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[Wildebeest]

This idea that it's Israel response that causes extremism is not correct.

The position is not more extreme, in that it is dialogue and peace are weakness and betrayal, only violence and expulsion are options. What is more extreme are the methods and how shameless they and their allies celebrations appear in an age of ubiquitous social media. As for if the Israeli responses somehow "cause" the current state of the world, I don't really care, as this argument is an endless void of nobody having any agency and everyone being mindless automatons.

 

[THE DUCK]

This idea that it's Israel response that causes extremism is not correct.
Even before the Israel was created, there was a large group of Palestinians demanding the death to all Jews.
Remember that during the later part of the XIX century, some Jews immigrated to the region in a peaceful manner, bought their land. And for a brief moment were well received, because they brought money to invest, many were professors, engineers, etc, that could develop the region.
But soon enough they were attacked by extremist Palestinians, demanding the expulsion or death of all Jews.

Ever since the Islamic conquest of the 7th century, that Jews have been persecuted by the Muslim community. There have been times of less aggression, and times of greater aggression. But it was never safe being a Jew in the region.
You might want to remember that during the Islamic conquest of the 7th century, millions of Christians and Jews were murdered in north Africa and the middle east.
Islam is itself an extremist religion, one that proclaims itself as the last and definitive word of God. And that all other religions are apostates and must convert of face death.



Really? Have you heard about how Germany was divided in two by the Allies.
Did you notice that East Germany only got it's independence from the USSR in the 90s. And that it was a severely underdeveloped region, so west Germany had to invest billions for decades, trying to rebuild it.

I never said Isreal's response is solely responsible for creating extremism, or that they havent faced it for decades, but it sure isn't going to make it go away. What's happening right now is unlikely to usher in an era of new peace. My point isn't to lay blame, but rather that the cycle is just repeating, which is a bad thing. Bad for Isreal, bad for the Palestinians, bad for the world. I don't have the answer, hopefully somebody amazing will.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Given that Harvard decided not to fire Gay... if that's the path they've chosen, it is their right. If they truly are all about standing by their own and allowing varying opinions and beliefs, we'll see if they keep that same energy the next time a staffer speaks out about how he's against equity or thinks pronoun usage is stupid.

They won't. They will put pressure on the employee to resign.

Remember: Antisemitism to these people are A-OK. But don't you dare use the wrong pronoun.

Penn is responding to this all by recommending a stricter speech code when it comes to calls for genocide... and in the process using this opportunity to also recommend a "hate speech" speech code that can and will be abused and selectively enforced whenever and however they please. And no doubt this will be used against Jewish people in the future, along with anyone who disagrees with any belief or opinion that they want to force on everyone.

Seriously, how vague and malleable is the wording here?

 

[winjer]

I never said Isreal's response is solely responsible for creating extremism, or that they havent faced it for decades, but it sure isn't going to make it go away. What's happening right now is unlikely to usher in an era of new peace. My point isn't to lay blame, but rather that the cycle is just repeating, which is a bad thing. Bad for Isreal, bad for the Palestinians, bad for the world. I don't have the answer, hopefully somebody amazing will.

No, it won't help bring a peace treaty. But that is not what Hamas wants.
Hamas does not want peace, compromise, or any political solution. Hamas has clearly stated that they will only accept the destruction of Israel.
It's impossible to negotiate with a side that has such an extreme position.

That argument that Israel responding to being attacked is fueling extremism is very pernicious, because it denies Israel it's right to self defense.
If any other country had been attacked like Israel was on the 7th, no one in the world would deny it's right to retaliation. And the right to defeat those who planned and commited such attack.
Only in the case of Israel, do we see the argument that Israel cannot do so. That Israel has to accept being constantly attacked and suffer without action.
Remember that even after the attacks on the 7th, both Hamas and Hezbollah were constantly shooting rockets and missiles against Israel.
Even during the 4 day humanitarian pause, Palestinians continued to shoot rockets into and commit terrorist attacks against Israel.
So the only option Israel has to weaken groups like Hamas, to the point they are a small threat and cannot repeat the attack on the 7th.

You might also want to remember that Israel has normalized relations with several Arab countries. One of them is Egypt, the country that lead the first Arab war against Israel.
Egypt has a border with Gaza, but instead of opening it for humanitarian relief, they reinforced it, to prevent Palestinians from entering the country. Because even Egypt knows they are trouble.
And no other Arab country is receiving Palestinians refugees from Gaza. Although some did in the 70's and 80s. But after these Palestinians refugees caused trouble in the countries they were received, these Arab countries stopped doing that.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

The problem with this plan is the war against Hamas will create another Hamas down the road. I don't see the end.

