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DF - Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth: PS5 Pro vs PS5 - A Vast Improvement At 60FPS
- Thread starter HeisenbergFX4
- Start date
Crispy Gamer
Member
Results so far indicate it's the biggest mid-gen jump I've ever seen not even one x was doubling frame rate and that's universally considered the biggest mid-gen upgrade.
MisterXDTV
Member
The One X still had that weak Jaguar CPU.
No question this is gonna be the biggest mid-gen upgrade when you add up the "big 3"
- 67% more GPU cores
- RDNA 4 RT
- PSSR
SweetTooth
Gold Member
Just forget about the power jumps of the past, won't happen again for anything (even PC). Nvidia latest and greatest $2000 GPU will be a marginal upgrade to their current one.
Bojji
Member
One X was able to render game that was 900p on Xbox One at native 3840x2160 (RDR2) - this requires more than 4x more power. Pro so far keeps resolutions the same.
Jaguar in one X was 31% faster, not maybe 10%. Plus 4GB of RAM more and massive jump in memory bandwidth. PS5 Pro is not even close to power jump like this (and all that for 500$, same MSRP as base console!).
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Now the argument is back to native resolutions. They didn't have AI tech back then, or they would have used it. This is to provide the DLSS like tech that people rave about, but not when it's PSSR I suppose.
Painfully transparent.
Painfully transparent.
Bojji
Member
If they had ML reconstruction they wouldn't bother with native 4k in RDR2 - they would have used this 4.5x power jump to make game look much better (sadly with shit cpu, no room for framerate improvements), they don't have much room with mere 45% upgrade (1.45x). People saying that PS5 Pro is the biggest mid upgrade ever are just wrong/full of shit, in fact it's the worst one.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
No, they would not have. This is Rockstar we are talking about here. They can't be fucked to do a 60fps patch for the game.
You're being painfully obtuse in this entire thread. On purpose.
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Could I interest you in this...
HeisenbergFX4
Member
Crispy Gamer
Member
Notice how I said "results" obviously one x brute forced its way to amazing results but we are effectively getting a 4k(and sometimes better)quality picture @60 fps with pro even if it's not native it looks just as good or better.
Bojji
Member
Results are impressive, especially in this game. But it really objectively don't beat power jump One X got, in pure hardware AND results - for the same amount of money base console launched (and with disc drive, lol). With PS4 there is room for debate, developers were often lazy with this console and memory bandwidth/size jump wasn't good enough for some games for bigger improvements.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
PaintTinJr
Member
For me, I'm still surprised, not because it looks really bad, but because it seem so out of character for a high quality Japanese developer to not re-balance their renderer first and replace troublesome ancient fx and increase rendering resolution in source data and instead march straight onto using the new crutch, which can't fix the ancient fx source issue.
Compared and contrasted to team Asobi's technical efforts on the base PS5 that look pixel perfect in Astro Bot, Square by their own previous gen standards and the general philosophy in rendering we see in all Nintendo first party stuff, and have seen historically from Japanese developers through the generations to provide clean and complimentary imagery from background to foreground, it feels like the pressure of the sales under performing and OLED user criticism of 60fps mode - despite the game being turn based or palatial action pace not needing 60 - has got to Square, as the tweet looks like an intended acknowledgement of a capitulation to DF's arbitrary and nonsense technical demands for their game since launch just to fix the game's underperforming sales with some DF promotion.
Me personally I think the game already looked and played great at 30fp and would have rather seen the Pro version improve the engine on visuals at 30fps even more before using PSSR.
TheRedRiders
Member
I'm not sure why you're constantly trying to downplay the PS5 Pro.
Making the argument that it's the weakest jump in console generations lacks a lot of much needed nuance, the PS4 to PS4 Pro, and likewise the Xbox One to One X had a much higher jump in GPU performance, size and bandwidth, that's because they needed to, as at the time it was the only way to increase performance and IQ.
The PS5 Pro for what it's aiming to do simply doesn't need this massive jump in raw compute or rasterization thanks to ML and AI upsampling. I remember people were downplaying the PS5's ray-tracing capabilities at the start of the generation, and now we have the Pro which is offering 2 to 3x ray-tracing performance which is a significant upgrade.
This isn't a jump from 1080p to 4K like the previous generation, it's more focused on 30 FPS to 60 FPS whilst maintaining IQ and maintaining or adding in ray-tracing effects, which the Pro is doing very successfully. These are not arbitrary benchmarks either, it's what most gamers care about.
