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Former Bills punter Matt Araiza who was accused of gang rape cleared after evidence shows he wasn't present during incident: prosecutors

Doom85

Member
Alright read the rest you seem chill.

I mean, even in a thread discussing not finding someone guilty until proven otherwise, it’s ironically hilarious I’ve now had two separate people jump to conclusions about my initial post. Sorry if I seem tense, but the other guy was so up their ass it defied belief. Anyway, thanks for actually reading what I said, shame the other guy couldn’t do so.
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Shit like this should be kept private so that, if someone truly is innocent, they don't get fucked trying to rebuild their lives afterwards. Its really the retarded and idiotic media that goes and reports everything and makes it public knowledge so that morons can raise pitchforks without thought.

There is nothing wrong with believing women and in fact women and rape victims in general should be believed and incidents should be investigated.

Its the justice system's fault for revealing this shit and not punishing the media for making it mainstream. They should know that people have biases and will make their own judgments even if the accused is "innocent".

On the other hand, some convictions have occurred as a result of one person speaking out and other victims coming forward.

An obvious example is that of Harvey Weinstein, whose long history of rape and sexual assault would have likely gone unpunished had it not been made public that he was being prosecuted and other victims who were not known to one another were able to come forward and through a series of descriptions relay a series of accounts that demonstrated a consistent pattern of behavior. Had the first case not been publicised, he likely would have taken his crimes to the grave, unpunished.

Rape and sexual assault cases are well known for not being prosecuted, partly owing to the difficulty in collecting evidence, which often places the onus on distressed victims being certain that they want to pursue a conviction in the immediate aftermath of an attack. Rape charities in the UK report that just 1% of reported rape cases lead to a charge, let alone a conviction.

When people say "believe all women" what they mean is "don't make it more difficult than it needs to be to come forward." Victims of sexual assault have reported that when reporting being attacked, they've been met with disbelief, skepticism or even discouraged from seeking a prosecution on the basis that it will be damaging to the reputation of their attacker. Rape charities estimate that one in four women have been sexually assaulted, with the vast majority of cases not being reported.

I of course am not defending wrongful accusation, nor do I think that the stigma of an accusation of this nature is not damaging, but I don't think we should erode the protections and support for women who have been sexually assaulted.
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
When people say "believe all women" what they mean is "don't make it more difficult than it needs to be to come forward." Victims of sexual assault have reported that when reporting being attacked, they've been met with disbelief, skepticism or even discouraged from seeking a prosecution on the basis that it will be damaging to the reputation of their attacker. Rape charities estimate that one in four women have been sexually assaulted, with the vast majority of cases not being reported.
True, but does not innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt implies some skepticism? How to make presumption of innocence and all that it entails square with Believe All … needs to be tackled, but society is dancing around it.

I get what you are saying, but in these kind of high profile cases anything beyond throwing gasoline of the fire, punishing the accused, etc… was not normally the case.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
True, but does not innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt implies some skepticism? How to make presumption of innocence and all that it entails square with Believe All … needs to be tackled, but society is dancing around it.

I get what you are saying, but in these kind of high profile cases anything beyond throwing gasoline of the fire, punishing the accused, etc… was not normally the case.
All accusations must be met with skepticism, and satisfy a burden of proof of empirical evidence. There is no asterisk to apply when it comes to women. Some people seem to forget, especially in times of peace and prosperity, that all human beings are capable of incredible malice and cruelty for the pettiest of reasons, especially when they are not held accountable for their actions.
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
True, but does not innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt implies some skepticism? How to make presumption of innocence and all that it entails square with Believe All … needs to be tackled, but society is dancing around it.

I get what you are saying, but in these kind of high profile cases anything beyond throwing gasoline of the fire, punishing the accused, etc… was not normally the case.

No, that's not what skepticism means.

This is skepticism:

"I have been attacked."

"Are you sure? He's a really good looking guy, why would he attack you?"

Or "he's very rich and successful, sure you're not after a payday?"

Or "are you sure? Seems like you were keen on him in the video from the bar."

As I said in my post "believe all women" means that you don't make things harder than they need to be. Be professional, examine the evidence, proceed as appropriate with the law. It doesn't mean prosecute obviously innocent people (though as I said a tiny number of offences are charged, let alone prosecuted.)

As I acknowledged, I'm not saying that an accusation of sexual assault isn't damaging.

What is more damaging however is allowing an estimated 25% of women to be sexually assaulted without any justice for them. As I said in my post, serial rapists like Harvey Weinstein would likely still be free if accusations were kept secret.

It would be a nightmare to be accused of rape. It is a nightmare for women to be raped. It is a nightmare for women who have been raped to be not believed.
 
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Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Even more damaging than that is using fake statistics to push pernicious ideology whereby we abandon the rule of law and burden of proof in favor of finger-pointing witch hunts.

"How many people are raped, sexually assaulted and sexually abused?
1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted as an adult"

"Only 1 in 100 rapes recorded by police in 2021 resulted in a charge that same year"

"5 in 6 women who are raped don’t report – and the same is true for 4 in 5 men"

"6.5 million women in England and Wales
have been raped or sexually assaulted since the age of 16."

