Support NeoGAF

[Punished Miku]

I also need to say, people who don't live here don't understand how traumatizing this event was for all of us.

You grow up in a country that was build on the ashes of the Holocaust, saying never again. We will never let ourselves be weak. We built one of the strongest countries in the world in just 75years. Not just army wise, but tech, food, agriculture, science, etc.

We believed IDF is our defender, and we thought it was so good, we reduced the length of service, reduced the amount of people needed to run it, and so on.

Then you wake up to this slap in the face. I was supposed to celebrate a friend's bday. I had to run to my building's stairway every time an alarm went off, which was almost every hour that day. I had to tell people who kept Shabbat what was going on.

The bubble has burst, we let our guard down, we failed. This trauma will live on for a long long time. Losing faith in our number one institution. I can't explain how difficult that is to live with this failure, and it's been on going for 6 months. I still cry, not as much, but it happens. And we still have 132 people there, women, men, elderly, a toddler, and a baby.

What you don't understand is the enormous cost paid by the US for everything your country does. For decades the whole world has tried to point out international law violations and only the US vetoes it, which fuels blowback for us. Part of the motivation for 9/11 is blowback for that. Billions for free annually in aid. Now the US is literally legally on the hook for potential crimes from aiding genocide while you talk about scare tactics. The diplomatic cost is impossible to quantify. We could honestly do fine for our own interests aligning with all middle eastern countries, even Iran. But instead we're mortal enemies just to back you guys up and we really get nothing for it. You didnt seem like you were crying when Israel just bombed a foreign government embassy. You were making a Lord of the Rings joke about it. Iran's backlash for that is likely to hit US military. That was an insane WW3 level of provocation and you treat it like a joke when its 100x worse than the 7 aid workers. It was literally right next to the Canadian embassy. The blowback from the last 6 months will create an entire new generation of extremists ready to kill Americans for decades all across the middle east. It helps provide China and Russia with political cover for imperialism since we've obliterated our world standing on this. None of this is even touching the morality of the situation. Your country lives in a decades long propaganda bubble and treats its only "ally" like complete shit. Even if you were nice to us, we get literally nothing out of this.

This is literally the 1st time in my lifetime I've ever seen anyone in the US government complain about Israel and the reaction we've gotten really shows us how much our interests seems to matter to your government. Zero.

 

[Dr. Claus]

I don't get it, what is a higher standard? one mistake and that's it, that's where it falls? I guess no army has ever made mistakes. Those are unrealistic expectations.

Israel was painted as the villain for people from even before the war, and it's not really Israel, it's the Jews. Israel is an excuse as we see protests in synagogs and other Jewish places. It's just a shame those people have succeeded and now when an election is supposedly in the balance we see US changing its tune to demand Israel ceasefire, and nothing of Hamas. It's all politics, but for us it's life.

I think it's ok to lose your cool when you see what a terrorist group did to your people. If this happened to you and yours I doubt you'd keep a level head.

Many of us are Americans who lived through 9/11. We remember vividly what a terrorist group can do to our people. Obviously, the extent and barbaric acts were nothing close to alike, but we still remember the anger, sadness, vitriol, and violent demands that we either engaged in or promoted in the following years, if not decade following it. The US was also under a spotlight for every missed target, every civilian death, every questionable act that went on in it's war against terrorism.

Sure, there are some folks who will use anything as ammo to paint Israel as the enemy due to deep seated antisemitic beliefs, but many of us want to see Israel win out. We want to see terrorists get their just desserts and Israel and the Jewish people prosper. However, we need to hold the country to the higher standard, to showcase that those of us who fight for true freedom, justice, and the defense of innocent lives will stand above the lowest of terrorist scum. It isn't fair, but this is how the world works. Israel will be put under great scrutiny, which is why when something like this occurs we need to ensure that proper actions are taken place to prevent it from happening again. I don't believe Israel are evil, I believe they do everything they can to do right by it's citizens and by the innocent and abused that are held hostage by the Hamas Government.

I am not Jewish, but I continue to work with and help in any little way I can the Jewish communities around me. I don't want to see more ammunition being used by antisemites to attack the people I call friends. So please, don't mistake the criticism on this incident on GAF as anything other than allies wanting to see Israel win completely above board and proving to all the hateful, bigoted organizations and groups trying to paint them as genocidal warmongers that there is no doubt that they are the ones who are righteous and good in this fight. That Hamas are the purest of subhuman trash.

 

[Ozriel]

It's just a shame those people have succeeded and now when an election is supposedly in the balance we see US changing its tune to demand Israel ceasefire, and nothing of Hamas. It's all politics, but for us it's life.

The US has bent over backward and certainly gone an extra mile in support of Israel. Made a shit ton of enemies, lost massive ground in the geopolitical tug of war with China/Russia and has to work with the specter of being drawn into an expanded conflict in the Middle East. And yes, the political angle can’t really be ignored.

Stakeholder management is key in everything you do, and I’m not sure it’s a winning strategy to consistently put them on the spot. There’s no shortfall in weapons delivery even with all that.

