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Did Microsoft deliberately MURDER the Sega Dreamcast by BRIBING/POUCHING Tirrd Party studios? (Kagey K, GET ITT!!!)
- Thread starter MiyazakiHatesKojima
- Start date
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ph33rknot
Banned
Never used it
Sid Of Bee
Member
Windows CE - Sega Retro
segaretro.org
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
This thread took a rather weird turn....
Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
At least they're not talking about cummies
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Sid Of Bee
Member
Windows CE - Sega Retro
Great contributionAt least they're not talking about cummies
Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
Get used to it
Kagey K
Banned
It has equal or greater value then some of the posts lately.
Team Andromeda
Member
Let's blame EA. LOL
Team Andromeda
Member
There is no point in even trying to debate with someone like you, How I doubt ever had any of the systems you call garbage and is just looking to flamebait
Team Andromeda
Member
Yes the OG XBox really feels like a SEGA Dreamcast II and IMO it's also the system that got the best out of SEGA since they left the console market (even now) Orta, SEGA GT 2002, OutRun II, JSRF are incredible, even their games on the Xbox Arcade board were great too
REDRZA MWS
Member
Pretty sure it had something to do with the PS2 being the best selling console of all time, no EA Sports on Dreamcast, and lack of other 3rd party big titles.
but let’s blame MS
but let’s blame MS
Phunkydiabetic
Banned
Haha what is this? Bro I'm 37, I grew up with all these systems. As a 10 year old in the early 90s I was a prime candidate for Segas edgelord advertising and marketing. And it worked. The Genesis was an awesome machine. The Sega CD was shit. Sorry bro, a random smattering of decent games doesn't negate the high amount of shit on that overpriced addon. It was shit. I had a Sega CD well after launch, when it had "established" (if you could even call it that) a bit of games. And guess what, it was terrible and nowhere near worth the $300 it cost.
The 32x? I can't honestly believe you are attempting to defend the 32x. Are you? I got a 32x a few months after launch, it still remains as probably the worst videogame related purchase I have ever made. I had saved for half of the cost with a paper route and my parents covered the other half. And guess what, I still felt ripped off. Like what....3 or 4 games even worth purchasing? Fuckin garbage.
And the Saturn...woo boy the Saturn. I know it has its little legion of hardcore fans and all that, but when you put it into the perspective during that time it was an utter disappointment. Sure it managed to at least have a bit more decent games than the 32x and Sega CD but when compared to the PS1 it was a joke. Even standing next to the N64 it was a joke. At that point in time the majority of Sega's in house releases were bullshit ports of arcade games. Arcade games that were meant to be played for 10 or 15 minutes. So you've got these ports that are padded out with nonsense but in the end they are just arcade games. Thankfully there were a handful 3rd party devs who picked up Segas embarrassing slack but it just wasnt enough. Even Sega's original ip's like Panzer Dragoon were weak compared to the competition. I ended up trading my Saturn to a friend for his PS1 cause he was one of those fuckin Sega weebs back in the day. He was irritated his parents bought him a PS1 instead of a Saturn cause it was $100 cheaper. And guess what? 6 months later he let me know how much he hated the Saturn and regretted the trade (I ended up swapping the systems back with him and selling the Saturn).
Sega had games like Panzer Dragoon, Daytona USA, Virtua Cop, Virtua Fighter
Nintendo had Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, Wave Race 64, Smash Bros
Sony had Gran Turismo, Destruction Derby, Crash Bandicoot, Syphon Filter, Spyro
The Saturn was a design nightmare. Even the ports from the other systems were mediocre. It was designed around 2d gaming when the rest of the world was moving on to 3d, it cost more etc etc i could go on and on. While it was better than the previous two abominations it was still a complete and utter let down when compared to what else was happening at the time. The thing was on sale for what? 3 or 4 years before Sega unceremoniously dumped it?
Their main strategy for the Dreamcast was "release it before the competitors to try and gain a foothold" which failed spectacularly in the end.
I get it, you appear to be some uber Sega fanboy so it is hard to hear but the truth is, after the Genesis Sega was an absolute shitshow cavalcade of disappointment punctuated by the odd show of brilliance. I lived through that era. I owned all the systems in question (Genesis/Sega CD, 32x, Saturn, Dreamcast). I am well versed in what happened as I went through it all.