This is a legitimate concern, but it's important to remember that since Hamas controls the education system in Gaza and indoctrinates children to hate Jews and Israel from a very young age, they were already creating another Hamas down the road. So the question becomes "is it possible to at least lower the rate of radicalization by removing their influence on the population?"

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Not necessarily. You have the example of both Germany and Japan after 1945 to see how the whole society can be de-radicalized. Having Arabs being shown examples of Hamas atrocities can be a good start, the whole society should recognize how they were an instrument and passive enabler to racial hate. Then I mentioned UN administration because unfortunately any foundations of democracy are yet too weak to take hold without being enforced.

The UN should have no part in any future attempts to administer and rehabilitate Gaza. They've proven to be not merely incapable, but actively harmful to this process.
In a just world the entire organization would be audited by independent investigators after this war, and ultimately defunded by democracies across the globe, with a new organization taking its place. Third world countries and fascist dictatorships can continue supporting the charade that is the UN, but the rest of the world should have no part in it any more.

 

[Toots]

Peace does sell, it's actually the driver for all economical growth in every Muslim country that exports oil, etc. North Korea/Iran/Russia all have shitty economies.

You are right, i should have said peace doesn't sell as much as war.
One could argue that most war in the middle east are fought to gain control of raw materials for exportation. So first a war then peace so the winner can exploit what he gained from the war, and then war again.
But im extremely simplifying the whole process of course.

What is crazy in the hamas terror acts and subsequent declaration of war is they stand to gain absolutely nothing. I think it's more of a "mass suicide by cops" than anything else. I said early on that the only way i could make sense of this (in a political standpoint, since the morality of it is alien to anyone civilised) is that hamas leaders decided to martyr their whole country for whatever reason. It makes no political sense.

 

[ADiTAR]

You are right, i should have said peace doesn't sell as much as war.
One could argue that most war in the middle east are fought to gain control of raw materials for exportation. So first a war then peace so the winner can exploit what he gained from the war, and then war again.
But im extremely simplifying the whole process of course.

What is crazy in the hamas terror acts and subsequent declaration of war is they stand to gain absolutely nothing. I think it's more of a "mass suicide by cops" than anything else. I said early on that the only way i could make sense of this (in a political standpoint, since the morality of it is alien to anyone civilised) is that hamas leaders decided to martyr their whole country for whatever reason. It makes no political sense.

That's because it's a religious cult, and that does mean by any means necessary. There's no rhyme or reason for it besides wanting to kill all Jews, they literally say it and the sad thing is that it seems like people don't hear it and look for other motives.

 

[Lukaku's First Touch]

"From the river to the sea". Nice of the IDF to bring the sea to them by request.

I wonder what the damage will be underground from all that water flowing in.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

"From the river to the sea". Nice of the IDF to bring the sea to them by request.

I wonder what the damage will be underground from all that water flowing in.

From the river to the sea has become "through the river to the sea".

 

[jason10mm]

Peace does sell, it's actually the driver for all economical growth in every Muslim country that exports oil, etc. North Korea/Iran/Russia all have shitty economies.

But who's buying?

But seriously, that is part of the problem, these places have an invaluable commodity that ensures an uninterrupted cash flow. Hell, folks are buying Russian natgas at the same timenthey are giving billions in aid to Ukraine. The world's energy economy is sooo screwed up.

 

[wa600]

I never said Isreal's response is solely responsible for creating extremism, or that they havent faced it for decades, but it sure isn't going to make it go away. What's happening right now is unlikely to usher in an era of new peace. My point isn't to lay blame, but rather that the cycle is just repeating, which is a bad thing. Bad for Isreal, bad for the Palestinians, bad for the world. I don't have the answer, hopefully somebody amazing will.

Lets just rewind time back to Oct 7th and pretend Israels reaction would have been a very different one. Instead of going into Gaza, in a parallel universe they actually made a deal with Hamas: Hamas releases all hostages and Israel releases all palastinian prisoners they have, furthermore a ceasefire is agreed on.

What after that? Is Hamas / Islamic Jihad never going to terrorize anyone again? Or are they immediately going to plan for their next attack? They are not going to stop with this until Israel ceases to exist, are they?
And what message would this send to the civilian population? Terrorism absolutely(!!) works to achieve your goals. I'd argue this action would actually lead to more Hamas support (in numbers as well) since this success would be widely celebrated within the palestinian population.
I do wish the palestinian population would start to realize that their 'leaders' action didnt achieve anything and made life so much worse for everyone. But these people just seem blinded in their hatred since they never seem to have learned from their past errors.

