Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I just want the same dude to do the experiment again playing position 5 support.
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Dota 2 |OT4| The saga of Vade and ReRixo: the Boat Anchors continues.
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
- Start date
Green Biker Dude
Banned
there's something incredibly wrong with either the way the game is balanced or the ranking if you can't climb it by playing 2 out of 5 positions. that's like 40% of the cast in a fighting game being shit, or, 90% of the people should only play chun-li, ken and yun to climb the ladder
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I don't think it's quite fair to compare it to SF as it feels like certain heroes are played with a certain play style in mind.
So, it's not necessarily due to the poor balancing, just poor team composition which exacerbates their delicate position in the first place.
Edit: Marvel would be better.
You couldn't play Phoenix without a battery. Or it would be really difficult starting with her first.
So, it's not necessarily due to the poor balancing, just poor team composition which exacerbates their delicate position in the first place.
Edit: Marvel would be better.
You couldn't play Phoenix without a battery. Or it would be really difficult starting with her first.
The biggest problem with ranked is AP. that mode is garbage.
I think coming into a random pub team with the thinking of "I'm going to play X role (or hereo" is a bad mindset to have. You should try to figure out what your team needs or what the other team has already picked and go off that... but that's what makes AP garbage so I don't know. Ranked is stupid. Single draft is where it's at.
I think coming into a random pub team with the thinking of "I'm going to play X role (or hereo" is a bad mindset to have. You should try to figure out what your team needs or what the other team has already picked and go off that... but that's what makes AP garbage so I don't know. Ranked is stupid. Single draft is where it's at.
I've heard this from others as well, but haven't tried it out myself.
I think my next games I play will be single draft.
Single draft is just as bad if you are relying on luck to get a decent team composition, especially at lower levels where most players are practiced with only a few heroes.
The most balanced mode is captain's mode, the most balanced and fun way to play this game is 5v5 stacks where you can communicate with each other. Everything else to me doesn't matter.
The most balanced mode is captain's mode, the most balanced and fun way to play this game is 5v5 stacks where you can communicate with each other. Everything else to me doesn't matter.
Gully State
Member
Random draft is where it's at. I really hope they implement that into ranked soon.
You run into the same issue with Captain's Draft when you have a non-competent captain.
I can understand where you're coming from when you have a team, but if you are soloq then I don't think it's a great way to experience the game.
much slower to get into games too
If you want to see what it looks like just come play Gaf IH's and watch high skill gaf playing supports, they still walk all over low skill gaf even with this supposed handicap.
Schweinehund
Member
It would be excellent if you could climb as support because sometimes I do feel like chillin at playing visage or lion, but I think you're better off just finding a team and playing with friends.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
1 off match v progression up the MMR ranking.
First game with bloodseeker. Why is BS + forcestaff not a common build? I literally one-shotted most of them just by using forcestaff on them after ult.
Its such a fun item on him.
Shush you.
if you took into account how many kills he stole from me, i would have the higher kill count
he's a team player
Not... really. What's going on is this. The game was originally envisaged as just a 5v5 fanservice game. There was no 1-5, no roles or any kind of structure. Years later, a competitive community developed and certain strategies seemed to work at a high level. What they all shared was the divvying of roles and responsibilities and then the 1-5 terminology was invented to describe, break down and analyze these competitive games.
This does not mean DOTA2 is a 5v5 game where every player on each team has his own distinct identity or role like Football. It is still very much a 5v5 no holds barred fanservice game, except without the fanservice. When you play 5 in a pub game, however, you're trying to force a competitive level structure on a bunch of random nobodies. Some of them will be good enough to take you up on it, and then you might actually get to do your job, which is not buying wards and and pulling camps, but amplifying how well your team preforms. If you choose to play a role that's reliant on your team, then you're putting the game into the hands of your team rather than yourself.
So if you really enjoy playing 5, then by all means, continue playing 5. But if you want to see your number go up, then you'll have to start taking as much of the responsibility for your wins as possible, which you do by playing 1-2.
SteveWinwood
Member
I'd wager a bunch of money that if you were a really good 5, you'd still go up, just at a slower pace than someone who was a really good 1-2. Even at the lowest of levels wards, smokes, and dust will help.
Juice is doing it to prove a point, that elo hell isn't a thing. And he's doing it in the most efficient way possible. He's not proving that you have to play a carry to move up.
