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[Woggleman]

Every person in right mind can see there is no fucking way in apocalypse you can create vaccine, do tested trials and then distribute to all people to “save humanity”. This is big fucking task even fir full functioning government, let alone small group of rebels.

This I agree with. Even if it worked perfectly this is a global outbreak and distributing a cure worldwide when there are not even working planes anymore is next to impossible.

That being said I do not believe the fireflies are evil for hoping against all hope that something could save the world. Neither them nor Joel are evil and I think many people have an issue with a story that asks more questions than it answers. Even if the cure only worked in North America it would make life a whole lot better for many people and they could get on the radio and share with the rest of the world how to do it themselves. It would be a start that could blossom.

On the other hand no parent in their right mind would let their child be used as a guinea pig for what is essentially a crap shoot.

Also in the real world people do brain surgery all the time without harming the patient so why didn't they at least try to do the same with Ellie and just extract some of the fungus without taking out her brain?

 

[FunkMiller]

Every person in right mind can see there is no fucking way in apocalypse you can create vaccine, do tested trials and then distribute to all people to “save humanity”. This is big fucking task even for full functioning government, let alone small group of rebels.

Well, everyone in their right mind knows a tiny fungus that's been around for millions of years, can't just suddenly mutate into something that creates human zombies - but you suspend your disbelief for the sake of enjoying the story.

 

[DForce]

Every person in right mind can see there is no fucking way in apocalypse you can create vaccine, do tested trials and then distribute to all people to “save humanity”. This is big fucking task even for full functioning government, let alone small group of rebels.

I'm sure most people are aware that it would be impossible in the real world, but we're talking about the fictional story.

What is the story? In the story, they were going to create a cure and Joel stopped them.

 

[Danjin44]

I'm sure most people are aware that it would be impossible in the real world, but we're talking about the fictional story.

What is the story? In the story, they were going to create a cure and Joel stopped them.

The game and TV show is trying to be grounded, it’s not trying be high fantasy, they showed me noting that makes me convinced this is even remotely possible.

There is so much you can do suspension of disbelief.

 

[Lasha]

I'm sure most people are aware that it would be impossible in the real world, but we're talking about the fictional story.

What is the story? In the story, they were going to create a cure and Joel stopped them.

Yeah. The ending has zero impact if there is no plausible path to a cure for infection. Joel's choice has meaning precisely because it may be condemning humanity. Without a cure, the ending becomes a repeat of the cannibals except this time Ellie is going to be used for parts instead of food. Just a simple good guy vs bad guy hero plot.

 

[Ulysses 31]

I certainly think they are desperate, poorly trained and equipped, and not particularly well organised. But what they intend to do with Ellie is the right thing for them, and everybody else. Marlene also knows Ellie far better than Joel does, so I'm willing to accept the fact she knows Ellie would agree to be sacrificed - which is of course how Ellie is depicted in the game. And her moment of weakness is definitely in not killing Joel. That doomed all of them.\

Sure, they might think they know what Ellie would've chosen but was the harm in getting confirmation? Assuming consent when it comes to life and death matters when there's enough opportunity for confirmation? Yeah, without anything in the story requiring the surgery asap the Fireflies really were acting immoral.

Considering the Fireflies rush to surgery without bothering to inform Ellie suggests to me they also might have no reservations in using the vaccine in questionable ways once they have it.

But then, the ending of The Last Of Us is deliberately written as a tragedy. A very good one. One where the central protagonist is motivated by his selfish love of his de facto daughter. He dooms everyone, but for understandable reasons to him. That's why I love the game and show so much. It's a perfect ending.

I want to think the story's written in a way for there to be a moral quandary and complexity to Joel's decision but when you scrutinize what's known and shown of the Flireflies, the story becomes morally simple about a father protecting a daughter from some obvious bad guys which I doubt is what the writers had in mind.

 

[DForce]

The game and TV show is trying to be grounded, it’s not trying be high fantasy, they showed me noting that makes me convinced this is even remotely possible.

There is so much you can do suspension of disbelief.