 

[THE DUCK]

Again, based on.the responses received, I wasn't laying blame, and none of the answers lead to a road to peace, inaction or action, that was really my point, that there is no clear direction that seems to lead to that. Again hopefully something can figured out long term.

 

[Happosai]

I never said Isreal's response is solely responsible for creating extremism, or that they havent faced it for decades, but it sure isn't going to make it go away. What's happening right now is unlikely to usher in an era of new peace. My point isn't to lay blame, but rather that the cycle is just repeating, which is a bad thing. Bad for Isreal, bad for the Palestinians, bad for the world. I don't have the answer, hopefully somebody amazing will.

Want the cycle of repeating to stop? Then stand behind Israel to defeat Hamas. We're not jumping a page ahead to organization that 'may' or 'may not' arise afterward. Of course there will be other enemies of Israel. It's Islamic nations who've wanted the mass genocide of all Jews and to overthrow Israel since the 7th-century. Where do you see Israel not seeking peaceful solution in history? They've done nothing but offer solutions and these are being offered to a medieval cult which rejects peace.

Note: There are no palestinians. It's not a state, it's an occupied territory which was permissible only by the care and authority of Israel. This was after the fact that they'd invaded the region shortly before and after Israel's statehood. To be clear again, there never has / never will be a state of palestine. They threw that opportunity away the moment they raise a hand against Israel.

Again, based on.the responses received, I wasn't laying blame, and none of the answers lead to a road to peace, inaction or action, that was really my point, that there is no clear direction that seems to lead to that. Again hopefully something can figured out long term.

There is a very clear direction. Total elimination of Hamas, tight control/security from within Gaza & the West Gate (which would need to be IDF as any other backfill could easily just be another Islamic extremist group) and eventual establishment of a power in those regions which is willing to cooperate with Israel. Until the first objective is cleared...no one's going to suddenly ceasefire (which would allow the display we saw a few weeks ago with Hamas botching up everything and back building); the fight will continue until every hostage, body of every hostage (for the families of the victims) and the target is totally annihilated. They brought 'the bad thing' (Hamas) and they're not being done dirty. They're feeling justice and paying for their crimes.

 

[THE DUCK]

Want the cycle of repeating to stop? Then stand behind Israel to defeat Hamas. We're not jumping a page ahead to organization that 'may' or 'may not' arise afterward. Of course there will be other enemies of Israel. It's Islamic nations who've wanted the mass genocide of all Jews and to overthrow Israel since the 7th-century. Where do you see Israel not seeking peaceful solution in history? They've done nothing but offer solutions and these are being offered to a medieval cult which rejects peace.

Note: There are no palestinians. It's not a state, it's an occupied territory which was permissible only by the care and authority of Israel. This was after the fact that they'd invaded the region shortly before and after Israel's statehood. To be clear again, there never has / never will be a state of palestine. They threw that opportunity away the moment they raise a hand against Israel.

There is a very clear direction. Total elimination of Hamas, tight control/security from within Gaza & the West Gate (which would need to be IDF as any other backfill could easily just be another Islamic extremist group) and eventual establishment of a power in those regions which is willing to cooperate with Israel. Until the first objective is cleared...no one's going to suddenly ceasefire (which would allow the display we saw a few weeks ago with Hamas botching up everything and back building); the fight will continue until every hostage, body of every hostage (for the families of the victims) and the target is totally annihilated. They brought 'the bad thing' (Hamas) and they're not being done dirty. They're feeling justice and paying for their crimes.

I dont think you fully grasp the situation. The current course won't end the problems, regardless of who is responsible.

 

[delirium trigger]

The whole "you shouldn't do x because it will only create more terrorists," has always been jihad propaganda. It means one side gets to do all the terrorizing they want without retaliation. Rigged game.

The extremists fight wars like a ten year old makes up the rules to the game as he plays.

Israel is setting the correct precedent. If you want to come into the country and abduct innocent people and hold them ransom, well, all your leadership will hang. Bet extremists think twice next time.

 

[winjer]

Remember when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, al-Husseini, went to Berlin, to meet with Hitler to seek an alliance against the Jews and the British.
This is the kind of extremism that Palestinians had against Jews, even before the creation of Israel.
So let's stop pretending that it's Israel self defense, that is fueling extremism in the palestinian populace.

 

[delirium trigger]

The sad thing is the western world, not the muslim world, will actually spend billions to rebuild that dump for them with zero thanks given.