It was incredibly disheartening to see Sega fall the way they did but they have absolutely no one to blame but themselves. Poor management. Shit decisions. Lame games. The Dreamcast is the one that hurts the most because the hardware was fantastic and really forward thinking BUT, and here is where we circle back to your biggest point of contention despite it being true, it was too little too late. By then people were sick of Sega's shit and had moved on to the vastly superior options available.
But hey, you can choose to assume that I have zero first hand experience on any of this if it helps you feel better I guess. I dont understand fanboyism, I just assume the people who get all crazy defensive about their piece of plastic are children or something I dunno. I have enough going on in my life that I dont need to add on "defending my videogame console to the death online" to my resume. What I can do however is lay out my personal experiences with these devices, like i have here. For the most part post Genesis Sega was shit bro sorry.
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cireza
Member
Rarely read so much shit in a single post honestly.
And you ended up being part of the community you really deserved
Hope you mean it.
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Phunkydiabetic
Banned
You could attempt to form a cohesive rebuttal if you'd like. I am honestly interested in how you think an on rails shooter that can be finished in a few hours like Panzer can hold a candle to the first party offerings from Nintendo and Sega at the time. Also interested in hearing about these other 32x games you feel were good enough to make my point invalid.
Everyone knows by now the Saturn architecture wasnt designed to handle 3d as easily as the N64 and PS1, so what was it about my quoted comment that could be considered "shit"?
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But now, if you guys want to know the reasons why Sega left (which almost everyone knows)
1) Sega of Japan and America constant fightings, SoJ was jealous that most of the Genesis sucess was due to Sega of America operations that was also in Europe, so they had the Saturn with a push towards the japanese market but disdained the rest of the world, the over complicated hardware was great for 2D which was still something huge there.
Tom Kalinske, the man responsible for making Sega as a big brand in console market, was being snubbed by Sega of Japan superiors over the Saturn planning for the west, the console was released at surprise in E3 95 without the knowledge of many retailers and developers, and that's because the original inteded date was in September 2, 1995 (Saturnday), this led to major retailers boycott as they didn't receive the console, and Kalinske would leave the company in a matter of months.
2) Saturn hardware was a mess to be developed with, as the design had flaws, including the infamous dithering transparency and the VDPs that couldn't acess the memory together. In order to have the better performance, you really had to use Assembly language which was harder to code. The best games on Saturn were 2D for its hardware, especially with the expansion cartridges, but the 3D took over day 1 one over the majority of software sales worldwide, so Sega had pleased its own home market in detriment of the rest of the world that represented +70%.
3) Bernie Stolar, I know many fans hate him, indeed made a mistake over not liking 2D games, but as I've said on the previous paragraph, 3D took over, and if there was a genie who could grant wishes over a condition, having all 3D games over the 2D would have granted the Saturn second place, considering its CD media and the fact that developers liked Sega more than Nintendo on licenses.
In a ArcadeAttack interview, Stolar says that he only accepted to be the president of SoA if he could order a new console because he knew what happened during Kalinske tenure with Saturn, Hayao Nakayama accepted it. In fall 96/January 97, Stolar ordered the new console, but Sega couldn't keep funding the Saturn for US and EU in 98, so they stopped selling a year and half before releasing the Dreamcast there, this killed the entire reputation of the company as the DC never had bigger sales than the PS1 in the same period. I believe he ordered the Dreamcast to get rid of SoJ meddlings after the Sonic X-treme fiasco (The coffin in the nail was Yuji Naka ordering STI to not use his Nights engine, threatening to leave the company).
Also, he says that the Dreamcast release in 99 in the west was almost botched, SEGA then CEO, Isao Okawa, wanted the DC to be released in 2000 only by internet, Stolar had to fought to keep the planned marketing and the 9/9/99 release date and he did it, but got fired just a few weeks before the release.
4) Lack of support from giant publishers like EA. Stolar had just bought Visual Concepts who developed the acclaimed 2K Sports titles when Larry Prosbt showed EA upper hand to say that the company would only support the Dreamcast if they were the sole publisher-developer of sports games for the console, something that Stolar refused and the console missed all their games (and we are talking about back when EA was releasing many great games).
