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Fighting Games Weekly | July 7-13 | EVO 2014: Putting Q in more games than Capcom

R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
Dahbomb said:
Not really. Commentators are always talking about stuff like plinks, DPs, TACs, okis, OSs, FADC etc. under the assumption that the viewing audience knows these terms. A layman is not expected to know these terms or even how to execute most moves in the game.
Click to expand...

Do they need to know that stuff to appreciate the match?

I think it could be useful in Dota for explaining some of the more esoteric aspects and objectives of the game, since there's alot

but I think fighting games are straightforward enough to where we don't need that.

Tutorials are good and I think we could use more community match analysis to teach new players how to actively watch matches, but I don't really think we need that stuff during live events
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I can't speak for others but for me personally I appreciate high level competition far more when I actually know about the game. I am not able to appreciate high level Smash play simply because I don't know anything about it. When people commentate Smash I am always lost on their terminologies (wave shine, l cancelling,, short hop etc.) and to be honest I can't tell who is out playing who in the neutral without looking at their percentage numbers.
 
D

DryEyeRelief

Member
Retro_ said:
Do they need to know that stuff to appreciate the match?

I think it could be useful in Dota for explaining some of the more esoteric aspects and objectives of the game, since there's alot

but I think fighting games are straightforward enough to where we don't need that.

Tutorials are good and I think we could use more community match analysis to teach new players how to actively watch matches, but I don't really think we need that stuff during live events
Click to expand...

You probably feel this way because you already play fighting games.
 
C

Clawww

Member
I feel that there's enough downtime in between rounds or games or even just during a fight to be able to relate some ideas to beginners quickly and efficiently. It doesn't seem that hard to express fighting games concept in a simple way, and likewise, I don't think it's hard for a beginner to grasp the bulk of what's going on. Stuff like punishing, baiting, keeping the opponent out is pretty straightforward. You can always elaborate on something more technical after the fact, or even spend time during the round to explain something important--I don't feel that every single move or action needs to be spoken for, so it's probably okay to break it down even as the fight goes on.

The commentary shouldn't have to fully teach the game to a beginner--just keep them in the loop and engaged. It's okay if they don't grasp what a frame trap is on their first time watching a stream; anyways, that can be explained in between games if it was critical to the prior match.
 
N

Nyoro SF

Member
Dahbomb said:
I can't speak for others but for me personally I appreciate high level competition far more when I actually know about the game. I am not able to appreciate high level Smash play simply because I don't know anything about it. When people commentate Smash I am always lost on their terminologies (wave shine, l cancelling,, short hop etc.) and to be honest I can't tell who is out playing who in the neutral without looking at their percentage numbers.
Click to expand...

I actually took the time a week ago to browse all smash terms through their wiki so I would understand what was going on when I watch matches. Highly recommended.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
I can't speak for others but for me personally I appreciate high level competition far more when I actually know about the game. I am not able to appreciate high level Smash play simply because I don't know anything about it. When people commentate Smash I am always lost on their terminologies (wave shine, l cancelling,, short hop etc.) and to be honest I can't tell who is out playing who in the neutral without looking at their percentage numbers.
Click to expand...
L-cancel is another way of saying the landing lag of a move was canceled. In Smash, unlike most fighters, aerial moves often have recovery frames after you land. If you hit "L" right when you land, it cancels those recovery frames.

I think wave shine is just wave dashing + Fox's reflector.

Short hops are the same thing as they are in KoF and Mario games. If you press the jump button down in Smash (or hold up), then you do a big jump. If you tap it lightly, you do a short jump. Short hops are usually preferable because they let you cover the aerial aggression zone better than full jumps.

If you need any other definitions, let me know.
 
R

Revven

Member
Karsticles said:
L-cancel is another way of saying the landing lag of a move was canceled. In Smash, unlike most fighters, aerial moves often have recovery frames after you land. If you hit "L" right when you land, it cancels those recovery frames.
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be pressed with the "L" button to L-cancel -- the L comes from "landing" (or maybe it comes from "lag"? I forget... could just be "L" because it rolls off the tongue more easily). You can L-cancel with any of the shield buttons (L, R, or even Z though Z is wayyyy harder lol). Though it is true that most people do use "L" to L-cancel -- like myself lol.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
DryEyeRelief said:
You probably feel this way because you already play fighting games.
Click to expand...

Part true. I feel this way because I remember what it's like to watch streams while knowing nothing about high level play, and what it's like to get into the games and the scene because of an interest sparked from watching those streams.

I just feel that live events and streams are entertainment first. Not tutorials to teach people the game from scratch. Trying to turn them into tutorials I feel misses what's appealing about them to new players.

It's a cool experiment for Valve since they seem to be doing everything for Dota this year, but it's not something I think we as a community should really be jealous of.

Now that feature they've implemented to be able to rewind live matches. THAT is something we need to have.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I have read these definitions quite a few times but some I either don't understand or just forget. I need to see them in a video format or in a live demonstration to understand them properly.