The western world owes palestine nothing. If they'd like to save their precious land from further destruction, their elected leaders can surrender and stand trial for their crimes.

"ceasefire"

Put your big boy pants on and accept defeat. This is how war works.

 

[winjer]

The sad thing is the western world, not the muslim world, will actually spend billions to rebuild that dump for them with zero thanks given.

The western world owes palestine nothing. If they'd like to save their precious land from further destruction, their elected leaders can surrender and stand trial for their crimes.

"ceasefire"

Put your big boy pants on and accept defeat. This is how war works.

Sorry, but I have to correct you.
The western world will send billions to rebuild Gaza, and most of it will go to the leaders of Hamas, while hiding in foreign countries.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The sad thing is the western world, not the muslim world, will actually spend billions to rebuild that dump for them with zero thanks given.

The western world owes palestine nothing. If they'd like to save their precious land from further destruction, their elected leaders can surrender and stand trial for their crimes.

"ceasefire"

Put your big boy pants on and accept defeat. This is how war works.

Pretty much. Thats the western way.

You got a bunch of poor and homeless people, while edging up taxes every year and governments will say they are broke and need multiyear analysis to see if it's fiscally doable for their own citizens.

Yet in global uproars for foreigners halfway around the world, suddenly the federal piggybank is bottomless. Go figure.

 

[LegendOfKage]

I love that Rogan watched this on his podcast, exposing this exchange to an absolute ton of people who otherwise might never have heard it.

 

[BadBurger]

It looks like the war is just about over. Israel has cornered Hamas into a few strongholds, and they're flooding their tunnels.

I just hope that somehow the remaining hostages get out alive.

 

[Happosai]

I dont think you fully grasp the situation. The current course won't end the problems, regardless of who is responsible.

I most certainly do fully grasp the situation which isn't a situation...it's war. If you feel the current course to eliminate Hamas or by the means I stated aren't a solution. What's your solution? Please share.

Unsure why you wrote: regardless of who is responsible. Is it not clear who is responsible for this war, the bloodshed, the death of innocents to you already?

 

[DragoonKain]

The first minute or two is about Elon, but then he gives his opinion on the schools stuff going on and then it's a convo with Dan Senor and Douglas Murray who's fucking awesome. Worth listening to, only an hour.

 

[THE DUCK]

I most certainly do fully grasp the situation which isn't a situation...it's war. If you feel the current course to eliminate Hamas or by the means I stated aren't a solution. What's your solution? Please share.

Unsure why you wrote: regardless of who is responsible. Is it not clear who is responsible for this war, the bloodshed, the death of innocents to you already?

The whole point of my post at all was to highlight the fact that I nor anyone else in this world we live in seems to have a solution. You seem intent to twist words.

I'm not saying it's clear or not clear, I'm simply not stating my position on the subject. You are, and thats fine for you.

 

[ADiTAR]

The whole point of my post at all was to highlight the fact that I nor anyone else in this world we live in seems to have a solution. You seem intent to twist words.

I'm not saying it's clear or not clear, I'm simply not stating my position on the subject. You are, and thats fine for you.

There are solution, though most don't want them.

If Palestinians move on already from trying to destroy Israel after losing every single time, then the world can move on and have peace. They'll get a state in whatever Israel is willing to give them. They lost all their power and bargaining chips.

 

[Havoc2049]

The whole point of my post at all was to highlight the fact that I nor anyone else in this world we live in seems to have a solution. You seem intent to twist words.

I'm not saying it's clear or not clear, I'm simply not stating my position on the subject. You are, and thats fine for you.

We are seeing a solution happening right now, with the destruction of Hamas in the Gaza Strip by the Israeli military. It also sounds like Israel will exert greater control over Gaza, so that thousands of rockets can't be launched at Isreal from Gaza and an attack like what happened on Oct. 7th won't happen again.

 

[FunkMiller]

The whole point of my post at all was to highlight the fact that I nor anyone else in this world we live in seems to have a solution.

Eh? The solution is the two state solution. It always has been, and always will be. The problem is Hamas don’t want that.

The only thing preventing a peaceful solution is Hamas.

 

[THE DUCK]

I see a few responses, in regard to two state solutions, hamas etc. The problem is, none of those solutions is likely to bring long lasting peace. I'd like to think so, it just seems very unlikely. Just an opinion and I hope it's wrong.

 

[winjer]

I see a few responses, in regard to two state solutions, hamas etc. The problem is, none of those solutions is likely to bring long lasting peace. I'd like to think so, it just seems very unlikely. Just an opinion and I hope it's wrong.