1) Sega of Japan and America constant fightings, SoJ was jealous that most of the Genesis sucess was due to Sega of America operations that was also in Europe, so they had the Saturn with a push towards the japanese market but disdained the rest of the world, the over complicated hardware was great for 2D which was still something huge there.
Tom Kalinske, the man responsible for making Sega as a big brand in console market, was being snubbed by Sega of Japan superiors over the Saturn planning for the west, the console was released at surprise in E3 95 without the knowledge of many retailers and developers, and that's because the original inteded date was in September 2, 1995 (Saturnday), this led to major retailers boycott as they didn't receive the console, and Kalinske would leave the company in a matter of months.
2) Saturn hardware was a mess to be developed with, as the design had flaws, including the infamous dithering transparency and the VDPs that couldn't acess the memory together. In order to have the better performance, you really had to use Assembly language which was harder to code. The best games on Saturn were 2D for its hardware, especially with the expansion cartridges, but the 3D took over day 1 one over the majority of software sales worldwide, so Sega had pleased its own home market in detriment of the rest of the world that represented +70%.
3) Bernie Stolar, I know many fans hate him, indeed made a mistake over not liking 2D games, but as I've said on the previous paragraph, 3D took over, and if there was a genie who could grant wishes over a condition, having all 3D games over the 2D would have granted the Saturn second place, considering its CD media and the fact that developers liked Sega more than Nintendo on licenses.
In a ArcadeAttack interview, Stolar says that he only accepted to be the president of SoA if he could order a new console because he knew what happened during Kalinske tenure with Saturn, Hayao Nakayama accepted it. In fall 96/January 97, Stolar ordered the new console, but Sega couldn't keep funding the Saturn for US and EU in 98, so they stopped selling a year and half before releasing the Dreamcast there, this killed the entire reputation of the company as the DC never had bigger sales than the PS1 in the same period. I believe he ordered the Dreamcast to get rid of SoJ meddlings after the Sonic X-treme fiasco (The coffin in the nail was Yuji Naka ordering STI to not use his Nights engine, threatening to leave the company).
Also, he says that the Dreamcast release in 99 in the west was almost botched, SEGA then CEO, Isao Okawa, wanted the DC to be released in 2000 only by internet, Stolar had to fought to keep the planned marketing and the 9/9/99 release date and he did it, but got fired just a few weeks before the release.
4) Lack of support from giant publishers like EA. Stolar had just bought Visual Concepts who developed the acclaimed 2K Sports titles when Larry Prosbt showed EA upper hand to say that the company would only support the Dreamcast if they were the sole publisher-developer of sports games for the console, something that Stolar refused and the console missed all their games (and we are talking about back when EA was releasing many great games).
cireza
Member
Saturn was designed to handle 3D just as much as it was designed to handle 2D. It had the necessary hardware elements to achieve both, it was not designed "primarily" for 2D. The way it achieves its graphics is different than PS1 as two display processors are necessary, and the primitive for 3D was rectangles instead of triangles (they made a choice, it was not the one that was kept for the future, but it was still an early age for 3D).
Rather than making a console exclusively designed for 3D (and forcing every developer to go the 3D route like Sony and N64 did), Sega decided to have hardware for 2D as well. I think it was a logical decision back then, while the world was transitioning from 2D to 3D to offer both possibilities. PS1 despite being not made for 2D still had a lot of developers circumventing the design to achieve 2D anyway, which is much worse in my opinion.
The 32X has clearly more than 3/4 good games. I bought one back then and never regretting it, and still play it every once in a while. Just as the Sega-CD is not shit, but actually a pretty awesome machine with great games. And finally, the Saturn is definitely at the same level as PS1 and N64, and has many very impressive games you can't dream of having on the other consoles. Games that use the strengths of the console. Funny that you talk about Panzer Dragoon as this is one game you can't make on the other consoles as they can't handle the infinite planes like the Saturn.
I actually replay Panzer Dragoons games very often, these games are made to be replayable, challenging and fun. Not fast-food game-design. But this argument is pointless anyway.
