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[FF:Enhanced_Reality]

Without killing each other or turning a discussion into an all our console war. Please.

Now the biggest complaint I have seen from feedback on various social media websites is that PlayStation, is behind Microsoft in a sense, because they haven't embraced backwards compatibility. And this is a fair point. Microsoft have made a great offering there, but the question I pose myself when we have this debate, is in regards to the actual feasibility of backwards compatibility. In a sense, is it not fair to say that Microsoft had a pretty good advantage when it came to offering this feature?

One thing I have to say is that Microsoft is firmly a software giant. They have amazingly talented programmers and developers so in that regard, I would argue Microsoft had a better start to offering backwards compatibility. Not only that but the XBOX, to my knowledge, has always used Direct X and a Windows based operating system on their game consoles. Not only this, but the XBOX 360 was very easy to develop for, when comparing to the hardware of the PlayStation 3 and given the age of the original XBOX and hardware inside I would have assumed it would make it easier to emulate. I would class this as an advantage to offering the service again. In many ways I believe it would have been more outrageous, had Microsoft not offered backwards compatibility, because I would not consider it to be so difficult, given their circumstances, however I believe it is a much different argument for Sony.

How complicated is it really going to be for Sony to offer full backwards comparability on PlayStation 4? Now I know that PS1 emulation is obviously quite simple and to be honest I'm surprised that Sony don't already offer an emulator that offers the kind of visual upgrades of some that are on the web with regards to up-scaling, anti-aliasing, removing frame tearing and improving texture warping etc. I guess it could also be argued that the same should apply to the PSP, that it is very much a possibility to achieve this on PlayStation 4 hardware. The PSP is by modern standards a very limited machine so I don't imagine the PS4 would have much difficulty playing it's titles in 1080p with other nice visual upgrades, so again, I would assume this as a given.

What I really wonder about is PlayStation 2 and PlayStation 3 emulation. These systems had a lot of bespoke hardware, from the emotion engine to the CELL processor. We know that Sony can emulate PS2 games on PS4 from their digital offerings but is that emulator going to be universally compatible with any PS2 title? For example, my 60GB PlayStation 3 will play PS2 games but many suffer from random glitches. One great example would be Silent Hill 2. When I play this game, James left leg randomly disappears and I don't know why. So I am unsure whether the emulation software that Sony uses on the PS2 digital downloads would run every PS2 game without these kind of glitches. More-so when you consider that a PlayStation 2 SoC was essentially built into the PlayStation 3 to provide backward compatibility.

So in fairness, PS1 and PSP should be simple to achieve and you can't really argue that Sony can't do it, rather than won't do it. I guess there are some minor questions around PS2, I mean they did have to patch Dark Cloud for compatibility issues. But is the same still applicable for PlayStation 3? Given the difference in hardware between PS3 and PS4, just how plausible is it? Are we talking a piece of software engineering master piece?

And when we're being completely honest, how many gamer's really use backwards compatibility? I think Sony do have an understandable argument if you consider cost/time/resources vs potential gain, if market research shows that really, while it is nice to have BC, it isn't a system seller or used as much as one would think. The same argument applies for the lack of a 4K BR drive in the PS4 Pro. Sony is part of the blu ray foundation, they must know sales data and trends etc. Is blu ray going to be the format to die at the hands of digital and will it really be worth the added cost? Discuss.

 

[Allandor]

yes it is worth it becaise there are so many good older games.
e.g. PS1&2 games. At some point the old consoles aren't usable anymore. They fail or the TVs are just to big for those old games. So an emulating console that may add additional AA is always worth it.

 

[Leonidas]

There's no reason why the PS4 doesn't allow it's users to at least play the PS1 & PS2 games that they purchased on the PS3 store. PS4 has an emulator for PS1 and PS2, it's just not accessible by users unless they re-buy the few games which are deemed playable on PS4 for those systems.

PSP and PS Vita emulation would also be very easy to do on PS4 and those games would hold up better than the few PS1 and PS2 games Sony allows you to rebuy on PS4.

It's a feature I would use. I use backwards compatibility a lot on Xbox One X, I play a lot of old PC games.

It's not fair to say that Xbox 360 emulation was easy to do. Easier than PS3 maybe but definately not as easy as it would be for Sony to put a PS1/PS2 or PSP/PSV emulator in PS4...