They have infected. It's not completely realistic. If the story wanted you to question the doctor's decision, then it would have been brought up and the second game wouldn't lead back to the fireflies.

 

[Woggleman]

If Joel never met Ellie and Marlene was telling about some girl he never met that could produce a cure but it would kill her Joel would advise her to do it. He would no problem whatsoever with it if it wasn't his surrogate daughter. It's the same way that Jerry would have never let Abby be used the same way and Abby would never let Lev be used like that. The whole series shows humans as the complicated and messy beings we are.

 

[DragoonKain]

We can nitpick a million things. The doctors didn't hear the shootout in the hallways?

They only sent two guards with Joel when Marlene knows how brutal he is? She would've killed him on the spot, she knew he'd come for revenge sooner or later. She's not stupid.

Not to mention all the other stuff about the show.

I don't mind the small stuff. I mind when they ruin characters. *Cough* TLOU2 *Cough*

 

[DForce]

Yeah. The ending has zero impact if there is no plausible path to a cure for infection. Joel's choice has meaning precisely because it may be condemning humanity. Without a cure, the ending becomes a repeat of the cannibals except this time Ellie is going to be used for parts instead of food. Just a simple good guy vs bad guy hero plot.

Yes, the series revolves around Ellie and her immunity. There would be no point in having it if meant absolutely nothing. It's held on something as sacred in Part II and I don't see them dropping it in Part III.

 

[Danjin44]

They have infected. It's not completely realistic. If the story wanted you to question the doctor's decision, then it would have been brought up and the second game wouldn't lead back to the fireflies.

I give you example: Nier also takes place in our world that also suffered from pandemic but hey showed they improve their technology in order to make Gestalt project possible, is it realistic? no but they showed their way.....Even with all that they still failed miserably.

TLOU in other hand showed nothing about having some kind of advance tech or solution in order create vaccine and distributed to entire world with little to no resource.

Show me solution, realistic or not, show me something.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Every person in right mind can see there is no fucking way in apocalypse you can create vaccine, do tested trials and then distribute to all people to “save humanity”. This is big fucking task even for full functioning government, let alone small group of rebels.

Bro who thinks the Fireflies were going to do three phases of clinical trials and all lol. But the earliest vaccines did not have any computers or advanced scientific equipment involved, just infecting orphan boys used as immunity donors (and yes history is sad)

Orphan Vaccines

When the global vaccine supply chain depended on children.

www.sciencehistory.org

 

[Lasha]

Bro who thinks the Fireflies were going to do three phases of clinical trials and all lol. But the earliest vaccines did not have any computers or advanced scientific equipment involved, just orphan boys used as immunity donors (and yes history is sad)

Orphan Vaccines

When the global vaccine supply chain depended on children.

www.sciencehistory.org

I genuinely wonder why so many people say they enjoy the game for the depth of its plot then get bogged down into debating the nuances of virology. It's so weird.

TLOU was about the relationship of Ellie and Joel. Everything else are plot devices. Ellie is immune in spite of our knowledge about bacterial infections because the story said so. The fireflies have a mechanism to transfer Ellie's immunity to others because the story said so. The story collapses if you tug those threads too much.

 

[Ulysses 31]

I genuinely wonder why so many people say they enjoy the game for the depth of its plot then get bogged down into debating the nuances of virology. It's so weird.

TLOU was about the relationship of Ellie and Joel. Everything else are plot devices. Ellie is immune in spite of our knowledge about bacterial infections because the story said so. The fireflies have a mechanism to transfer Ellie's immunity to others because the story said so. The story collapses if you tug those threads too much.

Nah, things also need to be built up or set up. Just saying it's so doesn't make for convincing story telling.

 

[FunkMiller]

Yeah. The ending has zero impact if there is no plausible path to a cure for infection. Joel's choice has meaning precisely because it may be condemning humanity. Without a cure, the ending becomes a repeat of the cannibals except this time Ellie is going to be used for parts instead of food. Just a simple good guy vs bad guy hero plot.

Exactly. Both game and show clearly set out that Ellie's death is a necessary sacrifice for the world to live.