Overall, your post is full of hate, bad faith and ignorance. All of this is unnecessary here.
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Phunkydiabetic
Banned
No, the original Saturn design was based around some sort of 32bit two dimension uber system. Sega completely misread where the market was heading, this stuff has been discussed many times over the decades since. The Saturn design was pretty much finished when they heard of the specs for the PS1 which prompted Sega to haphazardly slap in another processor to help stay competitive. You can't just go and retcon what has happened to fit your narrative man come on.
I agree, at the time it was a logical decision to move forward focusing on the 2d direction especially since they started early development in like 1992. Unfortunately it was the wrong decision as history has shown us. I'm not sure how you can say developers circumventing the design to achieve 2d is "much worse", especially considering the immense success PS1 had and the amount of awesome 2d games available.
You havent listed any of these supposedly awesome games though? For me I'd consider Knuckles Chaotix to be probably the systems best exclusive. Star Wars Arcade would be another good game. Virtua Fighting and Virtua Racing round out the other games in my list of 4. Notice how three of those four games are just arcade ports? Which goes back to what I was saying previously?
Other than that the rest of the games are absolute shit exclusives like Cosmic Carnage or Metzl Head or slightly enhanced ports of games you can find on other systems. Even the port for Doom was fuckin botched. Only two of the three episodes. No big 9000. No cyberdemon or spiderdemon. It didnt even have a save file system ffs. You may have enjoyed the games, even Panzer Dragoon and that's fine. It is all subjective, I like some games people consider shitty too. But to say with a straight face that the "Saturn is on the same level as the PS1" is lunacy.
My post isn't full of "hate". It is full of disappointment. Disappointment that Sega would piss away all the gains it had made through arcade -> Master System -> Genesis. They were in a fantastic position and managed to destroy it all in less than a decade with some of the worst business and technical decisions the industry has ever seen. I am calling it like I saw and lived it.
As for my replies being in bad faith, not sure how you came to that conclusion but ok. And nothing I've said came from evidence. Feel free to fact check everything if you feel.
Azelover
Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
It's not fair to blame it all on one thing.
A lot of things contributed to it. First Sega itself, and their track record by that point. Then there was the PS2, which had an insane hype, and all the features people wanted. PS1 BC, DVD playback. Freaking Tekken, Ridge Racer and more within the launch window. And then there was Microsoft and Nintendo coming with their systems right around the corner.
A single thing by itself didn't kill the Dreamcast.. Actually, if there was one thing that did it was Sega's finances. That's what really forced them to quit. If they were breaking even, things would have been different.
A lot of things contributed to it. First Sega itself, and their track record by that point. Then there was the PS2, which had an insane hype, and all the features people wanted. PS1 BC, DVD playback. Freaking Tekken, Ridge Racer and more within the launch window. And then there was Microsoft and Nintendo coming with their systems right around the corner.
A single thing by itself didn't kill the Dreamcast.. Actually, if there was one thing that did it was Sega's finances. That's what really forced them to quit. If they were breaking even, things would have been different.
Team Andromeda
Member
As I said, I've no desire to debate with you and your obvious flame baits.
ManaByte
Member
It wasn’t just the design they were circumventing, but SCEA as well who had the ”no 2D rule“ for publishers.
Hell most people don’t know that SCEA rejected Castlevania: SOTN in the US. If Konami didn’t hold the US release of MGS hostage over it, we never would’ve played SOTN here.
cireza
Member
Yes, same thing happened with Megaman games and Capcom threatened to not release Resident Evil 2.