"How many women are raped or sexually assaulted every year?
798,000*

That's 1 in 30 women. So, probably at least one woman you know was raped or sexually assaulted in the last 12 months."

"Where did we get the data for these statistics from?
Crown Prosecution Service | Home Office | NSPCC | Office for National Statistics | Ofsted"

 
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EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
"How many people are raped, sexually assaulted and sexually abused?
1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted as an adult"

"Only 1 in 100 rapes recorded by police in 2021 resulted in a charge that same year"

"5 in 6 women who are raped don’t report – and the same is true for 4 in 5 men"

"6.5 millionw omen in England and Wales
have been raped or sexually assaulted since the age of 16."

"How many women are raped or sexually assaulted every year?
798,000*

That's 1 in 30 women. So, probably at least one woman you know was raped or sexually assaulted in the last 12 months."

"Where did we get the data for these statistics from?
Crown Prosecution Service | Home Office | NSPCC | Office for National Statistics | Ofsted"


Here's an article that provides an overview of the extreme problems in the typically reported survey data in the United States.

Rape is a serious matter and women should be protected from harm, same as everyone in society. We do that with the rule of law, which affords a baseline of protection to everyone.

If people aren't going to the police when a crime occurs, they should reconsider and go to the police instead. The answer is not the injustice of the #MeToo witch hunts.
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Here's an article that provides an overview of the extreme problems in the typically reported survey data in the United States.

That article focusses on a specific demographic (college students) on a different continent to the charity that I quoted, but let's take it at face value. Despite setting out it's stall quite early on, by citing extraordinary seeming cases including one of a child ending up on a sex offenders register, the article concludes by saying that an alternate survey (that the article says may have suppressed the number of positive respondents) said less than 1% of women at college were raped in a year. So let's call that .5% the article then says that the actual figure is likely between that low figure and the high figure it sets out to debunk. So let's go for right in the middle at about 10% and say 10% of college students in America get sexually assaulted or raped.

Are we ok with this? Do we want to see rapists prosecuted? I assume nobody is ok with this and nobody wants women to be raped.

As I mentioned in my previous posts, had the accusation by the first of Harvey Weinstein's victims not been made public then others wouldn't have come forward. His crimes went back decades. There was ample time for people to come forward. Why didn't they?

Likely because they thought there would be no positive outcome, either because of lack of evidence and the low conviction rates for rape, let alone or perhaps they were conscious that he's a millionaire who is a powerful figure in a relatively small industry who'd be able to defend himself with an elite set of lawyers.

When an allegation of this type is made, the right thing to do is to create opportunity for evidence to be gathered. That's not a witch-hunt.

The difficulty is that most people think that rapists and people who commit sexual assault are terrible people and don't want to be associated with them in any way, which is why I assume this player was dropped, based on the potential for it to reflect poorly on his team. I assume that having been found innocent then he will be able to return to his career. His Wikipedia said he signed to a Mexican team in February but that his agent disputes it. Nobody would be happy with their career being interrupted, if falsely accused of anything, and I absolutely sympathise with what must be a terrible situation to find oneself in, innocent but having to go through the process.

The question is, to boil things down to binary and absolutes, what is the greater crime in your mind, Harvey Weinstein, R Kelly, Bill Cosby all get to walk free and their victims are left to deal with the aftermath of a serious crime or that a football player misses a season before (I assume) returning to work?

It'll be possible to find people who have had worse experiences on either end of the argument, people who are accused who couldn't get their jobs back, victims who are so destroyed by their experience that they feel that their life is irrevocably ruined or that they kill themselves.

It's a terrible crime, and it's perpetrators benefit from being hidden from view. It's possible that you could find fault with the Bills for dropping Matt Araiza on the basis that he was innocent and has now been proven innocent, but the answer is not to protect rapists by preventing other victims from coming forward through hiding charges. It's also not appropriate to blame women who do not want to come forward and relive a terrible crime, be cross examined all while conscious that the crime has very low conviction rates.

It's of course difficult to not feel hard done by if you are accused of anything you didn't do, let alone a crime that society rightly despises, and fortunately false allegations are very rare, but they do happen. The UK's CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) published that of 5651 prosecutions of rape, 35 of them were found to be false, less than 1%.
 
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stn

Member
On the other hand, some convictions have occurred as a result of one person speaking out and other victims coming forward.
This is true, I concede that point. My whole thing is that women should be believed and incidents should be investigated. But there should be some discretion based on what info is made public in some cases because it can ruin the accused person's life even if and after they are found innocent. This is similar to jailing people wrongfully convicted of murder -- their lives get ruined once they are out (sure, they usually receive a ton of compensation but is it ever enough?).
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
I keep saying this, but anyone who makes a false accusation like this against a person should be punished in the way that the person would have had he committed the crime. I highly doubt this guy will get another try in the NFL, his career is over, so it goes beyond jail time but lost wages too.
 