I know a lot of people don't want to admit that Joel is a monster - to anyone other than to himself and themselves - but in the context of the story, he is one. He puts his own selfish desires to save his de facto daughter ahead of the whole human race. It's perfectly understandable that he does it. But it's still a monstrous act, taken from an objective standpoint.

 

[anothertech]

"I swear."

Ya bitch!!

Exactly. Both game and show clearly set out that Ellie's death is a necessary sacrifice for the world to live.

I know a lot of people don't want to admit that Joel is a monster - to anyone other than to himself and themselves - but in the context of the story, he is one. He puts his own selfish desires to save his de facto daughter ahead of the whole human race. It's perfectly understandable that he does it. But it's still a monstrous act, taken from an objective standpoint.

Actually, this is an ethics question. He's a monster for possibly harming the human race. They are monsters for possibly taking a human life in vain.

There's no right answer. We don't have facts that the killing of Ellie would have amounted to anything but death. We also don't know that saving her doomed the human race. Many would argue the mere chance makes it worth it, but not to a parent.

The fact many agree he did the right thing shows you a parents modus for protecting their children

Placing your bets on a 'chance' is a huge discussion when it comes to taking human life. How much chance is worth it? 10%? 50%? Many would argue any chance is enough, until it's their own life or child.

 

[Danjin44]

Bro who thinks the Fireflies were going to do three phases of clinical trials and all lol. But the earliest vaccines did not have any computers or advanced scientific equipment involved, just orphan boys used as immunity donors (and yes history is sad)

http://[URL]https://www.sciencehistory.org/distillations/podcast/orphan-vaccines

[/URL]

The scale of pandemic in TLOU MUCH bigger and apocalypse already happened, even go as far as say it too fucking late for vaccine at this point.

I genuinely wonder why so many people say they enjoy the game for the depth of its plot then get bogged down into debating the nuances of virology. It's so weird.

TLOU was about the relationship of Ellie and Joel. Everything else are plot devices. Ellie is immune in spite of our knowledge about bacterial infections because the story said so. The fireflies have a mechanism to transfer Ellie's immunity to others because the story said so. The story collapses if you tug those threads too much.

Because the game is trying to tell me what Joel did is wrong without showing anything that would make me believe that. Based on everything I saw through the game what Joel did is what any sane person would do, while Firefleis are bunch of psychos who will kill little girl for their fantasy dream.

 

[LordOfChaos]

The scale of pandemic in TLOU MUCH bigger and apocalypse already happened, even go as far as say it too fucking late for vaccine at this point.

But that's just more against your point though, they're desperate, they're not going to do much testing or anything, if it gives their small group alone an edge they'd probably be satisfied. It wasn't going to end in a global immune drive, but maybe that's what Ellie was naively led to believe so they could use her.

 

[Guilty_AI]

The scale of pandemic in TLOU MUCH bigger and apocalypse already happened, even go as far as say it too fucking late for vaccine at this point.

Because the game is trying to tell me what Joel did is wrong without showing anything that would make me believe that. Based on everything I saw through the game what Joel did is what any sane person would do, while Firefleis are bunch of psychos who will kill little girl for their fantasy dream.

And funny this would actually do for a fine nuanced conclusion, where spectators draw their own conclusion.
The problem really is the story trying so hard to push onto us the idea Joel == Bad guy / Fireflies == heroes. Its quite noticeable in part 2.

 

[FunkMiller]

Actually, this is an ethics question. He's a monster for possibly harming the human race. They are monsters for possibly taking a human life in vain.

There's no right answer. We don't have facts that the killing of Ellie would have amounted to anything but death. We also don't know that saving her doomed the human race. Many would argue the mere chance makes it worth it, but not to a parent.

The fact many agree he did the right thing shows you a parents modus for protecting their children

Which, of course, is why the ending of the game - and now the show, is so brilliant. It's incredibly ambiguous.

 

[Danjin44]

But that's just more against your point though, they're desperate, they're not going to do much testing or anything, if it gives their small group alone an edge they'd probably be satisfied. It wasn't going to end in a global immune drive, but maybe that's what Ellie was naively led to believe so they could use her.