The U.S. is paying a very significant price for supporting Israel and the fact you can’t see or acknowledge this is surprising.

I don’t think anyone believes that a U.S. call for ceasefire excludes Hamas. C’mon.

I think it's ok to lose your cool when you see what a terrorist group did to your people. If this happened to you and yours I doubt you'd keep a level head.

By all means, hang the terrorists by the balls. Mods have done a good job of getting rid of the Hamas apologists here…so you’ll certainly not find anyone shedding a tear for the Hamas.

Collateral damage is one thing. But deliberately trying to kill Children and elderly isn’t what you should be espousing.

 

[ADiTAR]

What you don't understand is the enormous cost paid by the US for everything your country does. For decades the whole world has tried to point out international law violations and only the US vetoes it, which fuels blowback for us. Part of the motivation for 9/11 is blowback for that. Billions for free annually in aid. Now the US is literally legally on the hook for potential crimes from aiding genocide while you talk about scare tactics. The diplomatic cost is impossible to quantify. We could honestly do fine for our own interests aligning with all middle eastern countries, even Iran. But instead we're mortal enemies just to back you guys up and we really get nothing for it. You didnt seem like you were crying when Israel just bombed a foreign government embassy. You were making a Lord of the Rings joke about it. Iran's backlash for that is likely to hit US military. That was an insane WW3 level of provocation and you treat it like a joke when its 100x worse than the 7 aid workers. It was literally right next to the Canadian embassy. The blowback from the last 6 months will create an entire new generation of extremists ready to kill Americans for decades all across the middle east. It helps provide China and Russia with political cover for imperialism since we've obliterated our world standing on this. None of this is even touching the morality of the situation. Your country lives in a decades long propaganda bubble and treats its only "ally" like complete shit. Even if you were nice to us, we get literally nothing out of this.

This is literally the 1st time in my lifetime I've ever seen anyone in the US government complain about Israel and the reaction we've gotten really shows us how much our interests seems to matter to your government. Zero.

There is no genocide happening in Gaza, get off TikTok.

These countries hate the West and America, Israel is just an excuse. It's cute you think it's because of us. It's adorable you think that the last 6 months would produce extremists who wouldn't already go on the path of terrorism. When 9/11 happened, that's also because of us? The Bataclan concert? the recent ISIS terror attack in Russia? You're living a dream like scenario and basically blame Israel for extremists? I can't believe people actually acknowledged your post as anything but demented.

Israel has done everything its only ally asked it too. Everything at a great cost to us. We allowed Qatar to give money to Hamas thinking they would move from terror to govern, we evacuated Gaza in 2005, we moved food and fuel to the people who butchered us. And much more. So far, seems like all those failed in achieving the right result. Trust me, if pulling out of Gaza proved successful and they were a functioning independent place, we would have already pulled out of the West Bank. No on in Israel wants to deal with this shit, and truth is, no one in the world wants to deal with Gaza either. Egypt itself has basically tripled it's defense against Gazans coming in.

You don't give us money for shits and giggles, the money given is returned to the US as we buy military stuff. It doesn't go into Israel's coffers. Not to mention the shared intel, and what used to be aligning strategies of democracy.

The Abraham accords, who are still strong, showed that the world was in decades of propaganda thinking that only thru resolving the Palestine issue will result in peace in the middle east.

Iran is in an open conflict with Israel, using its proxies to harm us, we have every right to take out terrorists everywhere. US also did it.

 

[ADiTAR]

Collateral damage is one thing. But deliberately trying to kill Children and elderly isn’t what you should be espousing.

We don't deliberately try and kill children and elderly. Me and him can say what we want here because of our trauma, but the IDF is handling it better while most people in Israel would've wanted an even harsher response.

But I can hold two thoughts at the same time in my head, and would have preferred that we give them a state already.

 

[EviLore]

Hamas supporters cite generational trauma as justification for murdering civilians too.

Calling starvation of two million civilians “just a scare tactic,” so you’d expect them to give up before thousands of children and elderly die suffering horribly? Or after? If it happened it would only be after. By that twisted logic, terrorism is also just a scare tactic. A relatively small number of innocent people die to achieve a desired political or military goal.

That’s what follows naturally when you decide that the ends justify the means. And it’s equally reprehensible as when the other team does it.

 

[ADiTAR]

Hamas supporters cite generational trauma as justification for murdering civilians too.

Calling starvation of two million civilians “just a scare tactic,” so you’d expect them to give up before thousands of children and elderly die suffering horribly? Or after? If it happened it would only be after. By that twisted logic, terrorism is also just a scare tactic. A relatively small number of innocent people die to achieve a desired political or military goal.

That’s what follows naturally when you decide that the ends justify the means. And it’s equally reprehensible as when the other team does it.

They had 250 of our people, now they have 132 and they rejected another ceasefire deal because there's no pressure on them. How else would you pressure them? what should we have done after 10/7?

