Support NeoGAF

[Yonyx]

OMG, Hearthstone uses Unity... Cuphead, Ori, Pillars of Eternity, Pokemon Go, etc.

Does it count as an installation if I downloaded the game from PS Plus or Gamepass? This should be reportable in a court of law. They're going down, the problem is that they're going to take a lot of independent studios with them to the bottom of the sea.

 

[Sorcerer]

John Riccitiello: Insider Trading?​

 

[SirKicksalot]

- Charity-related installs - the pricing change and install count will not be applied to your charity bundles/initiatives.

I know they have Israel's top spy monetization and distribution people working for them, but how can this be tracked?



...wow

 

[-Zelda-]

So is this going to have a negative impact on any console games that use this engine? Like the upcoming EIyuuden Chronicle?

 

[CGNoire]

Glad people are taking a stand, it was a ridiculous idea from the start.

Geez do modern day "indie devs" write like children though. Some of those "pr/psa" are proper cringe.

There's times where informal writing can work, but as a company you should always be writing formally when talking to the public and your consumers

Yep and to think they probably did multiple drafts too.

 

[NiiloPielinen]

I wonder if it's even legal to apply this to games already released as seem to be their intention. It's probably gonna end up in a very big lawsuit that Unity will lose.

This is a good question. Does anyone know what the previous unity license has said about pricing? Can they really just announce a new pricing model that affects even pre-existing games? Isn't that a breach of contract?

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

 

[Cyberpunkd]

This is a good question. Does anyone know what the previous unity license has said about pricing? Can they really just announce a new pricing model that affects even pre-existing games? Isn't that a breach of contract?

From contracts I see and sign a lot of them have "service provider can change the delivery terms at any time for any reason", but it's unwritten rule you don't go back on the negotiated terms, you renegotiate going forward. Even if I don't think it will hold in court.

 

[Fools idol]

The fact that they removed their fucking TOS from github is hilarious, it's clear someone at the top said 'fuck everyone, we want more money and they will take it or fuck off'.

Unity will burn

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Unity must be on the brink of bankruptcy to make a drastic move like that.

They’re dead I think

Have you seen their losses?

 

[Wildebeest]

From contracts I see and sign a lot of them have "service provider can change the delivery terms at any time for any reason", but it's unwritten rule you don't go back on the negotiated terms, you renegotiate going forward. Even if I don't think it will hold in court.

Isn't it so that really shitty or illegal parts of contracts are not really legally binding, even if people sign them? Like if I got you to sign a contract saying you will sacrifice your firstborn to me, it isn't a legal contractual obligation no matter what. So if a lawyer put in a firstborn clause, it is just them trying their luck.

 

[bbeach123]

If they can do this , what stop them from x2 price the next year ? You either delete your game or had to go with it ?

Who would still using unity to create their next game and hope that they doesnt fuck them in the ass like this 5 years later ?

 

[\m/etalStorm]

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

I can't stop laughing. This is so funny. Publishers and devs fucking over their customers for years with bullshit season passes, mtx, fomo marketing, preorder bonuses, surprise mechanics etc. And then, when an engine creator adopts one of these shitty business practices, they all bitch and scream like whiney children

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Isn't it so that really shitty or illegal parts of contracts are not really legally binding, even if people sign them? Like if I got you to sign a contract saying you will sacrifice your firstborn to me, it isn't a legal contractual obligation no matter what. So if a lawyer put in a firstborn clause, it is just them trying their luck.

In general companies will put a lot of things in the contracts that do not hold in court, it’s rather annoying having to explain especially to Americans that just because you signed a TOS for something doesn’t mean you are held by it - if the provision is illegal to begin with it is illegal after you sign as well.

 

[Holammer]

Unity dev call it quits and gives some insight into how the decision was received internally before it was rolled out.

 

[cyberheater]

Get fucked Unity.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I can't stop laughing. This is so funny. Publishers and devs fucking over their customers for years with bullshit season passes, mtx, fomo marketing, preorder bonuses, surprise mechanics etc. And then, when an engine creator adopts one of these shitty business practices, they all bitch and scream like whiney children

This is way worse than any season pass or mtx.

Imagine if you bought a game, played it for 150 hours and forgot about it. Then one day the publisher of the game says they'll start charging players based on the amount of hours played, including hours that were already clocked in.

You cannot get a refund, deleting the game doesn't work. They're saying you'll have to pay for all of those 150 hours you played and thats your only option. Thats how bad this situation is.

 

[kruis]

Unity dev call it quits and gives some insight into how the decision was received internally before it was rolled out.

Unity devs leaving in droves, devs developing in Unity leaving in droves. That company is imploding before our eyes.