And reading definitions doesn't mean you understand them. I can define micromanagement in RTS to people but you will not understand the difference between good micro and bad. And that's what high level play is about... it's about understanding what makes someone good at a certain skill. Then you can appreciate high level play... if you don't understand high level play then you can't really appreciate it.

You can define "fundamentals" to someone but you can't define how Daigo has good fundamentals without pointing them out in match for a newcomer.
 
U

Unlucky

Member
onionfrog said:
Anybody want to Q-ify my avatar? I'd do it but I only have MSPaint on this PC.
Click to expand...
gd4YsHd.png
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
And DOTA 2 is light years ahead of any other fighting game in terms of features and online integration so I am not trying to make comparisons here. This was just something that I thought should get some attention in isolation as it was a new thing for that game.
 
D

Deckard Cain

Banned
Dahbomb said:
And DOTA 2 is light years ahead of any other fighting game in terms of features and online integration so I am not trying to make comparisons here. This was just something that I thought should get some attention in isolation as it was a new thing for that game.
Click to expand...

You should stop hoping for stuff like that.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
I thought Valve's tutorial stream was to explain the basics to new players during the game. Not high level play.

That's a pretty stupid way to approach newbies in anything. You're just going to overwhelm them like that, if you don't put them to sleep first.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Watching The Last Unicorn...nostalgia!

Revven said:
It doesn't have to be pressed with the "L" button to L-cancel -- the L comes from "landing" (or maybe it comes from "lag"? I forget... could just be "L" because it rolls off the tongue more easily). You can L-cancel with any of the shield buttons (L, R, or even Z though Z is wayyyy harder lol). Though it is true that most people do use "L" to L-cancel -- like myself lol.
Click to expand...
Good to know!

Dahbomb said:
I have read these definitions quite a few times but some I either don't understand or just forget. I need to see them in a video format or in a live demonstration to understand them properly.

And reading definitions doesn't mean you understand them. I can define micromanagement in RTS to people but you will not understand the difference between good micro and bad. And that's what high level play is about... it's about understanding what makes someone good at a certain skill. Then you can appreciate high level play... if you don't understand high level play then you can't really appreciate it.

You can define "fundamentals" to someone but you can't define how Daigo has good fundamentals without pointing them out in match for a newcomer.
Click to expand...
What do you need a visual for? I'll find one for you.

Unlucky said:
wEt6xuW.png
Click to expand...
These are so good. You guys do great work.
 
J

Juicebox_FGC

Member
Has anyone here read

"From Masher to Master: The Educated Video Game Enthusiast’s Fighting Game Primer (Super Book Edition)"?

I don't really disagree with anything in it, but the fact that this is being shown as a "beginner" guide while being over 100 pages is very telling.

I don't really think that fighting game basics can be shrunk down to a pamphlet and given to someone for a quick crash course. They are innately complex.
 
C

CountBlack

Member
Juicebox_FGC said:
Has anyone here read

"From Masher to Master: The Educated Video Game Enthusiast’s Fighting Game Primer (Super Book Edition)"?

I don't really disagree with anything in it, but the fact that this is being shown as a "beginner" guide while being over 100 pages is very telling.

I don't really think that fighting game basics can be shrunk down to a pamphlet and given to someone for a quick crash course. They are innately complex.
Click to expand...

i can't read

teach me how to KOF
 
O

OceanBlue

Member
Juicebox_FGC said:
Has anyone here read

"From Masher to Master: The Educated Video Game Enthusiast’s Fighting Game Primer (Super Book Edition)"?

I don't really disagree with anything in it, but the fact that this is being shown as a "beginner" guide while being over 100 pages is very telling.

I don't really think that fighting game basics can be shrunk down to a pamphlet and given to someone for a quick crash course. They are innately complex.
Click to expand...

Was there ever a GAF thread about this? I'm interested in seeing how people who don't play fighting games respond to it lol.
 
B

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Juicebox_FGC said:
Has anyone here read

"From Masher to Master: The Educated Video Game Enthusiast’s Fighting Game Primer (Super Book Edition)"?

I don't really disagree with anything in it, but the fact that this is being shown as a "beginner" guide while being over 100 pages is very telling.

I don't really think that fighting game basics can be shrunk down to a pamphlet and given to someone for a quick crash course. They are innately complex.
Click to expand...

I can play Marvel cause I'm brain dead but teach me Street Fighter!
 
C

colinp

Banned
As a newbie to fighting games and EVO who literally started playing the day before yesterday, having a newbie stream to explain things would be fantastic. These giant tournaments are an opportunity to welcome new people because they are the biggest and therefore get the most press and exposure. Valve recognizes that TI is the perfect moment to ease new people in. I don't see how something similar wouldn't help EVO.

I'm slowly reading through that newbie book that was posted and it is quite enjoyable all told (that said, at first I felt frustrated to be told to start playing with an old game like SF2T. Really? I understand it's amazing and all, but that's where you want me to start? Eh, I'm not looking to become a master so I'll play SF4 and KOF and just have fun as I learn. This is important: everything I'm reading about can be applied to those games, too- great to know!).