The Pro is like 60% and 50% faster in terms of texture and ROP fiil-rates vs the base PS5.
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Crispy Gamer
Member
Bro you are adding in tons of caveats
I'm just talking about the results/real world performance but it's OK we just disagree but in a different conversation just talking raw numbers then absolutely one x is the biggest jump on paper but my point is we can't just look at raw numbers to quantify real world performance. Microsoft thought they would have a real world 30% rendering and 25% memory bandwidth performance advantage just looking at PS5 spec reveal but we all see how that turned out.Well,in terms of fill-rates,the Series consoles are roughly comparable to the XboneX and XboneS. The Series X is about 3x in terms of both fill-rates and 2.5x the bandwidth vs the S.
The uplift of the Xbone X vs S are a little over 4x in terms of bandwidth,4x the texture and 2x pixel fill-rate in favor of the XboneX vs the base Xbone.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
I don't know if you are doing this on purpose.... but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't.
There are a lot of mitigating factors to consider when looking at the last gen and this gen. And I would think you are well learned in these matters enough to know everything I am about to say... so it makes me wonder why you are saying what you are saying to begin with.
- I think it would be obvious by now to anyone that has remotely followed tech over the last 2 decades, that (pardon the pun), Moores law is dead.
PS1 to PS2:~10x more powerful
PS2 to PS3: ~35x more powerful
PS3 to PS4: ~8x more powerful
PS4 to PS5: ~5.5x more powerful
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what has been going on, and you can do the same for GPUs too. That brings me to the next point
- If the laws of physics means we can no longer just throw ever bigger processors and ever-rising clocks at the problem anymore, it simply means that the next technological leap would be to make "smarter" processors. And that is literally what is being done now. The PS5pro, doesn't need to be 4x more powerful than the base PS5 to justify its cost, especially when compared to say the One X, because we simply don't live in that world anymore.
Because now, its a results game, not a numbers game. Eg. If running native rez, and that is your only option, how much power do you need to take PS5 games from say 1080p to 4K. That would be about 4x the power right? So we are talking about like a an actual 40TF (or 80TF dual issue) GPU. For some perspective.... that's 2TF less than the 4090.
The 4090... an almost $2000 GPU.
You don't see how crazy what you are expecting sounds?
So now, we have smarter processors, giving the perceptual results of a 400%+ performance uplift, while using less than 70% more actual hardware. That is what you are paying for. This is the world we live in now. If you are going to make comparisons and throw numbers around, then please, be consistent, and look around you. Sony, or the PlayStation does not exist in a vacuum.
- And lastly... I am not calling you ignorant (pity I have to make such a disclaimer before I even make the point since we have some super sensitive people around these parts), but that point about how much it cost and how much stuff cost before... is an ignorant statement to make. Why? It's simply not accounting for the ridiculous rise in chip costs. eg.
- 28nm (PS4) = $3K/wafer
- 16nm (PS4pro) = $6k/Wafer
- 7nm (PS5) = $10K+/Wafer
- 4nm (PS5pro) = $18k - $20k+/Wafer
And somehow, you expect prices to remain the same? How is that even possible? The same size chip, on a PS5pro vs a PS4 (~300mm2) will literally cost 6x+ more money. So how in the world would you suggest that they give you the kinda gains you are expecting, without being smart about things?
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hinch7
Member
If they gave it a better CPU you might have seen more modes with 120fps options instead. And games from locked at 30 to 60+. Which would've been really nice.
I guess that will take away the sheen from PS6, or next gen whenever that releases.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I didn't get anywhere from his post that he expects prices to remain the same. He's arguing the Xbox One X was a bigger jump in power and it arguably was. Problem was, of course, that it stayed stuck at 30fps anyway. However, games often went from sub-1080p to 1800p-4K, which was an enormous jump. The price increase was also comparatively smaller.
For what it's worth, I don't care all that much about resolution if I'm still forced to play at 30fps anyway. I sooner would have taken 1080p/60 over 4K30. Whether the Xbox One X was a more satisfying upgrade than the Pro is a different matter...but the Pro also upgrades from a much better and balanced console than the X1 so...
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Ohhhh... he did.
He said all those gains of the One X and PS4pro, were made while still being at the base consoles' launch prices. I was simply pointing out why that was something they could do then but not now.
And of course, the price increase then was comparatively smaller... I think I just showed why that was?