 

[Maestr0]

Come on, which one of you did it ?

 

[Eotheod]

Yeah so had a look at Godot, actually a very competent game engine and can see it gaining some great spotlight thanks to Unity being idiots. It certainly has further to go in the 3D field, but 2D-wise it is incredibly in-depth.

 

[mosantos]

Amazing article about this situation:

The Death of Unity

If you're starting a new game project, do not use Unity.

www.gamedeveloper.com

 

[lostinblue]

Mutiny against Unity.

 

[kruis]

Yeah so had a look at Godot, actually a very competent game engine and can see it gaining some great spotlight thanks to Unity being idiots. It certainly has further to go in the 3D field, but 2D-wise it is incredibly in-depth.

If those are the most impressive games made using Godot, then it's not really competing with Unity.

 

[cyberheater]

This is going to have a serious impact on VR games. Lots of them made with Unity.

 

[SportsFan581]

This is way worse than any season pass or mtx.

Imagine if you bought a game, played it for 150 hours and forgot about it. Then one day the publisher of the game says they'll start charging players based on the amount of hours played, including hours that were already clocked in.

You cannot get a refund, deleting the game doesn't work. They're saying you'll have to pay for all of those 150 hours you played and thats your only option. Thats how bad this situation is.

This change effects games already released on Unity? If so, that does seem outrages. Seems like the structure in place at the time of release should hold.

 

[Guilty_AI]

This change effects games already released on Unity? If so, that does seem outrages. Seems like the structure in place at the time of release should hold.

Yes, they since "clarified" they won't be retroactively charging for previous installs, however they still count towards the threshold. Also - and this is the main problem - any new install after 1st january 2024 will still be charged, meaning they will keep charging for the games even if the game in question isn't being sold anymore.

In other words, Unity changed the TOS in such a way that, even if the dev in question doesn't agree with it, even if they cease all development with Unity, even if they pull all their products made with Unity from all stores, they would still be charged a fee, seeing as previous buyers can freely install and uninstall their games.

 

[cyberheater]

Unity reddits are going mental. Unity2d has gone private in protest.

SideQuest dev is threatening to sue.

 

[SportsFan581]

Yes, they since "clarified" they won't be retroactively charging for previous installs, however they still count towards the threshold. Also - and this is the main problem - any new install after 1st january 2024 will still be charged, meaning they will keep charging for the games even if the game in question isn't being sold anymore.

In other words, Unity changed the TOS in such a way that, even if the dev in question doesn't agree with it, even if they cease all development with Unity, even if they pull all their products made with Unity from all stores, they would still be charged a fee, seeing as previous buyers can freely install and uninstall their games.

You mean the charge isn't per license, but is instead per installation of a license? Goodbye Unity if that is the case, a group of bad actors could literally erase the profit of a sale by simply uninstalling and reinstalling a license, that doesn't sound right. Even most F2P games generate a license within whatever storefront they are running out of, trying to drill down more than that is insane.

A lot of gamers out there still have relatively small SSD drives, you have to figure they could be uninstalling/reinstalling things quite a bit. Games are often huge today.

Hopefully there is some miscommunication/misunderstanding here and this is more about charging a fee for every copy sold (license generated - free or not).

As you are explaining this would be a significant change for most of these companies that would effect game pricing and even holiday discounts and that kind of thing.

 

[Guilty_AI]

a group of bad actors could literally erase the profit of a sale by simply uninstalling and reinstalling a license, that doesn't sound right.

Yes, this was one of the main concerns devs brought up. They changed to one installation per license since the backlash.

 

[jayj]

In general companies will put a lot of things in the contracts that do not hold in court, it’s rather annoying having to explain especially to Americans that just because you signed a TOS for something doesn’t mean you are held by it - if the provision is illegal to begin with it is illegal after you sign as well.

Exactly, as far as the law is concerned, a TOS is meaningless when you're in a legal dispute and it's terms violate federal/state laws. At least that's how it works in the US. The judge will simply void it on the grounds that it violates existing laws and regulations and that will be that.

 

[jayj]

Yes, they since "clarified" they won't be retroactively charging for previous installs, however they still count towards the threshold. Also - and this is the main problem - any new install after 1st january 2024 will still be charged, meaning they will keep charging for the games even if the game in question isn't being sold anymore.

In other words, Unity changed the TOS in such a way that, even if the dev in question doesn't agree with it, even if they cease all development with Unity, even if they pull all their products made with Unity from all stores, they would still be charged a fee, seeing as previous buyers can freely install and uninstall their games.