Juice is doing it to prove a point, that elo hell isn't a thing. And he's doing it in the most efficient way possible. He's not proving that you have to play a carry to move up.
Green Biker Dude
Banned
what your post amounts to, haly, is: the problem lies with the ranking, not the game balance. that's ok. it has to be one or the other though.
also, even though i understand there's a history behind how the game got here, what matters is the present, not what happened when dota was a wc3 mod people played on 56k. i mean, as long as people realize this isn't ok and needs to be fixed, it's a start. accepting something faulty because it was "always like that" is not something i can agree with, however
either way, i don't really see how this can be debatable. if 2/5 positions aren't viable for climbing the ladder, then something is wrong, like i said, with either the game itself or the system used to grade the players. whatever historical reasons behind this are irrelevant to me because i'm playing this game today
edit: assuming people playing 4/5 can't climb. which is the premise here. it's possible he could do it with position 5 heroes too. who knows. i've seen that opinion posted often though. and even professional players have expressed it in the past
also, even though i understand there's a history behind how the game got here, what matters is the present, not what happened when dota was a wc3 mod people played on 56k. i mean, as long as people realize this isn't ok and needs to be fixed, it's a start. accepting something faulty because it was "always like that" is not something i can agree with, however
either way, i don't really see how this can be debatable. if 2/5 positions aren't viable for climbing the ladder, then something is wrong, like i said, with either the game itself or the system used to grade the players. whatever historical reasons behind this are irrelevant to me because i'm playing this game today
edit: assuming people playing 4/5 can't climb. which is the premise here. it's possible he could do it with position 5 heroes too. who knows. i've seen that opinion posted often though. and even professional players have expressed it in the past
Mirana noob.
lmao he spent the WHOLE GAME trying to kill crystal maiden because she was absolutely shitting on the two of us in the laning phase
PillowKnight
Member
Yep, the idea that your mmr is going to be deflated because of playing support is just silly.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/579492039
This was another one of those games that feels like I couldn't have possibly done anything to change the outcome of. Sure, I could have made less mistakes, had more farm by not ganking at all, or ganked more and had no farm at all. But no matter what it still felt like were fucked.
I didn't realize we were up against team "fuck yo mana" when I picked storm.
This was the game I just played on stream, anyone care to give some insight on how the hell I could have won this?
This was another one of those games that feels like I couldn't have possibly done anything to change the outcome of. Sure, I could have made less mistakes, had more farm by not ganking at all, or ganked more and had no farm at all. But no matter what it still felt like were fucked.
I didn't realize we were up against team "fuck yo mana" when I picked storm.
This was the game I just played on stream, anyone care to give some insight on how the hell I could have won this?
Cyborgmatt
Member
Been there for months.
Soon
So I started my alt account to see where it places.
My lane partner (Lion) probably has played like 1 game of dota. I could not do anything as WK.
Our Alch did not know how to use his stun or how it worked and I saw him maybe use Acid Spray once and not even when they were killing our T3 and sitting outside for 2 minutes. As a 'support' alch I think he went 2 points stun 2 points greed in a double melee lane and built BF first.
Luckily we had a BM and a Viper. I had horrible early game vs a VS/Sniper as they knew how to play and combed and harassed my lane while Lion drew creep aggro from right clicking Venge once then died to Headshots + Stun.
If I had a good support in my lane it would have gone so much better, holy shit. We won anyway because Viper carried us and I finally got items. against SB Sniper with deso and Riki. Truly pub tier. I asked Lion to buy gem and he said 'how'.
I don't think I'm going to pick a melee carry until I get to like 2.5k or something.
My lane partner (Lion) probably has played like 1 game of dota. I could not do anything as WK.
Our Alch did not know how to use his stun or how it worked and I saw him maybe use Acid Spray once and not even when they were killing our T3 and sitting outside for 2 minutes. As a 'support' alch I think he went 2 points stun 2 points greed in a double melee lane and built BF first.
Luckily we had a BM and a Viper. I had horrible early game vs a VS/Sniper as they knew how to play and combed and harassed my lane while Lion drew creep aggro from right clicking Venge once then died to Headshots + Stun.
If I had a good support in my lane it would have gone so much better, holy shit. We won anyway because Viper carried us and I finally got items. against SB Sniper with deso and Riki. Truly pub tier. I asked Lion to buy gem and he said 'how'.