I can believe they were severely desperate to do anything, no different than David and his group willing to eat people to survive.

Which makes even less convinced what Joel did was wrong. No one should let person they love die for sake of unrealistic dream, Ellie would literally die for nothing.

 

[Lasha]

The scale of pandemic in TLOU MUCH bigger and apocalypse already happened, even go as far as say it too fucking late for vaccine at this point.

Because the game is trying to tell me what Joel did is wrong without showing anything that would make me believe that. Based on everything I saw through the game what Joel did is what any sane person would do, while Firefleis are bunch of psychos who will kill little girl for their fantasy dream.

The game isn't trying to tell you anything. Joel's choice is correct based on the story told by the game while also being morally ambiguous to evil since it was ultimately selfish. The trope goes all the way back to the bible when God asks Moses to sacrifice his son without any guarantees. If you don't accept that a vaccine could have been made then you must think the entire game is based around that belief.

 

[FunkMiller]

I can believe they were severely desperate to do anything, no different than David and his group willing to eat people to survive.

Which makes even less convinced what Joel did was wrong. No one should let person they love die for sake of unrealistic dream, Ellie would literally die for nothing.

Where are you getting this? Where in The Last Of Us is it ever made out that the vaccine is unrealistic?

 

[Ulysses 31]

Exactly. Both game and show clearly set out that Ellie's death is a necessary sacrifice for the world to live.

But what makes you so convinced the Fireflies could've pulled it off? Their word is just about the only thing they're shown to have and that doesn't hold much stock with me when you see the state they're in and the immoral practices they engage in.

I know a lot of people don't want to admit that Joel is a monster - to anyone other than to himself and themselves - but in the context of the story, he is one. He puts his own selfish desires to save his de facto daughter ahead of the whole human race. It's perfectly understandable that he does it. But it's still a monstrous act, taken from an objective standpoint.

Only if there was a high enough chance of a vaccine being developed and distributed to enough people to make a difference.

 

[Woggleman]

Why can't people just realize that almost everybody in this series are various shades of grey instead of monsters or angels?

 

[FunkMiller]

But what makes you so convinced the Fireflies could've pulled it off? Their word is just about the only thing they're shown to have and that doesn't hold much stock with me when you see the state they're in and the immoral practices they engage in.
Only if there was a high enough chance of a vaccine being developed and distributed to enough people to make a difference.

So basically, you're happy to disregard anything Marlene says as being a lie, because it makes it easier for you to agree with Joel's actions?

 

[Danjin44]

The game isn't trying to tell you anything. Joel's choice is correct based on the story told by the game while also being morally ambiguous to evil since it was ultimately selfish. The trope goes all the way back to the bible when God asks Moses to sacrifice his son without any guarantees. If you don't accept that a vaccine could have been made then you must think the entire game is based around that belief.

What NieR did end of that game was selfish because in that game it was 100% possible to save little humanity left if he didn’t kill the shadow lord, with Fireflies I would say there is no chance. In fact in TLOU world the human can still easily survive and thrive even without a vaccine.

Where are you getting this? Where in The Last Of Us is it ever made out that the vaccine is unrealistic?

The game showed me nothing how is even possible with little man power and resource they had, also it just not about creating vaccines but also distributing it to entire world to save society which again it’s no way possible with small groups fireflies.

 

[DragoonKain]

Chatting a little bit on social media today… man there are some people out there fanatically loyal to TLOU2. I guess that can be said about any major gaming franchise, but the fans of that series seem insanely loyal to it where they can’t even accept that people just don’t like it. I don’t care who likes the damn game. If you loved it, I’m happy for you. Everyone likes their own things.

I think the Abby discourse poisoned the well. You can’t criticize the game without people assuming you have some type of weird agenda against Abby. Honestly, Abby isn’t even in the top 10 on my list of things I disliked about the game.

 

[FunkMiller]

The game showed me nothing how is even possible with little man power and resource they had, also it just not about just creating vaccines but also distributing it to entire world to save society which again it’s no way possible with small groups fireflies.