You can't act as if Sony hasn't made emulators before, they emulated PS1 and PS2 on PS3. They emulated PS1 on PSP and PS1&PSP on PSV also...

 

[gspat]

AA?

Also, it strikes me as starnge that OG Xbox and Xbox 360 don't have proper emulators for them yet. That would almost be better than a console having BC.

 

[jshackles]

For me personally, backwards compatibility was a huge reason why I even bothered buying an Xbox One especially as someone who more or less "missed" the last console generation and I would agree that Microsoft has the huge advantage in this area at the moment. We already know that the Playstation 2 emulation that is built in to the Playstation 4 is fairly competent but that Sony wants to re-sell you the games rather than have it be available for all. As you say, the lack of PS1 and PSP playback, even as digital only extra, is a disgrace. Having Playstation 3 titles available via PS4 only via streaming is not a good solution for that era - again, Microsoft wins.

Where things will really get interesting (for me, at least) is what each plans to do in the next generation. I'm so heavily invested in the Playstation 4 environment that if the next Playstation isn't 100% backwards compatible (via discs as I have hundreds of them) then I'm not very interested in what they have to offer. Meanwhile, if the NeXbox comes out swinging being backwards compatible with One games (and subsequently a large subset of 360 and OG Xbox games) as well as the new titles - that's the one I'm going to buy.

 

[Tealmann]

PS1, PS2, and PSP games are a no-brainer, Sony already had emulators for all of those on the PS3 and still has a PS2 emulator on PS4, they just don't want people playing old games for free instead of paying for them again.
For PS3 and Vita I could see them doing something similar to Xbox and 360 games on Xbox one, and porting select games to PS4, but again, they clearly don't want you popping in an old disk and playing it for free.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

Every time I see someone mention OG Xbox as "it's old so it must be easy to do" I cry a little. It has a custom CPU and custom GPU, the latter of which apparently has licensing concerns with it. The same goes for the 360, but a little less so because, IIRC, MS did start making it DX compatibility as an API layer to facilitate easier porting and future compatibility like we're seeing now.

I mean, in the long run, I dislike seeing "it should be easy to do X console" in most regards, because it reeks of armchair development. The PS4 should probably be able to run PSP games since the PS3 could and the PS4 is using x86 architecture that should be able to handle it. that could lead to easy PSone emulation, since that's how the Vita does it. The Vita itself, OTOH, probably wouldn't be as easy to emulate as people seem to think. Even with the hackers exposing a PS2 emulator that is supposedly built into the PS4, we still don't know the proper compatibility of it, despite what videos may say.

 

[Jigsaah]

Is this post just one big..."stop beating up on Sony" argument?

Sony already did full backwards compatibility on the PS3 80gig original SKU. All the way back to PS1. Are you forgetting this? There is no advantage...it's got nothing to do with how talented the programmers are. This has to do with one thing....money.

Microsoft has an advantage in that they are innately more consumer friendly than Sony. Period. End of sentence. Hands down.

Sony bought Gaikai and went the PSNow route...trying to charge gamers to rebuy old games essentially. No one argues that PSNow is a fantastic service. It's overpriced, underdeveloped and the input lag...come on. The library may be the only advantage, especially if you were hardcore 360 last gen. Even then, Game Pass allows you to fully download games just like EA Access does. You basically own the game until you unsubscribe. It's cheaper, but the library is kinda meh right now. But the promise is there because of Microsoft's yet again super stupid consumer friendly move to include all future exclusives day one on Game Pass.

 

[jshackles]

Will be interesting to see what Nintendo comes up with in this regard when the rumored Switch Online stuff comes out. If they go full-Netflix on a selection of older titles, that will be huge. We already know their WiiU backwards compatibility plans mirror Sony's "buy it again" (see: Bayonetta, Pokken Tournament, Mario Kart, etc).

 

[nekkid]

As a consumer, why should you care about Microsoft having a better advantage (debatable) wrt BC?

The simple fact is that one is offering it and the other isn’t. That’s it. That’s all that should matter.

 

[rmatheso]

My main concern is hardware failure. Yes, you can buy an older PS3 which plays PS1, and PS2 games... but how long until it fails? I hope that Microsoft is locking in the compatibility now through future hardware generations. I still have my 360 going but it sounds a little "rough", not to mention that capacitor problem in the OG Xbox.