Team Andromeda
Member
What utter rubbish. You do know that SEGA America set up the Away Team in 93 for Saturn development and in fact, SEGA America was the 1st to show off the console in the CES of January of 1994. BTW Tom didn't make SEGA, Yu Suzuki and Sonic did far more and actually SEGA Europe did far better than either SEGA Japan or America with the Mega Drive being number one in Europe and selling double that of the Snes in Europe.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Phunkydiabetic
See, there's some things in your post I definitely agree with. I, too, find it very hard to defend the 32X. 32X was just a mistake all around, aside from the literal handful of good games up there like Virtua Racing, Tempo etc. And the SEGA CD, I wouldn't say it was actually a bad add-on (nor would I say it hurt SEGA at the time), but SoA definitely marketed it the wrong way in America, pushing all those crappy FMV games that came off as cool because of the novelty of FMV in a videogame at that time.Now, the Saturn was a complexly designed system, but so were the PS2 and PS3. The complexity wasn't the problem; the lack of suitable SDKs to make things easier for developers was the real problem. It took until late 1995 for SEGA's 1st parties to develop the SGL to a solid spec, and until 1996 to start getting that out to 3rd parties. Publishers wanted tighter and tighter (possibly unrealistic) development times for games. Saturn actually had documentation for all its hardware from Day 1, but developers were being pushed to finish games faster, which meant less time to learn the hardware and program in assembly.
The Saturn games? Okay, they did put out some duds; some of the SEGA Sports games were pretty weak, and pushing stuff like Virtua Fighter in the American market (knowing full well it didn't have the reach to American gamers the way a new Eternal Champions would've had, or a Streets of Rage fighting game even) was just them being stubborn. But the system had a lot of great games usually let down by poor marketing on SEGA's behalf. Panzer Dragoon Saga is a perfect example; super-limited print run, and outright making fun of fans in adverts who couldn't find a copy. Terrible marketing at a time when the system and fanbase didn't need that shit.
Speaking of Panzer Dragoon, I get if it's not your cup of tea but there honestly were no rail shooters like it that entire generation. The closets to Panzer Dragoon Zwei's quality were Star Fox 64, Sin and Punishment, and Omega Boost, but Omega Boost had shallower gameplay, while Sin & Punishment had less content. And preference between PD Zwei and SF64 comes down mainly to artistic/stylistic tastes. But that series was one of the premier IPs for artistry in the industry at the time and they're looked upon very fondly to this day, especially Zwei and Saga.
They had other quality games too like Daytona USA (uglier than Ridge Racer but it had better controls), NiGHTS (unique game, certainly comparable to games like Klonoa and Pandemonium but having deeper game mechanics), etc. I think calling them "arcade games" is a prejorative is missing the point. TONS of games that gen, especially in the earlier years, were essentially "arcade" games but either developed for a home console, or were arcade ports with home content thrown in extra. Toshinden, Ridge Racer, Tobal, Loaded!, Rage Racer, Cruis'n USA, Tekken, UMK3, etc.,...that stuff applies to all those games. Even games like Resident Evil, when you analyze their structure, they carry over a LOT of game concepts and mechanics introduced in arcades. Arcade game concepts and design elements are at the root of almost all games outside of maybe some genres heavily tied to PCs/micro computers like point-and-click games, and even a lot of those from back in the day had scoring systems
Another misconception with that thought is that the games are only meant to be played once. Games like NiGHTS weren't designed as one-and-done games; they're intended for players to play repeatedly so that they can improve their skills and master the game mechanics. They are highly skill-orientated games, the bulk of their content and substance comes out of mastering skills in the game. In fact if you strip away all the pretty graphics in a lot of modern games, and things that add "presence" but aren't really vital to the gameplay like complex grass physics, AND you strip away the illusion of choice many of them give (i.e they'll give you a hundred items to use in a situation but only two or three are even effective so why the illusion of choice?), and a lot of those "arcade games", particularly from the '90s onward, actually have deeper game mechanics than some of today's big-budget AAA games!!!
More specifically on the Dreamcast, I do agree that they made a mistake releasing it so early. Instead of abandoning the Saturn, they should've salvaged it similar to how Sony salvaged the PS3 in its last few years. Leaving Saturn (and by extension, SEGA) with no retail presence for almost a year was just b a d! Can't slice it any other way than that. Really damaged tons of remaining goodwill with not just SEGA's fanbase, but also retailers and certain key publishers like EA (speaking of which, another b a d business decision was SEGA not scrapping their sports lineup so that EA could have exclusivity with sports on Dreamcast. I get that they wanted to use the investments in Visual Concepts, but they could've at least shifted them to something aside of sports games).