 

[Jsisto]

I have nothing but respect and empathy for anyone this conflict has effected, including the posters here, but the conflation of any criticism of the state of Israel as antisemitism has to stop. It’s gone on far too long, it’s counterproductive to any constructive debate, and it’s NOT TRUE. We‘re reaching a point where that excuse has become so overplayed that it’s beginning to do real damage to Israel’s credibility, on top of the other things being discussed here. I’m not going to sit here and say antisemitism doesn’t exist. We all know it does. My mother is Jewish and dealt with it, it’s a real thing. But to say every free Palestine protest and every criticism of Israel’s handling of this war is antisemitism is gaslighting of the highest degree. The world is far more complicated than that. Israel is a world power now and absolutely should be held to a higher standard, just as the US is.

 

[Dr. Claus]

They had 250 of our people, now they have 132 and they rejected another ceasefire deal because there's no pressure on them. How else would you pressure them? what should we have done after 10/7?

Continuing doing targeted strikes against enemy compounds. Minimize civilian casualties. Targeted covert operations against the heads of Hamas.

Sure, starving them would be faster. So would bombing them. So would nuking them. However an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and then Israel would be no better than Hamas in the eyes of the majority of the world. Israel can't afford to lose their humanity. There is a reason why they haven't done what Dark has tried to push and demand.

 

[ADiTAR]

I have nothing but respect and empathy for anyone this conflict has effected, including the posters here, but the conflation of any criticism of the state of Israel as antisemitism has to stop. It’s gone on far too long, it’s counterproductive to any constructive debate, and it’s NOT TRUE. We‘re reaching a point where that excuse has become so overplayed that it’s beginning to do real damage to Israel’s credibility, on top of the other things being discussed here. I’m not going to sit here and say antisemitism doesn’t exist. We all know it does. My mother is Jewish and dealt with it, it’s a real thing. But to say every free Palestine protest and every criticism of Israel’s handling of this war is antisemitism is gaslighting of the highest degree. The world is far more complicated than that. Israel is a world power now and absolutely should be held to a higher standard, just as the US is.

Criticism of Israel is fine, I have lots of my own, but the protests are antisemitic 99% of the time. They call for intifada revolution, what do you think that means? They protest Jewish places, synagogs. None of them call for Hamas to surrender, you won't find any criticism of Hamas there, why?

 

[ADiTAR]

Continuing doing targeted strikes against enemy compounds. Minimize civilian casualties. Targeted covert operations against the heads of Hamas.

Sure, starving them would be faster. So would bombing them. So would nuking them. However an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and then Israel would be no better than Hamas in the eyes of the majority of the world. Israel can't afford to lose their humanity. There is a reason why they haven't done what Dark has tried to push and demand.

That's what Israel has done. I can't speak for Dark, but for me it's emotions. Thankfully people in charge are more level headed.

This isn't an eye for an eye situation. We had that for the past 19 years dealing with Hamas. This war is to end them.

 

[Dr. Claus]

I have nothing but respect and empathy for anyone this conflict has effected, including the posters here, but the conflation of any criticism of the state of Israel as antisemitism has to stop. It’s gone on far too long, it’s counterproductive to any constructive debate, and it’s NOT TRUE. We‘re reaching a point where that excuse has become so overplayed that it’s beginning to do real damage to Israel’s credibility, on top of the other things being discussed here. I’m not going to sit here and say antisemitism doesn’t exist. We all know it does. My mother is Jewish and dealt with it, it’s a real thing. But to say every free Palestine protest and every criticism of Israel’s handling of this war is antisemitism is gaslighting of the highest degree. The world is far more complicated than that. Israel is a world power now and absolutely should be held to a higher standard, just as the US is.

No one is suggesting you can't criticize Israel. That isn't the same as calling for Intifada, chanting "from the river to the sea", or suggesting that Hamas and Palestine are justified in their actions. Take a quick look at all the posters who have been banned from this thread and what they have been saying. Then take a look at all the posts that have been critical and haven't been banned.

 

[Jsisto]

Criticism of Israel is fine, I have lots of my own, but the protests are antisemitic 99% of the time. They call for intifada revolution, what do you think that means? They protest Jewish places, synagogs. None of them call for Hamas to surrender, you won't find any criticism of Hamas there, why?

There’s bad apples in every group. Those are the ones you’re going to see on film and that’s unfortunate. Just like the looters and rioters during BLM. Is it fair to say that all BLM protesters only wanted to burn cities down because that’s what we saw on the media? You can always count on extremists to show up to protests of any kind. We’re painting in broad brushes here. I’m pretty sure you could find plenty of people willing to criticize Hamas at these protests, but I don’t think you or I have been to one and questioned people.

 

[Dr. Claus]

That's what Israel has done. I can't speak for Dark, but for me it's emotions. Thankfully people in charge are more level headed.

This isn't an eye for an eye situation. We had that for the past 19 years dealing with Hamas. This war is to end them.

Exactly, that is my point. That is what Israel has done and what they should continue to do. They shouldn't stop until Hamas is eradicated.

