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[badboy78660]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/08/30/female-entrepreneurs-invent-male-co-founder-avoid-sexist-discrimination/

The technology world has been widely criticised for its sexism problem. Now, two female entrepreneurs have revealed they had to invent a male co-founder in order to get their firm started.

Penelope Gazin and Kate Dwyer, who founded the online art marketplace Witchsy, created an imaginary third co-founder Keith Mann, which they would use to correspond with male developers and designers.

It came after developers and designers, most of whom were male, used a condescending tone towards them. In one instance, a developer opened an email with the phrase, "Okay, girls". Another attempted to delete their website after Gazin declined his offer of a date.

"It was like night and day," Dwyer told Fast Company after they started to send emails under the "Keith" pseudonym.

"It would take me days to get a response, but Keith could not only get a response and a status update, but could also be asked if he wanted anything else or if there was anything else that Keith needed help with."

After they set up an email account for Keith the people they were working with became more responsive, they said. Despite the damning indictment for the industry, Gazin and Dwyer said they didn't let the experience tarnish their ambition.

"I think we could have gotten pretty bent out of shape about that," said Dwyer. "Wow, are people really going to talk to this imaginary man with more respect than us? But we were like, you know what, this is clearly just part of this world that we’re in right now."

The co-founders are not the first women to report experiencing sexism in Silicon Valley's tech scene.

Major companies including Google, Uber, Oracle and Peter Thiel's Palantir have been embroiled in gender and sexual discrimination scandals in recent months.

Google fired engineer James Damore for perpetuating harmful gender stereotypes in an open letter to the firm that said the yawning pay gap was partly down to biological causes.

Uber's former chief executive Travis Kalanick had to step down after a report found sexual misconduct was endemic at the ride-hailing company. It fired 20 employees and reprimanded a further 40.

Similar problems affect tech companies in the UK, with the funding process for start-ups often discriminating against female entrepreneurs. A report from Barclays and the Entrepreneurs Network in March found 9pc of investment into upstart firms went to those run by women in 2016.

Witchsy is similar to craft marketplace Etsy but with a gothic twist. In its first year the company made around $200,000 worth of sales, according to Fast Company, and signed an investment deal with Justin Roiland, co-creator of Rick and Morty.

 

[kadotsu]

They should patent that!

 

[Mr-Joker]

In one instance, a developer opened an email with the phrase, "Okay, girls"

Can someone explain to me how this one is bad, is it because it's too informal?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I won't lie. My jaw dropped reading that. It's hilariously depressing.

 

[benicillin]

Can someone explain to me how this one is bad, is it because it's too informal?

Do you really actually need someone to explain to you why you shouldn't address adult women who are running their own business as "girls" in a professional email?

 

[Ferrio]

Can someone explain to me how this one is bad, is it because it's too informal?

Girls insinuates small children. Tbh I have trouble with this since I tend to say "Hey guys" and there's not really a good female alternative that doesn't come out sounding bad.

 

[MultiCore]

Can someone explain to me how this one is bad, is it because it's too informal?

Could have just been their interpretation.
Could have actually been condescending.

Impossible to know now.

 

[Trojita]

In one instance, a developer opened an email with the phrase, "Okay, girls"

Not sure if this was supposed to be harassment or not. I reply with gendered nouns all the time, "Thanks man". "Okay guys". Saying "Gals" isn't in vogue, so most people would say girls when being informal.

 

[jay]

Can someone explain to me how this one is bad, is it because it's too informal?

Don't call women girls.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Girls insinuates small children. Tbh I have trouble with this since I tend to say "Hey guys" and there's not really a good female alternative that doesn't come out sounding bad.

The equivalent would be "Okay boys" not "Okay guys"

It's not the worst thing ever, but I can see why it'd be condescending.

 

[Haly]

Can someone explain to me how this one is bad, is it because it's too informal?

It's condescending. "Okay, girls" is something a teacher says to his class of female students or maybe a father to his daughters.

Anyway something something biological differences something totally not systematic sexism something something.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Do you really actually need someone to explain to you why you shouldn't address adult women who are running their own business as "girls" in a professional email?

Particularly someone who is my boss / the head of my company. Even very close colleagues I could kind of see.

 

[Caelus]

Not sure if this was supposed to be harassment or not. I reply with gendered nouns all the time, "Thanks man". "Okay guys". Saying "Gals" isn't in vogue, so most people would say girls when being informal.

"Ladies"?

 

[Trojita]

Should have went with M'Lady.

 

[PK Gaming]

This is hysterical and depressing.

Hysessing? Depresterical?

I hope more women keep doing it tbh.

 

[Caelus]

Also

Keith Mann

Amazing.

 

[LordRaptor]

Can someone explain to me how this one is bad, is it because it's too informal?