That's because the Palestinian side demands complete genocide of the Jewish people. To the point of siding with Hitler during WW2.
The Palestinians did send a few soldiers to assist the Nazi regime fight in Europe, convinced that Hitler would win the war in Europe and then would help eliminating the Jews in Jerusalem.
Just consider that if the wish of people like al-Husseini were met, we would have the complete genocide of all Jews in Europe, followed by the genocide of all in the middle east.

Now consider that even Emir Faisal was in favor of the creation of a semi-independent Israeli state in his kingdom, to be created after WW1.
Once again, the ones opposing it were the Palestinians.

How about we consider that by 1948, the British had officially given up on the Belford declaration and pursued a single state solution, with a democratic system were both Jews and Palestinians would be represented.
Once again, it failed because the Palestinians denied it.

Then the UN decided to create a two state solution, were both the west and the soviet block voted for this solution.
The Jews accepted this compromise. The ones that refused it, were the Palestinians.

Or let us remind us of the groundbreaking accords of Camp Davis, that for a moment seemed to be the perfect solution.
A lot was offered to the Palestinians to accept it. The USA, EU and Israel were bending over backwards, to finally get a peaceful.
Still, Arafat and the Palestinians refused it, because there is a significant portion of Palestinians that demand the destruction of Israel.

Today, while Israel is normalizing relations with several Arab countries, the Palestinians still demand genocide and continue to attack Israel with everything they have.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I see a few responses, in regard to two state solutions, hamas etc. The problem is, none of those solutions is likely to bring long lasting peace. I'd like to think so, it just seems very unlikely. Just an opinion and I hope it's wrong.

One of the things the US is asking for, which could be a good idea if executed correctly, is involvement of other Arab countries in governing and rehabilitating Gaza after the war.

Such involvement would realistically have two conflicting effects: certain elements in these countries will inevitably side with Israel and apply further pressure on Palestinians to deradicalize and adopt a more secular social order, while others will side with the Palestinians and apply pressure on Israel to offer more land in exchange for less guarantees from Palestinians. Israel or the US would then ask for these countries to make other concessions of their own instead, as a form of insurance.

As long as western powers can keep this balance in check, it could result in a more responsible middle east, and in a greater degree of pragmatic dialogue between countries about the future of the region.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

THE DUCK I would be interested in hearing more details about your own hopes for the region. I personally don't think that there is no room for criticism of Israel as long as it's constructive.

For example, I believe that Palestinians deserve territorial continuity in the West Bank (assuming an end to violent attacks against Israel), and that once Gaza is no longer a threat, it should be connected via underground highway to the West Bank so Palestinians can freely move between the two areas.

 

[THE DUCK]

THE DUCK I would be interested in hearing more details about your own hopes for the region. I personally don't think that there is no room for criticism of Israel as long as it's constructive.

For example, I believe that Palestinians deserve territorial continuity in the West Bank (assuming an end to violent attacks against Israel), and that once Gaza is no longer a threat, it should be connected via underground highway to the West Bank so Palestinians can freely move between the two areas.

I'm not sure the solution. With so much recent civilian losses on both sides, it's going to be hard for either to just move on. The history is long and seems to just recycle.
I'm definitely no expert on the area, but I do see troubled waters ahead. Hopefully smarter people than myself are at work.

 

[MisterFalcon]

A tunnel from Gaza to the West Bank for road traffic would be the longest in the world by far. That's never going to happen.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

A tunnel from Gaza to the West Bank for road traffic would be the longest in the world by far. That's never going to happen.

Plenty of railway tunnels are longer. Road tunnels are apparently not, that's true. But technology is advancing, and if it's ultimately impossible then some compromise will be reached, such as a number of shorter, connecting tunnels with as minimal as possible security checks at a border crossing that would be set up along the way.
It's ultimately a question of how committed Palestinians are to their own peaceful economic success instead of violence.

 

[LordOfChaos]

 

[Havoc2049]

THE DUCK I would be interested in hearing more details about your own hopes for the region. I personally don't think that there is no room for criticism of Israel as long as it's constructive.

For example, I believe that Palestinians deserve territorial continuity in the West Bank (assuming an end to violent attacks against Israel), and that once Gaza is no longer a threat, it should be connected via underground highway to the West Bank so Palestinians can freely move between the two areas.

I'm sure the terror tunnel builders wouldn't try to exploit that underground highway at all. A tunnel like that would create a nightmare of security risks for Israel.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I'm not sure the solution. With so much recent civilian losses on both sides, it's going to be hard for either to just move on. The history is long and seems to just recycle.
I'm definitely no expert on the area, but I do see troubled waters ahead. Hopefully smarter people than myself are at work.