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diffusionx

Gold Member
Just trying to debate a serious topic fairly.
For someone named Mr Reasonable, think this through. The college rape/sexual assault numbers are unbelievable on their face. If the numbers were true it would make American universities literally some of the most dangerous places on earth for women, worse than any lawless third world slum. Why would families send their children to a place, and why would the children GO, when the chance of getting raped is as high as the numbers are purported to be?
 
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Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
For someone named Mr Reasonable, think this through. The college rape/sexual assault numbers are unbelievable on their face. If the numbers were true it would make American universities literally some of the most dangerous places on earth for women, worse than any lawless third world slum. Why would families send their children to a place, and why would the children GO, when the chance of getting raped is as high as the numbers are purported to be?

I didn't bring up American College figures, but when they were brought up, I accepted them using figures from the article. Is that unreasonable? The figures I quoted were from a UK Rape charity.
 
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Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
This is true, I concede that point. My whole thing is that women should be believed and incidents should be investigated. But there should be some discretion based on what info is made public in some cases because it can ruin the accused person's life even if and after they are found innocent. This is similar to jailing people wrongfully convicted of murder -- their lives get ruined once they are out (sure, they usually receive a ton of compensation but is it ever enough?).

I guess the question is what can you say about a case that serves the purpose of inviting other victims to come forward without giving detail? By alluding to it, people will draw the same conclusion. As I understand it, that's why the law allows the publication of these stories despite the risk to reputation.

I'm not saying I don't have sympathy for people who are falsely accused, far from it, as I said earlier, it would be a nightmare situation to find yourself in.

But the choices seem to me to either give abusers more chance of getting away with it, or publish that an accusation has been made.
FWIW, I would wholly support rigorous prosecution of someone who had falsely accused someone. There is of course the problem that a lot of these sexual assault cases likely fall apart because guilty or not, there's not enough evidence to prove either outcome, which would of course limit the ability to prosecute a false accusation too.

I will say that to the credit of the media, I didn't hear anything about this guy's accusation, but now that he has been cleared it's being reported on UK news websites.

From that, I wonder if this is an understanding of the damage that can be caused and how newsworthy a figure's accusation is in another country seems to be being judged, while the need to ensure names are cleared seems to be being aided.
 
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The Cockatrice

I'm retarded?
That's 1 in 30 women. So, probably at least one woman you know was raped or sexually assaulted in the last 12 months

I love statistics that were pulled out of a donkeys ass. If I tell a woman she has huge tits, 1 in 30 will call that sexual assault, which makes these statistics dumb af. Imagine thinking so many women get raped lmfao. Slow down on the drugs.
 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
I love statistics that were pulled out of a donkeys ass. If I tell a woman she has huge tits, 1 in 30 will call that sexual assault, which makes these statistics dumb af. Imagine thinking so many women get raped lmfao. Slow down on the drugs.
Take it up with the source, I guess. I put a link to their website and they put links to their sources on that page.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
It's not so much people being mad that he is apparently innocent. It's more the fact that they know Chuds on the internet will use this case to handwave a multitude of other cases going forward and use it to cast doubt on legitimate victims.
I mean, unless your DEFAULT position is that "men are rapists" then SHOULDN'T you question any accusation until proven in court?

#believeallwomen is as damaging and toxic as #believeNOwomen would be. Both are extremist philosophies. ESPECIALLY in an environment that airs grievances in the court of public opinion instead of a court of law.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
“I could have just not reported this and probably been happier,” the woman said at the end of the meeting.


Lie, try to ruin someone's life horrifically, and regret it only because you didn't end up getting an advantage from it. The banality of evil.
 

Lunarorbit

Member
Damn! Now I know there isn't video evidence of the entire night but based on what's been released so far this looks like another false accusation.

There was blood evidence but apparently it's from a bj she gave. She's got braces and cut the guy. Plus she's telling her friends she had sex twice and was basically bragging about it.

Unless the eye witnesses are all lying it doesn't look good for her.
 
“I could have just not reported this and probably been happier,” the woman said at the end of the meeting.


Lie, try to ruin someone's life horrifically, and regret it only because you didn't end up getting an advantage from it. The banality of evil.
I mean according to what the AD said when going over the video footage was that the she was quite happy with what was going on.

It's pretty obvious what her intent was with the allegation when just a few days after claiming she was assaulted that she asked Matt for $50,000 to make it go away.
 
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LordOfChaos

Member
I wonder when society will absorb the repeated lesson of "wait for due process", if ever. The Depp case was a big one, but it seems things have settled back to dead on accusation.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
It's pretty obvious what her intent was with the allegation when just a few days after claiming she was assaulted that she asked Matt for $50,000 to make it go away.
That should have been the huge red flag.

I wonder when society will absorb the repeated lesson of "wait for due process", if ever. The Depp case was a big one, but it seems things have settled back to dead on accusation.
It never will as long as we have bad actors at the tippy top constantly gaslighting everyone's emotions and weaponizing it for their own nefarious gain.

Cognitive dissonance is at an all time high. I know of several women who align a certain way, who till this day say Depp was guilty and Amber was an innocent victim. Shit is batshit nuts.
 
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Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
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