Don't worry your pretty little head about it, hon

 

[Ferrio]

The equivalent would be "Okay boys" not "Okay guys"

It's not the worst thing ever, but I can see why it'd be condescending.

I meant an equivelent to "Okay guys". "Okay gals" is the closest but that sounds bad too.

"Ladies"?

Still sounds bad to me, like it's Charlies angels or something.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Also

Keith Mann

Amazing.

Yea I loled.

 

[thecouncil]

Girls insinuates small children. Tbh I have trouble with this since I tend to say "Hey guys" and there's not really a good female alternative that doesn't come out sounding bad.

Guys and gals, boys and girls.

People don't tend to say "hey boys" in anything and I certainly hope you're not using "hey guys" in professional emails.

Could have just been their interpretation.
Could have actually been condescending.

Impossible to know now.

Calling adult women "girls" is condescending.

 

[SpaceWolf]

Also

Keith Mann

Amazing.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

Not sure if this was supposed to be harassment or not. I reply with gendered nouns all the time, "Thanks man". "Okay guys". Saying "Gals" isn't in vogue, so most people would say girls when being informal.

Here's an idea. When you write a professional email, try to actually respect the other party by using their freaking names when possible.

 

[Borgnine]

Sounds like a sitcom. Keith just got invited to give a big speech at the entrepreneur conference, what are Penelope and Kate going to do????

 

[TheCochese]

 

[Akuun]

That's freaking awful.

Can someone explain to me how this one is bad, is it because it's too informal?

It's condescending because it's like talking to a child.

"Okay, boys" is overly informal when sent as a work email, but culturally doesn't carry the same edge of condescension. To a guy, a better equivalent would be someone starting a work email to you with "Listen, son" or "Okay, kids". You would never talk to a business partner that way unless you were trying to be a dick.

 

[MultiCore]

Calling adult women "girls" is condescending.

Only if you think it is.

 

[louiedog]

There was a story a few months ago about male and female coworkers who switched emails for a week and talked about how differently they were each treated using each others names but still doing their same level of work.

edit: here

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Only if you think it is.

????

 

[Hyun Sai]

This is hilarious and depressing at the same time.

 

[Caelus]

Still sounds bad to me, like it's Charlies angels or something.

I know, from my perspective it at least acknowledges them as adults but I'd ultimately default to using their names.

Only if you think it is.

Sigh.

 

[Kayhan]

brb pitching this to Hollywood

 

[Elandyll]

Also

Keith Mann

Amazing.

Should have gone with Remy Steel.

Like literally that level of fuckery they had to fight against, but that was a 1980s comedy PI show.

 

[see5harp]

I wish them all of the luck and hate that they are being treated like this but Etsy with a gothic twist? Gross.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Only if you think it is.

Yeah aka if you are a woman, so yes it is.

 

[MultiCore]

????

Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk

 

[Trojita]

But things changed when fictional Keith Mann began signing their correspondence - with a certain level of assertiveness.

"Keith would chase things up; 'You guys said this would be done, what's the status?' he would write. The responses were pretty speedy," Ms Dwyer said.

Sounds like this wasn't a 1:1 experiment since they apparently changed their behavior while under the fake pseudonym.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I wish them all of the luck and hate that they are being treated like this but Etsy with a gothic twist? Gross.

...Huh?

Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk

So you don't want to elaborate? K

 

[erragal]

Can someone explain to me how this one is bad, is it because it's too informal?

It's a diminutive opening. You don't call a business partner 'boy' when you're discussing official business. Not if you're serious about them.

Also, in text, it comes off extremely patronizing without tons of context surrounding it. Given that text is an easy medium for inadvertent insults, usually best to avoid throwaway informal diminuitives with people you don't have a long standing personal relationship with.

What usually happens is people that do shit like this in text will backtrack when challenged and say you misinterpreted them, but continually repeat the same behaviors.

We're in this era where people are abusing the implicative nature of written English in dishonest fashion. Structure, context, and overall composition is a significant contributor to how your written words will be interpreted.

Nowadays everyone's just pretending they don't know what they're saying, but they do. They gotta try harder.

 

[Mr-Joker]

Do you really actually need someone to explain to you why you shouldn't address adult women who are running their own business as "girls" in a professional email?

Yes I do when I don't have the context of the e-mail in hand.

Also I am a firm believer in asking questions, no matter how stupid it may sound or annoy folks as it's how I learn things.

So I don't appreciate your passive aggressive tone.

Girls insinuates small children. Tbh I have trouble with this since I tend to say "Hey guys" and there's not really a good female alternative that doesn't come out sounding bad.

I see, though "Hey Gal" or "Hey ladies" also wouldn't have sound better either as they kinda come off sounding sleazy.

Personally in a professional e-mail, I always write "Dear Sir/Madam" or "Hi insert their name."

Could have just been their interpretation.
Could have actually been condescending.