As I said above, you seem like you're happy to disregard everything Marlene says, so you can treat Joel as being the hero.

For me, that's just so very, very dull.

The intent of the story is to leave it ambiguous - but it definitely wants you to believe that Ellie could well the cure the world needs. Otherwise, the entire ending falls apart. Joel's actions are meant to be regarded as being potentially the thing that dooms the world. He's not doing what he does because he doesn't believe Marlene - he's doing it because he wants to save Ellie more than the human race.

 

[killatopak]

Where are you getting this? Where in The Last Of Us is it ever made out that the vaccine is unrealistic?

Episode 2 intro.

 

[FunkMiller]

Chatting a little bit on social media today… man there are some people out there fanatically loyal to TLOU2. I guess that can be said about any major gaming franchise, but the fans of that series seem insanely loyal to it where they can’t even accept that people just don’t like it. I don’t care who likes the damn game. If you loved it, I’m happy for you. Everyone likes their own things.

I think the Abby discourse poisoned the well. You can’t criticize the game without people assuming you have some type of weird agenda against Abby. Honestly, Abby isn’t even in the top 10 on my list of things I disliked about the game.

TLOU2's problem is that it takes a sledgehammer approach, whereas the first game is a lot more nuanced. All the ambiguity is lost in favour of a rather cliched revenge story, and some very heavy handed moralising about 'who the real bad guys are'.

I firmly believe Bruce Straley's departure caused this change in narrative style. Druckmann is good... but subtlety is clearly not his strong suit. The actual story is fine... but the execution needed some work.

 

[FunkMiller]

Episode 2 intro.

To Joel.

There's no indication that he doesn't accept and believe what Marlene has told him about Ellie being the cure. That's all that matters, if we're discussing Joel's motivations.

 

[Woggleman]

Chatting a little bit on social media today… man there are some people out there fanatically loyal to TLOU2. I guess that can be said about any major gaming franchise, but the fans of that series seem insanely loyal to it where they can’t even accept that people just don’t like it. I don’t care who likes the damn game. If you loved it, I’m happy for you. Everyone likes their own things.

I think the Abby discourse poisoned the well. You can’t criticize the game without people assuming you have some type of weird agenda against Abby. Honestly, Abby isn’t even in the top 10 on my list of things I disliked about the game.

True but it's just the counterpoint to how many people were acting like ND committed some crime against humanity by even making the game.

 

[Beastclaw Raider]

In the episode 9 podcast Neil shared something, which was obvious but people are still debating and/or clueless about it. They did a playtest for the game and asked a bunch of questions, the last one was do you agree with what Joel did...

If the player wasnt a parent, it was 50/50 agreeing/not agreeing
If the player was a parent, it was 100% agreeing with Joel

So much for a debate...

 

[Ulysses 31]

So basically, you're happy to disregard anything Marlene says as being a lie, because it makes it easier for you to agree with Joel's actions?

What are you talking about exactly? That she says it's what Ellie would've wanted? No, I can assume she really believes what she's saying. But that doesn't really matter when they have the opportunity to ask Ellie directly. That they don't care to ask suggests to me they don't really care what Ellie thinks.

From what I see, Ellie is going to be murdered for a cause that has little hope so in that regard I do agree with Joel. But even if the Fireflies were shown as very technologically and medically competent, I'd still think they'd be behaving immorally for doing the surgery without informed consent.

 

[Danjin44]

The intent of the story is to leave it ambiguous - but it definitely wants you to believe that Ellie could well the cure the world needs. Otherwise, the entire ending falls apart. Joel's actions are meant to be regarded as being potentially the thing that dooms the world. He's not doing what he does because he doesn't believe Marlene - he's doing it because he wants to save Ellie more than the human race.

Except the sequel showed that was not the case and people still living and thriving. In fact what sequel showed me the bigger danger was human agains themselves rather than the infection.

In NieR with saw with Automata humans gone completely extinct because of NieR’s actions.