 

[Sosokrates]

Xbox one has the best form of BC this gen.
PS4 had better graphics.
Consumers dont care about how,what and why a feature got there, they just care its there.

So for all customers know, the reason that PS4 has NO BC like the X1 could be the most understandable reason ever, people are not going to care, apart from a few.

The X1 has a feature that adds value, and the PS4 does not.It really is that simple.

As for you thinking BC is not that important, well there are plenty maybe even millions of people who do... So take from that what you will.

 

[MickeyPhree]

I didn't buy an Xbox one for backwards compatibility, but I have used it to play fallout 3, new Vegas, and Dark Souls. If MS can keep BC in there systems going forward, there's a very good chance I stick with them.

 

[Captain Zyrain]

I love backwards compatibility on my Xbox. Getting to play the OG Xbox Pirates! game again was a blast.

I would say most of my gaming time is spent on new games, but a couple times a month, at least, I dabble in some older games.

I really appreciate being able to 'save' all my old games, and being able to use my old disk and not paying anything else is great. If they got RallySport 1 & 2 on BC I'd be stoked for life.

 

[CloudStrife_ca]

Backwards compatibility is important but as a collector its not the end of the world for me if its not there, its not like I'm selling off my old consoles or putting them in a closet or something. If this gen has taught us anything, remasters make money for companies where as backwards compatibility costs money to incorporate and results in lost money otherwise generated from those remasters. When you do the math, how do you think companies like Sony and Microsoft will side? along with the companies that make these games. Gaf is lit up with remaster threads right now, Shadow of the Colossus, MediEvil, Burnout and a thread dedicated to what remasters you'd like to see, companies are profiting off of these remasters pretty hard right now.

 

[FF:Enhanced_Reality]

Is this post just one big..."stop beating up on Sony" argument?

Sony already did full backwards compatibility on the PS3 80gig original SKU. All the way back to PS1. Are you forgetting this? There is no advantage...it's got nothing to do with how talented the programmers are. This has to do with one thing....money

No this is supposed to be a debate that's not biased or an attack on a particular console manufacturer and I haven't forgotten anything since I clearly said that in the opening post where I mentioned that Sony only got PS2 emulation on PS3 because the original 60GB PS3 literally had a system on chip built into the console.

Backwards compatibility is important but as a collector its not the end of the world for me if its not there, its not like I'm selling off my old consoles or putting them in a closet or something. If this gen has taught us anything, remasters make money for companies where as backwards compatibility costs money to incorporate and results in lost money otherwise generated from those remasters. When you do the math, how do you think companies like Sony and Microsoft will side? along with the companies that make these games. Gaf is lit up with remaster threads right now, Shadow of the Colossus, MediEvil, Burnout and a thread dedicated to what remasters you'd like to see, companies are profiting off of these remasters pretty hard right now.

Not going to lie. I really like the idea of MediEvil and the rumoured Spyro game. I do dig a good remaster.

 

[Leonidas]

I clearly said that in the opening post where I mentioned that Sony only got PS2 emulation on PS3 because the original 60GB PS3 literally had a system on chip built into the console.

PS3 Slim/Super Slim can run hundreds of emulated "PS2 Classics" that can be purchased from PSN. PS3 Slim/Super Slim doesn't contain the PS2 chip...

 

[Randomizer]

The amazing backwards compatibility of the Xbox One X would be my biggest reason to get one. Best preforming console version of 3rd party games is second. And finally their paltry first party content. It is such an amazing console too but Sony’s amazing first party content and having a mid range PC means I can’t really justify getting one.

 

[Iced Arcade]

backward compatibility seems more important this gen just for the fact this gen and last gen are made of extremely similar games and mostly are resolution bumps (for the most part).

I think Sony's lack of BC is a mix of not being a software giant, financially remastering games and a streaming service like PS now is a profitable gain for a business (which I get, they are here to make money not friends)

 

[pr0cs]

If Microsoft had BC at launch I would have likely not bought a ps4, as it stands Sony would rather milk remasters so I've basically abandoned both consoles and am sticking to pc this gen. I cannot trust companies that are happy to orphan my digital purchases from gen to gen

 

[hikarutilmitt]

Something else worth thinking about is how possible it would be for MS to port the BC emulation layer they're using for the XBO to Windows 10 PCs. It really feels like that may be a goal at some point, but it also could be the thing they hold back to not kill sales of the console further.