Impossible to know now.

I suppose, which is why I asked because I was a bit confused by it.

It's a diminutive opening. You don't call a business partner 'boy' when you're discussing official business. Not if you're serious about them.

Also, in text, it comes off extremely patronizing without tons of context surrounding it. Given that text is an easy medium for inadvertent insults, usually best to avoid throwaway informal diminuitives with people you don't have a long standing personal relationship with.

What usually happens is people that do shit like this in text will backtrack when challenged and say you misinterpreted them, but continually repeat the same behaviors.

We're in this era where people are abusing the implicative nature of written English in dishonest fashion. Structure, context, and overall composition is a significant contributor to how your written words will be interpreted.

Nowadays everyone's just pretending they don't know what they're saying, but they do. They gotta try harder.

Okay, now I understand better. Thanks for answering the question.

 

[thecouncil]

Only if you think it is.

id love for you to expand on that. really, what are you talking about?

 

[MultiCore]

Yeah aka if you are a woman, so yes it is.

Could easily be a term of endearment.
Your blanket statements about the intent of language are a bit over-reaching.

Condescension comes from the speaker, not the listener.

Perceiving that you're being talked down to doesn't mean that was their intent.

 

[Trojita]

Here's an idea. When you write a professional email, try to actually respect the other party by using their freaking names when possible.

You've never worked anywhere where communication gets very informal?

And I'm going out on a limb that art marketplace business gets even more informal than a typical suit and tie work place.

I'd even less expect this place to have mostly formal correspondences:
Vice: Witchsy Is Like Etsy for People Who Want to Sell Jars Full of Fingernails

 

[Haly]

We're talking about professional transactions. You don't begin an email to your clients/employers with "hey boys", even "hey guys" would be overstepping bounds unless you were personally acquainted. That they added "girls" after "okay" is where the condescension lies. An "okay" would've been sufficient, but they felt the need to establish their differences along biological lines.

Could easily be a term of endearment.

The owners already mentioned getting unwanted romantic/sexual advances from their contractees. This "endearment"? It's another unwanted advance.

 

[Saganator]

Could easily be a term of endearment.
Your blanket statements about the intent of language are a bit over-reaching.

Whatever, boy.

 

[Dali]

I just pictured women talking on the phone like Jared's made up guy from silicon valley.

 

[UncleSporky]

Another attempted to delete their website after Gazin declined his offer of a date.

...

"It would take me days to get a response, but Keith could not only get a response and a status update, but could also be asked if he wanted anything else or if there was anything else that Keith needed help with."

The contrast here is kind of weird to me. One the one hand people paid too much attention to the point of seeking a date, on the other they ignored them and wouldn't respond? I guess they must've been different customers, each acting inappropriately.

I'm familiar with people who act differently toward women in the workplace. I once had a coworker who always put women at the top of his priority list all the time...he wasn't interested in being romantically involved or anything, it just seemed like a "fairer sex"/weird sense of chivalry thing. He would complain to the rest of us that the ladies were trying to get their work done and not receiving the service they needed to do their jobs. It was always like...dude they're as much a priority as anyone else, they don't get to skip the queue just because you say so. You're not even involved. One time he blew up and yelled at me to my face over it.

So yeah...in my own experience, women have seemed to get more attention/support than men. But that's just in the jobs I've worked.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

You've never worked anywhere where communication gets very informal?

And I'm going out on a limb that art marketplace business gets even more informal than a typical suit and tie work place.

Let's look at their business:
Vice: Witchsy Is Like Etsy for People Who Want to Sell Jars Full of Fingernails

Business communications can become somewhat more informal with time, but don't start out that way. And using the business itself as justification for behaving unprofessionally towards them is pretty bullshit.

 

[Fliesen]

 

[snap]

Girls insinuates small children. Tbh I have trouble with this since I tend to say "Hey guys" and there's not really a good female alternative that doesn't come out sounding bad.

gals

it's 50s as all hell but tossing it around in my head it still fits better than girls or ladies imho

 

[erragal]

Only if you think it is.

Ah yes, thank you for contributing to the English composition lesson, child. Someone simultaneously pretending language doesn't have a tone, while structuring their statement in as perfunctory and insulting a fashion as possible.

Or do you deny that providing more context to your statement could change the way others perceive it? Do you not care how others perceive written words? Do you actually believe your statement is self explanatory and conveys enough information to adequately inform the reader of your full position? If not, why not take responsibility for the abrasive position you've taken with little real reason. Are you personally aggrieved at individuals taking written words at face value?? I must assume so, and have the right to do because you've given so little context to work with.

Perhaps, instead, if people don't want to let others have to imagine what they mean, care and concern can be taken to leave no questions as to our meaning and thusly provide no opportunities for such shenanigans. Perhaps? Perchance? Possibly?