 

[DragoonKain]

TLOU2's problem is that it takes a sledgehammer approach, whereas the first game is a lot more nuanced. All the ambiguity is lost in favour of a rather cliched revenge story, and some very heavy handed moralising about 'who the real bad guys are'.

I firmly believe Bruce Straley's departure caused this change in narrative style. Druckmann is good... but subtlety is clearly not his strong suit. The actual story is fine... but the execution needed some work.

I only played the game once so I forget… did TLOU2 even have any vaccine talk? If there was I don’t remember it, so it must not have been a big part. As long as Ellie is alive, that should always be front and center. She’s like the most unique person in the world. How could that take a back seat to revenge?

 

[FunkMiller]

What are you talking about exactly? That she says it's what Ellie would've wanted? No, I can assume she really believes what she's saying. But that doesn't really matter when they have the opportunity to ask Ellie directly. That they don't care to ask suggests to me they don't really care what Ellie thinks.

From what I see, Ellie is going to be murdered for a cause that has little hope so in that regard I do agree with Joel. But even if the Fireflies were shown as very technologically and medically competent, I'd still think they're behaving immorally for doing the surgery without informed consent.

None of this justifies Joel's rampage though, does it? He gets told by Marlene that Ellie is the cure, and kills everybody to rescue her, knowing what the consequences of this will be. No, the Fireflies aren't whiter than white, but their cause is just. Joel's... isn't. To anyone but himself.

 

[FunkMiller]

I only played the game once so I forget… did TLOU2 even have any vaccine talk? If there was I don’t remember it, so it must not have been a big part. As long as Ellie is alive, that should always be front and center. She’s like the most unique person in the world. How could that take a back seat to revenge?

Not much. Which I found weird, myself. Certainly not in the present day story of Ellie Vs Abbie.

Mind you, I'm convinced the big twist coming in the third game is that she's not really 'immune' at all, and that she just carries a different type of cordyceps that anyone can breathe in, which prevents the 'bad' kind from infecting them.

 

[DForce]

In the episode 9 podcast Neil shared something, which was obvious but people are still debating and/or clueless about it. They did a playtest for the game and asked a bunch of questions, the last one was do you agree with what Joel did...

If the player wasnt a parent, it was 50/50 agreeing/not agreeing
If the player was a parent, it was 100% agreeing with Joel

So much for a debate...

What does it prove?

It's meant to be morally ambiguous.

Spoiler: TLOU2

The end ending of The Last of Us Part II doubles down on this point as Joel said he would do it all over again. I'm sure just about everyone is happy that he said it and it goes in line with Joel's character.

I'm watching reaction videos and most people agree with Joel did, but most of them didn't like the fact that he lied to Ellie.

I agree that Joel made the right choice, but it was a selfish one because he didn't want Ellie to make her own decision.

 

[DragoonKain]

In the episode 9 podcast Neil shared something, which was obvious but people are still debating and/or clueless about it. They did a playtest for the game and asked a bunch of questions, the last one was do you agree with what Joel did...

If the player wasnt a parent, it was 50/50 agreeing/not agreeing
If the player was a parent, it was 100% agreeing with Joel

So much for a debate...

The best part of the game is it challenges you on what makes a human being good or bad. Is Joel good or is Joel bad? In a post apocalyptic world,what constitutes good and evil is a sliding scale. Societal norms break down and you have to behave differently to survive. Joel does have good in him, but does bad things. What does that make him? Good or bad? I think the answer is neither or both. Which is why I love it. It doesn’t paint characters in tiny little boxes. And morality varies from person to person.

 

[FunkMiller]

The best part of the game is it challenges you on what makes a human being good or bad. Is Joel good or is Joel bad? In a post apocalyptic world,what constitutes good and evil is a sliding scale. Societal norms break down and you have to behave differently to survive. Joel does have good in him, but does bad things. What does that make him? Good or bad? I think the answer is neither or both. Which is why I love it. It doesn’t paint characters in tiny little boxes. And morality varies from person to person.

All of that also applies to Abby, of course!

 

[DragoonKain]

All of that also applies to Abby, of course!