What I, and others, are saying is that we shouldn't be pushing for starvation tactics, for complete indiscriminate carpet bombs. Emotions are high, that is why none of us really blame those who are frustrated, angry, sad, etc. However, we also need to remember to pull back and control those emotions, no matter how difficult it may be. We don't want to become like the people that caused us such great and deeply personal pain.

There’s bad apples in every group. Those are the ones you’re going to see on film and that’s unfortunate. Just like the looters and rioters during BLM. Is it fair to say that all BLM protesters only wanted to burn cities down because that’s what we saw on the media? You can always count on extremists to show up to protests of any kind. We’re painting in broad brushes here. I’m pretty sure you could find plenty of people willing to criticize Hamas at these protests, but I don’t think you or I have been to one and questioned people.

We have videos of many of these protests. There are hundreds of videos, photos, and more in this thread alone from across the world. From London to university campuses. Thousands of people chanting "From River To the Sea" and demanding Intifada. People attacking jewish residences, stores, and trying to harass innocent civilians based on their religious views or jewish heritage. This isn't something people are making broad strokes. This was a common sight at many Pro-Palestine rallies.

 

[Jsisto]

No one is suggesting you can't criticize Israel. That isn't the same as calling for Intifada, chanting "from the river to the sea", or suggesting that Hamas and Palestine are justified in their actions. Take a quick look at all the posters who have been banned from this thread and what they have been saying. Then take a look at all the posts that have been critical and haven't been banned.

To be clear, I’m talking generally not just about this forum. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. The Israeli government has absolutely used antisemitism as an excuse to deflect criticisms In the past and currently. That was the point I was trying to make. This tactic really doesn’t serve them or anyone well in the long run. It poisons the well of any debate and prevents any kind of good faith criticism.

 

[ADiTAR]

Exactly, that is my point. That is what Israel has done and what they should continue to do. They shouldn't stop until Hamas is eradicated.

What I, and others, are saying is that we shouldn't be pushing for starvation tactics, for complete indiscriminate carpet bombs. Emotions are high, that is why none of us really blame those who are frustrated, angry, sad, etc. However, we also need to remember to pull back and control those emotions, no matter how difficult it may be. We don't want to become like the people that caused us such great and deeply personal pain.

True, but as you can see from this thread, and the reversal of some people's opinions, is that one wrong strike and apparently Israel needs to stop.

 

[ADiTAR]

To be clear, I’m talking generally not just about this forum. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. The Israeli government has absolutely used antisemitism as an excuse to deflect criticisms In the past and currently. That was the point I was trying to make. This tactic really doesn’t serve them or anyone well in the long run. It poisons the well of any debate and prevents any kind of good faith criticism.

These protests are antisemitic. They are not criticizing Israel when they call for intifada revolution. They are not criticizing Israel when they stop and and prevent Matisyahu from performing. etc, etc.

 

[Dr. Claus]

True, but as you can see from this thread, and the reversal of some people's opinions, is that one wrong strike and apparently Israel needs to stop.

I think you may just be misunderstanding. No one here on GAF wants Israel to stop trying to eradicate Hamas. People are just concerned and want them to take a step back, reassess the situation and ensure that any future strikes and targets are hostile forces and not innocent civilians like the convoy. At least that has been my view and understanding of what Evilore, Ozriel and the others are saying. Also just a general no on any widespread, indiscriminate attacks like starvation/carpet bombings/etc. Which we know Israel isn't doing, but it has been suggested a few times in this thread as something they should have done.

To be clear, I’m talking generally not just about this forum. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. The Israeli government has absolutely used antisemitism as an excuse to deflect criticisms In the past and currently. That was the point I was trying to make. This tactic really doesn’t serve them or anyone well in the long run. It poisons the well of any debate and prevents any kind of good faith criticism.

I can't speak on before Oct 7th, however the clear antisemitism going on with many Pro-Palestine/Hamas groups is blatant and there is enough evidence to showcase that this isn't a simple deflection tactic at this point in time from what I have seen and experienced.

 

[ADiTAR]

I think you may just be misunderstanding. No one here on GAF wants Israel to stop trying to eradicate Hamas. People are just concerned and want them to take a step back, reassess the situation and ensure that any future strikes and targets are hostile forces and not innocent civilians like the convoy. At least that has been my view and understanding of what Evilore, Ozriel and the others are saying. Also just a general no on any widespread, indiscriminate attacks like starvation/carpet bombings/etc. Which we know Israel isn't doing, but it has been suggested a few times in this thread as something they should have done.

That's exactly what IDF is doing. There was a swift investigation, 2 were discharged, 3 reprimanded. Trust me, Israel knows the delicate line it's walking and is taking action to ensure nothing like this happens. Also, Israel just finished an operation in Shifa hospital where it killed I think 300 terrorists and captured like 800, not one civilian was hurt.

My mom, who's as left as you can get, who goes to a Palestinian and Israeli service every memorial day, who said from the beginning we shouldn't even enter Gaza as it won't help. Thinks we should've have let any food and fuel in until our hostages came back. So yeah, as you can see, no other tactic has worked, and Hamas is now emboldened to reject any ceasefire.