Delaying Dreamcast to 1999 while keeping '98 Saturn titles coming across all territories (including bigger prints for PD Saga, Burning Rangers, Deep Fear etc. and maybe shifting at least the first Shenmue release to Saturn instead of Dreamcast) and pushing for translations of key Japanese games for Western territories, even fostering stronger partnership with 3rd parties like Capcom and Konami to develop specialized ports of RE2 and MGS for Saturn...would've gone a far way to generating better goodwill to the brand. It would've also given them time to implement DVD in the Dreamcast and have somewhat stronger specifications, and probably still include the modem as well while remaining price-competitive with PS2 (even if it would've meant a $250-$299 Dreamcast instead of the $199 original launch price).
But alas, that didn't come to pass, and this is the timeline we're in now. So for sure, MS, Sony, Nintendo...they all made moves during that '94-'01 period that hurt SEGA, but they were basically picking apart SEGA's own self-inflicted wounds. Ultimately, SEGA are the ones responsible for them leaving the market as a platform maker and going 3rd-party. But, the reasons are usually a lot more complicated than I think some people give them credit for.
Team Andromeda
At the end of the day, SoA were the ones who pushed Genesis to sell the most in its most dominant market. They had the most effective marketing, certainly much more effective than SEGA of Japan's, where MegaDrive came in third even behind NEC's PC-Engine in that country.I don't think you can dismiss SoA's role in making the Genesis as successful as it was; SEGA of Europe did a very good job for MegaDrive in that market but the console market in Europe was smaller than both NA's and Japan's.
Also while MegaDrive outsold SNES in Europe overall there were some European countries where SNES outsold MegaDrive, and MegaDrive/SNES was a closer battle than Master System/NES in the European market so I kind of have a hard time believing MegaDrive outsold SNES over 2:1 in Europe as a whole.
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Rean no Kiseki
Banned
Sega killed Sega.
End of story.
End of story.
diffusionx
Gold Member
I didn't have a Genesis, but I dunno, I thought the Sega CD was really cool, had lots of good games, and sold pretty well. I also can't blame Sega for releasing a CD add-on as that was one thing everyone was doing, and the benefits of CD was really obvious. The Sega CD also came out in the US in 1992, which basically made it a "mid-cycle" thing, not unlike the PS4 Pro or whatever - and also it was three years before the Saturn.
For my money, the problem was the 32X. They really should have canceled it. I think that retroactively made the Sega CD look worse, and also added so much confusion when it came to Saturn. And Sega's mistakes with the Saturn were super obvious throughout - I think the system could have done better had they launched it in September 1995 after a proper ad campaign and distribution, launched it cheaper (lesson for today), and actually released some of the great Japanese games over time. At a time when JRPG was the biggest genre, not getting Grandia and the full Shining Force 3 in the US is shameful.
All I know though, is that every kid who bought a Saturn because he liked the Genesis, but had to get a PS1 by 1997 because Saturn was functionally dead, was NEVER getting back on board with Sega. And that's kind of how it played out.
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What utter rubbish. You do know that SEGA America set up the Away Team in 93 for Saturn development and in fact, SEGA America was the 1st to show off the console in the CES of January of 1994. BTW Tom didn't make SEGA, Yu Suzuki and Sonic did far more and actually SEGA Europe did far better than either SEGA Japan or America with the Mega Drive being number one in Europe and selling double that of the Snes in Europe.
Lolwut, no I didn't know about CES, what I've said was the release date, not the reveal, Saturn was meant to be released on September 2,1995 with +15 (IIRC) software from first and third party available, but then SoJ forced the console to be released as a surprise at E3 95 in May and it only had three games.
I don't know what was with the Away Team, but that doesn't mean shit couldn't have happened in a span or 1 year and months, the console hardware was designed for 2D while the 3D was an aftertought.
Tom and the guys made a strong marketing for the console and friendly policies for developers that allowed them to get plenty of third party support and uncensored games like Mortal Kombat, Sonic was also one the key reasons of its sucess by also being included in new console units. In Europe, the Master System was a reasonable sucess, and Sega made a stronger presence and support from European developers with Genesis/Mega Drive as they decided to buy the operations from Virgin in 1991, who sold the previous console.