I don't think I'm going to pick a melee carry until I get to like 2.5k or something.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=105782402#post105782402
Already read that, and doesn't answer my question.
When I look at my own replays I (naturally) look at them pretty biased, that's why I ask people.
I'm not gonna take that much time, but I'll send you an invite.
I'm super critical, but miss macro things.
SteveWinwood
Member
dont play all pick if youre worried about getting counter picked
I'm not trying to debate. I'm explaining to you what the MMR system, in its current form, represents. It measures how much impact you have on your team's ability to win. That's it. It's a mistake to think that, because 1-5 structure exists in competitive play, that it would also be representative of lower level play, and that the MMR system should account for the 1-5 structure. MMR, in its current form, treats you as a nameless faceless player that can play any position at all.
Look at what Akke is playing on Ranked. Axe, lots of it. A few supports now and then, sometimes mid. He's usually grouped with one or two people who support him, because they know, and he knows, that he is the better player and the better player should be in the role with the most impact so they can win. Akke doesn't need affirmation that he's one of the best supports ever, and his picks show it. For him, DOTA2 Ladder is totally separate from his career being one of the best 4s in the world. This is a realistic way of approaching the Ladder in its current form.
Now, you can argue that "This is wrong, the MMR system should be reflective of the highest level play", which is fine. But that doesn't make the MMR system itself flawed. It means you just don't like what it measures and would rather have a system that awards your chosen playstyle. Well, wouldn't we all? Except the only system that I can imagine that would give you what you want is one whereby there are separate ladders, one for each role. I can't agree with such a system, not just because it would be difficult to implement, but it would lead to an enforced meta and hinder players from improving, which is the one thing that MMR is actually supposed to do.
You'll never improve, as a player, if you don't leave your comfort zone. It's a mistake to think that just because you play 4-5 that you don't need to learn how to mid or how to carry. At sub 5k levels, it's all game mechanics and game sense anyway. Playing a good support, and I can confidently say most people don't know what a "good support" is (I'm still trying to figure it out myself), doesn't really matter until you're playing in the 4.5-5k bracket.
Sometimes, when team GAF is playing on some stream, someone in Twitch chat or spectator will ask "Why is ellen pudge playing support?", probably because these people have been shat on by Milk's mid game at some point. But Milk knows that mid is not his strongest role, so when winning a match is the most important thing, he'll put 1.09 mid, even though he knows he could probably beat the other team's mid (EXCEPT FOR NOBLEWINGZ).
Milk, who identifies as a 4-5 player, didn't become one of the best players on GAF by playing 4-5. He played all roles. BZM is another 4-5 player who would shit on the average DOTA2 player mid, and he didn't just play 4-5 either.
If you have a system that validates intentionally limiting yourself as a player, well, you'll get a whole lot of meaningless numbers and inflated egos. But I get the impression that you wouldn't mind that at all.
You can get counterpicked in any ranked mode.
And he still didn't get a BKB.
Sigismundo
Member
12 seconds of hard CC Faceless Void?
SteveWinwood
Member
if you get countered in captains mode thats your's/your captain's fault
outside of that
people should just play all random
Green Biker Dude
Banned
throwing empty insults again. at least these are new
and i play whatever outside 3 or 4 heroes. but if your system rewards playing one class more than the other, either the class or the system is broken. you can write entire books trying to refute it, but it's just that simple
it's also not my job to come out with an alternative. that's what valve is there for
and i play whatever outside 3 or 4 heroes. but if your system rewards playing one class more than the other, either the class or the system is broken. you can write entire books trying to refute it, but it's just that simple
it's also not my job to come out with an alternative. that's what valve is there for
All random isn't ranked.
A lot apparently???
SteveWinwood
Member
then dont play ranked
Maybe I want to raise my MMR.
You want "rewards", you want to be "recognized", you're being crushed under the system and you don't like it.
The system is fine. You don't like what the system is. That's all that's happening here.
Maybe Valve should make some Cheevos for Wards Bought and Mids Won and base matchmaking on that!
SteveWinwood
Member
then counter pick the other team
They do, they're called gems and sockets.
Then stop playing ranked, spend a lot of time in unranked in various modes trying lots of different heroes and scenarios to improve your general play, then come back to ranked and if you are better your MMR will improve?