 

[Mohonky]

That's exactly what IDF is doing. There was a swift investigation, 2 were discharged, 3 reprimanded. Trust me, Israel knows the delicate line it's walking and is taking action to ensure nothing like this happens. Also, Israel just finished an operation in Shifa hospital where it killed I think 300 terrorists and captured like 800, not one civilian was hurt.

My mom, who's as left as you can get, who goes to a Palestinian and Israeli service every memorial day, who said from the beginning we shouldn't even enter Gaza as it won't help. Thinks we should've have let any food and fuel in until our hostages came back. So yeah, as you can see, no other tactic has worked, and Hamas is now emboldened to reject any ceasefire.

I mean, if you make no distinction as to who is a civilian and who is Hamas, it's pretty easy to not actually hurt any civilians.

What am I even reading here......

 

[Rentahamster]

The US has drone strIked THOUSANDS of innocents, in countrys NOT in a declared war with the US, for DECADES.

It has, and that doesn't sit well with me. What are the gains? More money for the military industrial complex and less money for Americans experiencing economic hardship. Are we materially any safer because of it?

It should be a cold day in hell before any American gets their panties twisted over a couple of trucks inadvertently hit in a hot zone.

Civilian casualties from U.S. drone strikes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Taken together, independent estimates from the non-governmental organizations New America and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism suggest that civilians made up between 7.27% to 15.47% of deaths in U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia from 2009–2016, with a broadly similar rate from 2017–2019.[7] Civilian casualties as a percentage of overall deaths were highest in Yemen and lowest in Somalia.[7]

910–2,200 civilians dead. That's more than a couple of trucks. Even a US citizen has been killed by drone strikes (albeit in an operation that also killed his father who was a major terrorist, but is that the kind of moral sacrifice we should be proud of?)

This shit happens.

It does, and war is hell. But for each civilian killed, surely multiple of their friends and family are potentially radicalized as a result? The cost of America's war on terror in time and money and American lives has not bought the peace and safety many of us thought we'd get by now.

 

[ADiTAR]

It does, and war is hell. But for each civilian killed, surely multiple of their friends and family are potentially radicalized as a result? The cost of America's war on terror in time and money and American lives has not bought the peace and safety many of us thought we'd get by now.

You don't know how many terror attacks are stopped every day.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

You don't know how many terror attacks are stopped every day.

And neither do you, and that doesn’t begin to address the how of them being stopped. The most compelling post-“war on terror” analyses I’ve seen really tend toward recommending terrorism be treated as a law enforcement/counter intelligence operation, rather than boots on the ground massive military ops. And if I were to guess, the vast majority of the terror attacks that we don’t know about which are stopped every day come from the former, not the latter.

I understand why Israel has reacted the way it has because I remember quite vividly how we all felt after 9/11. But with that experience comes some wisdom of how not to go about the response, and that wisdom is telling a lot of us that the IDF needs some course corrections immediately.

 

[ADiTAR]

And neither do you, and that doesn’t begin to address the how of them being stopped. The most compelling post-“war on terror” analyses I’ve seen really tend toward recommending terrorism be treated as a law enforcement/counter intelligence operation, rather than boots on the ground massive military ops. And if I were to guess, the vast majority of the terror attacks that we don’t know about which are stopped every day come from the former, not the latter.

I understand why Israel has reacted the way it has because I remember quite vividly how we all felt after 9/11. But with that experience comes some wisdom of how not to go about the response, and that wisdom is telling a lot of us that the IDF needs some course corrections immediately.

Mind sharing that wisdom? what kind of response IDF should be course correcting to?

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Mind sharing that wisdom? what kind of response IDF should be course correcting to?

One that involves blowing up fewer humanitarian aid workers.

 

[jason10mm]

One that involves blowing up fewer humanitarian aid workers.

Ah, so a call for the full surrender of all Hamas members, the complete disarmament of Gaza, and return of all hostages or their remains then, right?

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Ah, so a call for the full surrender of all Hamas members, the complete disarmament of Gaza, and return of all hostages or their remains then, right?

That’s completely compatible with what I said, sure.

 

[ADiTAR]

One that involves blowing up fewer humanitarian aid workers.

Will pass it on. Thanks!

 

[jason10mm]

That’s completely compatible with what I said, sure.

Ths is how I feel. Folks keep trying to take away tools the IDF can use to achieve the same end goal you folks say you want. But to the surprise of NO ONE, Hamas has to be FORCED to act, they do not respond to words, good intentions, or empty threats.

War is ugly. Even more so when it is against an enemy that has no rules and will resort to the most despicable acts imaginable. In the analysis of this conflict 100 years from now, I strongly believe Israel will be lauded for the INCREDIBLE restraint they have shown. There is really no other way to rationally look at. I can't think of ANY other country that would have responded to a 10/7 type assault with anything less than unfettered total war.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Ths is how I feel. Folks keep trying to take away tools the IDF can use to achieve the same end goal you folks say you want. But to the surprise of NO ONE, Hamas has to be FORCED to act, they do not respond to words, good intentions, or empty threats.

