation and what industry you are talking about. Which is why your blanket statement really just fundamentally doesn't make sense. People who have been WFH since COVID, in an office-based environment where literally the entire job is Teams meetings and computer work, you can absolutely do the same job just as effectively from home. And just go into the office as needed for certain meetings, or an office party or gathering, etc for some kind of in-person event. Add to that, people's lived have changed in the last 4 years. People got pets during COVID, they had kids, they got rid of vehicles, etc. So simply stating "it's not working", you're applying a blanket generalization to an extremely complicated and nuanced issue, across hundreds of different industries. And that simply isn't true across the board. Might be true in your specific experience or situation, but it is not so across the board.

If you're saying it's not the same for everyone well of course how could it? In Rockstar case it is and for many others certainly where I live life has gone back to how it was.

I don't know how you could even determine if working from home is just as productive, what data backs that up? WFH was forced on us by covid 19 and deemed at the time necessary but that necessity is no more, like it or not WFH will be fazed out almost entirely and that's better for the economy as a whole.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

If you're saying it's not the same for everyone well of course how could it? In Rockstar case it is and for many others certainly where I live life has gone back to how it was.

I don't know how you could even determine if working from home is just as productive, what data backs that up? WFH was forced on us by covid 19 and deemed at the time necessary but that necessity is no more, like it or not WFH will be fazed out almost entirely and that's better for the economy as a whole.

Many people worked from home prior to COVID, across many different industries. COVID simply sped up that transition. It will never go back to what is was prior to 2020. Commercial real estate is sinking.

 

[BbMajor7th]

I presume you work from home? If your employer mandates that you return to the workplace or you'll be laid off what are you going to do?

In my case, they'd have a class action suit for constructive dismissal because the company assured people they could work remotely indefinitely and many people bought homes and took out mortgages outside of daily commuter distance on that understanding. If the company suddenly changed its mind, many people would be placed in a position that would be financially untenable forcing them to resign. It's all down to how the company words it, but our company has been so unambiguous and rolled out the policy to such a global extent that backtracking now would be nigh-on impossible.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

In my case, they'd have a class action suit for constructive dismissal because the company assured people they could work remotely indefinitely and many people bought homes and took out mortgages outside of daily commuter distance on that understanding. If the company suddenly changed its mind, many people would be placed in a position that would be financially untenable forcing them to resign. It's all down to how the company words it, but our company has been so unambiguous and rolled out the policy to such a global extent that backtracking now would be nigh-on impossible.

All solid points.

 

[mckmas8808]

In my case, they'd have a class action suit for constructive dismissal because the company assured people they could work remotely indefinitely and many people bought homes and took out mortgages outside of daily commuter distance on that understanding. If the company suddenly changed its mind, many people would be placed in a position that would be financially untenable forcing them to resign. It's all down to how the company words it, but our company has been so unambiguous and rolled out the policy to such a global extent that backtracking now would be nigh-on impossible.

Great point!

 

[EverydayBeast]

There's people that work in offices their whole lives, people don't understand how offices have security guards, people fixing them, cleaning them, happy to deliver supplies to offices. The way offices are designed are to give people opportunities to meet and share which can be tough when every individual worker is at home.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

There's people that work in offices their whole lives, people don't understand how offices have security guards, people fixing them, cleaning them, happy to deliver supplies to offices. The way offices are designed are to give people opportunities to meet and share which can be tough when every individual worker is at home.

But every office worker has the right to work from home.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Any serious business should have a zero trust policy to begin with. Workstations/laptops should automatically lock after 5 minutes of inactivity and require a password to unlock. There should be a clear policy around how mobile devices are used for work (like Teams and Outlook blocking screenshots). The IT Team should be regularly doing table-top exercises to try and find where a threat could get in and put a guard in place to prevent it.



As a member of an IT Security team, everyone has to do the security training because consistently 5-15% of employees fall for scam emails. And it's a rotating list of people not the same folks every time. I've seen this happen to every level of team member from C-Suite to the receptionist. I've also seen people in the modern day using stupid simple passwords. Part of the IT team's job is to protect the business from potential threats. When the employees are a target, then the IT Team has to engage with the employees and do what they can to shore up defenses.

I saw no change in risk when we went fully remote. It's the same issues at the same rates.

I get that a game developer is a situation where remote work could be more of a concern. If you have an artist doing sketches on paper and they are left out on a desk, that could be a problem. But that's a very industry specific issue.

Yup. My company laptop has that auto-lock feature. I dont know what the timer is but 5 min sounds about right. I've never heard about blocking screenshots, but it makes sense for something gaming.

My company laptop goes the extra mile when I fucked up the password. After a bunch of failed attempts, I get that message about contacting IT. I musta had kept trying and failing because instead of the usual IT password reset, it got to a point IT said I had to do some master reset where I had to sit there and they did some hardcore backend/BIOS thing which involved the system generating 16-digit code or whatever requiring them doing it from scratch. I dont remember exactly what they did, but all I did was sit there and they handled it.

 

[Elios83]

Working at home is good for people that have to drive a lot everyday to reach the workplace and I understand the burden that can add.
But that's pretty much it.
In many jobs you simply cannot work at home and when it's possible productivity is just not the same given that you're not easily controlled. Also interaction and cooperation with other collegues is much less effective if done by phone or call rather than looking at the issue together in real life.
It's also really boring to pass all your days at home but this is a personal opinion.
At some point some people will have to decide if they want to do certain jobs or not and if not other people will simply take their place.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Reeeeee

 

[Stooky]

I don't see how a game as large as GTA 6 can be made with everyone being WFH. Hybrid maybe.

 

[kiphalfton]

Nvm

 

[iHaunter]

Yep. It honestly really does just depend. And also you can’t complain you can’t find anyone to work when you don’t allow WFH under reasonable conditions. A lot of the best talent out there wants/needs the flexibility. And if they’re doing their job then what’s the problem?

I work for the DoD so I can't WFH, which is fine. But some jobs are even better working from home.

 

[StereoVsn]

Add to that, they certainly wouldn't be there 8 hours a day.

A lot of them live elsewhere, get a full on conf room installed in their house and fly in to the HQ at regular basis. That goes for most of CxO suite and Senior VPs.