I watched, for the first time, a bit (two fights, then I had to go to work, alas) of the capcom fighters stream earlier and though lots of things were over my head, I could also start to appreciate some of the finer things that happened as they hastily explained them. The speed at which things happens is sooooo crazy to me, but I love how tense it can get in a fight.

It's really weird to see people get defensive or dismissive of helping newcomers. I guess this is the struggle of the community?
 
K

Karsticles

Member
colinp said:
As a newbie to fighting games and EVO who literally started playing the day before yesterday, having a newbie stream to explain things would be fantastic. These giant tournaments are an opportunity to welcome new people because they are the biggest and therefore get the most press and exposure. Valve recognizes that TI is the perfect moment to ease new people in. I don't see how something similar wouldn't help EVO.

I'm slowly reading through that newbie book that was posted and it is quite enjoyable all told (that said, at first I felt frustrated to be told to start playing with an old game like SF2T. Really? I understand it's amazing and all, but that's where you want me to start? Eh, I'm not looking to become a master so I'll play SF4 and KOF and just have fun as I learn. This is important: everything I'm reading about can be applied to those games, too- great to know!).

I watched, for the first time, a bit (two fights, then I had to go to work, alas) of the capcom fighters stream earlier and though lots of things were over my head, I could also start to appreciate some of the finer things that happened as they hastily explained them. The speed at which things happens is sooooo crazy to me, but I love how tense it can get in a fight.

It's really weird to see people get defensive or dismissive of helping newcomers. I guess this is the struggle of the community?
Click to expand...
Where do you see people getting defensive regarding helping newcomers?
 
J

Juicebox_FGC

Member
colinp said:
It's really weird to see people get defensive or dismissive of helping newcomers. I guess this is the struggle of the community?
Click to expand...

There are two reasons for this.

1) Very, VERY few people in the FGC are willing to become the teacher that it needs.

2) Most people that got good at fighting games did it through perseverence, self-study, and sometimes personal life problems. Many newcomers are not willing to do some or any of these things, and it becomes apparent the moment you tell them that they have to practice a lot.
 
M

MiniBossBattle

Member
colinp said:
As a newbie to fighting games and EVO who literally started playing the day before yesterday, having a newbie stream to explain things would be fantastic. These giant tournaments are an opportunity to welcome new people because they are the biggest and therefore get the most press and exposure. Valve recognizes that TI is the perfect moment to ease new people in. I don't see how something similar wouldn't help EVO.

I'm slowly reading through that newbie book that was posted and it is quite enjoyable all told (that said, at first I felt frustrated to be told to start playing with an old game like SF2T. Really? I understand it's amazing and all, but that's where you want me to start? Eh, I'm not looking to become a master so I'll play SF4 and KOF and just have fun as I learn. This is important: everything I'm reading about can be applied to those games, too- great to know!).

I watched, for the first time, a bit (two fights, then I had to go to work, alas) of the capcom fighters stream earlier and though lots of things were over my head, I could also start to appreciate some of the finer things that happened as they hastily explained them. The speed at which things happens is sooooo crazy to me, but I love how tense it can get in a fight.

It's really weird to see people get defensive or dismissive of helping newcomers. I guess this is the struggle of the community?
Click to expand...

Probably the best thing to do. Fighting games, at least for me, are helpful when you are learning it with someone the same level. Takes time and commitment. I think the most fun is trying to create a gameplan and learn the spacing of your good buttons moves.
 
C

colinp

Banned
Karsticles said:
Where do you see people getting defensive regarding helping newcomers?
Click to expand...

Well, the idea that tournaments or live streams are entertainment first is misguided to me. Of course they're entertainment, but that doesn't mean they can't be used to introduce and explain, too.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
The reason you should start with SF2 is because most 2D fighting games actually build off of that especially SF4. Most current fighting games have WAY more mechanics and variables than SF2 did which make them harder to learn starting out. Just compare SF4 to SF2 for example... in SF4 you have:

*Ultra moves
*EX moves
*Focus Attack and Focus Attack canceling mechanics
*Two button throw
*40+ characters versus just 12
*Dashing forward and backwards (as movement options)


That said there isn't anything wrong with getting into SF4 first... just know that over the years fighting games have just been getting more and more complex mechanically generally speaking. Sure they add stuff like comeback mechanics and short cut inputs but they are also adding a bunch of new mechanics on top of the existing game play that you have to learn about.
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
There used to be an amazing Melee tutorial youtube vid that was well produced and very entertaining that dropped a few years back - but I can't find it. I'll post it if I do.

That said, I don't think Melee needs the high-level understanding to appreciate it on a spectator level because the game is so fundamental. It's all footsies. If you understand and appreciate footsies in SF you can do the same with Melee.

Juicebox_FGC said:
Easy

Unglue your feet from the ground, confirm all your combos, dont wait around for stuff to happen. Make stuff happen
Click to expand...

Goddamn, you're actually making me consider re-buying this game. This should be on the back of the box.
 
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