Now this is a different matter. And we are hovering around subjectivity here. So I won't get into that. What value someone sees or takes from all of this is up to them... but if we are talking about numbers... there is not subjectiveness there.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
How did you get from that that he was expecting prices to remain the same? He states the upgrade was bigger all the while prices remained the same. That’s him pointing the cold hard truth. In your very case, you were expecting it to be $500. That’s expecting prices to remain the same.
Not sure whether Bojji expected it to be $500 or not, but saying that he was unreasonable with his price expectations based on these posts doesn’t seem correct since he didn’t call a price or even implied his expectations. Maybe in other posts he did, but not in this one.
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Radical_3d
Member
It’s not. But that’s not on Sony but because the speed and cost of technology nowadays. We’re in the sad part of the evolution. What happened to graphane?
Mr.Phoenix
Member
And in hindsight, that was very stupid of me. Because even I then was not taking into account how chip prices are going up. But what makes any of us here worth anything, is an ability to know when wrong on something, admit it, learn from it, and adjust. I have done that. In retrospect, it was really stuof me to have overlooked that... even when people like
Mibu no ookami
was screaming it form the rooftops. But when shit like this happens, the smart thing to do is take a step back and try and understand why.And all I am pointing out to him saying that, while its a factual statement to make, there are (as I said) mitigating factors to consider as to why what happened or worked then, simply wouldn't work now.
I don't get how you don't see it here... but he was clearly using the previous gen upgrades and their price in relation to the launch versions to point out how with the PS5pro we arent even getting those kinda physical gains and yet the price is higher.
And that is a wholeheartedly unreasonable thing to say (even if its true) and I have shown why.
Like come on, some people... and this is what I think whenever I see them do it... talk like if sony could throw in a 490 class GPU and a 5800X3D CPU in there and make a system for under $500 they wouldn't have done it. Whereas, Sony's single biggest issue, every single time they make a console, is how they can get the most power into the smallest upfront cost. And that problem, is becoming increasingly difficult to solve at a $500ish pricepoint.
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SweetTooth
Gold Member
Beautifully worded response. Thank you
Rudius
Member
MountaingateWay worse mountain water reflections wtf!?
Rudius
Member
I don''t get itLmfao
Lysandros
Member
Isn't PS5 PRO a 2 SE design just like PS5 based on the leaks? PS5 has 64 physical (active) color ROPs. If those ROPs gained RDNA2/3 double issue feature now this would essentially double the max theoretical (color) fill rate (though there is no now way enough bandwidth make full use of them just like PS4 PRO situation). If there is no change in ROP architecture, then the fill rate figure would stay the same as PS5, albeit it will exceed it somewhat in practical scenarios due to bandwidth increase. As to depth ROPs their number/theoretical throughput will remain essentially the same between the systems no matter which scenario. At the end we need more info/confirmation to settle PS5 PRO fill rate figure with certainty. Even the clock speed remains officially undisclosed as for now.
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saintjules
Gold Member
24:45
TheRedRiders
Member
Completely agree, it was one of my gripes with the videos - I was just thinking "like who the hell is going to notice this!?" - but I guess that's Digital Foundry's bread and butter in recent years.
Bojji
Member
Oh I know about this stuff, all electronics are going up in recent years thanks to TSMC (basically) monopoly and all around world inflation. But we have discussed Pro for months now and MANY people expected it to launch at the same price as PS5, including you as
Gaiff
have said. I said that this thing will be 600$+ based on normal PS5 price (it didn't drop at all since 2020, quite the opposite). And now you say that I'm surprised by price and no one expected 500$ console? Give me a break. Fans of this console just adjusted their narrative when Sony proved them wrong.What I truly didn't expect is lack of disc drive - this fucking drives me nuts, otherwise I would change my PS5 to this console. Now I will wait for some good deals (or used machines), there aren't many good games announced from Sony on the horizon so I have a lot of time.