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Phunkydiabetic
Banned
The saddest part about the "surprise" launch is there were no new games released in the time period between then and when it was originally supposed to launch. So.....a summer of launch titles and nothing else. Just so incredibly I'll conceived.
You are correct about what Tom Kalinske and the American team managed to do for Sega, they managed to do some incredibly ingenious marketing and really hustled to get the market share Genesis eventually had in America. I'd go as far as to say that without the Sega of America team there was a good chance Sega wouldnt have even lasted as long as the Dreamcast, possibly even the Saturn.
I highly suggest a book called Console Wars by Blake J. Harris. It is fantastic, quite long, but goes into much detail about the Tom Kalinske era of Sega and the back and forth with Nintendo. It is mind blowing just how inept the leadership at Sega of Japan was, especially during that time. The amount of times Sega of Japan tried to get in the way and meddle, sometimes almost outright sabotage, with Sega of America is frustrating to read.
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JAMMA
Last warning for console wars
Sega and MS had a partnership. The original Xbox was going to be the Dreamcast 2. Sega’s arcade board, The Chihiro, is literally Xbox hardware. Sega’s Xbox arcade hardware had great games like Outrun, House of the Dead III, crazy taxi high roller, Virtua Cop 3, etc.
All you Xbox haters are just ragging on the Dreamcast 2. Sega also gave Xbox exclusives like Panzer Dragoon Orta and more. Looks like it’s time to accept fate and join the true Sega successor, Xbox.
The Sega arcade board still Even has an Xbox AV out, lol.
All you Xbox haters are just ragging on the Dreamcast 2. Sega also gave Xbox exclusives like Panzer Dragoon Orta and more. Looks like it’s time to accept fate and join the true Sega successor, Xbox.
The Sega arcade board still Even has an Xbox AV out, lol.
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
Sega and MS had a partnership. The original Xbox was going to be the Dreamcast 2. Sega’s arcade board, The Chihiro, is literally Xbox hardware. Sega’s Xbox arcade hardware had great games like Outrun, House of the Dead III, crazy taxi high roller, Virtua Cop 3, etc.
All you Xbox haters are just ragging on the Dreamcast 2. Sega also gave Xbox exclusives like Panzer Dragoon Orta and more. Looks like it’s time to accept fate and join the true Sega successor, Xbox.
The Sega arcade board still Even has an Xbox AV out, lol.
/thread
Kazza
Member
I think this is a point that is often forgotten. To brand it a "failure" you first have to know what Sega's expectations were. I remember Tom Kalinski saying in a podcast that he wasn't disappointed with the system's sales. With it's more mature content and high price, is was always aimed at the burgeoning adult market, rather than the parents buying a console for their kid at Christmas. From what I've seen, the attach rate with the Megadrive was a bit under 10-1. Once this gen is over and the total sales of Pros and Xs is compared to base console sales, I wonder whether we will see a similar ratio? An even more apt comparison is PSVR. The highest figure I've seen for that is 5 million unit sold. Given the PS4s 100 million base, that gives a 20-1 attach rate. I doubt Sony considers it to be a failure, as they are apparently going ahead with PSVR2, just like Sega stuck with CD tech for the Saturn.
As a Mega CD owner at the time, I admit I was a little disappointed, as I thought of it as a successor to the MD. But disappointed doesn't mean I disliked it. It was a great system and still gave me experiences unavailable on the base MD, it's just that my expectations were too high.
While I enjoyed reading that book, it has to be kept in mind that its contents are primarily the result of interviews with SoA staff. I suspect a similar book written primarily using Japanese sources would give a very different perspective (and would be an equally good read).
Who would have thought that a drunken Friday night shitpost from
MiyazakiHatesKojima
would have resulted in such an interesting conversation
cireza
Member
I can't really compare factually, however I can definitely confirm that Sega in Europe was very good. Master System, Game Gear, MegaDrive all had great success here, and great support. Many games translated in several languages, including Landstalker, Soleil, Story of Thor, Light Crusader. All awesome adventure games. Nintendo was extremely lacking on this point, with Squarebeing absent and only a handful of Enix games making it here, which made the MegaDrive a great console for adventure games.