I think we can all almost expect next gen to play current gen games if they keep going with standardized architecture, since that is one of the other limits to doing it at all. At some point in the future we could see older systems become more easily emulated for the OEMs since they hold the cards for their own system APIs, but time will tell how that turns out. I'm hopeful for PS5 to play PS4 games, but I feel like I'll be all but skipping whatever next Xbox is made given MS's great 1st/2nd party Play Anywhere initiative. I know if/when I get Crackdown 3 I'll be playing on my PC more than my Xbox One merely because it'll run better and closer to playing like an XBOX than the XBO.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Sony's "PS2 hits" support for the PS4 has been a shamles ....how about bringing out such hits like Rage Racer, or the PS2 exclusive in Japan only remake of Panzer Dragoon?

 

[jshackles]

Sony's "PS2 hits" support for the PS4 has been a shamles ....how about bringing out such hits like Rage Racer, or the PS2 exclusive in Japan only remake of Panzer Dragoon?

The last PS2 games to release for PS4 (the Jak and Daxter games) released Nov. 28th of last year. Microsoft has released 21 new backwards compatible Xbox 360 games since then - and they even took the entire month of December off.

PS2 games on the PS4 were doomed from the outset given Sony's requirements that the studios themselves do all the work, but not having a single release in the last 3 months is just shameful.

 

[NahaNago]

And when we're being completely honest, how many gamer's really use backwards compatibility? I think Sony do have an understandable argument if you consider cost/time/resources vs potential gain, if market research shows that really, while it is nice to have BC, it isn't a system seller or used as much as one would think. The same argument applies for the lack of a 4K BR drive in the PS4 Pro. Sony is part of the blu ray foundation, they must know sales data and trends etc. Is blu ray going to be the format to die at the hands of digital and will it really be worth the added cost? Discuss.

This is the part that I would like to focus on, since that is also something that I was wondering about as well. I tend to view console gamers as folks who only buy the most new hype games, so bc just seems weird when I think of these companies trying to push it. If it was as important as gamers say then a lot more of these companies would have put their old games on the new consoles without needing to wait for Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. I believe that Sony needs to at least for business purposes change the way that console gamers looks at games for this instance. Do a better job of promoting games that aren't AAA but have an interesting twist to them. I do think that PS1 and PS2 games should have been easily able to put on the ps4 and maybe waiting it out a gen for the ps5 to emulate the ps3 by I guess raw powering through it. Do i think bc is needed no, but it would be nice. If necessary they could just create their own cheap retro device for the old games and just keep on moving forward.

 

[rmatheso]

This is why I have a Vita/PSTV. Great for PS1/PSP games. As for how many gamers use BC? Well, I absolutely do... Keeping my backlog/library up and playable is a priority. Problem is that I am an old parent so my time is limited, so I guess that's another problem..

 

[Mattyp]

PS1/PS2 no excuse apart from blatant money grab.

PS3 I'm going to say wouldn't be much harder than Microsofts original Nvidia xbox or PowerPC of the 360. I have no doubt Microsoft engineers could get it working on PS4, Can Sony's? Not a chance in hell. It took years for them to even add multimedia play back at the start of this generation.

This isn't meant to be a console hate post, I own a PS4 and have probably put more hours on it this generation than my xbox due to more friends owning one until the X came out we're all trying to get people to migrate to. But Sony had a successful launch and then have done what since then..? This entire generation reeks of having another situation of how the PS2 to PS3 played out with how the PS4 to PS5 will play out in the future if Sony keep up the same direction.

 

[AgentP]

PS4 compatibility is a done deal for the PS5. The sole reason they ditched difficult hardware like the Cell for x86.

 

[RollingNowhere]

I really like backwards compatibility but am a bit spoiled by the games that get performance bumps on the new hardware like Fallout 3 on the Xbox One X.

 

[ReBurn]

PS4 compatibility is a done deal for the PS5. The sole reason they ditched difficult hardware like the Cell for x86.

Backward compatibility is not the reason Sony changed their hardware architecture with PS4. Reduced R&D and production costs, as well as ease of development, is the more likely reason. PS4 BC on PS5 would just be a convenient byproduct.