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Cornbread78
Member
Bruh:I don''t get it
Italian senate meeting interrupted by Final Fantasy hentai
An interloper got on the virtual meet and played the video.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
saintjules
Gold Member
Bruh:
Italian senate meeting interrupted by Final Fantasy hentai
An interloper got on the virtual meet and played the video.www.pcgamer.com
That video is hilarious.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Well, I won't be Bojji's mouthpiece because he can speak for himself. I'm saying that someone pointing that prices were better in the past doesn't mean that they expected prices to remain the same. I mean, I and many others are constantly complaining about GPU prices and all longed the old days when they were more affordable, but you ain't gonna catch any of us expect that prices will return to what they were in 2016. We're very much aware of the current situation, but we can still say that prices are worse than ever before.And in hindsight, that was very stupid of me. Because even I then was not taking into account how chip prices are going up. But what makes any of us here worth anything, is an ability to know when wrong on something, admit it, learn from it, and adjust. I have done that. In retrospect, it was really stuof me to have overlooked that... even when people like
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
As I said many times already, yes I was one of those advocating for the price to be between $50-$600. Also was saying it won't come with a disc drive. But I was wrong because I didn't fact in then exactly what I am saying to you now. Not even that I didn't know it, I just didn't think about it. Sono narratives has changed, I just gave it a proper think and arrived at the why. We all speculated on price, some of us got it wrong, few goit right. Its not changing a narrative if you simply learn from those that figured it out before it was announced.Oh I know about this stuff, all electronics are going up in recent years thanks to TSMC (basically) monopoly and all around world inflation. But we have discussed Pro for months now and MANY people expected it to launch at the same price as PS5, including you as
What I truly didn't expect is lack of disc drive - this fucking drives me nuts, otherwise I would change my PS5 to this console. Now I will wait for some good deals (or used machines), there aren't many good games announced from Sony on the horizon so I have a lot of time.
I saw the disc drive thing coming the second they released the PS5Slim.
Yes, I'm assuming the Pro has more ROPs vs the base PS5 and I'm going off only paper specs without accounting architectural improvements, which may skew the paper specs between each machine.
Bojji
Member
Everyone is wrong about things, those Pro speculation threads were fun!
I expected price around what it is but didn't expect massive difference between regions and lack of disk drive.
The best thing is that I internally was like: "maybe they are right with that 500$, it's a console after all and most of the time they sold these things at loss". But Sony really fucking dropped the bomb...
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
I always try to not only tell the truth but give a well reasoned analysis. I'm not always favored for it.
The reality is that the PS5 Pro could have been more than 700. The GPU alone might have cost us an extra 100 dollars. If people were honest with themselves, they'd admit the individual features are worth more than what's being offered here. No one would say take one of these away for 50 dollars. I think the pricing is good for business and good for consumers.
Even without AI upscaling, we're still getting games boosted by the increased GPU. Any game with variable resolution or refresh rate is going to be instantly stabilized...
Newly built games will be built with the PS5 Pro in mind and we should get games with raytracing that really make a visual difference. We're already seeing that in Hogwarts Legacy, a game that I've waited to play on PS5 Pro.
I strategically waited to play a lot of games on PS5 Pro adding them to my backlog rather than playing them first.
- Costs have absolutely been going up for companies like Sony. Many people think they were making money on the PS5 but they've still been losing
- CFO Totoki (chairman) wants SIE to drive better margins, you can easily look up his history and his mentality
- SIE is in a dangerous position despite being marketing leader in consoles. You can see parallels to their position in the film/tv industry
- They have not cut the price of the PS5 and have signaled it wouldn't be cut this year
- They raised the price in Japan
- Soft leaks showed that the PS5 Pro could have no disc drive and devkits showed having 2TB
- PS4 Pro also had a bigger drive than the basic PS4
- 1TB is not enough to play CoD and GTA6
- Sony probably wished the PS5 were 550 at the minimum, but the PR hit isn't worth raising the price in the US. You'd have to raise it to 600 and then you'd be right back to the PS3 360 situation and you might really risk people jumping ship to XSX for GTA6 if they dropped the price to say 400 dollars.
- Sony needed to get their margins on the PS5 Pro
- Extra 1TB suggests a minimum of a 100 dollar increase
- Beefier GPU suggests a minimum of a 50 dollar increase
- Least of all to mention the 10% clock increase for the CPU for the rare games that need a bit more stabilization due to CPU constraints
- AI Upscaling suggests a minimum of a 50 dollar increase
- Dedicated RTX suggests a minimum of a 50 dollar increase
The reality is that the PS5 Pro could have been more than 700. The GPU alone might have cost us an extra 100 dollars. If people were honest with themselves, they'd admit the individual features are worth more than what's being offered here. No one would say take one of these away for 50 dollars. I think the pricing is good for business and good for consumers.
Even without AI upscaling, we're still getting games boosted by the increased GPU. Any game with variable resolution or refresh rate is going to be instantly stabilized...
Newly built games will be built with the PS5 Pro in mind and we should get games with raytracing that really make a visual difference. We're already seeing that in Hogwarts Legacy, a game that I've waited to play on PS5 Pro.