Wars can either act as a facilitator of peace or of future wars, it's up to those participating in the conflict to decide how they wish to move forward. So far, Palestinians have chosen war over peace, apparently because their leaders have more to gain from it, and are willing to live with its costs.

As long as Palestinian leaders believe this, they will continue to choose war. And as long as the people prefer poverty and a corrupt and reckless government, they will get just that.

If you believe there are enough civilians that desire something else, you should support removing the current government, ie. Hamas, by whatever means you see fit, and help these people form a government instead.

The bottom line is you don't have to support Israel, you can find other ways to support Palestinians who resist Hamas from within.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I'm sure the terror tunnel builders wouldn't try to exploit that underground highway at all. A tunnel like that would create a nightmare of security risks for Israel.

The scenario I described is part of a long term vision for the future, one where Hamas is eradicated. I don't expect anything like it as long as they are still in the picture. The point is to show Palestinians and their supporters that there are alternatives to the conditions they exist in today.

 

[NickFire]

I'm not sure the solution. With so much recent civilian losses on both sides, it's going to be hard for either to just move on. The history is long and seems to just recycle.
I'm definitely no expert on the area, but I do see troubled waters ahead. Hopefully smarter people than myself are at work.

Just stop ignoring the history and the solution is obvious. The world needs to stop trying to justify or rationalize terrorism. Cut off all aid and support for terrorism. Stop laying cover for terrorism by suggesting Israel shouldn’t be wiping out the terrorists who raped and murdered its people en masse on 10/7. Stop giving terrorist supporters hope that continuing with business as usual will ever get them anywhere.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

One of the biggest tragedies for Palestinians is that the more they continue to believe in their own narrative that Jews are colonialists hell bent on transferring all of them to Egypt or Jordan, the more they help fulfill that narrative. Israel certainly has a minority of religious fanatics, and today they are even represented in government. But the reason for this is that it is becoming increasingly difficult for Israeli citizens to believe that Palestinians care more about sovereignty than territorial maximalism fueled by murderous hate.

So if you want to argue that Israel is radicalizing Palestinians, it's important to point out that the opposite is also true.

 

[Happosai]

The whole point of my post at all was to highlight the fact that I nor anyone else in this world we live in seems to have a solution. You seem intent to twist words.

I'm not saying it's clear or not clear, I'm simply not stating my position on the subject. You are, and thats fine for you.

The Western world doesn't have solutions if that's the position. U.N. has been very supporting of Hamas and has ignored Israel almost since their inception as a nation in 1948. Not intent on twisting words, mind you...discussion boards are also to challenge sound response and...discussion. I joined the conversation of the thread on like page 9 but have been reading since page 1. All those who've been reading are well aware at this point who's in the right (Israel), who's just plain wrong (Hamas) and what possible solutions there are. Read all the posts of those who've already answered your questions 3 times over since yesterday. You're ignoring them and going back to the repetition: there's no solution for 'both sides'.

THE DUCK I would be interested in hearing more details about your own hopes for the region. I personally don't think that there is no room for criticism of Israel as long as it's constructive.

For example, I believe that Palestinians deserve territorial continuity in the West Bank (assuming an end to violent attacks against Israel), and that once Gaza is no longer a threat, it should be connected via underground highway to the West Bank so Palestinians can freely move between the two areas.

And I may not agree entirely with that consideration for solution because I myself have a bias. My personal bias is that all the lands should be retaken by Israel (West Bank & Gaza) post war. But I like that you actually participate in discussion without trying to cancel others out. That's sorta why some of us have been following this. We all want to see the outcome but we also want updates from ground zero for those of us not living in Israel.

I'm not sure the solution. With so much recent civilian losses on both sides, it's going to be hard for either to just move on. The history is long and seems to just recycle.
I'm definitely no expert on the area, but I do see troubled waters ahead. Hopefully smarter people than myself are at work.