Saturn era was also pretty well handled here, they really brought the best they could. Great packaging (true for every Sega console and game) and the advertisments in the magazines were quite good. Sega Europe always was pretty great, they were definitely limited as they did not have full power to decide, however they transformed whatever they had to bring the best out of it, and they deserve much praise for this.
Many games were optimized for PAL on Saturn as well. And all consoles had true RGB SCART. Etc...
Team Andromeda
Member
You pedal the myth that the Saturn was somehow hidden from SEGA America when that is simply not the case. Also, you may bring up September 1995, what brilliant Saturn software came out in September 1995? So even if it did launch in September 1995 the launch sofwtare wouldn't have been much better. It was so clear SOA was just too focused and far too convinced the 32X and its Price, would win the day. The Saturn was always going to handle 3D graphics. The Saturn was far more powerful than the Mega Drive and even that could handle primitive 3D polygons, In EDGE issue 3, Core Design who already had Saturn spec's (so it wasn't hidden from Europe either) confirmed that the Saturn was going to be good (even before the forced redesign to counter the PS) You look at Alien Triolgy which only used one SH-2 and the VDP1 (the orgibal; basic spec of the Saturn) and that displayed decent 3D graphics far better than what the 16 bit systems could handle
Why do you all think that was down to TOM? . Mortal Kombat was only censored by Nintendo, no one else looked to make that move and if you mean having friendly policies like EA and Accolade being able to reverse engineer you console, then sure.
Also without Sonic, the Mega Drive would never have sold as well, but I will credit Tom with seeing the opportunity to make it a pack in-game and standing up to SOJ (so much for SOJ called the shots) Also unlike in America, SEGA Europe was never out sold by the Snes and that wasn't thanks to TOM, but slick cool marketing, good price and the likes of Sonic.
Sega America did wonders with the DC and Mega CD mind.
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Team Andromeda
Member
Facts were the Mega Drive outsold the Snes in Europe and SEGA had more market share. Yet hardly any credit is given to the work SEGA did with the Mega Drive in Europe. Long before SONY looked to take Wipeout to the Clubs, SEGA Europe was talking Mega Drive pods to the likes of Cathy Dennis concerts, was sponsoring major sporting events, like football and F1, looked to try and appeal to the more mature gamer (sadly most older men) with its slick adverts, had major TV and sports stars seen playing SEGA games with SEGA T-shirts
Not because of people like Tom, but thanks to the great work of people like Neil Alexander and more so SEGA Europe's PR man Simon Morris who went off to the help SONY
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Team Andromeda
Member
The Mega Drive outsold the Snes in Europe, You may bring up the likes of France, but that's like bringing up the UK and saying the 360 outsold the PS3 in Europe.
I know its hard to believe, but SEGA did better in Europe than Nintendo. SEGA Europe didn't need Tom, it just needed slick adverts, good software support and a game called SONIC. Sonic was such a smash in Pal land.
I'll credit SEGA America for doing great work with the Mega/SEGA CD (they made it a system worth owning) looking to set up development studios outside SEGA Japan and forward-thinking ideas like Sega Soft (working on consoles and PC's) and I even liked the idea of the Deep Water label, shame it wasn't used in more games TBH. Sega America also did wounders with the DC given the lack of staff and money, such a shame SEGA Japan wasn't up to the job and SEGA Europe was beyond useless
I get the while so many thought the 32X was a good idea and nice tech for the price and if it came out a year earlier it could have been so different. But launching the system at the same time SOJ was launching the Saturn was madness. It split SEGA fan against SEGA fan, SEGA developments against Sega Developments and SEGA PR Spend against SEGA PR spend; Do you back the Saturn or the 32X? Never mind SEGA also had to support the Mega Drive, Game Gear, Arcades as well.
Madness
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
Ironically, this thread transformed I to something great.Who would have thought that a drunken Friday night shitpost from
This is possibly the greatest anti-shitpost ever done on a forum.
Kazza
Member
I've always wondered about the lack of influence that Sega Europe had at that time. With not one but two successes under their belt (both MS and MD), you would have thought that they would have had a much bigger say in how the company was run, but all you hear about is SoA and SoJ. Was the whole of the PAL market really that much smaller than the North American one?