Sounds like grounds for a massive lawsuit.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

In general companies will put a lot of things in the contracts that do not hold in court, it’s rather annoying having to explain especially to Americans that just because you signed a TOS for something doesn’t mean you are held by it - if the provision is illegal to begin with it is illegal after you sign as well.

Yup. Any any further contract stemming from an illegal ordeal is invalid too.

I remember my old university prof telling us in law class that if someone robbed a bank and he had a contract with someone saying he'd pay him a lump sum to help him out, and then that second guy had a contract with someone else paying him stolen money, everything would get nuked in court.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

 

[Eotheod]

If those are the most impressive games made using Godot, then it's not really competing with Unity.

That's just a random video I found on YouTube when typing in Godot. I'm sure there is more extensive games if you look further. As I said, it's 2D engine creation is quite amazing, just needs to catch up with the 3D development.

 

[lyan]

I doubt any of those companies will pay anything. They haven't agreed to those terms when they released the actual games so... it's not something that can be legally enforced after the fact. They'll sue and win.

That's like Unreal suddenly deciding they'll get 80% of the revenue of every single copy sold from any game that uses their engine, regardless of when it was released. It just won't hold up in court.

Unreal's license terms specifically allows user to stick to old agreed terms as long as it's with the old version. Unity's dont apparently per themselves.
Sources:

7. The Agreement Between You and Epic
a. Amendments
If we make changes to this Agreement, you are not required to accept the amended Agreement, and this Agreement will continue to govern your use of any Licensed Technology you already have access to.

https://forum.unity.com/threads/unity-plan-pricing-and-packaging-updates.1482750/page-45#post-9297488

 

[jshackles]

Steam Store

Steam is the ultimate destination for playing, discussing, and creating games.

store.steampowered.com

 

[StreetsofBeige]

As for the discussion about contracts, every company has the right to change a contract. All a company needs to do is offer the new terms and a reasonable time gap. Just because two companies have an agreement doesnt mean it can go on forever unless there is specific terms like the Epic stuff above where they outright say the person can decline any new terms.
.
But the majority of contracts wont say that. So unless Unity's terms say they will never change the terms and every licensee can reject new ones, Unity has the right to change them. No different than any of us paying utility bills. The fee is X per watt or liter or water used. You pay the bill. Nowhere does it say that's the forever rate and they cant change the price. But what is fair is that they give ample notice (Unity has given about 4 months notice effective Jan 2024). Nobody should change the terms taking affect tomorrow kind of thing. When it comes to price changes in stores and suppliers, most stores require 90-120 days notice from suppliers wheeling and deal in between. Its even a stated policy. So Pepsi cant force a price increase on Walmart announcing it today and then prices go up a quarter on Monday.

Stores often have black put periods too where they wont change any prices during November/December because it's holiday time and they dont want to be messing with admin and pricing when it's Christmas buying time. If you want an agreed to price change, give 90-120 days notice and maybe an agreement can happen in Q1 when the Xmas rush is over.

 

[peronmls]

Works on my machine

Also,

The Jack Sparrow editions.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

As for the discussion about contracts, every company has the right to change a contract. All a company needs to do is offer the new terms and a reasonable time gap. Just because two companies have an agreement doesnt mean it can go on forever unless there is specific terms like the Epic stuff above where they outright say the person can decline any new terms.
.
But the majority of contracts wont say that. So unless Unity's terms say they will never change the terms and every licensee can reject new ones, Unity has the right to change them. No different than any of us paying utility bills. The fee is X per watt or liter or water used. You pay the bill. Nowhere does it say that's the forever rate and they cant change the price. But what is fair is that they give ample notice (Unity has given about 4 months notice effective Jan 2024). Nobody should change the terms taking affect tomorrow kind of thing. When it comes to price changes in stores and suppliers, most stores require 90-120 days notice from suppliers wheeling and deal in between. Its even a stated policy. So Pepsi cant force a price increase on Walmart announcing it today and then prices go up a quarter on Monday.

Stores often have black put periods too where they wont change any prices during November/December because it's holiday time and they dont want to be messing with admin and pricing when it's Christmas buying time. If you want an agreed to price change, give 90-120 days notice and maybe an agreement can happen in Q1 when the Xmas rush is over.

You can't unilaterally amend a contract with a material adverse change like this. It's not the same as rate changes with utilities where increases in rates are a) generally not material and b) you assent to by continuing to use the service. These changes are not only material - they're trying to impose it on developers that previously built a project in Unity and aren't even using it now. And trying to impose it on platform holders for... some reason I can't imagine.

 

[Stitch]

Steam Store

Steam is the ultimate destination for playing, discussing, and creating games.

store.steampowered.com

I hope this doesn't kill them. Love their games.

One of their new games (also made in Unity) looks interesting