I personally Never knocked Abby for wanting revenge or Ellie for wanting revenge for the revenge.

I knocked the creators for making the story about that lol.

 

[Ulysses 31]

None of this justifies Joel's rampage though, does it? He gets told by Marlene that Ellie is the cure, and kills everybody to rescue her, knowing what the consequences of this will be. No, the Fireflies aren't whiter than white, but their cause is just. Joel's... isn't. To anyone but himself.

Killing in self defence or in defence of another generally is justified and I think it is in this case too. The Fireflies were the ones who took away choice first when they forcefully separated Joel and Ellie and when they wouldn't delay the surgery.

So again, what makes you think the Fireflies could've pulled off "saving millions" if they could've done the surgery? Marlene or Jerry saying so isn't that convincing to me.

 

[Beastclaw Raider]

The best part of the game is it challenges you on what makes a human being good or bad. Is Joel good or is Joel bad? In a post apocalyptic world,what constitutes good and evil is a sliding scale. Societal norms break down and you have to behave differently to survive. Joel does have good in him, but does bad things. What does that make him? Good or bad? I think the answer is neither or both. Which is why I love it. It doesn’t paint characters in tiny little boxes. And morality varies from person to person.

It's a lot of questions and themes, like how far would you go to protect and save someone you love? Would you go as far as destroying yourself? Because that's kind of what Joel did as well. I love how they've brought it up in the podcast by saying Joel burned his own soul to save the person he loves.

 

[FunkMiller]

I personally Never knocked Abby for wanting revenge or Ellie for wanting revenge for the revenge.

I knocked the creators for making the story about that lol.

Yeah, I agree with that. As a revenge story it's fine. Very well done, in fact. But I didn't just want a revenge story for part 2. It felt like the narrative of the sequel to a lesser game, in my opinion.

It would have been far more interesting and challenging to present us with a story where relationships develop over time. The first game succeeds so well because it's all about the relationships. Game two is all about the plot.

 

[FunkMiller]

Killing in self defence or in defence of another generally is justified and I think it is in this case too. The Fireflies were the ones who took away choice first when they forcefully separated Joel and Ellie and when wouldn't delay the surgery.

So again, what makes you think the Fireflies could've pulled off "saving millions" if they could've done the surgery? Marlene or Jerry saying so isn't that convincing to me.

It's convincing to Joel. That's all that matters.

 

[Woggleman]

Joel's actions at the end of part 1 would have had to be addressed in any sequel. No way in hell he was getting of scott free and moving on like nothing happened. PT 2 was the natural result of what happened in PT1.

 

[DragoonKain]

Yeah, I agree with that. As a revenge story it's fine. Very well done, in fact. But I didn't just want a revenge story for part 2. It felt like the narrative of the sequel to a lesser game, in my opinion.

It would have been far more interesting and challenging to present us with a story where relationships develop over time. The first game succeeds so well because it's all about the relationships. Game two is all about the plot.

I wonder if the TV show stays true to TLOU2 in season 2 and it gets a bad reception from newcomers, if it would be humbling to Druckmann at all. Similarly, I think The Witcher creators are in for a rude awakening in season 4, when Henry Cavilll leaves, that show’s ratings are going to drop off a cliff. I honestly think it’ll be the end of the series.

Imagine season 2 sticking to its guns and the ratings plummet. How would Neil Druckmann respond? An interesting sociological experiment that may play out for gamers like us who already played the game in real time.

 

[FunkMiller]

I wonder if the TV show stays true to TLOU2 in season 2 and it gets a bad reception from newcomers, if it would be humbling to Druckmann at all. Similarly, I think The Witcher creators are in for a rude awakening in season 4, when Henry Cavilll leaves, that show’s ratings are going to drop off a cliff. I honestly think it’ll be the end of the series.

Imagine season 2 sticking to its guns and the ratings plummet. How would Neil Druckmann respond? An interesting sociological experiment that may play out for gamers like us who already played the game in real time.

I fully expect seasons two and three to depart from the games a lot more than season one did, because Craig Mazin is an extremely good writer and producer, as evidenced by Chernobyl.