 

[Jigsaah]

I honestly haven't tried many backwards compatible games on the Xbox One X yet. I'm kinda addicted to PubG and Monster Hunter right now. I need help. I still have my Backwards compatible PS3 and I will never get rid of it because it hold a lot of value in that one system. Being able to play most if not all older BC games all on one system made that system worth $600 bucks (though I got it for like $250) a few years later after they discontinued it. Absolute steal and I'm proud of it thank you very much.

 

[John Day]

Easy. Sony went first head on with backwards compatibility, until PS3 they realized: Cell is habing problems with many PS2 games, and people were STILL buying more PS2 ( arguably new and used) games than their lacking PS3 offerings at the beginning.

I may be remembering details wrong, but all in all, I do remember news outlets reporting on how it was affecting their market.

I bet it’s why Sony went with limited offerings this gen.

 

[WaterAstro]

Sony is ahead of Microsoft in actually having more new exclusive games.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Sony is ahead of Microsoft in actually having more new exclusive games.

Sony is definitely ahead in that regard and it's the most important thing, but MS has closed the gap in every other area considerably in that they can now claim that their console will give you the best version of multiplats, they have BC (a feature which I don't care about too much) and they also have the means to give a better look for older BC games.

 

[Pantz]

Backwards compatibility is more than just a simple feature to play your older games. In the digital age, it means having a growing digital library. Xbox One has done it so well, that you can even call it a rival to Steam. It's good for developers because now their games can be sold for years and years into the future, rather then all sales coming from launch and then no more after that.

I really hope the PS5 will have full PS4 BC and not force you to re-buy any of them. From there they should copy Microsoft and start building their digital library of PS1, PS2, and PS3 games that will all stay with you onto the PS6.

 

[Trogdor1123]

It hasn't been a huge concern to me in the last couple generations (ever actually) but for the next generation it will be. I've been on Sony since the PS1 but it could easily change next gen. I now feel the games have met a point of deminishing returns where old games don't look that old anymore. Combine this with the way the Xbox has handled BC where it enhances them and it's a no brainer.

If the ps5 isn't compatible with ps4 games, at least all the digital ones, I'll probably jump ship to Xbox (assuming they do do it of course).

I wouldn't have a reason not too, BC would make that difference to me this time.

 

[ReBurn]

Sony is ahead of Microsoft in actually having more new exclusive games.

And if that was what this thread is about it would be relevant. But it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[rokkerkory]

I love that not only my X is BC but it enhances BC games automatically. MS says it’ll try to carry your games fwd with each gen. That’s great... don’t want to rebuy any games as much as possible.

If it takes off, I am sure Sony will do same.

 

[wipeout364]

I use backwards compatibility on Xbox all the time. It’s an amazing feature. In fact at the start of this gen I was buying PS4 games primarily and have moved to Xbox with the release of the one X and backwards compatibility. So you can’t say the feature doesn’t matter because Sony has lost a lot of business from me and I’m sure there are others. All multiplats I buy on Xbox now. Whereas before they announced backwards compatibility I bought all those on PS4 and PSnow is not a good substitute.

 

[The_Mike]

I love that not only my X is BC but it enhances BC games automatically. MS says it’ll try to carry your games fwd with each gen. That’s great... don’t want to rebuy any games as much as possible.

If it takes off, I am sure Sony will do same.

Sony will only do it if they lose customers on not having it. Sony has been really arrogant this gen. But I don’t blame them, since they are in a position to do so

 

[DonJimbo]

Backwards Compability is a must
I dont want to buy my games again
And want to play my owned games on the succesor console if my older console is non functional

 

[Pantz]

Sony will only do it if they lose customers on not having it. Sony has been really arrogant this gen. But I don’t blame them, since they are in a position to do so

You have to consider if they would get even more customers/sales from having a full BC digital library. Why would they choose to ignore it if so?

 

[WaterAstro]

And if that was what this thread is about it would be relevant. But it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

It does have everything to do with this thread because it is the reason why PS4 won't have BC. Shuhei Yoshida said in an E3 2015 interview that they're not going to have BC and rather focus on new experiences.

 

[The_Mike]

You have to consider if they would get even more customers/sales from having a full BC digital library. Why would they choose to ignore it if so?