You stated the history is long and just pause there for a moment. Go back to OPs post on the history of Israel dealing with rebellious nations fighting for the land which has been a heritage to Jews for far longer than 2 millennia. Now you say there are civilian losses on both sides. This both sides argument is a weak attempt to place Israel and Gaza on equal footing. You've already been told this by others but this is my last post if we're just going to go back to the "there are no solutions" or "both sides" rhetoric. And what you've been told: Israel is the victim of this. The innocent are the Jews in Israel who were attending a concert, eating breakfast at home and mind their own business who were brutally massacred, raped, tortured, taken hostage by Hamas terrorist and some palestine citizens who support the Islamic violence. Hamas then bombed their own hospital (blaming it on Israel) killing their citizens whereas on the contrary; Israel sent their own medical support in to assist Gaza patients at Al-Shifa hospital. Israel send warnings out over 2-weeks in advance before ground invasion. Yet Hamas shared social media videos of their 'children shields'. Israel has done everything from the start of this to minimize any collateral damage including protecting Gaza 'civilians' in their exit. Hamas saw IDF assisting in rescuing the 'innocent in Gaza' and started shooting anyone. Hamas has also been filmed attacking the 'innocent' to steal food, supplies and money being sent in by 'relief organizations'. When you say civilian losses on both sides, don't even attempt to insinuate that anyone more than Hamas has been killing their own. For a war, IDF has proven with numbers the minimum level of casualties but they've lost plenty of their own. I get updates daily on IDF soldiers or Israeli hostages who have been killed. This IS NOT two-sided and everyone knows that.

There is one side and that's Israel decimating Hamas.

And for solutions let me put this close to home if you're truly interesting in knowing. If you had a cult group of violent members living in your neighborhood who'd kidnapped your wife, tossed grenades over your fence to attempt to kill you and yet all the while...you were paying for their electricity, gas, internet, water and infrastructure. Would you feel that as a two-sided situation? Now you know what it's like to be an Israeli and why all solutions are hard solutions but if you've really read history. Read who has won nearly every one of these wars against Israel. The Jews of Israel have almost always been the victor for hundreds of years and they will be again. Once war ends, solution begins. Again, this is discussion and you jumped into the thread stating there's no solution. You have your answers and I'm done here. Have a good one.

 

[F0rneus]

"But Hamas are good guys right?" - American college student

 

[StreetsofBeige]

One of the biggest tragedies for Palestinians is that the more they continue to believe in their own narrative that Jews are colonialists hell bent on transferring all of them to Egypt or Jordan, the more they help fulfill that narrative. Israel certainly has a minority of religious fanatics, and today they are even represented in government. But the reason for this is that it is becoming increasingly difficult for Israeli citizens to believe that Palestinians care more about sovereignty than territorial maximalism fueled by murderous hate.

So if you want to argue that Israel is radicalizing Palestinians, it's important to point out that the opposite is also true.

To me the biggest tragedy is that is seems every country around Gaza doesn't like them and wont let them in their borders. They got to be the most disliked 2M people on Earth that even when a country is counterattacked by leveling buildings and there's tons of civilians looking for safe haven, the countries still block them from coming over.

 

[tommib]

Four arrested in Europe over alleged cross-border Hamas terrorism plot

Three held in Germany and one in Netherlands over plans for possible attacks on Jewish institutions, prosecutor says

www.theguardian.com

Four people have been arrested in Germany and the Netherlands on suspicion of being part of a cross-border Hamas terrorism plot that German federal prosecutors said aimed to target Jewish institutions in Europe.

Three others were arrested in Denmark on apparently related terrorism offences, and while police in Copenhagen were more circumspect about the details, the prime minister, Mette Frederiksen, said the threat was “as serious as it gets”.

 

[Woggleman]

If Hamas starts attacking in America and Europe they should be dealt with the same way we dealt with Osama Bin Laden.

 

[Happosai]

If Hamas starts attacking in America and Europe they should be dealt with the same way we dealt with Osama Bin Laden.

I'm unsure that'll happen on U.S. soil. The FBI's been quiet on all this but they know which individuals in the U.S. for the sake of speaking are 'on watch'. I wouldn't doubt some have been pulled aside from the riots & mobs for private meets. If they were to do this though, there'll then be no excuse for anyone defending them and every Westerner with half-a-mind will understand what Israel's dealing with. Not sure it'd take as long as it did for Bin Laden. I mean, that rat fled to several basement hiding places and managed to live free several years before the SEALS got him. U.S. intelligence knows who the top leaders are of Hamas and UN is protecting them. If they weren't so involved (the UN) themselves; they would have stopped sending money over and protecting them with buzzwords like "Islamophobia" to cancel any criticism.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

To me the biggest tragedy is that is seems every country around Gaza doesn't like them and wont let them in their borders. They got to be the most disliked 2M people on Earth that even when a country is counterattacked by leveling buildings and there's tons of civilians looking for safe haven, the countries still block them from coming over.