War is ugly. Even more so when it is against an enemy that has no rules and will resort to the most despicable acts imaginable. In the analysis of this conflict 100 years from now, I strongly believe Israel will be lauded for the INCREDIBLE restraint they have shown. There is really no other way to rationally look at. I can't think of ANY other country that would have responded to a 10/7 type assault with anything less than unfettered total war.

Like I said, I understand the reaction. I know the instinctual response, because I vividly remember having it too. But I worry that the current state is going to be a strategic net negative for Israel and its allies. Don’t get me wrong, I know who the good guys and bad guys are. Hamas needs to be eliminated, and Israel needs to be secure. But getting to there isn’t helped by a constant state of SN:AFU

 

[jason10mm]

Like I said, I understand the reaction. I know the instinctual response, because I vividly remember having it too. But I worry that the current state is going to be a strategic net negative for Israel and its allies. Don’t get me wrong, I know who the good guys and bad guys are. Hamas needs to be eliminated, and Israel needs to be secure. But getting to there isn’t helped by a constant state of SN:AFU

But in the middle east its been SSDD for CENTURIES, so Hamas had better BOHICA because its about to be FUBARed

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Continuing doing targeted strikes against enemy compounds. Minimize civilian casualties. Targeted covert operations against the heads of Hamas.

The problem is that Hamas (just like a lot of terrorists) just loves hiding among the civilian population. They can launch missiles from the hospital but "don't you dare attack the hospital" and so on. You provide them with aid, but it goes to militants that only distribute it to those. It is like with Houthi - they can shot a couple of tankers, create environmental disaster, get militants from unemployed brainwashed population but don't you dare attacking their people. You can attack this or that etc. But not this or that.

It is the same issue as led to

lost massive ground in the geopolitical tug of war with China/Russia

because unlike USA or the western world in general, neither China nor Russia care how you run the country (granted in case of Russia they don't even care about their own people anyway) as long as you support them. Try to ally yourself with cartels running Venezuela - in Russian nobody would give a damn on that, in USA you would people in the government (party, notable people etc.) arguing pro or against that. For China, Russia, Iran it is much easier as everybody will just fall in line as it is basically byzantine politics where the population is not involved in the decision making.

It is one of the reasons why we are seeing the western world gradually declining, because the democratic institutions are unable to find the balance between economy and politics right now. It is not possible to have a "high moral ground" now. And on top of that, USA has the elections this year (and a lot of other countries I believe) right now and Israel's matter is a huge political issue right now thus it is going to be a shitshow.

 

[demented waffle]

America needs to cleanse the AIPAC along with stronger FARA regulations. Our allies need to be our allies.

 

[Rentahamster]

You don't know how many terror attacks are stopped every day.

No I don't. You don't either. But I do know what the estimated civilian casualties are, and I do know what the USA has taken responsibility for. I know how much money has been spent, who's making that money, and who's not benefiting from it. I know how many American lives have been lost and how many families that loss affects.

I also know that not much has changed and some say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I also know that those with money and power tend to try to maintain the status quo to keep their access to said money and power.

 

[ADiTAR]

No I don't. You don't either. But I do know what the estimated civilian casualties are, and I do know what the USA has taken responsibility for. I know how much money has been spent, who's making that money, and who's not benefiting from it. I know how many American lives have been lost and how many families that loss affects.

I also know that not much has changed and some say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I also know that those with money and power tend to try to maintain the status quo to keep their access to said money and power.

100%. Hamas leaders are worth billions.

 

[Rentahamster]

100%. Hamas leaders are worth billions.

Yes I know this too. I know that I don't know how many terror attacks are stopped every day. I know that Hamas leaders steal all the money and live a life of luxury while the rest of the people suffer. But those points don't address what I said in my other posts. Those facts are counterpoints to a different subject, not the subject I was talking about.

 

[ADiTAR]

Yes I know this too. I know that I don't know how many terror attacks are stopped every day. I know that Hamas leaders steal all the money and live a life of luxury while the rest of the people suffer. But those points don't address what I said in my other posts. Those facts are counterpoints to a different subject, not the subject I was talking about.

I do know though. We had 2 intifadas and a lot of bombing terror attacks. After we built a wall around the West Bank, those almost stopped, and Shinbet and IDF are thwarting terror attacks daily.

You're whole conspiracy theories on money, sure, probably, don't change the fact that terrorists are a present danger and it's not only about Israel. See ISIS and Russia just two weeks ago.

 

[DaciaJC]

It wouldn't have come to that. I'm advocating for a scare tactic.

Again, easy to say things when it's not as close to you.

If it was your family, your mother burned alive, your daughter raped, and your son kidnapped, I think you would've sung a diff tune.