I strategically waited to play a lot of games on PS5 Pro adding them to my backlog rather than playing them first.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Even this I have tried to understand it, and can only come up with the whole VAT thing, but how does that explain how the base model is "number matched" across regions?
I didn't just not see $700 coming, I also didn't even think it was possible. The only way it makes sense to me, even after factoring in that components may be more expensive now, is that sony wants to desensitize people to the idea of a $600+ console, and the best time to do that is now and with something like a PS5pro.
f they get people to accept that ok, the best PS5 costs $700 and that's just the way it is... then when announcing PS at $700... it won't shock anyone anymore. Hell, they can even announce it at $600 now and people will say its cheap.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Spoke to 2 friends both were keen on the Pro before the reveal. Both soured on it after the price and reveal and were on the fence.
Now they've both watched the Rebirth comparison and are getting one before the year is out.
Sony definitely did a bad job marketing this and really should have worked in advance with someone like DF to bring out 3rd party comparisons straight from the reveal.
Now they've both watched the Rebirth comparison and are getting one before the year is out.
Sony definitely did a bad job marketing this and really should have worked in advance with someone like DF to bring out 3rd party comparisons straight from the reveal.
Cerny explained things pretty clearly and with many different examples.
It's just the price talk that ruined the reception.
Once that is digested it's normal that the focus will go back to understanding what it can do with clear mind.
Not that it will make things cheaper but it's also clear that PSRR will be a game changer for 60fps modes.
Next week we should get more details and footage, also from GT7, I wouldn't be surprised if Kojima goes with "running on PS5 Pro" with his next DS2 trailer or already talks about it.
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sachos
Member
Yeah i think Oliver downplayed the difference there a little calling it "similarly good" "comparable visuals". Its way easier to notice how much sharper the Pro is over Quality Mode on PS5 than to notice the temporal instability. Maybe its easier to see on his TV.
saintjules
Gold Member
Confirming that there will be modes on the Pro? Kind of expected as DF suspected that would happen.
Oh and yeah some minor spoilers there in that tweet if you haven't played it or got far into the game.
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We now have confirmation that PSSR is being used.
“Final Fantasy VII Rebirth is now able to evolve to the next level by utilizing the new architecture and superior hardware power of PS5 Pro. The new Enhanced Mode* developed especially for PS5 Pro combines the characteristics of the existing Performance Mode and Graphics Mode to offer players a new visual experience.
Specifically, Enhanced mode runs at a frame rate of 60 FPS and supports PSSR to achieve a resolution on par with that of Graphics Mode (mode names under development and subject to change).
These visual enhancements result in even richer rendering for all aspects of the game, including the world, the combat and the cut scenes, taking player immersion even further. We invite you to experience an even more thrilling, even more beautiful Final Fantasy VII Rebirth with PS5 Pro.”
– Naoki Hamaguchi, Director / Square Enix
PS5 Pro: Developers share how they’re using new tech to enhance their games
https://blog.playstation.com/2024/09/24/ps5-pro-developers-share-how-theyre-using-new-tech-to-enhance-their-games/ Earlier this month, we revealed the PlayStation 5 Pro console and how dozens of games will take advantage of its powerful hardware capabilities when it launches November 7. Today...
PaintTinJr
Member
We now have confirmation that PSSR is being used.
“Final Fantasy VII Rebirth is now able to evolve to the next level by utilizing the new architecture and superior hardware power of PS5 Pro. The new Enhanced Mode* developed especially for PS5 Pro combines the characteristics of the existing Performance Mode and Graphics Mode to offer players a new visual experience.
Specifically, Enhanced mode runs at a frame rate of 60 FPS and supports PSSR to achieve a resolution on par with that of Graphics Mode (mode names under development and subject to change).
These visual enhancements result in even richer rendering for all aspects of the game, including the world, the combat and the cut scenes, taking player immersion even further. We invite you to experience an even more thrilling, even more beautiful Final Fantasy VII Rebirth with PS5 Pro.”
– Naoki Hamaguchi, Director / Square Enix
PS5 Pro: Developers share how they’re using new tech to enhance their games
https://blog.playstation.com/2024/09/24/ps5-pro-developers-share-how-theyre-using-new-tech-to-enhance-their-games/ Earlier this month, we revealed the PlayStation 5 Pro console and how dozens of games will take advantage of its powerful hardware capabilities when it launches November 7. Today...www.neogaf.com
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