That's an important point to bring up in the wider perspective of the Palestinian plight (ie. not just the part that concerns Israel). The interpretation I offered earlier in this thread is that fanatical religious Islamism is deeply rooted in their population, resulting in a hostile attitude even towards other Arab countries that aren't as fanatical as they are.

It should be very informative to look up exactly what representatives in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq had to say about their Palestinian refugees, so I'll be doing just that.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

And I may not agree entirely with that consideration for solution because I myself have a bias. My personal bias is that all the lands should be retaken by Israel (West Bank & Gaza) post war. But I like that you actually participate in discussion without trying to cancel others out. That's sorta why some of us have been following this. We all want to see the outcome but we also want updates from ground zero for those of us not living in Israel.

I think it would be amazing for Israel to have all of our ancestral land back. My attachment to it comes more from a secular position of interest in history and archeology than from a religious position of worship, but I would absolutely be in favor of such a proposition if I thought it was in any way realistic.

Living in Israel (and particularly in Jerusalem) for most of my life, I simply don't see it as a possibility worth fighting countless more wars for, if peace and coexistence can be achieved at a lower cost.

It's partially a pragmatic consideration: Gaining control over the entire Gaza strip and the West Bank would result in a much bloodier and lengthy war than this one.
And partially comes from having made deeply valuable friendships and having met enough honest, well-educated, practical, intelligent and good natured Arabs and Palestinians (mostly in east Jerusalem and northern Israel) to know it is possible to not only live side by side, but actually thrive together.

My personal experience may not be representative of the majority in Gaza and the West Bank, but I'm still an optimist when it comes to believing in people's potential to grow and change over decades and generations. Germany and Japan are examples. Examples in the Muslim world are not as common but they do exist and are growing. I can provide media from middle eastern countries during this conflict which supports this: Certain muslim news reporters who are much more fair and pragmatic than many of their western colleagues.

And a final anecdote: recently a woman pointed out to me that fifty years ago Egypt was Israel's mortal enemy, yet when our hostages were being released she was able to sigh a huge sigh of relief upon hearing that they have left Gaza and entered Egypt.

I add this to say that the problem with the popular liberal western attitude of tolerance is not that it is fundamentally flawed but that it is ridiculously impatient. These things take generations, not a presidential term or two.

 

[Happosai]

I think it would be amazing for Israel to have all of our ancestral land back. My attachment to it comes more from a secular position of interest in history and archeology than from a religious position of worship, but I would absolutely be in favor of such a proposition if I thought it was in any way realistic.

Living in Israel (and particularly in Jerusalem) for most of my life, I simply don't see it as a possibility worth fighting countless more wars for, if peace and coexistence can be achieved at a lower cost.

It's partially a pragmatic consideration: Gaining control over the entire Gaza strip and the West Bank would result in a much bloodier and lengthy war than this one.
And partially comes from having made deeply valuable friendships and having met enough honest, well-educated, practical, intelligent and good natured Arabs and Palestinians (mostly in east Jerusalem and northern Israel) to know it is possible to not only live side by side, but actually thrive together.

My personal experience may not be representative of the majority in Gaza and the West Bank, but I'm still an optimist when it comes to believing in people's potential to grow and change over decades and generations. Germany and Japan are examples. Examples in the Muslim world are not as common but they do exist and are growing. I can provide media from middle eastern countries during this conflict which supports this: Certain muslim news reporters who are much more fair and pragmatic than many of their western colleagues.

And a final anecdote: recently a woman pointed out to me that fifty years ago Egypt was Israel's mortal enemy, yet when our hostages were being released she was able to sigh a huge sigh of relief upon hearing that they have left Gaza and entered Egypt.

I add this to say that the problem with the popular liberal western attitude of tolerance is not that it is fundamentally flawed but that it is ridiculously impatient. These things take generations, not a presidential term or two.

I think it's a process that'd take more time, resources, backing, strong leadership and of course...money. West Bank wouldn't be so easily won over but we know it's not all sunshine over there. It was terrorists in the West Bank that publicly hung 'spies' from cranes, wasn't it? My studies on the history of Islam and the deep rooted hatred of Israel & Jews it why I keep that small hope that the land will somehow all be back in Israel's hands.

There are other Arabic nations out there who don't seem to hate Israel. Yet, if it Egypt were to take control (just an example) and an Islamic jihadist extreme group overthrew Egypt's current leaders and established Sharia...we'd be back to square one.

All in all, I think everyone expects a fast decisive action to be taken post war (after Israel wins, of course). It will not be fast and will likely turn into a clean-up project several years after with lengthy negotiations and the usual useless pushback by the UN.