Well, Sony is in a position where they completely dominate the market. Microsoft has since the failing launch of Xbox One been really customer friendly, why Sony keeps being worse and worse about consumer support and friendliness, yet it doesn’t bite them in the ass. Sony is just simply in a position where they can do whatever they want, and get away with it.

It won’t last forever, but as long as it stands that way, they will follow the rule. It’s classic, and Microsoft has done the same before entering this gen.

 

[MayauMiao]

If there was backward compatibility, would Sony have remastered Shadow of Colossus?

 

[KiteGr]

The lack of BC is my biggest issue with my PS4 and 3.
I've got tons of PS2 and PS1 games, some of them rare, most of them not available on the store.

The sad thing is that even if they add BC of any kind, it'll most likely be in the form of digital only goods where old disks are not supported and you have to re-buy your games.
The even sadder truth is that they'll most likely avoid rating or re-rating whatever game they choose to re-sell us, and what they release would be subjected to whatever censorships it had and the depressing European catalog of unreleased games (I want to play Parasite Eve and Xenosaga god damn it!).

It's times like these I regret not pirating games anymore.

 

[Filben]

There's no reason why the PS4 doesn't allow it's users to at least play the PS1 & PS2 games that they purchased on the PS3 store. PS4 has an emulator for PS1 and PS2, it's just not accessible by users unless they re-buy the few games which are deemed playable on PS4 for those systems.

That's why I dislike Sony's policy. Just to grab more and more dollars with their PS Now bullshit and PS Store. You can have a physical copy of a game on your shelf, the digital version bought for PS3, but hell no, don't you dare demanding to play this on your new console. Of course there is this argument, that new consoles are for new games and you can still play old games on your old console. But why even offer "PS1/2 classics" in the first place on PS4? Not doing so, would be a statement and commitment to underline this argument. So apparently there is a legitimate reason for offering old games on a new console. Unfortunately ony for a price.

 

[WaterAstro]

That's why I dislike Sony's policy. Just to grab more and more dollars with their PS Now bullshit and PS Store. You can have a physical copy of a game on your shelf, the digital version bought for PS3, but hell no, don't you dare demanding to play this on your new console. Of course there is this argument, that new consoles are for new games and you can still play old games on your old console. But why even offer "PS1/2 classics" in the first place on PS4? Not doing so, would be a statement and commitment to underline this argument. So apparently there is a legitimate reason for offering old games on a new console. Unfortunately ony for a price.

The launched with no BC, and they still don't have BC. If you bought a PS4 knowing that, then you can't really complain about their policy.

 

[_Justinian_]

Why is backwards compatibility so important? Did your older system break? Is it possible to replace your older system or get it fixed? Are you buying more games than you actually have time to play and basically didn't finish them before a new system was released? Your moral code may vary but there are solutions to this. You can import, you can buy used, you can buy new, you can use a virtual console on your system of choice, you can wait for a remaster, or you can emulate.

 

[Badlucktroll]

I have always wondered if Sony has ever got some Ps3 games running on the Ps4 through emulation behind closed doors.

 

[Mattyp]

Why is backwards compatibility so important? Did your older system break? Is it possible to replace your older system or get it fixed? Are you buying more games than you actually have time to play and basically didn't finish them before a new system was released? Your moral code may vary but there are solutions to this. You can import, you can buy used, you can buy new, you can use a virtual console on your system of choice, you can wait for a remaster, or you can emulate.

Do older system break? All older systems are highly suspect-able to breakage, PS1,PS2 constant laser issues. I remember standing my PSX on its side even when it was new. PS3, YLOD. 360 RLOD... List goes on, this hardware won't last for ever and do you expect it to last another 10 years?

Why replace an older system at your own cost when the current newest one is more than capable?

Of course I am, the backlog of games grows every year with the dozens of releases we get and the older we get with less time. Everything gets remastered? There's thousands of games we get 5 remasters a year. Emulate? PS3 and 360?



Microsoft is making sure every game from every generation is playable 30 years down the line at this rate and its commendable. Anyone trying to spin it as a negative has some seriously questionable hate for the company. It costs you nothing. Why anyone in here tries to hate on a company for a free service on the protection of games continuing to be enjoyed for life I just can't explain anymore.