There's a mighty fine line between scare tactics and terrorism. If your response to criticism of the IDF killing aid workers is to act indignant that the US didn't simply let you starve Hamas, and by extension all of Gaza, into total capitulation months ago, then I and others who actually support Israel start to become concerned about how many people in her government share similar views, and how high their standards for avoiding civilian casualties truly are.

Do you understand the issue? This is not about the leftist fools who condemned Israel as the true villains in the aftermath of 10/7, it's not about the frothing anti-Semites who chant in the streets for another intifada - these people are a lost cause, they will forever hate Israel and the Jewish people. No, this is about those who back Israel's sovereign right to exist, to rescue its hostages, and to deliver justice for the atrocities committed by Hamas, because even those people may balk at continuing to send support if they have reason to believe the IDF is not doing its utmost to preserve innocent lives, no differently than if for example Ukraine's forces were to start mass shelling Russian villages as revenge for Putin's campaign of genocide. I really doubt Israel is willing to go at it entirely on its own in this mad world.

 

[Kilau]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/news/content/ar-BB1l8pd7

US looking very weak here. It’s one thing to be unhappy with the Gaza situation but with Iran there should be no space between Israel and the US.

 

[demented waffle]

nvm

 

[Ozriel]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/news/content/ar-BB1l8pd7

US looking very weak here. It’s one thing to be unhappy with the Gaza situation but with Iran there should be no space between Israel and the US.

Wut?
This was a sensible line of action. No point in having your ally drag you into a war you certainly don’t need, and up front engagement to prevent American casualties is fine.

The U.S. should be laser focused on helping Ukraine…not throwing Russia and China a giant bone by getting into a war with Iran.

 

[Clear]

One that involves blowing up fewer humanitarian aid workers.

This is entirely normal for warfare. Its never clean and "neat". The only strange thing here is that its being publicized. Shit like this is usually buried until after victory is achieved.

Its crazy to me that here in the West we're still trying to make moral equivalencies when the forces massing in opposition to us aren't wasting a second on this stuff!

If we were in a direct conflict with a genocidal enemy (e.g. WW2) would events like this justify a ceasefire? Or would we continue to prosecute the war?

Obviously we would.

The thing is that's exactly the perspective of both Israel and Hamas/Islamist affiliates. And that really needs to be recognized and understood.

 

[kittoo]

This is entirely normal for warfare. Its never clean and "neat". The only strange thing here is that its being publicized. Shit like this is usually buried until after victory is achieved.

Its crazy to me that here in the West we're still trying to make moral equivalencies when the forces massing in opposition to us aren't wasting a second on this stuff!

If we were in a direct conflict with a genocidal enemy (e.g. WW2) would events like this justify a ceasefire? Or would we continue to prosecute the war?

Obviously we would.

The thing is that's exactly the perspective of both Israel and Hamas/Islamist affiliates. And that really needs to be recognized and understood.

I do agree that on one hand Israel has been held to an extremely high standard while on the other hand Hamas, which by their own admission is a genocidal religiously motivated terrorist organization, has somehow occupied elevated status in some people's minds.

I mean why are these libs like Mark Ruffalo (and many other Hollywood dumbasses, some jews included) pressuring Israel for ceasefire? Hamas is the one that has rejected every proposal till now. And what about the Hostages? Should we just forget about it? What are these idiots smoking?

At the same time, Israel is losing the narrative game and having Netanyahu at top doesn't help that.

 

[Clear]

I'm just trying to stress the emotional reality of the conflict for those involved, because to be honest I feel its gross for any of us looking in from the outside to clutch our pearls too firmly.

Especially when it comes to any sort of ceasefire, who do they propose to sit in-between and mediate peace when both sides have unshakeable reasons to annihilate the other? This is the bottom line; without enforcement and the sacrifice of those people (sure to be hated by both sides) this isn't going to stop, and even with forcible peace-keeping is it really going to end when the feud has been burning so long and so much blood has been shed?

Its an ugly situation and I see no clean solution no matter what.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

This is entirely normal for warfare. Its never clean and "neat". The only strange thing here is that its being publicized. Shit like this is usually buried until after victory is achieved.

Its crazy to me that here in the West we're still trying to make moral equivalencies when the forces massing in opposition to us aren't wasting a second on this stuff!

If we were in a direct conflict with a genocidal enemy (e.g. WW2) would events like this justify a ceasefire? Or would we continue to prosecute the war?

Obviously we would.

The thing is that's exactly the perspective of both Israel and Hamas/Islamist affiliates. And that really needs to be recognized and understood.

I’m not advocating for a cease fire or making moral equivalences. Notice I said blowing up “fewer” humanitarian aid workers, I’m not expecting perfection here because I do know war is messy. But obviously this instance was an especially egregious fuck up as the IDF has seen fit to relieve people of their duties over it.

 

[Clear]

I’m not advocating for a cease fire or making morale equivalences. Notice I said blowing up “fewer” humanitarian aid workers, I’m not expecting perfection here because I do know war is messy. But obviously this instance was an especially egregious fuck up as the IDF has seen fit to relieve people of their duties over it.

Not saying you were, just making a general comment on the weird way this conflict is being covered, and how this specific tragedy is being leveraged politically.

 

[near]

Especially when it comes to any sort of ceasefire, who do they propose to sit in-between and mediate peace when both sides have unshakeable reasons to annihilate the other? This is the bottom line; without enforcement and the sacrifice of those people (sure to be hated by both sides) this isn't going to stop, and even with forcible peace-keeping is it really going to end when the feud has been burning so long and so much blood has been shed?

This is precisely why a ceasefire should be on the table, and why the concept of one has been apparent throughout history. Why on earth do we need the United Nations if they're selective in their peacekeeping efforts? What do we need international law for if we simply allow violence at large scales to exist? It is obligatory upon them to make an effort between parties to discuss a ceasefire for a variety of reasons. In this case, it is required to stop the war in order to provide humanitarian aid. If it cannot be achieved, it can be imposed, because they have that power. Just because we see no end to the 'feud' as you call it, it does not mean other nations just spectate. A ceasefire is not something the Israelis want, it is favourable to Hamas, but it is something that is required for the civilians who are caught in between. It is ultimately a tough pill to swallow, but a necessity in my opinion. It's a short term solution, which is better than nothing.

 

[jason10mm]

This is precisely why a ceasefire should be on the table, and why the concept of one has been apparent throughout history. Why on earth do we need the United Nations if they're selective in their peacekeeping efforts? What do we need international law for if we simply allow violence at large scales to exist? It is obligatory upon them to make an effort between parties to discuss a ceasefire for a variety of reasons. In this case, it is required to stop the war in order to provide humanitarian aid. If it cannot be achieved, it can be imposed, because they have that power. Just because we see no end to the 'feud' as you call it, it does not mean other nations just spectate. A ceasefire is not something the Israelis want, it is favourable to Hamas, but it is something that is required for the civilians who are caught in between. It is ultimately a tough pill to swallow, but a necessity in my opinion. It's a short term solution, which is better than nothing.

The UN has little to no authority and virtually no ability to exercise what little authority the DO have. There is really no UN military force, they gotta go hat in hand to countries and beg for peacekeepers. And I just can't see anyone agreeing to send their men into Gaza to "keep the peace". Within 2-3 days Hamas would have committed some atrocities on them and then THAT nation would be calling for extreme measures.

Once Hamas is well and truly exterminated and Israel has rounded up the leadership hiding in their luxury penthouses in Quatar, wouldn't surprise me if the UN then tries to wag their dick to be in charge of the rebuilding of Gaza, or whatever portion of it Israel deems sufficient to house that population. But who will be boots on the ground there? The US? Saudi Arabia? Egypt or Jordan? Seems unlikely because the first time some Gazans launch a few unguided rockets over at Israel again that peacekeeping force is gonna be held accountable.

 

[Clear]

This is precisely why a ceasefire should be on the table, and why the concept of one has been apparent throughout history. Why on earth do we need the United Nations if they're selective in their peacekeeping efforts? What do we need international law for if we simply allow violence at large scales to exist? It is obligatory upon them to make an effort between parties to discuss a ceasefire for a variety of reasons. In this case, it is required to stop the war in order to provide humanitarian aid. If it cannot be achieved, it can be imposed, because they have that power. Just because we see no end to the 'feud' as you call it, it does not mean other nations just spectate. A ceasefire is not something the Israelis want, it is favourable to Hamas, but it is something that is required for the civilians who are caught in between. It is ultimately a tough pill to swallow, but a necessity in my opinion. It's a short term solution, which is better than nothing.

I'm skeptical sorry, seems like its a perfect example of the generally ineffectual nature of the UN.

Also, I don't see much win in turning a bilateral conflict into a trilateral one.

 

[near]

The UN has little to no authority and virtually no ability to exercise what little authority the DO have. There is really no UN military force, they gotta go hat in hand to countries and beg for peacekeepers. And I just can't see anyone agreeing to send their men into Gaza to "keep the peace". Within 2-3 days Hamas would have committed some atrocities on them and then THAT nation would be calling for extreme measures.

Once Hamas is well and truly exterminated and Israel has rounded up the leadership hiding in their luxury penthouses in Quatar, wouldn't surprise me if the UN then tries to wag their dick to be in charge of the rebuilding of Gaza, or whatever portion of it Israel deems sufficient to house that population. But who will be boots on the ground there? The US? Saudi Arabia? Egypt or Jordan? Seems unlikely because the first time some Gazans launch a few unguided rockets over at Israel again that peacekeeping force is gonna be held accountable.

Considering Israel will never agree to a permanent ceasefire, there would be no need for third party military personnel to enter the war zone, at least as things stand. Some form of an agreement could just include a partial hostage release and a temporary ceasefire to allow aid infrastructure to be rebuilt. This would be actual progress. I don't know how the UN Security Council functions, I don't think it's a straight forward process to intervene in wars to begin with. But when I say that they can impose a ceasefire because they have the power to do so, I'm not strictly talking about military enforcement, but through sanctions that force one's hand.